Anyone regretting doing a graduate degree in clinical psych?

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See, I'm okay with moving to Bumble****.

And I don't even remember my GRE scores, really.
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cara susanna said:
See, I'm okay with moving to Bumble****.

And I don't even remember my GRE scores, really.
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Posted the score just to make a point. A lot of people ARE willing to move, which is awesome for them! I am not willing to move wherever - family and my wife's career are also important to me. This does create some limits. But one thing i hope to prevent folks from thinking is that they can go get their PhD and find a job making 100K easily, just about anywhere they want. Doesn't work that way.
 
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Yeah, I think that you need flexibility. It sucks, but it makes your life a lot easier in this field. Well, career-wise... not moving and getting settled in and being far from family wise.
 
cara susanna said:
Yeah, I think that you need flexibility. It sucks, but it makes your life a lot easier in this field. Well, career-wise... not moving and getting settled in and being far from family wise.
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When I initially went into graduate school, the idea of moving for an internship seemed so far away and sounded like it could be a cool vacation for a year. It worked out that I had geo-restrictions and was able to get desirable positions in the city I live in (luckily, and not without some good networking). But if you don't have anything holding you back in terms of where you live, this profession can be a pretty exciting and fulfilling way to experience different places. I have some friends that really have enjoyed trying out other cities.
 
I think that it is flexibility and planning early on. I have been talking to many of my former classmates and such, what I have found is that academic prowess is not that helpful in grad school and publications are more important in academic circles than not. For me, I will admit I skated through grad school classes a bit more than my classmates, but I went out and got experiences at the local VA, in geriatrics, neuropsych, and behavioral medicine, and in the areas of the field that paid well and that I was interested in. I put my research, academic, and clinical experiences into these areas rather than being more of a generalist. It has led to higher level offers ($75-90k) compared to much lower offers for most of my colleagues ($40-50k) as my most of those positions with higher salaries covet my somewhat rare experiences. In addition, I live in a big city and am learning that moving out the suburbs and considering smaller cities/areas with lower cost of living is a key to happiness in this field as salaries seem to stay rather consistent across geographic location within a setting or specialty (~ 40k at a college counseling center vs ~75-80k at a VA or Med Ctr anywhere in the country). I still think that the VA is the easiest path to six figures in this field.
 
Jon Snow said:
Hi Sanman,

Congrats on finishing everything up.

I agree with you. Though, I do think there are some advantages to staying in a large metropolitan area. I have moved on to a smaller pond (sort of, depends how you look at it), but I would have made much more money faster in the bigger pond because of networking and the ability to easily get high quality consulting/private gigs, on the side. I made it to six figures within 4 years of finishing my research postdoc with a combo of VA and academic appointments. For academics, having a split position with the VA is currently an advantage because of the NIH situation, but that will even out eventually.

I think, in a big city, with proper contacts, getting to six figures is doable, quickly, with just clinical work. It would take you a while to get to 6 figures with just a VA position focused on clinical work. You'd start (out of postdoc) at about 80 (depending on location).
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I definitely agree that there are faster ways than the VA (mostly a combination of positions as you mentioned). However, You have put a lot more work on the research end than many clinicians at most of the VA hospitals. Many VA clinicians that I know with choose a part-time cash only private practice to make it to six figures quicker. However, anyone who puts in their time at a VA will have six figures within 10 years. As for locations, there definitely are advantages to a larger metropolitan, but things like real estate prices and overhead must factor into that as well. Right now, I am weighing staying in a larger metro(with a standing $75-90k offer when I am licensed) or moving to a medium sized city where my gf works. Average home price where I am $400-500k. Average home price where she is $200k or a little less. Both for an upper middle class suburb. That means if I take a slightly lower income to start there (say $70k) I could still afford to buy a house and pick up a small commercial property where I could keep an office and have residual income coming in from renters. In the long run, such investments would likely net me more than I lose in business opportunities.


