Anyone else been on a long as heck journey

[Perseverance7779311]

Hey guys, I have been on the road towards preparing to apply to med school for the past five years. At this point, I am tired as heck and am getting discouraged....If it weren't for my fiance and my mother, I dont know what the heck id do. I am now 27, and I just get so depressed when I see other people graduating from med school who graduated from undergrad after me, or at the same time. Don't get me wrong, Im happy for them, but it just reminds me of my current situation..anyone else been on a long journey towards becoming a doctor?

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[jl lin]

Well, it's been a long journey for me, but there have been many factors outside of school. In reality, for me, school was the easy part--and it wasn't always easy. I am formally at the crossroads now. It truly is now or never. I have no aspirations for neurosurgery or the like--not that there is anything wrong with that, but, even if I wanted to pursue that, it's on the greatly improbable side of things. Plus, having worked with many surgeons, and generally getting along with them quite well, I feel like there is one heck of a residency-fellowship road, and with perhaps a very few exceptions, should be started early on in life. Again, with some exceptions, it's not the kind of path for most career changers--physician wannabes. I mean they get beat up pretty badly after it's all said and done--and it is a longer, harder road that most other paths in medicine. That's part of why I give them much respect.

I guess I am wondering why you are looking at what other people are doing rather than what you are doing--i.e., what is within your locus of control? I mean there is a person I know in med school right now who could be my kid. So what? I hope the best for her. Her life track and choices were different than mine--for a number of reasons. It's not really relevant to my life. I could care less if she were a fellow training me in years to come. In fact, it'd be kind of cool. I can learn from anyone. I am open to it, so long as there are no ethical conflicts. And then again, sometimes it's about learning what not to do.

Have you applied to MS? Are you a re-applicant? I mean my situation has to do with the hoops and doing them with perfection, so I have yet to apply. At some point relatively soon, however, I will just have to jump, regardless of whether of not all the conditions look perfect.

Maybe you have to just look at what is working for you, and what is not working for you. Give yourself props for the former, and adjust or recreate the latter to the best of your ability--and then jump.

 

[Perseverance7779311]

Well, it's been a long journey for me, but there have been many factors outside of school. In reality, for me, school was the easy part--and it wasn't always easy. I am formally at the crossroads now. It truly is now or never. I have no aspirations for neurosurgery or the like--not that there is anything wrong with that, but, even if I wanted to pursue that, it's on the greatly improbable side of things. Plus, having worked with many surgeons, and generally getting along with them quite well, I feel like there is one heck of a residency-fellowship road, and with perhaps a very few exceptions, should be started early on in life. Again, with some exceptions, it's not the kind of path for most career changers--physician wannabes. I mean they get beat up pretty badly after it's all said and done--and it is a longer, harder road that most other paths in medicine. That's part of why I give them much respect.

I guess I am wondering why you are looking at what other people are doing rather than what you are doing--i.e., what is within your locus of control? I mean there is a person I know in med school right now who could be my kid. So what? I hope the best for her. Her life track and choices were different than mine--for a number of reasons. It's not really relevant to my life. I could care less if she were a fellow training me in years to come. In fact, it'd be kind of cool. I can learn from anyone. I am open to it, so long as there are no ethical conflicts. And then again, sometimes it's about learning what not to do.

Have you applied to MS? Are you a re-applicant? I mean my situation has to do with the hoops and doing them with perfection, so I have yet to apply. At some point relatively soon, however, I will just have to jump, regardless of whether of not all the conditions look perfect.

Maybe you have to just look at what is working for you, and what is not working for you. Give yourself props for the former, and adjust or recreate the latter to the best of your ability--and then jump.

Thank you so much for your post....and yes ur right, I have to stop looking at what other people are doing and focus on what Im doing. Very true! I've been on an informal post bac track

 

[Perseverance7779311]

If I tell you that I'm in the same boat, it's an understatement. I battle with these feelings a lot. I'm turning 27 next month and two of my good friends are a year younger and just graduated from medical school. I feel like life has gone so fast yet reaching this goal has just dragged on. My younger brother's best friend is studying for Step 1 right now and he is only 24. One of my favourite bloggers is on vacation celebrating the end of medical school and what I wouldn't give to be relaxing in the sun, having medical school behind me and a few good years left of my 20s!

So, I do a few things:

Reality check: What did you do instead of getting into medical school immediately? Would you really trade all of those experiences just to go to school earlier? I know I wouldn't. We are going to learn medicine anyway. We got to live a little. Even if you spent that time doing'nothing,' that still has value. I'll let you figure out wh y since every situation is different.

Visualization: We will be in our mid-30s and a new attending if we start NOW. Do you think, at that point, we would care about being 27 and still pre-med?
Personally, I think my 30s will be way better than my 20s. Life can get a lot better so let's be positive and look forward to the amazing journey we are about to go on! We are actually really lucky to even contemplate this kind of life.

@victoriah, thank you very much for your post as well....it makes be feel better to know that there are other people like me out there with a similiar situation. I just feel like I am the only person who has taken forever to make my dream a reality. Yes, like you said, lets be positive and look forward to this amazing journey we will get to. Thank you.

 

[el_duderino]

I was 29 when I went back to school in 2011 to finish undergrad.

I'm now 33 in two weeks and just got accepted.

 

[Perseverance7779311]

@jonnythan, congratulations!!

 

[DreamingDoc]

Wow! Your story sounds exactly similar to how I felt. It's sooo easy to get discouraged, especially when you start comparing yourself to those around you. Keep pushing and don't lose sight of your goals. It took me over 5 years of applying/preparing and 3 application cycles before I was finally accepted, so there is still hope. Good luck!

 

[AkGrown84]

You are definitely not alone! I decided to pursue medicine just over 6 years ago, when I was 24. I still had about a year left in my undergrad studies. I finished my degree, and then had to do every science and math (for those that require math) prereqs post bac. In the beginning of this journey, I was a single mom of a 3 year old boy. I met my husband just a couple months after deciding I wanted to go to medical school. We got married, and have since had three more kids. I matriculate into medical school in just a few short months!

