AOA, AACOM, and the ACGME agree to unified accreditation system

[Dr Yiot]

yeah, the acgme definitely doesn't want to let programs shut down, they have even bent some of the rules to keep some EM programs open. It seems like osteopathic programs apply for pre accreditation and become acgme programs immediately (if they meet the requirements).

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[NMDO]

It was my understanding that to become pre accredited they had to submit an application. That's it. Just the submission offers pre-accreditation status. I'm not even sure if the fee is required immediately at the time of accreditation. It also seems (according to the town hall meeting) that the ACGME will go out of their way to make sure programs don't shut down, and even if their app gets rejected initially by the ACGME, they can continue to reapply without paying additional fees through the 5yr deadline.

Yeah this is how I interpreted it from the Town Hall. So hopefully most (all) programs will apply the first year. If some do and some don't, that would lead me to believe that the programs that did apply would participate in ACGME match (as they would be pre accredited), while the ones that did not apply would participate in AOA match.

 

[hallowmann]

I know this is a contentious topic, but I figured it was better to bump this...

So I was reading through the new POMA newsletter, and stumbled upon their resolutions, many of which relate to the merger. Most resolutions are pretty much along the lines of requesting that the AOA halt the merger and withdraw their agreement to the MOU until certain "guarantees" are made.

Fortunately, it seems they agreed on a more diplomatic route that involved requesting that essentially that the AOA submit a copy of the full MOU and any relating correspondence to the member organizations, any decisions on the merger be made before the AOA house of delegates, and that the AOA not make any actions for or against the merger without further info.

What do people think about this? Are there other DO state organizations attempting something similar?

So basically I'm taking away from this that nothing is guaranteed until it happens (I guess I already knew that).

 

[Dharma]

I know this is a contentious topic, but I figured it was better to bump this...

So I was reading through the new POMA newsletter, and stumbled upon their resolutions, many of which relate to the merger. Most resolutions are pretty much along the lines of requesting that the AOA halt the merger and withdraw their agreement to the MOU until certain "guarantees" are made.

Fortunately, it seems they agreed on a more diplomatic route that involved requesting that essentially that the AOA submit a copy of the full MOU and any relating correspondence to the member organizations, any decisions on the merger be made before the AOA house of delegates, and that the AOA not make any actions for or against the merger without further info.

What do people think about this? Are there other DO state organizations attempting something similar?

So basically I'm taking away from this that nothing is guaranteed until it happens (I guess I already knew that).

The powers that be are fighting the inevitable. We have higher ups at our school that are vocally in opposition to the merger and serving up the Kool-aid whenever they get the chance (and I wonder how many students are guzzling away). They see the beginning to the end of the "distinctiveness" hog-wash (which should be determined by an individual's actions not stitched letters), an end to side-door access to competitive specialities ('backdoor' just sounds too sneaky and dirty, unless you're a Doors fan), and as I mentioned at some other point, the phagocytosis of the AOA by the big bad ACGME ("You've been opsonized AOA. MINE!").

My guess is that the process stalls a bit because of the opposition but the result is inevitable. I'm certainly not expecting for anything to be different come match time for my class; those who are, prepare yourselves for disappointment.

We know who has the nut hand in this scenario; some are just in denial of the odds. "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em…" The man is wise. (The man, not THE Man).

 

[BurghStudent]

The powers that be are fighting the inevitable. We have higher ups at our school that are vocally in opposition to the merger and serving up the Kool-aid whenever they get the chance (and I wonder how many students are guzzling away). They see the beginning to the end of the "distinctiveness" hog-wash (which should be determined by an individual's actions not stitched letters), an end to side-door access to competitive specialities ('backdoor' just sounds too sneaky and dirty, unless you're a Doors fan), and as I mentioned at some other point, the phagocytosis of the AOA by the big bad ACGME ("You've been opsonized AOA. MINE!").

My guess is that the process stalls a bit because of the opposition but the result is inevitable. I'm certainly not expecting for anything to be different come match time for my class; those who are, prepare yourselves for disappointment.

We know who has the nut hand in this scenario; some are just in denial of the odds. "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em…" The man is wise. (The man, not THE Man).