Edit: Just to make an obvious point, business savvy is an important aspect of this as well. I may not have gotten the most A's in my grad school classes, but I was the only one who knew psychologist salaries and the disparities in income found between areas of practice. I also do not have an interest in traditional out therapy only. I have a feeling Jon Snow would agree with these points and it is likely what sets us apart from our peers.
 
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Jon Snow said:
Yes, I agree with that. I do think, though, that many of our peers have business savvy and there are lots of financially successful psychologists. It's just a complicated and increasingly challenging landscape out there and I do think many people enter it unprepared. Bad decisions early can make the path more challenging.
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oh, agreed. There are many business savvy psychologists doing very well, even today. However, I am also seeing many of my colleagues simply accept the first job that they are offered regardless of how poor the pay/benefits are. Not to be sexist, but I see this more often with my female colleagues (though I have seen this in some male colleagues as well) since they are loathe to move anywhere and their husbands are often bringing six figure incomes already. Thus, the accept $40k a year. While part of me is happy this leaves more opportunities for those such as myself, I can't help but think about what such apathy does to the future of the field. While my gf make s a significant salary, I can't ever imagine taking such a pay cut just to move to her city and she agrees with me. We move to wherever our salaries can both be maximized (after all, we are a couple and any loss of income I take now will affect out future household).
 
walt55054life said:
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193031.htm

enough said

Not in the 6 figure range, but certainly not $30,000 some were implying
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Over 40% of those responding work in schools. Skews the numbers a bit.

Also, these are not starting salaries. These are averages.

Note: I am not saying $30,000 is the norm, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was an entry-level offer in a saturated area.
 
Pragma said:
Over 40% of those responding work in schools. Skews the numbers a bit.

Also, these are not starting salaries. These are averages.

Note: I am not saying $30,000 is the norm, although I wouldn't be surprised if it was an entry-level offer in a saturated area.
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Ya, I am aware it's not starting pay, but I imagine starting pay in high saturated areas (Cali, NY, etc.) would be in the bottom percentile--which the bottom 10% average is still right under $40,000.

I'm not sure where you got 40%-it's actually well over 40% responding (42,000 compared to the field at under 30,000). Also the hour mean wage of all Industries is at or around $35 and for offices its $41. Not sure how that's skewed, but I do believe psychologist should utilize their credentials (a PhD, awards, honors, pubs, boards & committees, etc....-this is impressive stuff I don't care who you are!) to their fullest and I do see a lack of this! :( However, not nearly as dramatic as 30,000 a year. :cool:
 
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walt55054life said:
Ya, I am aware it's not starting pay, but I imagine starting pay in high saturated areas (Cali, NY, etc.) would be in the bottom percentile--which the bottom 10% average is still right under $40,000.

I'm not sure where you got 40%-it's actually well over 40% responding (42,000 compared to the field at under 30,000). Also the hour mean wage of all Industries is at or around $35 and for offices its $41. Not sure how that's skewed, but I do believe psychologist should utilize their credentials (a PhD, awards, honors, pubs, boards & committees, etc....-this is impressive stuff I don't care who you are!) to their fullest and I do see a lack of this! :( However, not nearly as dramatic as 30,000 a year. :cool:
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Yeah I had just glanced at it quick. Thought it was 42,000 out of ~100,000 or something, which was where 40% came from.

There are a number of factors that go into starting salaries. With these lumped together, it is hard to say which are for govt jobs, which are for PP vs. agency, etc. The data are quite useful - particularly with the regional breakdown. I agree that psychologists should be advocating their credentials. I just wish our national representation made it easier for us to do compared to the representation of groups already encroaching on our areas of expertise.