Everyone takes at least a slightly different path for different reasons. It is natural to look at those around you and compare, but don't do it with blinders on. Look at what you've been able to do or experience that they haven't been exposed to. There is no real "ideal". Is it harder going to school with kids? Yes. BUT.....I'll be enjoying grandchildren and won't be raising children in my 50's and 60's, which is something I'll enjoy much more. There are pros and cons to going to school straight through vs taking your time, taking breaks, etc. Everyone's different, and no one path is the "right" way. Roll with the punches, and enjoy the ride

 

[Perseverance7779311]

Wow! Your story sounds exactly similar to how I felt. It's sooo easy to get discouraged, especially when you start comparing yourself to those around you. Keep pushing and don't lose sight of your goals. It took me over 5 years of applying/preparing and 3 application cycles before I was finally accepted, so there is still hope. Good luck!

@DreamingDoc, thank you for the encouragement.....stories like yous are really encouraging. Yea, it is so easy to get discouraged! Okay, I'll keep pushing........congrats!!

 

[Perseverance7779311]

You are definitely not alone! I decided to pursue medicine just over 6 years ago, when I was 24. I still had about a year left in my undergrad studies. I finished my degree, and then had to do every science and math (for those that require math) prereqs post bac. In the beginning of this journey, I was a single mom of a 3 year old boy. I met my husband just a couple months after deciding I wanted to go to medical school. We got married, and have since had three more kids. I matriculate into medical school in just a few short months!

Everyone takes at least a slightly different path for different reasons. It is natural to look at those around you and compare, but don't do it with blinders on. Look at what you've been able to do or experience that they haven't been exposed to. There is no real "ideal". Is it harder going to school with kids? Yes. BUT.....I'll be enjoying grandchildren and won't be raising children in my 50's and 60's, which is something I'll enjoy much more. There are pros and cons to going to school straight through vs taking your time, taking breaks, etc. Everyone's different, and no one path is the "right" way. Roll with the punches, and enjoy the ride

@AkGrown86, thanks for your post! Like you said, i will look at what i have been able to do...instead of looking on the down side of things. Congrats on your acceptance!

 

[jt66250]

Long as heck journey? You mean like being a premed at 44? Thats how old I will be in 3 years when my apps go out to MS. My first year in premed, I am enjoying myself and I get excited when I go to my class, often sitting there with a smile on my face. I love to learn. I have no fear of failure. Yes, its strengthened by the fact I earned 2 BS degrees almost 20 years ago, and my faith in God. I just try to encourage my classmates to believe in themselves, and be fearless. I almost feel like I am cheating, because I already know how to be a college student and a successful one. The fact that I am leaving this career I already have, and I am tired of/done with and starting what I will be doing the rest of my life is a good thing and who cares if I am 50 yr old resident... it will be better than almost anything I have done professionally the last 20 years.

 

[iatros13]

Honestly, this makes me think... "Man, I wish I would have gotten my crap together and started this at 27 instead!..."

The reality is though, for my life, things needed to align a certain way. And for yours, perhaps the same. I have lived a good life, with ups and downs, thus far, and I think it will just keep getting better. I am 37 now, and will have just turned 40 when I start med school (providing I get in the first app cycle...)

Would be great to get to be younger now, but I doubt I would have made it here without the experiences that led me down the path. Glad for where I am going... So much is a state of mind. We cannot control everything, but we can always remind ourselves about the positive side of stuff - it helps a lot!

Good luck... and even if it doesn't always feel that way - right now, at 27 you are still young!

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm coming up on a decade of SDN membership and over eight years of modding the Nontrad forum. When I joined SDN in 2004, I was 29 and a premed. I had just taken the MCAT. Now I'm 39 and a month away from being an attending. During that time, I've watched ten app seasons on SDN (and went through one of them myself). I spent four years on the adcom at my med school. I've read hundreds of apps, interviewed dozens of people, responded to thousands of posts from premeds just like you, read tens of thousands more. And I'm telling you that your situation is not unique, and you are not alone. Anyone who starts down this road as a nontrad is fundamentally dissatisfied with their life at baseline. Take that as a given. Because if you weren't, you wouldn't even be considering doing this whole life-altering med school thing.

This part of my post is getting a bit off-topic, but I'm going to say it anyway. The biggest problem with the Nontrad forum is that it's like a pyramid. We have lots of premed regulars, a smattering of med students, a few residents, and no practicing attendings. Not to downplay the support network from your fellow premeds, because it's important and good for nontrad premeds to have that camaraderie. But we need more regulars who have been where you've been and survived to tell the tale. My other niche forum (Physician Scientists) has plenty of home-grown residents and attendings who have gone through the ranks. The other mod there is a long time member like me who went through his whole MD/PhD and now is a resident. I have no idea how to build that kind of multilevel community in this forum, but I would really like to see more of the senior nontrads (especially residents and attendings) stick around. Something to think about for those of you who are already accepted to med school and beyond.

 

[Nasrudin]

I'm coming up on a decade of SDN membership and over eight years of modding the Nontrad forum. When I joined SDN in 2004, I was 29 and a premed. I had just taken the MCAT. Now I'm 39 and a month away from being an attending. During that time, I've watched ten app seasons on SDN (and went through one of them myself). I spent four years on the adcom at my med school. I've read hundreds of apps, interviewed dozens of people, responded to thousands of posts from premeds just like you, read tens of thousands more. And I'm telling you that your situation is not unique, and you are not alone. Anyone who starts down this road as a nontrad is fundamentally dissatisfied with their life at baseline. Take that as a given. Because if you weren't, you wouldn't even be considering doing this whole life-altering med school thing.

This part of my post is getting a bit off-topic, but I'm going to say it anyway. The biggest problem with the Nontrad forum is that it's like a pyramid. We have lots of premed regulars, a smattering of med students, a few residents, and no practicing attendings. Not to downplay the support network from your fellow premeds, because it's important and good for nontrad premeds to have that camaraderie. But we need more regulars who have been where you've been and survived to tell the tale. My other niche forum (Physician Scientists) has plenty of home-grown residents and attendings who have gone through the ranks. The other mod there is a long time member like me who went through his whole MD/PhD and now is a resident. I have no idea how to build that kind of multilevel community in this forum, but I would really like to see more of the senior nontrads (especially residents and attendings) stick around. Something to think about for those of you who are already accepted to med school and beyond.

