Anti-vaccine nuts

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Apollyon

Screw the GST
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2002
Messages
23,755
Reaction score
12,097
I made the thread title intentionally provocative.

I saw this article on nbcnews.com this evening. Quote with emphasis and commentary to follow.

NBC news article said:
Private school vaccine opt-outs rise
By Hannah Dreier, Associated Press

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Parents who send their children to private schools in California are much more likely to opt out of immunizations than their public school counterparts, an Associated Press analysis has found, and not even the recent re-emergence of whooping cough has halted the downward trajectory of vaccinations among these students.

The state surveys all schools with at least 10 kindergartners to determine how many have all the recommended immunizations. The AP analyzed that data and found the percentage of children in private schools who forego some or all vaccinations is more than two times greater than in public schools.

More troubling to public health officials is that the number of children entering private schools without all of their shots jumped by 10 percent last year, while the opt-out rate held steady in public schools for the first time since 2004.

Public health officials believe that an immunization rate of at least 90 percent in all communities, including schools, is critical to minimizing the potential for a disease outbreak. About 15 percent of the 1,650 private schools surveyed by the state failed to reach that threshold, compared with 5 percent of public schools.

There were 110 private schools statewide where more than half the kindergartners skipped some or all of their shots, according to AP's analysis, with Highland Hall Waldorf School in Northridge — where 84 percent opted out — topping the list.

Parents cite a variety of reasons for not immunizing their children, among them: religious values, concerns the shots themselves could cause illness and a belief that allowing children to get sick helps them to build a stronger immune system. Likewise, there's no single explanation that accounts for why so many more parents who send their children to private schools apparently share a suspicion of immunizations.

Saad Omer, a professor of global health at Emory University in Atlanta who has studied vaccine refusal in private schools, surmised more private school parents are wealthy and have the time to spread five shots over a series of years and stay home should their child get an illness like chickenpox. Neal Halsey, a professor of pediatric infectious diseases at the Johns Hopkins University, said parents who choose private schools are likely to be more skeptical of state requirements and recommendations.

Bibi Reber, whose children attend the Waldorf-inspired Greenwood School in Mill Valley, had her children vaccinated only for what she sees as the deadliest diseases. Greenwood has a 79 percent opt-out rate among its kindergartners.

"I don't think dirt or getting sick makes you a weak person; your immune system needs to work with things," said Reber, whose children attend the Greenwood School in the San Francisco Bay area town of Mill Valley. "We certainly don't want to go back to having polio, but on the other hand, I don't think we need to eradicate all the childhood diseases."

Public health officials say that, regardless of why parents choose not to vaccinate their children, the result is the same: an increased risk of an outbreak of whooping cough or other communicable diseases.

"We're very concerned that those schools are places where disease can spread quite rapidly through the school and into the community, should it get introduced," said Dr. Robert Schechter, medical officer with the Immunization Branch of the California Department of Public Health.

That's what prompted the Legislature to approve a bill requiring parents to discuss vaccinations with a pediatricians or a school nurse before they can opt-out. Gov. Jerry Brown has until the end of September to sign or veto it.

State Assemblyman Richard Pan, a pediatrician, who sponsored the bill, said he believes private school parents are more apt to mistakenly believe that the vaccinations themselves could be more dangerous than the diseases.

"In private school, these are people who have money, who are upper middle-class, and they are going on the Internet and seeing information and misinformation," said Pan, D-Sacramento.

Increasing immunization rates for this population is critical to controlling the outbreak of diseases, he said. "Have you ever seen a child cough themselves to death? It's not pleasant," he said.

Those who choose not to vaccinate their children see the legislation as meddlesome and unnecessary.

"It's making an extra appointment and paying extra money to go in there and essentially get permission to do what I feel is right for my family," said Dawn Kelly, who sends her unvaccinated 5-year-old son and partially vaccinated 9-year-old son to Monarch Christian School in the Los Angeles area.

Like many parents who refuse some or all immunization shots, Kelly worries her children's immune system could be overwhelmed by getting too many vaccines at once.

Melani Gold Friedman, president of the parent association at Highland Hall Waldorf School, is concerned with what the legislation means for families who normally consult with acupuncturists, holistic healers or other alternative practitioners.

"The bill has an assumption that everyone's seeing one particular kind of doctor, but the people who are opting out, chances are they're not seeing that kind of doctor," she said.

