AOA, AACOM, and the ACGME agree to unified accreditation system

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This is great. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Interesting. I was just reading other posts that basically said "keep dreaming, this will never happen", then I see this.
 
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About time! I hope this means the death of the comlex
 
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So they will make MDs take the comlex to get into osteopathic ACGME programs?
 
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Sooooo should I still take the comlex and usmle?
 
Why is this such good news? Specifically, what benefit does this have for DO students? I see everyone extremely excited about this but do not really understand why to be completely honest. Its not like the COMLEX has been eliminated or anything. Other than the "step in the right direction and less bias" argument, what immediate positive impact does this have? This is a serious question. Thanks.
 
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bjmo said:
Why is this such good news? Specifically, what benefit does this have for DO students? I see everyone extremely excited about this but do not really understand why to be completely honest. Its not like the COMLEX has been eliminated or anything. Other than the "step in the right direction and less bias" argument, what immediate positive impact does this have? This is a serious question. Thanks.
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At least now you won't need to worry about not qualifying for ACGME fellowship if you do an AOA residency.
 
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bjmo said:
Why is this such good news? Specifically, what benefit does this have for DO students? I see everyone extremely excited about this but do not really understand why to be completely honest. Its not like the COMLEX has been eliminated or anything. Other than the "step in the right direction and less bias" argument, what immediate positive impact does this have? This is a serious question. Thanks.
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Agreed. Most people are excited because MDs and DOs are being looked at on the same playing field. Really, no big changes are happening.
 
I was just in the newborn nursery as the only resident there watching 8 little babies and read this and yelled (far too audibly) "HOLY ****".

I've been out of the loop for the last ~4 months or so. Havent heard a peep from anyone since november's national meetings. So this even caught me by surprise and I'm usually the one breaking (or close to breaking) this sort of news.
 
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No one has really mentioned this so far, but what I got from the last set of talks was that the merger was going to lock out FMGs/IMGs from the match or at least make it a lot harder for them. How does this affect that group?

Glad to see a merger finally taking place. Hopefully it doesn't screw us over.
 
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What people fail to realize is that this will not affect how MD programs view DO applicants. This simply maintains the status quo, except, now MDs will be allowed into traditionally DO residencies. If you thought that matching into a DO specialty like ortho, rads, or urology was tough now, just wait until this is fully implemented. There's really nothing to get overly excited about. The most interesting part about this whole thing is going to be waiting to see how many DO residencies will be able to meet ACGME standards for accreditation.
 
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Like the post above me stated, I'm not sure how this is good - what advantages do we get? in tradeoff for MDs now competing for our residencies.
 
DO3 said:
What people fail to realize is that this will not affect how MD programs view DO applicants. This simply maintains the status quo, except, now MDs will be allowed into traditionally DO residencies. If you thought that matching into a DO specialty like ortho, rads, or urology was tough now, just wait until this is fully implemented. There's really nothing to get overly excited about. The most interesting part about this whole thing is going to be waiting to see how many DO residencies will be able to meet ACGME standards for accreditation.
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Fearing competition? Forget that. Bring it! Increased competition is a good thing IMO and I would think for many others as well.
 
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Yeah, but think about DOs applying to those uber competitive residencies who usually have higher board scores than the MD counterparts in order to be viewed as competitive. Then it turns into a discussion of why we have to have way higher board scores and take more boards to be on a "level playing field".
 
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ACGME begins phagocytosis of AOA!
 
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Does anyone know how long this whole thing is going to take to go into full effect? For people graduating this year and going into an AOA residency, will the ability to apply for a fellowship be there?
 
Elevencents said:
In another thread it was said it will take effect in July 2015.
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Did it say take effect or begin transition? I believe it was the latter, which means who knows? The sooner the better though.
 
Dharma said:
Did it say take effect or begin transition? I believe it was the latter, which means who knows? The sooner the better though.
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Exact from the e-mail:

"From July 1, 2015 to June 30, 2020, AOA-accredited training programs will transition to ACGME recognition and accreditation."
 
