AOA Residency...

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docman85

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Ok, I have been wondering this for a while... If a resident completes a AOA residency as opposed to a ACGME residency are there any limitations to their license? Meaning are there certain hospitals that will not hire them because they completed an AOA residency?

I am not trying to discuss AOA vs. ACGME but more the limitations if any of doing an AOA residency...

thanks

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Ok, I have been wondering this for a while... If a resident completes a AOA residency as opposed to a ACGME residency are there any limitations to their license? Meaning are there certain hospitals that will not hire them because they completed an AOA residency?

I am not trying to discuss AOA vs. ACGME but more the limitations if any of doing an AOA residency...

thanks


Usually you are hired by a group that provides services to the hospital(s). So thier may be groups out there that discriminate. However, I belive that it is becoming more rare. I guess it would depend on the specialty? I EM, I don't know if it exists at all... maybe somewhere but as a resident I have had recruiters come from all ovet the country. I am at a dually accredited program though.
But I don't think anyone cares, if you know how to take care of patinets and you get along well with the others in your group than I don't know anyone who cares... Just to note it is illegal to discriminate against DO for jobs in all 50 states... The reverse is not true, and it kind of ticks me off a little. I know a large, very good EM group that openly states they prefer DO's and don't have a single MD on staff.... that sucks. When you are in a specailty... everyone is in that specialty together. Note that a lot of "MD's" are actually MBBS from other counties that got can leagally call themselves MD's. I really don't care what your degree is... a good doc is a good doc.
 
You're "license" (to practice medicine) is provided through the individual state(s) you practice in a/o choose to have a license from. All states grant medical licenses to DOs and while different states have different requirements as to training needed for a license (i.e. obtainable after pgy-1 or requiring 2-3 years of training prior to issuance of license) it does not matter whether you are doing an AOA or ACGME residency or what specialty you are training in.
I think the spirit of the question in your post is: "Will board certification though the ABMS (Am. Board of Med. Specialties) or AOA be recognized universally?" I would imagine the answer to be yes, but I have no reference to a specific statute saying as much. The unanswerable question will be whether, especially on a regional level, will all hospitals have no preference of ABMS or AOA. There are far too many hospitals to have an interest in inquiring of every one. But if you had long term aspirations of ending up in "X" hospital or "X" city, you could always call recruiting and ask if they accept AOA residency training or strongly have a preference for board certification through the ABMS.
 
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It just depends on the area. If a state has a well-established DO school then their probably won't be any issue. If they don't then, yes, there is discrimination against graduates of DO residency programs.
 
Thanks guys for the responses, I know this is something I probably shouldn't be concerned with but it was just one of those questions that I was curious about. I have worked in an ER for the past 3 years and I am pretty set on becoming an ER doc (no call, diverse working environment, able to do a few procedures...) however I know that most people change their minds in med school so I am keeping a very open mind and am really looking for to starting med school this fall!!!

My question that I previously asked stemed from a physician I know who graduated from LECOM and did his res at UF in EM, he told me to make sure I took the USMLE and went to a ACGME res.
 
Thanks guys for the responses, I know this is something I probably shouldn't be concerned with ....

Yes it is absolutely something you should be concerned with. You are going to go into some serious debt getting your education and you should make the most informed decision you can before you sign up.

DO discrimination is a reality, I think it is all too often glossed over here on SDN. The fact is that there are many training programs in all specialties that you will not be able to get into if you go to a DO school. There are also groups who will not entertain the idea of hiring a DO. Within the last year there was a minor conflagration regarding a hospital in Idaho that would not give privileges to osteopthic-boarded docs.

If you are sure you want to do EM, then I would go to any MD school over any DO school if possible. If you are not sure what you will want to do in a couple of years (and many/most people change there mind at some point) I would also recommend going to an MD school over a DO school.

If you are absolutely convinced that you want to incorporate osteopathy into your practice in the future, and are completely sold on the efficacy of OMM, then that's where I would recommend someone go to a DO school over an MD school. That being said, be aware of the possibility that you will become skeptical and unenthusiastic about OMM the more you learn about it.
 
It varies by state, though. In my home state of Oklahoma, EM is ran by DOs and you would be much better off going to a DO school if you wished to do your residency and practice EM in Oklahoma.
 
I worked in a huge academic hospital in LA for two years that was headed by a DO?? My grandfather also lives in Idaho and has personally had several DO doctors. This 'ohh there is huge discrimination' vs ' you can land an ACGME integrated plastics residency is you apply to DO friendly programs' **** seems to flux like mad on here. I seriously think it changes with people having bad days etc.
 
I worked in a huge academic hospital in LA for two years that was headed by a DO?? My grandfather also lives in Idaho and has personally had several DO doctors. This 'ohh there is huge discrimination' vs ' you can land an ACGME integrated plastics residency is you apply to DO friendly programs' **** seems to flux like mad on here. I seriously think it changes with people having bad days etc.