As someone who has been on the receiving end of your advice and help over the years I take this one on the nose. I think part of the reason I don't like coming here, despite spending so much time here as a premed, is precisely because I spent too many frustrated years as a premed. That and I find the disconnect between actual medical training and the occult like process of making yourself a suitable acolyte to medicine's gatekeepers disorienting and alienating. Nobody here wants to hear about it. And they think you're just a complainer. So I just stopped coming here. Except very occasionally.

OP, I started as a premed in 2002 and joined sdn in its infancy then or shortly after. I worked in health care. The amount of people I've seen passing me, as I putted along in the slow lane like tommy Chong in a VW bus, is vast and countless. In that span of time I had huge setbacks. Work injury with multiple surgeries and years of disability that prevented me from going forward. (I remember Q the applicant). As I plodded along like an ant crossing a desert, I remember entirely separate generations of sdn posters who have been attendings for years now.

I was 37 and worn down way past my prime by the time I got to be a freshman medical student. And here I am, about to be a 40 year old intern.

I'm happy with it. But I don't recommend it. And am not rosey about it. Which is another reason why I am disharmonious with the hype of getting into medical school.

Warm regards Q. I hear you. And yet I can't do what you do. The chasm between me and the trials of getting this far are welcome. And I'm not that useful given my current state of mind. I cannot muster encouragement very often, unless it's in person, or somebody approaches me personally.

 

[jl lin]

Nas, I remember you. The acolyte comment made me smile SO BIG. This is nothing new to me. It's prevalent in all of healthcare--and especially in more recent years as the business/$$$ side of healthcare has taken center stage.
The game can get nauseating. I favor those that somehow move forward and have minimal interaction with it--but IMHO, these are fewer than what I would ideally hope to see. You have coat your gut with iron in order to tolerate it. I loathe the game. This is part of my feet-dragging. But to be fair, it is a part of many fields, so. . .

 

[econ2med]

As someone who has been on the receiving end of your advice and help over the years I take this one on the nose. I think part of the reason I don't like coming here, despite spending so much time here as a premed, is precisely because I spent too many frustrated years as a premed. That and I find the disconnect between actual medical training and the occult like process of making yourself a suitable acolyte to medicine's gatekeepers disorienting and alienating. Nobody here wants to hear about it. And they think you're just a complainer. So I just stopped coming here. Except very occasionally.

OP, I started as a premed in 2002 and joined sdn in its infancy then or shortly after. I worked in health care. The amount of people I've seen passing me, as I putted along in the slow lane like tommy Chong in a VW bus, is vast and countless. In that span of time I had huge setbacks. Work injury with multiple surgeries and years of disability that prevented me from going forward. (I remember Q the applicant). As I plodded along like an ant crossing a desert, I remember entirely separate generations of sdn posters who have been attendings for years now.

I was 37 and worn down way past my prime by the time I got to be a freshman medical student. And here I am, about to be a 40 year old intern.

I'm happy with it. But I don't recommend it. And am not rosey about it. Which is another reason why I am disharmonious with the hype of getting into medical school.

Warm regards Q. I hear you. And yet I can't do what you do. The chasm between me and the trials of getting this far are welcome. And I'm not that useful given my current state of mind. I cannot muster encouragement very often, unless it's in person, or somebody approaches me personally.

Despite not being(or feeling) useful in your current state of mind, many SDN'er heavily rely on and appreciate comments from long time posters like you, Q and Dr. Midlife. You guys keep the non-trads going when the going gets tough. So keep it up!

 

[Nasrudin]

Despite not being(or feeling) useful in your current state of mind, many SDN'er heavily rely on and appreciate comments from long time posters like you, Q and Dr. Midlife. You guys keep the non-trads going when the going gets tough. So keep it up!

I'll have to take your word for it. I'll look for opportunities like this one to put my sense of the drudgery to use.

Truthfully it's not that it's that bad, it's just that I got lucky for it to have been worth it financially and otherwise. Which is why I don't recommend it for people past 30 something.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

going on 6 years, just turned 26; re-applicant next year

 

[Nasrudin]

going on 6 years, just turned 26; re-applicant next year

Best avatar on sdn!

 

[familyaerospace]

Hey guys, I have been on the road towards preparing to apply to med school for the past five years. At this point, I am tired as heck and am getting discouraged....If it weren't for my fiance and my mother, I dont know what the heck id do. I am now 27, and I just get so depressed when I see other people graduating from med school who graduated from undergrad after me, or at the same time. Don't get me wrong, Im happy for them, but it just reminds me of my current situation..anyone else been on a long journey towards becoming a doctor?

I'm 32 and completed a "pre-med" degree when I was 22 (and had kids) then got a MS and finished off my pre-reqs. This is my third round of applying and I realistically cannot apply for my 4th round.

 

[DrMidlife]

How I felt about all this when I was a 38 year old premed: "we're all in this together SDN comrades! anybody willing to do the hard work has a shot at med school! you can do good analysis as an older premed to comprehensively understand your motivation and discern whether a career as a physician makes sense for you! Here's a link to a story about a 67 year old transgender paraplegic who is an M1 now!!!"

How I feel about all this as a 47 year old M2 prepping for step 1: I hate everything and everybody, I don't recognize the former me who wrote my passionate and ass-kicking PS, and I am SO DISAPPOINTED in myself that I couldn't see this misery coming. Also, because I have some classmates that I would never ever choose for a doctor, I'm starting to default towards extra tough love when I give SDN advice. Very tired of looking and feeling like crap. Very broke. Disillusioned.

How I'd better feel on rotations: "Yay I finally get to do what I do best: have productive conversations with the public, solve problems, learn systems, acquire and apply new knowledge, get things done, build and use networks, etc." Hopefully I'll get reminded, pretty soon, why I'm here.