I think the best thing that can come from the merger immediately, if the NRMP gets involved, is a combined match. I can't imagine how many excellent DO candidates forgo the MD match for the sake of security. Then, we can really know what the preferences are like among PDs in different specialties.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

A. If you dont get the reference above^ you should listen to Kenny Rogers- The gambler. It will probably change your life.
B. I am praying that some organizations try to delay the merger for at least a few more years. The short term effects of this merger are going to be devastating to the DO grads in the near future. The acgme is going to close some of our programs, and we will have MD and IMGs competing to fill the ones we have left.

Fewer spots and more applicants. The best case scenario is that it gets delayed so our graduating classes the ones involved.

I also feel compelled to remind everyone, that 8 months ago when this topic was first brought up, SDN was begging for this merger and ripping the AOA for dragging their feet. Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing, but when the DO classes of 2015-2020 match rates start to dip, people will realize why they fought this thing.

 

[NurWollen]

A. If you dont get the reference above^ you should listen to Kenny Rogers- The gambler. It will probably change your life.
B. I am praying that some organizations try to delay the merger for at least a few more years. The short term effects of this merger are going to be devastating to the DO grads in the near future. The acgme is going to close some of our programs, and we will have MD and IMGs competing to fill the ones we have left.

Fewer spots and more applicants. The best case scenario is that it gets delayed so our graduating classes the ones involved.

I also feel compelled to remind everyone, that 8 months ago when this topic was first brought up, SDN was begging for this merger and ripping the AOA for dragging their feet. Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing, but when the DO classes of 2015-2020 match rates start to dip, people will realize why they fought this thing.

Where does this idea that there is going to be a mass closure of DO programs come from?

Is it anything but an assumption?
Is there any actual evidence?

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Where does this idea that there is going to be a mass closure of DO programs come from?

Is it anything but an assumption?
Is there any actual evidence?

It's SDN...the epitome of negativity towards anything and everything.

 

[hallowmann]

A. If you dont get the reference above^ you should listen to Kenny Rogers- The gambler. It will probably change your life.
B. I am praying that some organizations try to delay the merger for at least a few more years. The short term effects of this merger are going to be devastating to the DO grads in the near future. The acgme is going to close some of our programs, and we will have MD and IMGs competing to fill the ones we have left.

Fewer spots and more applicants. The best case scenario is that it gets delayed so our graduating classes the ones involved.

I also feel compelled to remind everyone, that 8 months ago when this topic was first brought up, SDN was begging for this merger and ripping the AOA for dragging their feet. Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing, but when the DO classes of 2015-2020 match rates start to dip, people will realize why they fought this thing.

I think that's a premature assessment. For one thing, I'm getting tired of people worrying about IMG competition. Virtually all programs prefer DOs over IMGs. Sure there maybe a handful of exceptions, but its not something for DOs to worry about.

Second, I think the concern about MD competition is overblown. A combined match means being able to apply to many more programs without being afraid of putting all your eggs in one basket. I think even if there is a change in match stats with a merger, it will be minor and realistically the pros and cons will probably even each other out. It might adversely affect some fields, but I think most DOs will benefit.

Third, if things were staying the same delaying the merger might make sense, but seeing how the ACGME is doing the whole closing off fellowships to DOs that do AOA residencies and not counting AOA internships, etc, DOs will lose out if something isn't done soon.

Fourth, its unlikely that DO residencies will be shutdown en masse. Some might, but most won't. More will adhere to ACGME regulations over shutting down completely. There are plenty of bottom barrel ACGME residencies. Something tells me, the ACGME would rather have more member programs than shutdown a ton that are already established.

The main concern DOs might have are (1) DO PDs losing their jobs, (2) some DO organizations becoming pointless with one combined GME, and (3) some of the more competitive fields will get tougher for borderline DOs. That said, gradually more ACGME programs will open up to DOs.

Most people are afraid of change. I get that. Its hard to change and changing the status quo means problems that we might not be able to predict, but the writing's on the wall. Sure it might be worrisome for those of us that will be in the middle of it, but its in the best interest of DOs to take charge of the whole process. We have more to gain by playing an active positive role in the merger. Stonewalling will just make us lose more power/control of the implementation when it finally happens.