Heh indeed. Remember all the similar disagreements people like us encountered when we applied to medical school? "Research really matters" vs "research doesn't matter at all". "A great MCAT score will help make up for a lousy GPA" vs "no it won't". "You really need the committee letter" vs "no you don't", etc etc. One of the biggest conclusions I drew from that experience was that most people who had gone through the application process seemed to use a very specific strategy and had very strongly held beliefs about which of their attributes allowed them to gain acceptance. After they were accepted, they then seemed to think that their strategies/attributes were the only ones that were relevant when it came to getting into med school. This line of thinking was further complicated by the fact that medical schools seem to have wildly varying preferences in what they want to see in their candidates - thus allowing very different types of candidates to be successfully admitted. Then, because some of these very unique candidates were often able to spot other similar candidates that were successfully admitted, they used these candidates as "evidence" to "prove" that their perspectives were the only ones that could be correct (aka confirmation bias!). For instance, how many times did we hear about somebody with no patient experience who somehow got admitted to medical school and then claimed that most other people he dealt with hadn't had any either?

I'd imagine the same thing happens with residency admission. For instance, while there are certainly some old-school ACGME residency directors who don't have any intention of ever admitting DOs, there also appear to be some younger ones that are open to the idea. There are obviously some DO candidates who are successful at getting into competitive ACGME residencies...and there are some that aren't. Some hospitals appear to discriminate against DOs, but others don't etc etc. It seems to be largely about the specifics of the situation rather than any major national "trends".

(On top of it all, you also can't be sure if some of the people who post on these boards are who they say they are, or if they're even deliberately trying to spread misinformation. I'm not accusing anybody specifically, but when I was reading these boards during the application process I quickly learned to double-check any information I encountered here against other sources because a lot of things people said seemed to be rather off-base.)
 
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Heh indeed. Remember all the similar disagreements people like us encountered when we applied to medical school? "Research really matters" vs "research doesn't matter at all". "A great MCAT score will help make up for a lousy GPA" vs "no it won't". "You really need the committee letter" vs "no you don't", etc etc. One of the biggest conclusions I drew from that experience was that most people who had gone through the application process seemed to use a very specific strategy and had very strongly held beliefs about which of their attributes allowed them to gain acceptance. After they were accepted, they then seemed to think that their strategies/attributes were the only ones that were relevant when it came to getting into med school. This line of thinking was further complicated by the fact that medical schools seem to have wildly varying preferences in what they want to see in their candidates - thus allowing very different types of candidates to be successfully admitted. Then, because some of these very unique candidates were often able to spot other similar candidates that were successfully admitted, they used these candidates as "evidence" to "prove" that their perspectives were the only ones that could be correct (aka confirmation bias!). For instance, how many times did we hear about somebody with no patient experience who somehow got admitted to medical school and then claimed that most other people he dealt with hadn't had any either?

I'd imagine the same thing happens with residency admission. For instance, while there are certainly some old-school ACGME residency directors who don't have any intention of ever admitting DOs, there also appear to be some younger ones that are open to the idea. There are obviously some DO candidates who are successful at getting into competitive ACGME residencies...and there are some that aren't. Some hospitals appear to discriminate against DOs, but others don't etc etc. It seems to be largely about the specifics of the situation rather than any major national "trends".

(On top of it all, you also can't be sure if some of the people who post on these boards are who they say they are, or if they're even deliberately trying to spread misinformation. I'm not accusing anybody specifically, but when I was reading these boards during the application process I quickly learned to double-check any information I encountered here against other sources because a lot of things people said seemed to be rather off-base.)

Good post. I've also learned through my 2 years on SDN is that everything must be taken with a grain of salt. You can drive yourself crazy taking all the advice and opinions to heart.
 
Ok, I have been wondering this for a while... If a resident completes a AOA residency as opposed to a ACGME residency are there any limitations to their license? Meaning are there certain hospitals that will not hire them because they completed an AOA residency?

I am not trying to discuss AOA vs. ACGME but more the limitations if any of doing an AOA residency...

thanks

Its in your best interest to worry about the first 2 years of med school, boards and then start contemplating your residency options. Also i would advise against giving up a possible spot in your desired specialty just because it is AOA trust me you much rather get your residency than worry about its distinctions. If i had to guess by the time you graduate from your residency, a lot of trends would have already shifted in your favor. Hope it helps...
 
Good post. I've also learned through my 2 years on SDN is that everything must be taken with a grain of salt. You can drive yourself crazy taking all the advice and opinions to heart.

While this is true, it may lead to complacency. For those of you who want to follow the examples of successful DO's landing desirable residencies or being the CEO of an academic institution, don't think they got there by just rolling the dice. They are unique, highly intelligent and dynamic people who have a lot to offer. In some way they are the cream of the crop, whether it be board scores, research, an innovative mind, or unbridled dedication to medicine.
 
While this is true, it may lead to complacency. For those of you who want to follow the examples of successful DO's landing desirable residencies or being the CEO of an academic institution, don't think they got there by just rolling the dice. They are unique, highly intelligent and dynamic people who have a lot to offer. In some way they are the cream of the crop, whether it be board scores, research, an innovative mind, or unbridled dedication to medicine.

:clap:

Absolutely.
 
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