Is AOA pretty much required (although it's possible to match without it, at least 80-90% of successful matches were AOA) for most of the top 20 ortho programs, eg. Hospital for Joint Disease, Barnes Jewish, UCLA, NY Presbyterian Columbia/Cornell?
AOA required for top 20 programs?
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It was a random number to give as an example. What I meant was "the vast majority".
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So you're saying "the vast majority" of successful matches at "top 20" programs were AOA. Where are you finding this information?
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If you want to know, I think it'd be possible to go onto AOA's website and search the names of the current residents at the institutions you're interested in.
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It is not required. It certainly helps you get a butt load of interviews, but not required. The full package of a competitive step 1 240+, good letters, solid research, and a strong away rotation can get you into most top 20 programs.
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Cornell Presby is really HSS which has a strict 255 STEP cutoff and 100% AOA (most at top 20 schools). HJD is pretty close to this too. Not all "top 20" programs are equal in terms of competitiveness.
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This is false.
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Agreed. Heard rumors of a 250 cut off, but I doubt that too. Plenty of programs in FREIDA list a 240 step 1 cut-off, and there's no reason why HSS wouldn't list 250+ if it was actually true. Fact is, if they think you're the next freddie fu they'll take you with your "measly" 248...
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A lot of programs with high screens don't list it. I know for a fact that MGH neurosurgery is 250 and they don't list it either. If they thought you could be a big shot in the field they would already know of you and pull your app manually (I'm sure some Weill students who know their leadership get this benefit).
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More likely, they ascertain that you'll be a big shot from the rest of your app. Either way, this is the basis for my objection to the "strict" cut off you mentioned.
A lot of programs, eh? Are you spending a lot of time with program directors from across the country in orthopedics and neurosurgery as a soon-to-be MS-1? Not trying to put you on blast, but this is how these odd rumors get started. Even if you heard these rumors from a recently matched MS-4, they're often misinformed and prone to exaggerate the competitiveness of their match year.
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My older brother went to HMS and matched MGH neurosurgery. Most of what I know comes from him. I agree that a lot of people likely exaggerate these kinds of things though. The 255/100% AOA for HSS I read somewhere on SDN so I definitely can't vouch for that. I'd bet that the average for those who matched there is not far from that though simply because it's a top program in one of the most competitive specialties in perhaps one of THE most desirable locations. Again, I can't say this with certainty, but it doesn't seem unreasonable.
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Agreed. But ortho residency is a strange beast, because a lot of top applicants are wary of the operative experience at heavily academic residencies (which may or may not be warranted-- tough to say). If you browse orthogate, there's a palpable bias against the academic places like Harvard, HSS, Rush, and Jeff. Also, according to the residents and orthopaedic surgeons that I've spoken to, you generally have the same fellowship opportunities coming out of HSS as you would from a non-"top 20" residency. There are just a lot of excellent ortho fellowship spots available, and most people get what they want if they perform well during residency. With few exceptions, all ortho residency programs are pretty darn good.
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I personally know a resident at HSS who was not AOA and had high 230s on step 1. He had a strong application with no weak spots, but did not need these video game numbers to match there.
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I know someone from my college who got into HMS and Hopkins with a 3.7 and 31 MCAT (non urm and no crazy ECs). Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible but it's not *likey*. Most people can't get in with those numbers. It's impossible to know who had what connections and where. I was never a fan of giving people false hope at the college and med school levels based on a few anecdotes (maybe residency is different idk).
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I'm a current 2nd year interested in ortho, and I also heard about the 250 cutoff for HSS.
But there are plenty of examples of residents who are at top programs without these dream stats.
My older brother is an ortho resident at Rush, and he had a 241 step, no AOA, but he made up for it with 25+ publications during a research year between MS3 and MS4
But there are plenty of examples of residents who are at top programs without these dream stats.
My older brother is an ortho resident at Rush, and he had a 241 step, no AOA, but he made up for it with 25+ publications during a research year between MS3 and MS4