It's a job after a decade of training and $250k+. There are deeply satisfying and meaningful jobs outside medical practice. For the love of all that's holy, identify some, so that you have a basis for comparison before you commit to med school.

Best of luck to you.

 

[jl lin]

OK. Out of plain old curiosity. . .I am wondering if the vet-med students/residents concur with the overall negative feeling of the human-MS students/ residents? I just think it would be interesting to read their points of view--comparatively speaking.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

How I feel about all this as a 47 year old M2 prepping for step 1: I hate everything and everybody, I don't recognize the former me who wrote my passionate and ass-kicking PS, and I am SO DISAPPOINTED in myself that I couldn't see this misery coming. Also, because I have some classmates that I would never ever choose for a doctor, I'm starting to default towards extra tough love when I give SDN advice. Very tired of looking and feeling like crap. Very broke. Disillusioned.

.

****, I hope this isn't me in 2 years.

 

[Jewels86]

How I felt about all this when I was a 38 year old premed: "we're all in this together SDN comrades! anybody willing to do the hard work has a shot at med school! you can do good analysis as an older premed to comprehensively understand your motivation and discern whether a career as a physician makes sense for you! Here's a link to a story about a 67 year old transgender paraplegic who is an M1 now!!!"

How I feel about all this as a 47 year old M2 prepping for step 1: I hate everything and everybody, I don't recognize the former me who wrote my passionate and ass-kicking PS, and I am SO DISAPPOINTED in myself that I couldn't see this misery coming. Also, because I have some classmates that I would never ever choose for a doctor, I'm starting to default towards extra tough love when I give SDN advice. Very tired of looking and feeling like crap. Very broke. Disillusioned.

How I'd better feel on rotations: "Yay I finally get to do what I do best: have productive conversations with the public, solve problems, learn systems, acquire and apply new knowledge, get things done, build and use networks, etc." Hopefully I'll get reminded, pretty soon, why I'm here.

It's a job after a decade of training and $250k+. There are deeply satisfying and meaningful jobs outside medical practice. For the love of all that's holy, identify some, so that you have a basis for comparison before you commit to med school.

Best of luck to you.

Oh my...

I am not far from your age and sadly, you are NOT the first, or the second, or even the third person that has echoed this sentiment. I have talked to a few future docs (MS2's, MS3's), residents, PA's and freshly graduated physicians and the majority feel exactly like you do. They all tell me to do NP, since FM is my goal.

Here's a story relating to what you wrote: I met someone who now runs a feed store. He was a CEO of a hospital system here in Texas. I think his salary was $220k+. Now, he sells chicks, seed and bunnies and LOVES it. His sanity is back. Nice guy. He works with the FFA kids. He has peace.

Thank you for your heartfelt posting. Can't buy sanity. You've given me something to think about. Hope step 1 is easy for you.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

They all tell me to do NP, since FM is my goal.

If FM is truly the only practice you're interested in, they are right by all indications of the way primary care is going.

Here's a story relating to what you wrote: I met someone who now runs a feed store. He was a CEO of a hospital system here in Texas. I think his salary was $220k+. Now, he sells chicks, seed and bunnies and LOVES it. His sanity is back. Nice guy. He works with the FFA kids. He has peace.

There's this side and the flip side. The flip side being the feed store guy who always wonders what he could have personally achieved had he fully applied his talents and taken the opportunities. It goes both ways.

 

[MrLogan13]

Hang in there, the hard work will pay off. You can't compare yourself to your peers, we are all on our own journey. I'm 32. After getting out of the military, I worked while spending four years at a community college before transferring to a university. Spent two years there, and currently in the middle of a two-year M.S. program. Just keep moving forward, you will get to where you want to be. The journey helps shape who you are.

 

[DrMidlife]

For 8 years I've seen people in this forum wax poetic on the wonders of a medical career. And I've seen people talk about how much medicine sucks (trismegistus and pandabear come to mind) and how dissatisfied they are with their careers and lives. But 99% of the discussion from med students, residents and attendings is MIXED. I suggest that my perspective above is MIXED.

I suggest that if you are attracted to the extreme positive or the extreme negative, and you're trying to draw a clean tidy conclusion, then you are being intellectually lazy. The middle is where you will be in any career. You will love it sometimes. You will hate it sometimes. Every day will be a mix of both. Certainly during your intern year and at other times you will regularly dream of quitting, and you will reconsider everything. This is nontrad. You're supposed to be older and wiser. So have the maturity to hold multiple competing perspectives in your head at one time. Put away Occam's razor because there's nothing to aim it at.

There is exactly zero chance that you are going to find a clean tidy answer to "should I try to be a doctor?" The answer is yes and the answer is no and the answer is who knows. All true.

Go team.

 

[QofQuimica]

How I felt about all this when I was a 38 year old premed: "we're all in this together SDN comrades! anybody willing to do the hard work has a shot at med school! you can do good analysis as an older premed to comprehensively understand your motivation and discern whether a career as a physician makes sense for you! Here's a link to a story about a 67 year old transgender paraplegic who is an M1 now!!!"

How I feel about all this as a 47 year old M2 prepping for step 1: I hate everything and everybody, I don't recognize the former me who wrote my passionate and ass-kicking PS, and I am SO DISAPPOINTED in myself that I couldn't see this misery coming. Also, because I have some classmates that I would never ever choose for a doctor, I'm starting to default towards extra tough love when I give SDN advice. Very tired of looking and feeling like crap. Very broke. Disillusioned.

How I'd better feel on rotations: "Yay I finally get to do what I do best: have productive conversations with the public, solve problems, learn systems, acquire and apply new knowledge, get things done, build and use networks, etc." Hopefully I'll get reminded, pretty soon, why I'm here.

DrM, you are neck deep in the nadir of medical school. Plenty of your MS3 rotations will suck too, because plenty of people suck, and you'll be spending all your time dealing with them. But there's no period of med school that is more stressful, demoralizing, or difficult than the second half of second year. Only intern year sucks more, and it sucks for very different reasons.

Oh my...