Vaccination opt-out rates nationwide have been creeping up since the mid-2000s, spurred in part by the belief the battery of vaccinations routinely given to infants could lead to autism. Several major studies have discredited that idea.

Parents are allowed to forego vaccines for philosophical reasons in California and 19 other states. Of those, only Washington requires parents to consult with a physician. And, in California, there's no difference between private and public schools when it comes to what's required for parents to opt out — they simply sign a document. The state recommends that kindergarteners receive five vaccine progressions, including protections against Polio, Hepatitis B and Measles

Politicians and public health experts across the nation are focusing more attention on childhood immunizations, driven by a re-emergence of diseases like whooping cough. The U.S. is in the midst of what could be its worst year for that disease in more than five decades, with nearly 25,000 cases and 13 deaths.

After whooping cough reached epidemic levels in California in 2010, the state took action, embarking on a public information campaign and increasing the availability of vaccines. A law was passed requiring booster shots for older students.

Yet the opt-out rate continued climbing in private schools. It's more than doubled since 2004, to 2,228 kindergartners in last year's state survey. While the overall rate of full immunization among kindergarteners hovers around 91 percent, places where the opt-out rate is greater could pose a risk for outbreak.

In 2008, East Bay Waldorf School in El Sobrante closed temporarily after whooping cough sickened more than a dozen students, eight of them kindergartners. The San Francisco Bay Area school had a vaccination rate of less than 50 percent.

State health officials are tracking the divergence of opt-out rates in private and public schools, but are not planning any studies or outreach efforts targeting this pupil population. The state is conducting a general education campaign to boost vaccinate rates.

The AP analysis found 20 of the 25 California private schools with the highest opt-out rates are "Waldorf schools," a loose association of institutions founded on the teachings of 19th-century philosopher Rudolf Steiner. He favored a holistic approach to education and medicine and thought childhood illnesses could be beneficial.

Officials at these schools would not comment about Pan's bill but say they trust parents to make the best decisions for their children's health.

"Parents who are brave enough to say, 'No, that's not the right thing,' should be supported," said Patrice Maynard, spokeswoman for the Association of Waldorf Schools of North America.

These anti-vaccine people are crazy. They're nuts. And the scary thing is that they are NOT uneducated rednecks. What they ARE, though are people that have never seen a kid go blind or deaf from measles, never seen a boy become sterile because of mumps, have never seen a case of congenital rubella, and have not seen someone die from meningococcal meningitis or die or become brain damaged from varicella encephalitis. The pediatrician/legislator in the article says, "Have you ever seen a child cough themselves to death? It's not pleasant."

I am predicting that some anti-vaccine loon is going to swoop in here, and paint us all with the same brush, calling US uninformed and not respecting their autonomy. I shall take the moment to ask, starkly, though, "do you beat your children?" For, if these anti-vaccine nuts say "NO! I would not do such a vile thing!", my answer is "why would you torture your children worse by letting them get a disease that could easily be prevented?" And they'll say, "It's not the same!", and I shall respond "It is exactly the same. Children deserve a safe home in which to grow up. Infectious disease or macro violence are both impediments to that".

And, if someone brings up the "vaccines cause autism" argument, they immediately show their hand as one of two things: uninformed, or crazy, nutty conspiracy freaks. It IS that simple.

And, fine - send your kids to private school, since they can't go to public school because they are public health hazards. Then, when, at private school, they catch something virulent, and an outbreak starts, and the school is quarantined or closed down due to the epidemic, I won't say anything, but I WILL be thinking that you are a rank idiot for risking your child(ren).

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
These people can only live in their fantasy world because herd immunity works pretty dam well (granted these people probably have no idea what the hell that means).
 
These people can only live in their fantasy world because herd immunity works pretty dam well (granted these people probably have no idea what the hell that means).

Except when it doesn't, because the percentage has gone down below 95 or 85 or 75, depending on the disease.

Fantasy and reality clash in a grating, terrifying, life-changing manner, and, except in cases of tetanus and rabies, being exposed is too late for a vaccine!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Were it not for the fact that the child gets caught in the middle, I would refuse to treat these families. If they're going to refuse the most effective medical interventions we have, what do I really have to offer them aside from my liability?
 
Is there any evidence to suggest not getting your child a flu vaccine and allowing them to get and beat the flu increases immunity strength?
 