Wouldn't this open the gates for AOA competitive specialties to MD and Caribbean students?
 
I don't understand why one would choose to go to an Allopathic residency after committing 4 years to learning Osteopathic techniques.

Understandably there are some residency programs that aren't available as DO residencies. For this reason I could understand it. But other than that, why would somebody choose to discontinue their osteopathic training??

I also agree with what Dharma said. It looks to me like the ACGME is going to swallow the AOA.

I think that this is a great step as far as putting us on a level playing field. But personally I feel that we already were on a level playing field. Do we really need the MD's to tell us its official?

Also along with what Scummie said, the fact that DO students have to blow the MD competition out of the water in order to be considered competitive is outrageous. Without considering anything other than board scores, why would an MD student be better qualified than a DO student if both students have the exact same board scores?

Any why would we want to do away with the COMLEX? if anything I would think that we would do away with the USMLE. The COMLEX has all of the osteopathic questions. If you want to go to a DO residency, there is no way of getting out of this.

Personally, I feel that the bottom line is that we should be proud to be Osteopathic medical students. We shouldn't have to convince our allopathic counterparts that we are on the same level. Attempting to do so is only legitimizing their bias.
 
piviti said:
Wouldn't this open the gates for AOA competitive specialties to MD and Caribbean students?
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Yeah, but my theory is that MD students that were competitive for MD residencies will want to still go MD. The ones that weren't competitive will decide to also apply DO. I think we see a lot of DO students who apply for these competitive specialties with insane board scores who will now have more a level playing field. Instead of people saying "Oh, you need a 260+ for ACGME derm", it may be more in line with MD averages like a 240. Also, a DO applying to a DO residency may be more appealing than an MD trying to get in. Actually, there may even be reverse bias towards MDs. However, for fields that are traditionally DO friendly, I don't think it will change much. That's what my guess is.

Don't know where IMGs/FMGs fit into this. Any info?
 
Lopis said:
I don't understand why one would choose to go to an Allopathic residency after committing 4 years to learning Osteopathic techniques.
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So, what you really mean is you don't understand why anyone would go do any residency without an OMM/NMM focus?
 
scummie said:
Exact from the e-mail:

"From July 1, 2015 to June 30, 2020, AOA-accredited training programs will transition to ACGME recognition and accreditation."
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Yeah, that's some loose language there. "Transition" leaves the door open for a unified match date.
 
Medicine is becoming a big business and this is sort of like the ACGME buying out the AOA. I think this could make it harder for DO's to match into competitive specialties and understand the sentiment, but I think a similar percentage of DO's will still match into those specialties. I think ACGME accreditation will help DO's though. It will ensure our residencies are up to par. I would feel better knowing my residency could cut the mustard with the ACGME, but I admit I am biased.
 
Dharma said:
Yeah, that's some loose language there. "Transition" leaves the door open for a unified match date.
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Right, we may not really see much of anything until we are actually done with our residences.
 
scummie said:
Right, we may not really see much of anything until we are actually done with our residences.
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At least we can say we can from the "old days?" :meh:
 
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scummie said:
Yeah, but my theory is that MD students that were competitive for MD residencies will want to still go MD. The ones that weren't competitive will decide to also apply DO. I think we see a lot of DO students who apply for these competitive specialties with insane board scores who will now have more a level playing field. Instead of people saying "Oh, you need a 260+ for ACGME derm", it may be more in line with MD averages like a 240. Also, a DO applying to a DO residency may be more appealing than an MD trying to get in. Actually, there may even be reverse bias towards MDs. However, for fields that are traditionally DO friendly, I don't think it will change much. That's what my guess is.

Don't know where IMGs/FMGs fit into this. Any info?
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I could see DO program PDs being biased towards MD applicants, but with so many more MDs than DOs, small fields like ENT, derm, ortho would probably be overwhelmed with MD applicants. Plus, if IMGs/FMGs start applying too, a lot of the unfilled FM/IM programs in bfe would suddenly start filling up, making everything more competitive.
 