I am not far from your age and sadly, you are NOT the first, or the second, or even the third person that has echoed this sentiment. I have talked to a few future docs (MS2's, MS3's), residents, PA's and freshly graduated physicians and the majority feel exactly like you do. They all tell me to do NP, since FM is my goal.

You're already an RN, right? Heck yeah, you should go the NP route. Less training time, fewer loans, no residency, excellent salary/job flexibility, humane work hours. There's no reason for an RN interested in primary care to get an MD/DO except out of sheer cussedness. Seriously.

Warm regards Q. I hear you. And yet I can't do what you do. The chasm between me and the trials of getting this far are welcome. And I'm not that useful given my current state of mind. I cannot muster encouragement very often, unless it's in person, or somebody approaches me personally.

I don't mean to suggest that you should or must muster encouragement very often. If anything, I'd argue that a splash of cold water on the unrealistic expectations of people who don't know what your experience has been like, but think they have it all figured out, is often warranted. Sprinkle it on liberally and frequently. Because as often as you hear people tell you how much medical training sucks, you still don't totally believe it until you're living it. Maybe it's a good thing, the way we tend to romanticize the next stage of training. If I'd had any idea how miserable intern year was going to be, I'd never have gone to med school. I'm still not totally sure it was a wise idea. Ask me again in six months, I guess.

OK. Out of plain old curiosity. . .I am wondering if the vet-med students/residents concur with the overall negative feeling of the human-MS students/ residents? I just think it would be interesting to read their points of view--comparatively speaking.

I'm guessing no. So many of the hassles of medical training and practice don't apply to veterinary medicine. Heck, we've barely reached the point in our history where most of us have decided it's a bad idea to torture animals.

****, I hope this isn't me in 2 years.

I hope it isn't too. But these are exactly the kinds of things you need to see and hear, 4W. All premeds need to see and hear them, and nontrads need it most of all.

For 8 years I've seen people in this forum wax poetic on the wonders of a medical career. And I've seen people talk about how much medicine sucks (trismegistus and pandabear come to mind) and how dissatisfied they are with their careers and lives. But 99% of the discussion from med students, residents and attendings is MIXED. I suggest that my perspective above is MIXED.

I suggest that if you are attracted to the extreme positive or the extreme negative, and you're trying to draw a clean tidy conclusion, then you are being intellectually lazy. The middle is where you will be in any career. You will love it sometimes. You will hate it sometimes. Every day will be a mix of both. Certainly during your intern year and at other times you will regularly dream of quitting, and you will reconsider everything. This is nontrad. You're supposed to be older and wiser. So have the maturity to hold multiple competing perspectives in your head at one time. Put away Occam's razor because there's nothing to aim it at.

There is exactly zero chance that you are going to find a clean tidy answer to "should I try to be a doctor?" The answer is yes and the answer is no and the answer is who knows. All true.

Agree. Though I think both of them eventually found their niches. Panda got out of FM and landed in EM, which he liked a lot better. Tri is a resident and has kind of disappeared, but he was doing ok last I heard from him.

 

[Nasrudin]

Ok. Perhaps I'll return after intern year and step 3 is done. Which brings to mind something you said I agree with. If you're already a nurse, you're 2-3 years away from being a clinician. That's just the time it will take you to sit for the MCAT and take your basic sciences. To say nothing of medical school and the step exams and intern year and residency. It makes no sense to become a physician. That's a no brainer.

 

[jl lin]

Have to disagree re: the comments on FM. Really, so many medically complex cases needing well-educated, medically-educated care. It be one thing, maybe, if more highly experienced acute/critical nurses went on for NP--but people do a few years as RNs--or they take convenience-based positions and not busy, university-based centers, and they just don't get the same on-the-job education--and neither do many of them follow-up with their experiences on their own--self-educators--so that they can have more insight and be better clinicians. They just scratch the surface in terms of clinical experience, and they really can't put it together when things get complex. Then they are so quick to jump into NP programs. It's sad to me.

No, there are too many people and kids with medically complex problems; -I see the med-complex kids everyday. It is amazing what gets missed.

 

[jl lin]

Ok. Perhaps I'll return after intern year and step 3 is done. Which brings to mind something you said I agree with. If you're already a nurse, you're 2-3 years away from being a clinician. That's just the time it will take you to sit for the MCAT and take your basic sciences. To say nothing of medical school and the step exams and intern year and residency. It makes no sense to become a physician. That's a no brainer.

Again, it depends on what the OP wants to do. I mean neonatology might be something up OP's ally; but that's what? Seven years post medical school?

Personally, I think many nurses are in a good position, if they have worked in the right places for a while, to know pretty much what they are getting into.
No doubt, OP has seen such over the years, up close and personal. If it works for OP to move int this direction, OP should go for it.

I agree with Dr.ML. There are pluses and minuses in ALL things in life. It's called life--not utopia. Marriage has its ups and downs. Raising kids definitely has its ups and downs. The pattern of how life works, generally speaking, is one of undulations.

 

[Nasrudin]

Again, it depends on what the OP wants to do. I mean neonatology might be something up OP's ally; but that's what? Seven years post medical school?

Personally, I think many nurses are in a good position, if they have worked in the right places for a while, to know pretty much what they are getting into.
No doubt, OP has seen such over the years, up close and personal. If it works for OP to move int this direction, OP should go for it.

I agree with Dr.ML. There are pluses and minuses in ALL things in life. It's called life--not utopia. Marriage has its ups and downs. Raising kids definitely has its ups and downs. The pattern of how life works, generally speaking, is one of undulations.

Agree with the first post but not the bolded above. The hell they do. You all see the nice, soft, smooth sand. Not the rock and the ocean that made it.

Sorry. But you don't know.

What you can say with orders of magnitude more certainty than most premeds is what you do or don't like about certain fields. For instance you will be able to compare every field you want to explore against ICU or IM or whatever else you worked in for a while. You will have useful skills to help all along the way. You clinical intuition about patients will be far and away superior to your colleagues.

But by no stretch do you know what it will take to get to be that attending in your ICU. That's like a fetus telling the sonographer about the stock market.