These people can only live in their fantasy world because herd immunity works pretty dam well (granted these people probably have no idea what the hell that means).

Herd immunity only works as long as their special little snowflake of a child never moves out of its safe little otherwise-vaccinated middle-class America enclave, and as long as no-one infectious moves in.

When the teenagers/young adult offspring of these short-sighted fantasists start acting for themselves, interacting with and going out into the rest of the world, those offspring are entirely likely to end up with an unecessary illness at a time when it is devastating to them (puberty, exams, etc), when they are off their parents' insurance, or when they are out of reach of good medical care altogether.

No compunction here at calling any conspiracy nuts that show up the short-sighted freaking idiots they are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Herd immunity only works as long as their special little snowflake of a child never moves out of its safe little otherwise-vaccinated middle-class America enclave, and as long as no-one infectious moves in.

When the teenagers/young adult offspring of these short-sighted fantasists start acting for themselves, interacting with and going out into the rest of the world, those offspring are entirely likely to end up with an unecessary illness at a time when it is devastating to them (puberty, exams, etc), when they are off their parents' insurance, or when they are out of reach of good medical care altogether.

No compunction here at calling any conspiracy nuts that show up the short-sighted freaking idiots they are.

Actually, they're not just endangering their own kids. A vaccinated child in a non-vaccinated cohort actually has a higher chance of becoming infected than a non-vaccinated child in a vaccinated cohort. So living near a high concentration of deluded hippies isn't just a risk factor for your kids developing poor grooming habits and overpaying for "organic" grocery staples. It could also kill them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Is there any evidence to suggest not getting your child a flu vaccine and allowing them to get and beat the flu increases immunity strength?

why would developing immunity by suffering from the flu be different from developing immunity by getting vaccinated? The latter's risk is a lot lower honestly than the former.
 
Were it not for the fact that the child gets caught in the middle, I would refuse to treat these families. If they're going to refuse the most effective medical interventions we have, what do I really have to offer them aside from my liability?

I've known pediatricians who did exactly this. No vaccines? Discharged from practice.

Since they are not ruled by EMTALA in their offices, they are free to make this choice.

My kid's pediatrician does exactly this. He told me (he's a bit more candid with me than with regular people) that not only are these people difficult and frustrating to deal with he doesn't want to be stuck treating a highly morbid disease in a kid that he has no experience with. He said "I can do more with leukemia than with measles because I never saw measles in training." He added that he doesn't want unvaccinated kids in his waiting room because it adds morbidity to everyone to put them together. Interesting.

That said I do have some questions about the varicella vaccine. My understanding is that the risk of morbidity associated with disseminated varicella is ~8/100k and the risk of morbidity associated with the vaccine is ~2/100k. That seems like a lean difference on which to base a whole program. And what will happen when kids grow up without having had chicken pox? Does the vaccine confer life long immunity. We don't know because the vaccine hasn't been around that long. Will this increase or decrease shingles incidence or severity. Hard to say. I've given my kids the varicella vaccine but I think those are some valid questions. That and whatever Jenni McCarthy says.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Varicella is slightly different, because even if you get the virus, you aren't immune for your life. You still have the risk of shingles and shedding virus.
I would take the vaccine risk over the risk of shingles outbreaks or worse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My kid's pediatrician does exactly this. He told me (he's a bit more candid with me than with regular people) that not only are these people difficult and frustrating to deal with he doesn't want to be stuck treating a highly morbid disease in a kid that he has no experience with. He said "I can do more with leukemia than with measles because I never saw measles in training." He added that he doesn't want unvaccinated kids in his waiting room because it adds morbidity to everyone to put them together. Interesting.

Yep. In our residency clinic, if a parent refused to vaccinate, they were made to understand that whenever their kid came in for a sick visit, they would HAVE to wear a mask while in the office. They would have to sit in a separate part of the waiting room, away from newborns, pregnant patients, or any patients who might be immunocompromised. They also wouldn't be allowed to see any pregnant providers....one of my attendings, despite being vaccinated, found out that she was Rubella Non-immune during her first pregnancy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
"I don't think its necessary to eradicate every childhood disease."

These idiots want it both ways. They don't think its necessary to eradicate every childhood disease, as long as the illness is cute, and the kid can get sick and be guaranteed a safe return to health. THEN, when their child DOES get sick (deathly ill, or not deathly ill), they show up in the ED demanding that THIS and THAT be done and WHY haven't YOU (the ED doc) done X and Y and Z !