Therapist4Chnge said:
If a psychologist accepts a fully-licensed position for $30k-$40k...they have no one to blame but themselves because that is robbery.
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I agree. With licensure, there is some more leverage (but not necessarily a ton more given the market). I would not accept a 30-40K offer myself. I'd go work somewhere else (using or not using my license) if there were desirable positions, but I probably have more alternatives than others who haven't got as much of a research background or who haven't taught extensively. If my goal were to be a clinician 100% of the time, I would not feel as comfortable with the competition.

Before I went to graduate school, I made in the 40's with an undergraduate psychology degree. From what I understand, that is a lot harder to do now. Once again, my point is that folks should not EXPECT to leave school and be making a fairly high salary. Is it possible? Yes. The norm? Not necessarily.
 
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I've been fortunate to work at two very lucrative practices during my training. I was supervised by someone who took home half a mil a year. I have an offer to practice there one day. I never will though. You can definitely make a lot of money in this field, but it requires the drive to make money at the cost of other things, like the quality of your work and ethics (this may not be universal, but my past experience has raised some high defenses). No one ever says they want to get a Ph.D in clinical psych to take advantage of their patients, but it happens albeit unintentionally. Physicians have it much worse in regard to this pressure. I'm perfectly happy to stay within the VA or academic medical at some "no name" place, and teach a few courses at a small lib arts college to pay off some debt.
 
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IT514 said:
I've been fortunate to work at two very lucrative practices during my training. I was supervised by someone who took home half a mil a year. I have an offer to practice there one day. I never will though. You can definitely make a lot of money in this field, but it requires the drive to make money at the cost of other things, like the quality of your work and ethics (this may not be universal, but my past experience has raised some high defenses). No one ever says they want to get a Ph.D in clinical psych to take advantage of their patients, but it happens albeit unintentionally. Physicians have it much worse in regard to this pressure. I'm perfectly happy to stay within the VA or academic medical at some "no name" place, and teach a few courses at a small lib arts college to pay off some debt.
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Although i have little desire or need to make 500K/year, I'm not one really one of those who can just sit at the VA take in my government cheese every week. Well, at least its not my top choice. Snore...

Thus, I'm curious how one could reach this figure unless 1.) they were doing alot of forensic work, in which case your work really cant be shoddy, 2.) You were the senior partner of a practice with dozen or more folks working under you, all of whom kick something back to you. I'd be curious to hear about more your experience...PM is ok. :D
 
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Sent you a PM with the details. Basically it comes down to kickbacks and paying your psych techs 10 bucks an hour.

I know what you mean about the VA. I found myself bored at times when I was there for practicum and wondered if it would be somewhere I could work full time. I have yet to find a happy medium.
 
ClinicalABA said:
Me too. Even at an 80 hour work week, that's reciving ~$120 per hour!
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Thinking about being paid an hourly rate is totally the wrong mindset when analyzing the source of ultra-high incomes. You're definitely beyond an hourly rate/reimbursement or salary at that point. People who make big bucks in any field are raking in large contracts and getting the work done cheap.
 
Psychadelic2012 said:
Thinking about being paid an hourly rate is totally the wrong mindset when analyzing the source of ultra-high incomes. You're definitely beyond an hourly rate/reimbursement or salary at that point. People who make big bucks in any field are raking in large contracts and getting the work done cheap.
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+1.

Wealth is acquired through both passive and active streams of income. A per hour approach to practice will ultimately limit your income. If you don't work, you don't get paid. Negotiating favorable contracts and farming out work are two common ways people go from making $90k-$100k to $250k+.
 
I'm impressed this thread still has steam :p
 
PsychPhDStudent said:
I guess I am one of those research-types being "discounted" in this thread. ;) I want to be a triple threat: research, teaching, clinical work, and so clinical is the right choice for me. I could have gone social or quant, and I did give some consideration to the clinical vs. non-clinical degree (a al MarshmallowsNOM). In the end, I am, at heart, a researcher, and to be credible as a researcher in a clinical area, I want to be a competent practitioner, or at least have the skills to be one.