 

[medwidget]

Hi. Q has shamed me into posting -- I'm pretty much exclusively a lurker.

I've been on a journey, definitely. As a non-trad pre-med, I had a terrifying GPA hole to climb out of. Somehow, I did it, through sheer "cussedness." It took two years of heavy course loads along with MCAT studying, working, and somehow finding time for my then very young child. One more year for my application cycle. My very borderline GPA got me nothing but waitlists. Through some miracle, I came off the waitlist at my local allopathic school in July.

I loved medical school, and I poured my heart into it. Maybe too much. I got divorced during MS2. (That was a disaster and is a story for another day.)

Crushed steps 1 and 2 along with my shelf exams. This was in no small part due to advice on SDN. A few months ago, I matched into my top choice of residency.

I think it was worth it despite the complete and utter loss of my 20s. I feel that I was meant to be a physician, and I'm actually really excited to start intern year. (I realize that I may have different feelings in sixth months.)

It is an incredible privilege to be a part of the medical community. One of the best aspects of that community is the tradition of learning from those ahead of you and guiding those behind you. Thank you to everyone whose advice helped me so much. If I can be of any service to those going through the process, please let me know.

OP, it's a long road. You still have many miles ahead of you. But there are a lot of beautiful experiences up there, and I personally think it's worth it.

 

[Nasrudin]

It's good to get a variety of opinions. I would've said something similar to the above in my 20's.

I would caution all making a go at it that we age differently. More importantly the mileage is different for every body. Med school is about effort and endurance and drive. Those things change over the life arc.

I'll put it this way. Do most older premeds--older now....let's be serious...in my 20's I could work hard labor in the hot sun all day, drink all evening, dance all night, f@ck till the sun comes up, and go back to work in the morning--go into noncompetitive specialties for a martyr's reward in the hereafter or does the medical rat race just become intolerable at a certain age?

 

[jl lin]

Agree with the first post but not the bolded above. The hell they do. You all see the nice, soft, smooth sand. Not the rock and the ocean that made it.

Sorry. But you don't know.

What you can say with orders of magnitude more certainty than most premeds is what you do or don't like about certain fields. For instance you will be able to compare every field you want to explore against ICU or IM or whatever else you worked in for a while. You will have useful skills to help all along the way. You clinical intuition about patients will be far and away superior to your colleagues.

But by no stretch do you know what it will take to get to be that attending in your ICU. That's like a fetus telling the sonographer about the stock market.

Honestly, after 20 years in critical care nursing in every major, inner-city, and university-based medical center and children's hospital you can imagine, yes, seen a WHOLE hell of a lot. What do think scares most nurses interested in med-school from doing surgery? Been in some really serious healthcare longer than many people here, maybe even most here. If you have worked where I have over the years, definitely, yes. Who the heck do you think residents confide in? Cute, smart, supportive ICU nurses Nas. . .that's who.

 

[jl lin]

But by no stretch do you know what it will take to get to be that attending in your ICU. That's like a fetus telling the sonographer about the stock market.

No Nas. I never said I knew what it was like to be an attending in an ICU. I have a pretty good feel for some things. That's not what I meant. Mostly it's the fellows and residents that take on a huge bulk of the stress in my experience.

 

[Nasrudin]

No Nas. I never said I knew what it was like to be an attending in an ICU. I have a pretty good feel for some things. That's not what I meant. Mostly it's the fellows and residents that take on a huge bulk of the stress in my experience.

Sure, you have empathy for the sacrifice. And they value you I'm sure. But that is not you crawling through all of the tests and late nights of studying interspersed between long sickening vegetative states amassing everything for huge standardized exams. Rinsing, repeating. Then rinsing and repeating between long hours at work. If you're old now, how do you think that scramble will feel 5 years from now? How could you know?

It's not an insult. It's not some amazing thing to know the toil of a tedious rat race for years and years on end. It's not stupendous to study until your blood coagulates inside your veins. It's not mysterious and wonderful to study after every long day on a clerkship. To roll all the dice on hundreds of thousands of loan money at 6+ points. And then 3-8 years more of walking on egg shells through a bureaucratic obstacle course, for your contract....to keep the train going at all costs. Etc.

Let me know when you crush the MCAT. Something I can scarcely remember. To beat out all the other applicants with amazing credentials just to get on board. Then 3-4 years after that we'll talk. And I'll be curious to see how you feel.

Or do the smart thing and be content with your honorable and amazing career in nursing. Or advanced nursing practice.

 

[QofQuimica]

It's good to get a variety of opinions. I would've said something similar to the above in my 20's.

I would caution all making a go at it that we age differently. More importantly the mileage is different for every body. Med school is about effort and endurance and drive. Those things change over the life arc.

I'll put it this way. Do most older premeds--older now....let's be serious...in my 20's I could work hard labor in the hot sun all day, drink all evening, dance all night, f@ck till the sun comes up, and go back to work in the morning--go into noncompetitive specialties for a martyr's reward in the hereafter or does the medical rat race just become intolerable at a certain age?

S/he's an MS4. That's like being in the eye of the hurricane: beautiful, peaceful. It's even sunny in there. Right before the back wall winds slam you on your a**, of course.

All kidding aside, thanks for contributing, medwidget. I'm sorry about the divorce (my marriage didn't even survive grad school, never mind med school), but congrats on the match.

 

[jl lin]

Sure, you have empathy for the sacrifice. And they value you I'm sure. But that is not you crawling through all of the tests and late night of studying interspersed between long sickening vegetative states amassing everything for huge standardized exams. Rinsing, repeating. Then rinsing and repeating between long hours at work. If you're old now, how do you think that scramble will feel 5 years from now? How could you know?

It's not an insult. It's not some amazing thing to know the toil of a tedious rat race for years and years on end. It's not stupendous to study until your blood coagulates inside your veins. It's not mysterious and wonderful to study after every long day on a clerkship. To roll all the dice on hundreds of thousands of loan money at 6+ points. And then 3-8 years more of walking on egg shells through a bureaucratic obstacle course, for your contract....to keep the train going at all costs. Etc.