Eff you, people. You're the same ******s coming to the ED demanding pan-CTs and abx for URIs.

You wanna opt out of modern medicine ? Fine, don't show up in the ED or PCP's office when you eff it all up. Go see your faith healer, or whatever other charlatan makes you feel fuzzy. I've said it before on here, and I'll say it again: people like "white magic" because science is hard.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Speaking about varicella - my nephew got varicella at 9 days old. Septic and respiratory failure. Luckily he lived as things didn't look good for several days. After 12 days in the hospital, several of them in the PICU, he was well enough for discharge. No idea if he will have any further deficits. Horrible to see. I now advocate for vaccines on everyone. Even if they don't want to hear it.
 
My kid's pediatrician does exactly this. He told me (he's a bit more candid with me than with regular people) that not only are these people difficult and frustrating to deal with he doesn't want to be stuck treating a highly morbid disease in a kid that he has no experience with. He said "I can do more with leukemia than with measles because I never saw measles in training." He added that he doesn't want unvaccinated kids in his waiting room because it adds morbidity to everyone to put them together. Interesting.

This was our practice during residency. We had too many kids with odd stuff, some of whom couldn't receive live vaccines, so we couldn't/wouldn't deal with the idiots who refused vaccination. Plus there was a philosophy that if you're going to disagree about this topic, then we're not really going to get along.

That said I do have some questions about the varicella vaccine. My understanding is that the risk of morbidity associated with disseminated varicella is ~8/100k and the risk of morbidity associated with the vaccine is ~2/100k. That seems like a lean difference on which to base a whole program. And what will happen when kids grow up without having had chicken pox? Does the vaccine confer life long immunity. We don't know because the vaccine hasn't been around that long. Will this increase or decrease shingles incidence or severity. Hard to say. I've given my kids the varicella vaccine but I think those are some valid questions. That and whatever Jenni McCarthy says.

You also have to take into account the costs associated with illness. It's 1-2 weeks in which the kid can't go to school, so a parent or caretaker has to stay home with them. To tell the truth, I've only seen three cases of varicella (non shingles). Two were in immunocompromised patients, and one was a neonate who ended up neurologically devastated from it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You also have to take into account the costs associated with illness. It's 1-2 weeks in which the kid can't go to school, so a parent or caretaker has to stay home with them. To tell the truth, I've only seen three cases of varicella (non shingles). Two were in immunocompromised patients, and one was a neonate who ended up neurologically devastated from it.

I agree that there are costs associated with riding out the illness. I suspect that the fact that without vaccine this illness results in most school children taking a week off at some point and the resultant loss of school funding had a lot to do with the vaccine becoming required.
 
I agree that there are costs associated with riding out the illness. I suspect that the fact that without vaccine this illness results in most school children taking a week off at some point and the resultant loss of school funding had a lot to do with the vaccine becoming required.

On a related note, nearly all of the anti-vax wingnuts I know (including several in my extended family...and for the record, I live in the geographic center of anti-vax wingnutness) have one stay-at-home parent or have a FT live-in nanny so the lost wage issue doesn't really come into play for them. My wife OTOH is mostly opposed to "Western" medicine but agreed to vaccinations for our daughter. After a recent 24h stomach bug that required her to stay home with our daughter for 2 days because I was on service, she agreed that, perhaps I have been right all along.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Where is the geographic center of Wingnutness? (well-put)

I had one wingnut come in today, actually. She refused to vaccinate her son at 8 months after he developed some terrible, terrible autism (as she put it: "severe autism") after being vaccinated. Kid was totally communicative, engaging... a normal ten year old. Needed a tetanus shot because he stepped on a nail. Oddly, mom thought that THIS vaccination was "okay", somehow.

1) How did she establish causality between THAT particular vaccination and some degree of autism, especially at eight months of age ? (Nevermind, its clear that causality never entered her mind, just that "vaccines are bad because celebrities say so, mmkay.")

2) Does she think that there's a developmental window for autism between ages X and Y that if vaccinated during, the risk of autism is exponentially larger... and waited until AFTER said window to vaccinate her child ?

3) a;sldkfjas;ldcjpoeij *keyboard smash* as;ldkfj;lakdsj
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/jamie-and-jeffs-birth-plan
JAMIE AND JEFF'S
BIRTH PLAN.