I have been tempted to post something for a while because of the numerous posts from the unhappy people here. I don't want everyone reading these boards to think that grad school has to be awful, give you physical illnesses, and take away your social life. I *love* my program and I love what I do. I love statistics, colloquia, writing...and my friends and hobbies. Grad school has been hard work and time consuming, but I have truly enjoyed the vast majority of it so far. I hope it will get even better now that I am mostly done with coursework and can focus even moreso on research.
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Hi-- I'm interested in what program you are in? and what you plan on doing after graduation? I feel that I am most similar to you in my passion and regard for this profession..
 
sydb1367 said:
No, I don’t regret it. But bear in mind, like many on here (save for Jon), I am not post licensure. Merely a lowly intern. But, this is the first job I have ever had where I actually look forward to going to work, stay late (out of choice), and seriously miss it when I am not there. Got really sick early on in my internship and missed a whole week (hazard of working in a hospital). I was climbing the walls, couldn’t wait to get back and see patients, and was calling my supervisor trying to convince her to let me come in despite my raging fever. :laugh:


Re the oftentimes overwhelming pessimism about job prospects and compensation, I had not heard such views until reading this board. Most (if not all) the psychologists, colleagues (who are further on in their training or are ECP) I talk with have not expressed such feelings. Seems that the negative viewpoint comes (mostly) from those who want to do solely psychotherapy and w/o much specialization. I don’t get this. Why on earth would you pursue a PhD/PsyD if all you want to do is therapy?! It’s in some ways like (sorry, horrible analogy coming) going to med school and then working as a nurse, administering meds, etc. Doctoral education and training, IMO, is for those who wish to specialize and pursue more than just therapy, e.g. assessment, forensics, neuropsych, teaching, research (although these last two can be done with a Masters). In which case, the compensation is, on average, better than the 75k median salary touted on these boards. (which, while lower than one would hope, is hardly peanuts, imo).


Speaking of which, the 75k salary thing, I think is misleading. Salaries vary so much depending on setting, job duties, and geography (not just state to state, but city to city). It’s much more helpful to look at the median salaries with these specifics factored in. Some of it is there on the apa salary survey. For my interests, setting, geography, the median is 120k.



While, of course, attending a funded program would be preferable, I don’t agree with those who say going to professional schools is not (in all cases) an economically viable decision. For starters, shop around, not all programs cost 200k. Mine was ~80k. Also, just because you do go to a program that costs 200k, doesn’t mean you have to graduate with that kind of debt. A good friend of mine went to one such institution, and through grants, scholarships, paid practica, paid internship, and some initial savings, accumulated 50k in debt. (granted she is likely an outlier, but it’s do-able) Finally, check out the government site on loan repayment. Income based repayment means you pay 15% of your Adjusted Gross Income (which is less than actual income, following deductions) above the poverty level and your balance is forgiven after 25 years. Plug some numbers in their calculator, the payments seem quite reasonable. E.g. 150k debt, 75k salary, assuming agi of 65k, payments are $550 a month, about 10% of net income. Also, starting 2014 loans will be forgiven after 20 years and only require 10% of your AGI above poverty level, making the payment in the above example $400. Also, payments are no different if you have 150k or 250k debt. They cap at that (currently) 15%. Of course, keep in mind as you make more, you pay more.


In short, I wouldn’t trade what I am doing for anything. But then, talk to me in 5 years :D
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Hi-- I was wondering what program your attending? and what are your plans after graduation?
 