Let me know when you crush the MCAT. Something I can scarcely remember. To beat out all the other applicants with amazing credentials just to get on board. Then 3-4 years after that we'll talk. And I'll be curious to see how you feel.

Or do the smart thing and be content with your honorable and amazing career in nursing. Or advanced nursing practice.

Yes. To those points, I must agree. And the bureaucratic obstacle course--I believe I would have to agree---and find some way to endure--to tolerate that part. I have tasted some of that in my field, and it's never been something for which I've acquired a high tolerance.

I don't know how I will feel. I've given my all in my current field, and it's never been the best fit for me--and I know I am very good at what I do.

Like I said. I didn't know how I would fair about a great many things in life--marriage, children, those harsh, painful curveballs that many folks must take head-0n. We all have our stories, and like most, mine is no bed of roses either. But there have been days of wine and roses. There are sunny days, and their are stormy ones.

I have no great expectations that one field or another will "create" me or "re-create" me. I am more than a profession, career, or job. All my life-eggs have never been in one basket. Maybe it's b/c I guess somehow I pretty much always knew that life doesn't work that way--the way of "When I get this or do that, then I'll be happy and life will be great." That's so far from my philosophy and worldview, so to speak.

"Happiness is a journey, not a destination; happiness is to be found along the way not at the end of the road, for then the journey is over and it's too late.
The time for happiness is today not tomorrow."

I understand that there are a number of reasons for the resentment and regrets; but I also know they are a huge waste of precious time. Listen, no one necessarily wants to get up and run those laps every day. A person makes a choice each day. They either devote themselves to perfecting--or at least optimizing whatever they pursue, or they do not--even if it's a matter of devoting oneself to optimizing one's rest. When you devote each day w/ such a focus; even if somehow things fall short, then why not love yourself and appreciate yourself for doing so? And when it becomes easier to love and appreciate others--even when people act like' bastard covered bastards w/ bastard filling,' you know who you are--you begin to understand the joy in what you are doing. You know this joy of becoming can sustain you. It is then that you know you are in the right "place," so to speak.

Nas, I don't really know you at all. But I have always felt like you were hard on yourself in some ways. As sucky as it may have been and still is, I think you know that you have valued many stops on this journey. You will live to tell of them, and then I hope you encourage others.

 

[Nasrudin]

Yes. To those points, I must agree. And the bureaucratic obstacle course--I believe I would have to agree---and find some way to endure--to tolerate that part. I have tasted some of that in my field, and it's never been something for which I've acquired a high tolerance.

I don't know how I will feel. I've given my all in my current field, and it's never been the best fit for me--and I know I am very good at what I do.

Like I said. I didn't know how I would fair about a great many things in life--marriage, children, those harsh, painful curveballs that many folks must take head-0n. We all have our stories, and like most, mine is no bed of roses either. But there have been days of wine and roses. There are sunny days, and their are stormy ones.

I have no great expectations that one field or another will "create" me or "re-create" me. I am more than a profession, career, or job. All my life-eggs have never been in one basket. Maybe it's b/c I guess somehow I pretty much always knew that life doesn't work that way--the way of "When I get this or do that, then I'll be happy and life will be great." That's so far from my philosophy and worldview, so to speak.

"Happiness is a journey, not a destination; happiness is to be found along the way not at the end of the road, for then the journey is over and it's too late.
The time for happiness is today not tomorrow."

I understand that there are a number of reasons for the resentment and regrets; but I also know they are a huge waste of precious time. Listen, no one necessarily wants to get up and run those laps every day. A person makes a choice each day. They either devote themselves to perfecting--or at least optimizing whatever they pursue, or they do not--even if it's a matter of devoting oneself to optimizing one's rest. When you devote each day w/ such a focus; even if somehow things fall short, then why not love yourself and appreciate yourself for doing so? And when it becomes easier to love and appreciate others--even when people act like' bastard covered bastards w/ bastard filling,' you know who you are--you begin to understand the joy in what you are doing. You know this joy of becoming can sustain you. It is then that you know you are in the right "place," so to speak.

Nas, I don't really know you at all. But I have always felt like you were hard on yourself in some ways. As sucky as it may have been and still is, I think you know that you have valued many stops on this journey. You will live to tell of them, and then I hope you encourage others.

Well. Good. At least you're realistic. I tend towards lowering my own expectations and feeling somber feels protective of worse things, so you're probably right there.

Still. The attendings I worked with before med school who were much younger than I will be were already starting to shift gears. Take more vacation. Work less. They were established and nearly debt free.

Doing this older. And not f@cking 26 you miserable brats. Comes at some serious costs. That no poetry of "the journey"--Jesus Jehovah Jirah I'm starting to hate the word "journey"--can pay the debt of.

Good luck. Even if on a fool's errand.

 

[QofQuimica]

That no poetry of "the journey"--Jesus Jehovah Jirah I'm starting to hate the word "journey"--can pay the debt of.

You have no idea how much I'm laughing at the irony of this sentence.

Seriously though, it's not the increased salary that I'm most looking forward to about being an attending. It's that I'll be working about 1/3 fewer hours per week. One of the big reasons I decided to take a break from training rather than go right into fellowship was because I just didn't feel like I could stomach several more years of working 80 hour weeks right now. I'm burnt to a crisp, and I either need to cut back, or get out of medicine altogether. People have warned me that taking time off before fellowship is a bad idea, that I won't go back. Well, what they fail to acknowledge is that I've already gone back, not once, but twice. (Once for my PhD, once for my MD.) I know I will go back if I so choose. I also know that I just don't have it in me to do it right now.

 

[jl lin]

Well. Good. At least you're realistic. I tend towards lowering my own expectations and feeling somber feels protective of worse things, so you're probably right there.

Still. The attendings I worked with before med school who were much younger than I will be were already starting to shift gears. Take more vacation. Work less. They were established and nearly debt free.

Doing this older. And not f@cking 26 you miserable brats. Comes at some serious costs. That no poetry of "the journey"--Jesus Jehovah Jirah I'm starting to hate the word "journey"--can pay the debt of.