BY PAUL WILLIAM DAVIES

- - - -
Dear Hospital Staff:

Thank you and congratulations for being on shift for the birth of our child. The following sets forth our wishes for our stay. If a medical emergency requires you to deviate from this plan, please refer to "Jamie and Jeff's Emergency Birth Plan." (Tab J) Please note: Jamie is RH Negative and BPA-free.

Philosophy

While we do not have a traditional "philosophy" of "childbirth," we have been heavily influenced by orthodox Wholefoodism and the "(d)well baby/good design" movement. We believe strongly in the power of the female body and a long-term night nurse. We are opposed to torture/gluten. In the event you are ever unsure how to proceed today, please ask yourself, "What Would Gwyneth Do?"

Environment

We would like mood lighting, like on Virgin America.

The following people, who were with us at conception, will again be in the room with us today: Jeff's mom; Jeff's sister; Jeff's sister's friend, Melanie (plus 2); Jeff Koons.

Please provide WiFi so we can check what you say against Wikipedia and our favorite mom blogs.

Music is very important to us, as music was playing in the Mongolian yurt when we first made love.

In lieu of a traditional hospital gown, Jamie would prefer to be dressed like Zooey Deschanel in 500 Days of Summer.

Please avoid any use of the words "pulsate," "soiled," or "octo" in the delivery room.

Prep

Jamie would prefer no enema or shaving of pubic hair. If shaving is necessary, she would prefer something in the shape of a vuvuzela. Jeff's pubic hair should NOT be shaved.

Jeff would like an IV.

Labor

Please generally avoid procedures that are totally unnecessary or excruciatingly painful.

Jamie would like Jeff to do the pushing whenever possible.

We have chosen a Doctor ("Mr. Cooper") because he shares our desire for a natural, low-intervention birth. Mr. Cooper will deliver the baby via Skype from his home in Taos.

If Jamie starts to sob uncontrollably during labor, please turn off The Notebook. In the event the crying continues, please administer the following drugs to Jeff (per Mr. Cooper): Darvocet, Diamorphine, Vicodin, Medical Marijuana.

If induction is necessary, Jamie would like to try the following before Pitocin is administered: walking, stretching, flipping over, rolfing, online browsing, nipple stimulation and/or sexual intercourse.

Nipple stimulation should be done by the resident Jamie met on the tour who looks like Benjamin Bratt.

Delivery

We strongly prefer a girl.

If you have not already done so, please now take a few minutes and read Early Admission: How to Deliver an Ivy League Baby!

Jeff will remain in the squatting position throughout delivery.

When the crown of the head appears, please turn down the music as Jeff will be reading aloud from Be Here Now by Ram Dass.

Please, no texting while suctioning.

Jamie would like a mirror so that she can see the horrible expression on her face if it's a boy.

IMPORTANT: if the baby appears to be black, please immediately escort Jeff out of the room and bring in Jeremy Rayburn from the 5th Floor waiting area.

In the event of a Cesarean, please practice Western medicine.

Post-Birth

We are interested in the following preschools: St. James, The Schoolhouse at Cedar Point, or Kidsplace. Willow Glen is ONLY a backup.

Jamie would like Jeff circumcised.

Please do not cut the cord until we are through the toddler years.

We would like the baby certified organic by Oregon Tilth.

Please don't put the baby on a scale, as we don't want her to have the same body image issues as her fat mom.

We would like to donate the placenta to the people of the Gulf Coast.

We ask that the baby be bathed in our presence, in the delivery room, in San Pellegrino.

Per Mr. Cooper, do not feed the baby mussels.

Per Gisele Bundchen, do not give the baby a bottle (i.e. chemicals) for at least 6 months.

If the baby must be taken from the room because of a medical emergency, we would like Jeff to accompany the child. (In this scenario, Benjamin Bratt would stay with Jamie. Please maintain mood lighting and insert the CD in Jamie's handbag labeled, WHEN JEFF LEAVES.)

We will not be vaccinating our baby. Please vaccinate all other babies on this floor.

Namaste,
Jeff and Jamie
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
That was precious!

But, I can see some folks being REALLY serious about this.
 
Isn't that an insult to crazy people?

There are two groups of people that I will talk about in a negative manner without first seeing who is in the room: anti-vaccine nuts and Scientologists.