 

[hallowmann]

Also, in case it wasn't obvious, 60% of DOs are already competing with MDs every year.

 

[DrEnderW]

The main concern DOs might have are (1) DO PDs losing their jobs

In your experience, have you heard from anyone with this concern? I would love to hear some DO PDs opinion on this.

It's absolutely a theoretical potential concern but I am wondering if people that have been running these community hospital programs will be thrown out just so the director can have MD after his name. It seems unrealistic, though possible.

 

[hallowmann]

In your experience, have you heard from anyone with this concern? I would love to hear some DO PDs opinion on this.

It's absolutely a theoretical potential concern but I am wondering if people that have been running these community hospital programs will be thrown out just so the director can have MD after his name. It seems unrealistic, though possible.

I've heard this from a lot of the older DOs, no PDs, but I also don't talk to any DO PDs on a regular basis.

It seems like a real concern for them (the older DOs). The ACGME has repeatedly said that they will work with the AOA and programs, but its obvious they've been dodgy about that specific issue. All they seem to have committed to saying is that programs could have a MD and DO be co-PDs (as being board certified - or is it completing an ACGME residency?? I guess they're related - by the MD boards is apparently a requirement for being an ACGME PD). The truth is though, that programs won't want to pay 2 people to do the same job, so since they'll be ACGME accredited, it'll be easier to drop the DO.

This is really only a concern for the current DO PDs that aren't MD boarded, because given time, every DO will have the opportunity to be MD boarded (all will complete ACGME programs). If we fight for some sort of grandfather clause for those DOs, I think that's reasonable, but not worth halting the merger over.

And again, I think DOs will have a stronger sway in the matter if they in a united way say, we all want the merger to go through, but we need X guarantees. Acting defensive and completely rejecting it will just make us lose more control over the process, because ultimately we have more to lose by it falling through than the ACGME does.

 

[DrEnderW]

All they seem to have committed to saying is that programs could have a MD and DO be co-PDs (as being board certified - or is it completing an ACGME residency?? I guess they're related - by the MD boards is apparently a requirement for being an ACGME PD).

Thanks for the response - I actually didn't think of that and it makes obvious, perfect sense.

That could potentially be a huge problem for the GS, surg-subspecialty, derm, etc AOA programs. I am hoping these types of issues get sorted out. There's a multitude of other ACGME rules that would be hard to implement in smaller community hospitals with no active research component.

 

[hallowmann]

Thanks for the response - I actually didn't think of that and it makes obvious, perfect sense.

That could potentially be a huge problem for the GS, surg-subspecialty, derm, etc AOA programs. I am hoping these types of issues get sorted out. There's a multitude of other ACGME rules that would be hard to implement in smaller community hospitals with no active research component.

That's the thing, there's definitely stuff that needs to be worked out (just like any big change). But if we spend all the time and resources arguing amongst ourselves over whether or not to take the first step, we'll lose any power over the process, because it will happen, its just a matter of time.

 

[NurWollen]

I think that's a premature assessment. For one thing, I'm getting tired of people worrying about IMG competition. Virtually all programs prefer DOs over IMGs. Sure there maybe a handful of exceptions, but its not something for DOs to worry about.

Second, I think the concern about MD competition is overblown. A combined match means being able to apply to many more programs without being afraid of putting all your eggs in one basket. I think even if there is a change in match stats with a merger, it will be minor and realistically the pros and cons will probably even each other out. It might adversely affect some fields, but I think most DOs will benefit.

Third, if things were staying the same delaying the merger might make sense, but seeing how the ACGME is doing the whole closing off fellowships to DOs that do AOA residencies and not counting AOA internships, etc, DOs will lose out if something isn't done soon.

Fourth, its unlikely that DO residencies will be shutdown en masse. Some might, but most won't. More will adhere to ACGME regulations over shutting down completely. There are plenty of bottom barrel ACGME residencies. Something tells me, the ACGME would rather have more member programs than shutdown a ton that are already established.

The main concern DOs might have are (1) DO PDs losing their jobs, (2) some DO organizations becoming pointless with one combined GME, and (3) some of the more competitive fields will get tougher for borderline DOs. That said, gradually more ACGME programs will open up to DOs.