To be honest, I hope this means some of the shady OMM like Chapman's and cranial strain patterns goes away. Or at least gets some real research not on cat skulls. I'm not saying all OMM is not legit, just some of those things.
 
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piviti said:
I could see DO program PDs being biased towards MD applicants, but with so many more MDs than DOs, small fields like ENT, derm, ortho would probably be overwhelmed with MD applicants. Plus, if IMGs/FMGs start applying too, a lot of the unfilled FM/IM programs in bfe would suddenly start filling up, making everything more competitive.
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Why would DO PDs suddenly be more biased to taking MDs in their program?
 
piviti said:
Whoops I meant against, not towards.
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Okay, makes more sense! :)

I mean, why would osteopathic residencies, who are supposed to be trying to maintain their osteopathic-ness suddenly be filled with 80%+ filled MDs? That looks terrible on the PDs part. Then you get into the messy licensing debate.
 
I feel like this is great news. Now I'm just hoping they get a single match together for the class of 2016, but that might be a bit greedy.

As far as MD's getting into DO residencies... there is still going to be Osteopathic methods and teaching in those residencies, and a lot of MD students may shy away because of those prerequisites and/or additional competencies they need to be able to meet.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx said:
  • DOs and MDs would have access to all training programs. There will be prerequisite competencies and a recommended program of training for MD graduates who apply for entry into osteopathic-focused programs.
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Dharma said:
Fearing competition? Forget that. Bring it! Increased competition is a good thing IMO and I would think for many others as well.
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It will get rid of the terrible bottom tier residencies which is good. It might not be good for those going into ortho, urology, derm ect.


Lopis said:
I don't understand why one would choose to go to an Allopathic residency after committing 4 years to learning Osteopathic techniques.

Understandably there are some residency programs that aren't available as DO residencies. For this reason I could understand it. But other than that, why would somebody choose to discontinue their osteopathic training??

I also agree with what Dharma said. It looks to me like the ACGME is going to swallow the AOA.

I think that this is a great step as far as putting us on a level playing field. But personally I feel that we already were on a level playing field. Do we really need the MD's to tell us its official?

Also along with what Scummie said, the fact that DO students have to blow the MD competition out of the water in order to be considered competitive is outrageous. Without considering anything other than board scores, why would an MD student be better qualified than a DO student if both students have the exact same board scores?

Any why would we want to do away with the COMLEX? if anything I would think that we would do away with the USMLE. The COMLEX has all of the osteopathic questions. If you want to go to a DO residency, there is no way of getting out of this.

Personally, I feel that the bottom line is that we should be proud to be Osteopathic medical students. We shouldn't have to convince our allopathic counterparts that we are on the same level. Attempting to do so is only legitimizing their bias.
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Really no other way to say this but some people hate OMM. DOs are at a disadvantage in many specialties and were never truly on a level playing field. However this doesn't mean that the DO student need to "blow them (MDs) out of the water." There is wide variance in the disadvantage.

AOA needs to disappear. I don't want to pay yearly dues to keep my license. I also can't believe they haven't implemented a SOAP system like the ACGME. It's terrible to see colleagues play medical hunger games for residency spots.
 
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It will definitely be interesting to see how this all shakes out. I am sure the AOA saw the writing on the wall. I wonder how soon we will be integrated. I doubt COMLEX goes away anytime soon, but perhaps it will in the not too distant future.
 
scummie said:
Okay, makes more sense! :)

I mean, why would osteopathic residencies, who are supposed to be trying to maintain their osteopathic-ness suddenly be filled with 80%+ filled MDs? That looks terrible on the PDs part. Then you get into the messy licensing debate.
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Right, I wouldn't expect DO programs being filled with 80%+ MDs. But in small fields like ENT with only like 30 spots, having a bunch of MD applicants using DO programs as backups could easily double the amount of applicants to each program. Even with 20% of spots filled by MDs means that many fewer for DOs.

Just a thought.
 