For both of those, I don't care who is there, who hears, or anything.

But your post reminds me of the story with the climactic line of "just because I'm crazy doesn't mean I'm stupid".

I'm just the least bit disaffected that none of these insane child-abusing parents have bitten at the low-hanging fruit and signed up for SDN with the single, solitary post they'll ever have just to shriek, nearly hysterically, that we don't know anything, and that someone whose fame comes from being naked in print or acting in some entertainment venue has more authority than any 10 of us here, who, when you combine our years of schooling and training, top 250 years.

It's funny (in an ersatz sort of way) how these selfsame people, who put their faith in actors, would not allow those same actors to work as their accountants, or fly the airplanes on which they are flying for the first time. However, they freely take the advice of someone who has no idea - no education, no scholarly investigation, and has made no effort to combat that lack - about what they are saying.

I mean, I am not a pathologist, I am not a dermatologist, and and I am not any shape of an oncologist. I have 26 years of school and training, am in the 1% of the top educated people in the US, and I still know that there is MUCH I don't know, but that which I know is something at which I am very good, and, if I approach that line, I am the first to be conservative, instead of a cowboy, and say "we're near or at the edge of my knowledge and skill. Let me call someone smarter."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I had a case that was seen at urgent care and sent home with "It's just measles."

Well, it was actually staphylococcal scalded skin syndrome, and toddler got shipped to the burn center sloughing off bits here and there. But that was a couple years ago.
I'm spitting distance to Disney World, so there's always the possibility. Although here in Florida, they aren't quite as nutty as their west coast counterparts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I had a case that was seen at urgent care and sent home with "It's just measles."

Well, it was actually staphylococcal scalded skin syndrome, and toddler got shipped to the burn center sloughing off bits here and there. But that was a couple years ago.
I'm spitting distance to Disney World, so there's always the possibility. Although here in Florida, they aren't quite as nutty as their west coast counterparts.

You know it's bad when Florida can look down at you and think dumb-ss.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
You decided not to get the MMR and now you have the measles?

Hmm......

That's weird.
 
I personally think it's child abuse and their children should be removed by CPS. They are refusing PROVEN, and lifesaving treatments for their children, and in the process putting other people at risk.

Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Great, you've lost your privilege of being a parent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Little town on the West Coast...starts with 'P'.
The dream of the 90s is alive. Also the whitest city in America.

Isn't your job the absolute least compatible medical profession with your wife's beliefs? I suppose high risk OB competes there... But something about coffee enemas and megadose vitaminD...
 
Doctors such as Dr. Jack Wolfson (a cardiologist claiming to be a vaccine expert.) are making the situation even worse. His article make wonder what his real intent is
 
I personally think it's child abuse and their children should be removed by CPS. They are refusing PROVEN, and lifesaving treatments for their children, and in the process putting other people at risk.

Don't want to vaccinate your kid? Great, you've lost your privilege of being a parent.

But who would adopt those filthy, unvaccinated children? Gross.
 
There is a theory that my virology prof said was going around the community involving a relationship between measles and autism, which is exasperated by vaccines. Basically it involved the mother who was vaccinated early in life to have low antibody titers for whatever reason (vaccines aren't perfect, immunity can be lost, etc). The mother would contract the virus while being pregnant with the fetus. She may get a minor respiratory illness because of the partial immune response, but mostly nothing concerning. Meanwhile, the measles virus is going around in the fetus and makes its way to the brain. There it remains dormant in the same way it does in subacute sclerosing pan encephalitis, eg. antibodies neutralize death receptors on the cell, and the virus isn't killed off. Child is born, everything is great for a bit and then vaccine time comes around. All of a sudden you have a immune response that is renewed and you get immune activity in the brain. Young developing brains being most sensitive can be damaged quickly by the inflammation.

The main reason this theory came around is because autistic children were showing incredibly high antibody titers against measles. Non-vaccinated children that go through the same fetal experience can contract autism by exposure to a fresh measles strain once born.
 
There is a theory that my virology prof said was going around the community involving a relationship...
No, it's not. Take your passive-aggressive vaccine nonsense and troll elsewhere.