Most people are afraid of change. I get that. Its hard to change and changing the status quo means problems that we might not be able to predict, but the writing's on the wall. Sure it might be worrisome for those of us that will be in the middle of it, but its in the best interest of DOs to take charge of the whole process. We have more to gain by playing an active positive role in the merger. Stonewalling will just make us lose more power/control of the implementation when it finally happens.

Very true. The AOA doesn't have a monopoly on FM residencies at 100-bed hospitals in small towns. Also, if you look at the accreditation requirements for ACGME residencies vs. AOA residencies, they're not always that different. A lot of the differences in fact involve minutiae and esoteric random regulations that should be easy to fix.

 

[user3]

the agreement was for preliminary accreditation beginning July 2015 with a 5 yr deadline for obtaining full accred. so is this too up in the air right now?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Jesus, i said "the acgme will close some of our programs" and that was interpreted as "a mass closure"....

Im not making any radical argument here, im just saying that the BEST case scenario in the next few years is no change for us. A more realistic scenario is fewer spots for an increasing pool of grads as well as no DO safety net

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Im also not speculating, these are the facts

 

[BrawnsNBrain]

Sent some of you messages. Here are some thoughts:

From the ACGME standpoint, they're essentially gaining residency spots by merging for their MD graduates. Those MD Graduates now take the more competitive AOA spots i.e. neuro, gen surg, ENT, etc.. and result in DOs only being limited to primary care specialties because the competitive surgeries are dominated by MDs. Nothing limits the program directors from only taking MD candidates to those competitive residencies. i.e. I know a school on the north east coast (I think NJ?) that has approval for 1 md and 1 do neuro resident. When the merger occurs, nothing stops them from taking 2 MD neuro residents and shafting the DO candidates.

I know some of you mentioned the DO PDs will not suddenly choose MD candidates over DOs for their residencies, but as @hallowmann pointed out, DO PDs could lose their jobs because ACGME requires PDs to have completed ACGME residency (source: hallowmann). With DO PDs out of the picture there is literally nothing stopping PDs from taking only MD candidates to specialty programs and leaving primary care in the hands of the DO.

Thoughts? Am I missing key information?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

^ thats correct. The terms of the merger state that no current AOA PD is guaranteed to keep their position during the acgme review of our residency programs. That doesnt mean they will all get axed though, The lower quality programs that are on the fence of gaining acgme approval will probably have new PDs appointed.

 

[SurgeDO]

Sent some of you messages. Here are some thoughts:

From the ACGME standpoint, they're essentially gaining residency spots by merging for their MD graduates. Those MD Graduates now take the more competitive AOA spots i.e. neuro, gen surg, ENT, etc.. and result in DOs only being limited to primary care specialties because the competitive surgeries are dominated by MDs. Nothing limits the program directors from only taking MD candidates to those competitive residencies. i.e. I know a school on the north east coast (I think NJ?) that has approval for 1 md and 1 do neuro resident. When the merger occurs, nothing stops them from taking 2 MD neuro residents and shafting the DO candidates.

I know some of you mentioned the DO PDs will not suddenly choose MD candidates over DOs for their residencies, but as @hallowmann pointed out, DO PDs could lose their jobs because ACGME requires PDs to have completed ACGME residency (source: hallowmann). With DO PDs out of the picture there is literally nothing stopping PDs from taking only MD candidates to specialty programs and leaving primary care in the hands of the DO.

Thoughts? Am I missing key information?

if it came down to DO PDs losing all their positions over this, i can almost guarantee the AOA will back out of the merger. the reason why the AOA originally backed out of the merger was for this exact reason. DO PDs are not going anywhere.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Sent some of you messages. Here are some thoughts:

From the ACGME standpoint, they're essentially gaining residency spots by merging for their MD graduates. Those MD Graduates now take the more competitive AOA spots i.e. neuro, gen surg, ENT, etc.. and result in DOs only being limited to primary care specialties because the competitive surgeries are dominated by MDs. Nothing limits the program directors from only taking MD candidates to those competitive residencies. i.e. I know a school on the north east coast (I think NJ?) that has approval for 1 md and 1 do neuro resident. When the merger occurs, nothing stops them from taking 2 MD neuro residents and shafting the DO candidates.