I had a medium degree of regret at varying times. Internship and dissertation in particular. Working while in school and doing the same kind of work as people who were licensed after 2-year graduate degrees and making three times what I did while frequently requesting consultations from me got frustrating. But halfway through my post-doc I got an amazing job offer that I most certainly would not have received with a master's-level licensure degree has changed my perspective, and I'm very happy with the training I received overall.
 
dissonance_ said:
The latter is clear from posts from clinicians who (I think) are in clinical settings (e.g., smalltownpsych, AA, t4C, and psydr) And DrMikeP, obviously. To spend years of training in didactics, practicum, internship (and 2 yr post doc fellowship for neuros), to have to THEN go above and beyond to get trained in MORE clinical work (RxP/neuroanatomy/dissection/neurology/etc) seems just as difficult/same amount of time as med school.
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To be fair, you should always be learning because the field is growing and changing. There is continuing education required by (most) state licensure boards, but there should be more than that. Those of us in medical settings tend to have a lot of opportunities to attend free trainings, which is definitely helpful. I wouldn't do half of the lectures if I had to go find them, pay for them, arrange to get coverage for the time, etc. I also pursued additional formal training for research reasons, though some do it for personal growth/to be more competitive, or other reasons. Access to additional learning is a big reason I chose an academic position.
 
dissonance_ said:
After 2 mos of analyzing these threads along with several PM’s, I now wonder if I would regret a Phd in clinical. I have no interest in conducting therapy or working full time in research (although I do like research). From the posts on the threads, it seems like the clinicians in VA’s and AMCs (my ideal spots for neuropsych work) adapt to medicine, and not the other way around (psych to medicine).

Many clinicians posting on here have gone above and beyond to become competent in medicine in addition to their own areas of interests in psych. The latter is clear from posts from clinicians who (I think) are in clinical settings (e.g., smalltownpsych, AA, t4C, and psydr) And DrMikeP, obviously. To spend years of training in didactics, practicum, internship (and 2 yr post doc fellowship for neuros), to have to THEN go above and beyond to get trained in MORE clinical work (RxP/neuroanatomy/dissection/neurology/etc) seems just as difficult/same amount of time as med school.
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About 6 years of post-grad work to get the doctorate plus a 2 year fellowship - yup, takes about the same amount of time. After that, we get paid less than the physicians. :arghh:
I don't agree that we need extra formal training beyond that to be competent to practice in a medical setting although as T4C stated, continuing to learn is part of what all healthcare providers, including psychologists should do. I also don't think we need to adapt to the setting so much as integrating into that setting and bringing our perspective and skill set to the medical setting. If we had the same mindset and skills then we would add little benefit.
 
dissonance_ said:
I know the extra training isn't required, but I tend to fall on the hypercompetitive/workaholic side, so I would most definitely get the extra training via med schools.
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The training in med school is core to being a physician (and similiar in residency), but that most likely won't include most of what the "extra" training in that a psychologist would pursue.

For instance, I've pursued training in medical leadership, how to provide quality mentorship, development of a research program, etc. These were targeting faculty (MDs & PhDs), so it's available for either route. There was a mindfulness training a couple years back that targeted psychologists, though other faculty were welcome.

I'd encourage you to look at day to day practice and see which path is a better fit. I'vecseen what my out-pt looks like compared to my physician colleagues...and I'd take my work everyday of the wk. They are double booked, they have more BS to deal w. regarding patient follow-up (e.g. refills, meltdowns, etc), and I avoid having to take call. Sone hosoitals require it, but they are in the minority.
 
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I don't know if I regret it per se, but I'm not sure I'd make the same choice again. Then again, maybe I'll feel differently when I've finally finished jumping through these training/licensure hoops.
 
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Quite a bit is taught/learned on fellowship in those areas....though it is mostly applied learning. I would hope that was learned in undergrad, but that is often not the case. I'm a big believer in pushing for more hard sciences courses at the undergrad level and having more requirements at the grad level. Only requiring one pharmacology course is weak. Not requiring neuroanatomy is a joke. There needs to be some type of behavioral neurology type course required bc patients will have co-occurring proverbs when they cone in. That last one would never make the cut, but a guy can dream.

The above is to the ire of the, "hard science is icky" crowd. They tend to be close with the, "research is icky" crowd. I don't want those folks in the field because you can't just ignore huge contributing factors when you are trying to treat a patient.
 
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