For the med students
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
What pisses me off about this anti-vaccine idiocy, is that there are enough people doing this, that they put infants not old enough for the shot yet, at health risk. You don't get MMR until, age 1. So if you have a baby < 1, your child's at risk now because of these people, while sitting in the waiting room with them. It's no wonder many pediatricians now discharge them from their clinic. I don't blame them. Vaccinating a child is the #1 thing a pediatrician will do, in the life of a child to prevent/treat illness. All the dozens of well checks and uri visits don't even come close to easily preventing a long list of diseases, some life threatening.

It's a level of non-compliance that's extremely dangerous to the person's child and others. Such a person is not likely to ever be reasoned with, or follow any other advice their physician gives.


http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...tors-refuse-to-see-unvaccinated-patients.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My kid's pediatrician does exactly this. He told me (he's a bit more candid with me than with regular people) that not only are these people difficult and frustrating to deal with he doesn't want to be stuck treating a highly morbid disease in a kid that he has no experience with. He said "I can do more with leukemia than with measles because I never saw measles in training." He added that he doesn't want unvaccinated kids in his waiting room because it adds morbidity to everyone to put them together. Interesting.

I love how candid your doctor was with you because I have wondered this. I am glad that seeing these diseases is no longer commonplace, but on the other hand how prepared does the younger generation of doctors feel diagnosing and treating these diseases when they do come across them? There's a study I'd be curious to read.
 
the issue that doesn't get addressed nearly often enough is the effect non-vaxxers have on vaccinated people by decreasing herd immunity. You don't just increase the risk of your child dying, you increase the risk for everyone around your child dying.

I think people should be able to choose to not vaccinate their children but in turn shouldn't have access to public schools, institutions, stadiums, parks, etc and if parents choose to not vaccinate they should probably lose the right to vote or own property. Maybe we could shove them all in a pen in the desert of southern california and they can run around sharing disease with each other. probably would make a good movie.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/i-dont-vaccinate-my-child-because-its-my-right-to,37839/
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I love how candid your doctor was with you because I have wondered this. I am glad that seeing these diseases is no longer commonplace, but on the other hand how prepared does the younger generation of doctors feel diagnosing and treating these diseases when they do come across them? There's a study I'd be curious to read.
Treating? I feel OK about that. Diagnosing? Very doubtful. I've even had chicken pox, but not sure I'd recognize it if I saw it again (it has been 25+ years).
 
Treating? I feel OK about that. Diagnosing? Very doubtful. I've even had chicken pox, but not sure I'd recognize it if I saw it again (it has been 25+ years).
Come on...



Yes, you would. You see the virus all the time. Same as shingles, but all over.
 
I see why outpatient docs wouldn't waste their time with anti-vaccers. You refuse to let me cure/prevent your measles, mumps, rubella, polio, varicella, pertussis, diphtheria, h. flu meningitis, strains of strep pneumonia and others. You refuse to listen to me and do that for you. Are you going to refuse antibiotics when your kid gets H. Flu sepsis/meningitis, too?

Then when I tell you your kid has a ruptured appendix and he needs surgery or has leukemia and can be cured (or die) you're likely to be just as irrational in refusal of those, too?

If those are your belief systems, you have no use for a doctor. You need to go to your naturopathic whomever, Jenny McCarthy, Doctor Oz or someone like that.

Of course, you'll throw yourself at the knees of some unfortunate and unsuspecting EM physician at 3 am on a weekend when you do get some odd ball preventable disease the doctor has never seen before and won't know how to treat or diagnoses, but that's neither here nor there.

It's an interesting world we live in. Smh
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I saw primary varicella in a 30 year old just about a week ago. It was missed on the first two visits, but I got lucky and when I saw him he had "dew drops on a rose petal" with newer lesions cropping up rostral to the older lesions, so it was pretty obvious by that point.

I applaud the pediatricians who refuse to treat families who refuse MMR/polio/tetanus/pertussis/Prevnar. I often wish I could do the same.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Just wait until Polio, H. Flu and some of the more serious ones start to break through the herd immunity. It won't take too many horrific and preventable bacterial meningitis deaths and kids paralyzed from Polio for the gig to be up on this charade and the non-physician celebrities, and celebro-doctor quacks that profit from promoting it with pseudo-science and fear mongering.

Also, I'm sure if a baby under age 1 in a family that does vaccinate, dies from encephalitis from one of these viruses from an anti-vaccer family before they could get the shot, it will not be featured on any of these physician-fraudcasters TV shows.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top