I know some of you mentioned the DO PDs will not suddenly choose MD candidates over DOs for their residencies, but as @hallowmann pointed out, DO PDs could lose their jobs because ACGME requires PDs to have completed ACGME residency (source: hallowmann). With DO PDs out of the picture there is literally nothing stopping PDs from taking only MD candidates to specialty programs and leaving primary care in the hands of the DO.

Thoughts? Am I missing key information?

You make it seem as if DO's haven't been able to match ACGME spots in the past. Over 40 DO's matched general surgery in 2014 and I would be the number could have significantly higher had those who matched AOA spots decided to take their chances and only apply for the nrmp match.

Do you really think that if current AOA PD's are replaced by ACGME ones these programs will suddenly start taking MD's over DO's regardless of their USMLE score?

 

[GUH]

...That said, gradually more ACGME programs will open up to DOs...

I want to believe this. Is there any evidence of this at all? Or is it merely hopeful speculation?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Fourth, its unlikely that DO residencies will be shutdown en masse. Some might, but most won't. More will adhere to ACGME regulations over shutting down completely. There are plenty of bottom barrel ACGME residencies. Something tells me, the ACGME would rather have more member programs than shutdown a ton that are already established.

In the long run we will benefit. I am talking about the very immediate future.

The AOA will lose some programs. This is a fact. There will be a percentage of programs that dont come up to par with ACGME standards. This is not something they will choose to do. There will be programs that dont have the option of adhering to ACGME regulations.

I'm not saying "en masse" though. . There are ~750 AOA residency progams with an average of ~4 seats per program. If only 5% are delayed in gaining accreditation by 1 year, that graduating class loses 150 seats. Yes in the big picture that is a small amount, but I dont want to be in the graduating class that has to deal with that stress.

 

[NurWollen]

I want to believe this. Is there any evidence of this at all? Or is it merely hopeful speculation?

IIRC, from the match list thread, it seems several DOs matched at places they never had before. The rumor was that residents had even told DO students that their program was more willing to rank DOs because of the merger. That's obviously a lot of hearsay and supposition, but hopefully it's a start.

 

[hallowmann]

I want to believe this. Is there any evidence of this at all? Or is it merely hopeful speculation?

Its the same trend that has been happening for many years. With more DOs applying to more ACGME residencies (something that will happen with a merger), only more places will open up to DOs.

Having a DO open a door in one residency will mean that the program will be more open to taking DOs later. I've seen it happen. In any case, the merger won't eliminate bias, but its illogical to think DOs will experience more bias after the merger.

If anything, failing to merge and allowing the ACGME to make OGME look inferior will create an even lower impression of DOs to ACGME programs. DOs who hope to subspecialize will also see AOA residencies as a dead end.

 

[BurghStudent]

3 DOs matched ACGME neurosurgery, more than any time in the past 4 years.

 

[DrEnderW]

I want to believe this. Is there any evidence of this at all? Or is it merely hopeful speculation?

I guess hopeful speculation would be combined with the fact that the most competitive DO applicants going to AOA residencies could apply to ACGME programs. By having more top applicants applying to these programs, you'd think more could match because of higher numbers of studying applying with more competitive apps.

 

[NurWollen]

Its the same trend that has been happening for many years. With more DOs applying to more ACGME residencies (something that will happen with a merger), only more places will open up to DOs.

Having a DO open a door in one residency will mean that the program will be more open to taking DOs later. I've seen it happen. In any case, the merger won't eliminate bias, but its illogical to think DOs will experience more bias after the merger.

If anything, failing to merge and allowing the ACGME to make OGME look inferior will create an even lower impression of DOs to ACGME programs. DOs who hope to subspecialize will also see AOA residencies as a dead end.

Exactly!! Not to mention, if there are some AOA programs that fail to meet ACGME standards, well, why would we want to go to those programs anyway? There are risks with the merger, yes, but hanging on to poor quality programs as a layer of security isn't going to win us any minds in the ACGME world. It will make discrimination worse, not better.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Failing to merge would mean practically nothing to the ACGME program directors actually. A good amount of the MD world has no idea that this is even going on.