Good luck. Even if on a fool's errand.

LOL. There are plenty of people that would say staying in my kind of nursing as long as I have was/is a fool's errand. So I took a leadership job, and I was great at that too. Guess what? The fit was still lacking.

The only thing I was foolish about was not starting this path sooner. But I made some commitments, and I felt strongly about keeping them.

I am in a great place right now for MS for many reasons--and I have had the joy of doing other things as well. I am not into sitting on my arse slowly gliding into retirement--only to go on cruises and wait to die. No thank you.
I'll go w/ this from The Last Samurai:

Katsumoto: You believe a man can change his destiny?
Algren: I think a man does what he can, until his destiny is revealed.

 

[Nasrudin]

LOL. There are plenty of people that would say staying in my kind of nursing as long as I have was/is a fool's errand. So I took a leadership job, and I was great at that too. Guess what? The fit was still lacking.

The only thing I was foolish about was not starting this path sooner. But I made some commitments, and I felt strongly about keeping them.

I am in a great place right now for MS for many reasons--and I have had the joy of doing other things as well. I am not into sitting on my arse slowly gliding into retirement--only to go on cruises and wait to die. No thank you.
I'll go w/ this from The Last Samurai:

Katsumoto: You believe a man can change his destiny?
Algren: I think a man does what he can, until his destiny is revealed.

Well then. Welcome. You're exactly the type of person who cannot be dissuaded and will learn for yourself what there is to it or not. I was the same way.

It was only after all the way in that I realized Panda was right. And I can see that the me talking to him is now the you talking to me. I too thought I was privy to some unique insight.

Don't get me wrong part of me was right, if only by luck, in that the career I'm on track for suits me much better than anything else I've ever done to pay the bills.

It's just if I knew the costs like I do now, I would look around really, really, really hard for anything else that would do.

I'm out. Happy trails.

 

[Jewels86]

Have to disagree re: the comments on FM. Really, so many medically complex cases needing well-educated, medically-educated care. It be one thing, maybe, if more highly experienced acute/critical nurses went on for NP--but people do a few years as RNs--or they take convenience-based positions and not busy, university-based centers, and they just don't get the same on-the-job education--and neither do many of them follow-up with their experiences on their own--self-educators--so that they can have more insight and be better clinicians. They just scratch the surface in terms of clinical experience, and they really can't put it together when things get complex. Then they are so quick to jump into NP programs. It's sad to me.

No, there are too many people and kids with medically complex problems; -I see the med-complex kids everyday. It is amazing what gets missed.

This is the only thing that sways me from NP. I see complex too much and I worry that I would miss something critical. I don't want to send everyone to the ER just because I can't figure it out.

What these schools do is advertise so heavily that the med surg nurses that never see anything critical or unstable go into NP. They scare me. They scare me when I give report to the floors from the ER; someone needs to actually listen to the madness on the other end of the phone line. That's why docs get phone calls at 2 a.m. for a temp of 100 and have to spell out every order. And that nurse is going to NP school...online.

If I did NP, I'd study everything I could get my hands on before and definitely afterwards about the illnesses I see daily. But that's me.

 

[popopopop]

This is the only thing that sways me from NP. I see complex too much and I worry that I would miss something critical. I don't want to send everyone to the ER just because I can't figure it out.

What these schools do is advertise so heavily that the med surg nurses that never see anything critical or unstable go into NP. They scare me. They scare me when I give report to the floors from the ER; someone needs to actually listen to the madness on the other end of the phone line. That's why docs get phone calls at 2 a.m. for a temp of 100 and have to spell out every order. And that nurse is going to NP school...online.

If I did NP, I'd study everything I could get my hands on before and definitely afterwards about the illnesses I see daily. But that's me.

Fix the schools. There are very competent med-surg nurses who are strong at what they do and the world needs good people everywhere.

 

[mommy2three]

About 5 months shy of the big 4-0
Decided to go to medical school in 2003
Took 5 application cycles and two masters to get there

That is a long journey - but let me tell you it was worth every minute


Posted using SDN Mobile

 

[Nasrudin]

About 5 months shy of the big 4-0
Decided to go to medical school in 2003
Took 5 application cycles and two masters to get there

That is a long journey - but let me tell you it was worth every minute


Posted using SDN Mobile

Spoken like an honest crazy person.










j/k.

 

[EMDO2018]

I'm 32 and completed a "pre-med" degree when I was 22 (and had kids) then got a MS and finished off my pre-reqs. This is my third round of applying and I realistically cannot apply for my 4th round.

Your app was amazing, but too top heavy and you didn't apply to many schools. If you applied to more low tier schools, you definitely would have go in this year! And of course you were a sure in for DO.

 

[Richard Baddock]

This journey truly has been long.

I just wrote my story of the last 14 years, but I decided I'm not going to share it right now. It's amazing how many twists and turns life can throw at you though.

I just feel fortunate to get a chance to complete this bit of unfinished business. I also just really feel fortunate to have my friends, family, and health. It's easy to lose focus of the present when you're pushing so hard to get to the future. The person I am now at the age of 32 is worlds different than the person I was a decade ago.

Wow, I'm just feeling so much gratitude right now. Good luck to everyone who is fighting to make their dreams a reality.

 

[familyaerospace]

Your app was amazing, but too top heavy and you didn't apply to many schools. If you applied to more low tier schools, you definitely would have go in this year! And of course you were a sure in for DO.

Excuse me? This cycle I applied to 16 schools including international, my FAP only paid for 15 schools. I was rejected internationally. I applied to every lower range school there was including OOS where they took people outside of their state. I applied to a few top schools but many were not. I used the old school selector spreadsheet that was floating around here years ago to make many of my selections. That and if I knew adcomms at the school or they considered me with strong ties to the school or the state (like I have ties to U of M so since their deadline was late, I did it.)

I applied DO two cycles ago and I did NOT get in with the same stats! At least they admitted it was because I am transgendered and they claimed to need a balanced class.

Oh and one of the schools I am waitlisted on has a MCAT average of 28.