NeuroSpeed said:
I feel like this is great news. Now I'm just hoping they get a single match together for the class of 2016, but that might be a bit greedy.

As far as MD's getting into DO residencies... there is still going to be Osteopathic methods and teaching in those residencies, and a lot of MD students may shy away because of those prerequisites and/or additional competencies they need to be able to meet.
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For some reason I think lots of MD students will apply to the "Osteopathic" residencies. I think for a lot of people the only stigma between MD and DO is the two letters, and if they already have their MD they won't care where they get their residency training as long as it's in their specialty.
 
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piviti said:
Right, I wouldn't expect DO programs being filled with 80%+ MDs. But in small fields like ENT with only like 30 spots, having a bunch of MD applicants using DO programs as backups could easily double the amount of applicants to each program. Even with 20% of spots filled by MDs means that many fewer for DOs.

Just a thought.
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Example: AOA EM, definitely growing in competitiveness. There are about 4-5 spots in most DO programs. Even if 1 MD takes up one of those spots, that's about 20% of the incoming class. For every MD that takes a DO spot, shouldn't there be a DO that takes the correlating MD spot? Or matches into another specialty? Even though MD applicants may use DO programs as back ups, I think most programs would easily see through that. The merger helps to legitimize DOs instead of being viewed as glorified chiropractors.
 
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Spikebd said:
For some reason I think lots of MD students will apply to the "Osteopathic" residencies. I think for a lot of people the only stigma between MD and DO is the two letters, and if they already have their MD they won't care where they get their residency training as long as it's in their specialty.
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That will certainly happen. Just hard to know what the actual numbers will be until it happens. Until then everything, including my predictions, is just conjecture.
 
Also let me make one thing clear: I have no idea how it works in ortho/ent/ophtho... but the worst DO who got into an AOA residency in urology is better than at least 20-25 MDs who got an AUA (MD) residency in urology as far as USMLE score goes. There pretty much won't be any loss of ground in urology to MDs. The MDs all post their scores in a (semi) anonymous list of where everyone went and the bottom 20-ish candidates are well below the lowest DO I know that got in.
 
scummie said:
Example: AOA EM, definitely growing in competitiveness. There are about 4-5 spots in most DO programs. Even if 1 MD takes up one of those spots, that's about 20% of the incoming class. For every MD that takes a DO spot, shouldn't there be a DO that takes the correlating MD spot? Or matches into another specialty? Even though MD applicants may use DO programs as back ups, I think most programs would easily see through that. The merger helps to legitimize DOs instead of being viewed as glorified chiropractors.
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I'm not sure why the DO programs would even care about the MDs using those programs as back ups. Better quality candidate is more important to them than letters following the name and I can easily see them taking more the more qualified MDs over less qualified DOs.
 
Can anyone comment on how this would affect IMG/FMG? I'm a DO student but am just curious.
 
If you are a DO and are worried about an MD taking 'your' spot at in a competitive specialty, then bust your ass and prove you are worthy. Everyone acts like if an MD wants ortho, uro, or ophtho they are just gifted a residency spot. They bust there ass and compete with other MDs for that spot so why can't all the DO students do that? It doesn't make sense to me.

In addition, the current AOA ortho programs and uro programs aren't just going to turn to all-MD class starting in 2016. Maaaaaaybe they will allow an MD in here or there, but it will still be heavily DO biased.
 
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HarryPlopper said:
I can easily see them taking more the more qualified MDs over less qualified DOs.
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Why make a rank list with 25 MDs who don't really want to go to your program? How do you compare qualified MDs to less qualified DOs? Do MDs now have to take the COMLEX? Wouldn't DO PDs who have been in charge of programs for eons take COMLEX scores over USMLE scores? Just like MD programs say "Yeah, sure we accept the COMLEX." really means "Please take the USMLE because we don't want to go through the COMLEX comparison formula and it's easier for us." Obviously you take the more qualified applicant over the less qualified ones, but making that distinction on purely MD vs DO basis from the viewpoint of a DO PD is unrealistic.
 
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