Edit: there are over 9 thousand ACGME progams. Very few of them know and care about the AOA's 750. Keep in mind that from the perspective of a current ACGME PD, the merger is absolutely meaningless.

 

[Apprands31]

But aren't most of the older PDs nearing retirement? Aren't the younger ones ACGME trained or have other jobs? Aren't there currently DO ACGME trained surgeons? This smells like a selfish power to prevent the inevitable .

 

[DrEnderW]

But aren't most of the older PDs nearing retirement? Aren't the younger ones ACGME trained or have other jobs? Aren't there currently DO ACGME trained surgeons? This smells like a selfish power to prevent the inevitable .

I don't think it's a selfish power move at all.

There are thousands of AOA trained physicians and essentially all DO surgeons are AOA trained. There aren't enough ACGME DO trained surgeons (especially when most are in PP and wouldn't want to be PDs anyways) to fill the PD spots. The same can be said for derm. It would be very unfortunate if MD PDs took over the most competitive DO residency positions and then stopped ranking DOs.

 

[NontradCA]

I don't think it's a selfish power move at all.

There are thousands of AOA trained physicians and essentially all DO surgeons are AOA trained. There aren't enough ACGME DO trained surgeons (especially when most are in PP and wouldn't want to be PDs anyways) to fill the PD spots. The same can be said for derm. It would be very unfortunate if MD PDs took over the most competitive DO residency positions and then stopped ranking DOs.

This seems unlikely. Aren't these programs in hospitals with a large percentage of DOs? I could see your argument if they were in primarily ACGME residency hospitals, but they aren't. It's not like the PDs will come from the "MD world" and be PDs at DOs like new management.

 

[Apprands31]

This seems unlikely. Aren't these programs in hospitals with a large percentage of DOs? I could see your argument if they were in primarily ACGME residency hospitals, but they aren't. It's not like the PDs will come from the "MD world" and be PDs at DOs like new management.

This seems unlikely. Aren't these programs in hospitals with a large percentage of DOs? I could see your argument if they were in primarily ACGME residency hospitals, but they aren't. It's not like the PDs will come from the "MD world" and be PDs at DOs like new management.

Yes, and what's stopping the DO hospitals from hiring ACGME trained DO PDs? Like others have mentioned prior, there are ACGME trained DO surgeons, derms, rads etc in practice already. I'm sure there will be some that will be willing to be a PD.

 

[GUH]

Yes, and what's stopping the DO hospitals from hiring ACGME trained DO PDs? Like others have mentioned prior, there are ACGME trained DO surgeons, derms, rads etc in practice already. I'm sure there will be some that will be willing to be a PD.

There are a lot less of them.

And why do you think it's good to ban AOA-trained DO's from being PD's?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

There are a lot less of them.

And why do you think it's good to ban AOA-trained DO's from being PD's?

.....nobody is banning aoa trained pds. Since all gme will be accredited by the ACGME, as far as terminology goes, all DOs will be "acgme trained".

 

[Apprands31]

.....nobody is banning aoa trained pds. Since all gme will be accredited by the ACGME, as far as terminology goes, all DOs will be "acgme trained".

Exactly, once the merger happens everyone is ACGME trained.

 

[DrEnderW]

This seems unlikely. Aren't these programs in hospitals with a large percentage of DOs? I could see your argument if they were in primarily ACGME residency hospitals, but they aren't. It's not like the PDs will come from the "MD world" and be PDs at DOs like new management.

I think you misread what I was trying to say. I was refuting someone else's point.

What I was trying to say is that if the current ACGME regulations stand that say PDs must be board certified by the ACGME, AOA trained PDs would be ineligible. I don't think this will happen and isn't my idea but others were discussing it as a potential drawback. My opinion is that if this happened, it would not be a "power move" to fight this because must of the most competitive AOA residencies (essentially all surgs and derm) are ran by AOA trained PDs.

I hopefully agree this won't happen.

 

[DrEnderW]

Exactly, once the merger happens everyone is ACGME trained.

The discussion brought about by others is regarding if those previously trained in AOA residencies without the currently required board certification will be grandfathered in or not and be eligible to be PDs. Of course, once the merger happens everyone will be ACGME trained but that's not the source of concern.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

The discussion brought about by others is regarding if those previously trained in AOA residencies without the currently required board certification will be grandfathered in or not and be eligible to be PDs. Of course, once the merger happens everyone will be ACGME trained but that's not the source of concern.

I am sure that everyone will be grandfathered into acgme certification. If not, there would be a huge number of DO grads who are in the "transition phase" of the re-accreditation process who would be AOA certified and then ineligible for fellowships. I am purely speculating here, but that would be a huge oversight if they didn't grandfather in the past AOA grads.

 

[GUH]

...I am purely speculating here, but that would be a huge oversight if they didn't grandfather in the past AOA grads.

Yes, it would. But there is no mention of any grandfather clause for current AOA PD's. At best it will allow fellowship training for current AOA residents.

 

[Apprands31]

I am sure that everyone will be grandfathered into acgme certification. If not, there would be a huge number of DO grads who are in the "transition phase" of the re-accreditation process who would be AOA certified and then ineligible for fellowships. I am purely speculating here, but that would be a huge oversight if they didn't grandfather in the past AOA grads.

If everyone will be *grandfathered* then why the opposition from the *old guard*? With the merger, there will be no confusion about the training. DOs and MDs will be the same and more training programs will be available.

 

[GUH]

If everyone will be *grandfathered* then why the opposition from the *old guard*? With the merger, there will be no confusion about the training. DOs and MDs will be the same and more training programs will be available.

There is no mention of current AOA Program Directors being grandfathered in and counted as equals with ACGME-trained physicians.

 

[Apprands31]

Yes, it would. But there is no mention of any grandfather clause for current AOA PD's. At best it will allow fellowship training for current AOA residents.

OK, maybe I'm slow , but reading this thread and other threads on the merger, I'm lead to believe that everyone will be *grandfathered* into ACGME.

 

[Apprands31]

There is no mention of current AOA Program Directors being grandfathered in and counted as equals with ACGME-trained physicians.

If the merger goes through does that mean current AOA boarded docs will no longer be considered *board certified*?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

If the merger goes through does that mean current AOA boarded docs will no longer be considered *board certified*?

Just wondering, why are you saying "if the merger goes through"? I thought the merger has already been agreed on and it will take effect gradually starting next match. It's the matter of when, rather than if, I think. Some AOA residencies will be more resistant than others and will do their best to hold the status quo until the last minute (2020), but we should start seeing the conversion of AOA programs into ACGME within the next 2 years.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

If everyone will be *grandfathered* then why the opposition from the *old guard*? With the merger, there will be no confusion about the training. DOs and MDs will be the same and more training programs will be available.

What is the old guard? If you mean the AOA, that has been discussed already.

And where would more training programs come from?

 

[NontradCA]

I think you misread what I was trying to say. I was refuting someone else's point.

What I was trying to say is that if the current ACGME regulations stand that say PDs must be board certified by the ACGME, AOA trained PDs would be ineligible. I don't think this will happen and isn't my idea but others were discussing it as a potential drawback. My opinion is that if this happened, it would not be a "power move" to fight this because must of the most competitive AOA residencies (essentially all surgs and derm) are ran by AOA trained PDs.

I hopefully agree this won't happen.

No that wasn't what I was saying. I said that if MDs do become program directors they aren't going to shut out DOs. The institutions that these programs are at are primarily DO. The directors of GME are DO.

 

[GUH]

No that wasn't what I was saying. I said that if MDs do become program directors they aren't going to shut out DOs...

Directors of GME are not the sole arbiters of who gets admitted. Forcing programs to have a ABMS-certified PD will almost certainly result in MD's being admitted to these programs, while there is no reciprocity on the other side in terms of forcing osteopathic representation at current ACGME programs.

 

[NontradCA]

Directors of GME are not the sole arbiters of who gets admitted. Forcing programs to have a ABMS-certified PD will almost certainly result in MD's being admitted to these programs, while there is no reciprocity on the other side in terms of forcing osteopathic representation at current ACGME programs.

I think there will be MDs admitted to the programs with DO or MD PDs. It's kind of loony to insinuate that someone is going to take a position at a primarily DO hospital to shut DOs out of programs.