AOA Urology: a Review

[TallScrubs]

Greetings all. As many of you have noticed, there is a paucity of information available regarding AOA urology residency programs. There are several informative threads on this forum and on urologymatch.com, however, they are several years old and, frankly, a little outdated. I have asked some recently matched students for program reviews so that you may better navigate the process. Anyone who has rotated somewhere, please, feel free to email me the review and I will anonymously post them here.

Here is some of my general advice:

1) Boards: one of those AOA-made match-thingies several years ago said that the average COMLEX 1 for matched urology applicants was 550. My things have changed. Not everybody is reporting, but it seems the average is up to ~640. Do well on boards is all that I have to say.

2) Research: becoming more and more important. Get whatever you can. Urology research is best, but any research proves that you have an interest and know some methods

3) Audtions: it's the AOA world, as such, it is important to rotate at as many places as possible so that you can interview. Month-long auditions are nice, but two week auditions work pretty damn well.

I will now start to post some of the anonymous reviews that I have received already. Enjoy, and feel free to ask questions

Also, here is the template for reviews:

Program:
Positions in 2015:

General:

Attendings:

Residents:

Didactics:

Research:

Operative Experience:

Clinic Experience:

AOA/ACGME merger:

Pros:

Cons:

Contact:



-TallScrubs

**UPDATE: NEW PROGRAM**

This new program has been in the works for awhile. 2 positions available at Hahnemann University Hospital/PCOM OPTI. PD will be former Einstein APD, Dr. Belkoff. Will cover HUH and Mercy Hospitals, 6 months peds at St. Chris. Please see program info on AOA opportunities page

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[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS


Program: Detroit Medical Center (DMC)
Positions in 2015: 3

General: Something important about this program: you won’t die if you go to Detroit. I know people avoided this program because, well, it’s Detroit. Downtown isn’t bad at all and the surrounding suburbs are amongst the nicest and affluent I’ve seen. I was, admittedly, dreading going to Motor city but was very pleasantly surprised. I stayed in Royal Oak (which by the way, is THE place to stay during rotation—very central to everything)

Program is relatively large and covers quite a few hospitals: Detroit Receiving Hospital (DRH; this is where Dr. Santucci operates), Harper University Hospital, Children’s Hospital of Michigan, Garden City, McLaren-Pontiac, Garden City, St. Joe’s, and Sinai Grace

Something unique about this program is that during chief year you can do a month-long rotation abroad fully paid for by the program—just one of the benefits of going to a program with tons of money.

Attendings: PD- Kenneth Lim, DO, APD- Richard Santucci, MD; Pretty sure there are two large groups, but they all work together pretty well. Very diverse crowd of fellowship- and non-fellowship-trained physicians. Everyone knows Dr. Santucci (well-renowned Trauma and Recon surgeon).

Residents: Due to a freak of scheduling, I spent most of my time with just a couple of the many residents and I really enjoyed my time with them. Residents are a very, very diverse group: single, married, kids, kidless….you get it. I get the impression that they’re not as close as they could be simply since they’re spread out relatively thin.

Didactics: Conferences every Wednesday morning with decent attending turnout. Similar didactics as other places—nothing poor or extraordinarily awesome.

Research: Every resident must complete a project each year with graduated responsibility (i.e. case report as intern à prospective study as chief). Santucci is HUGE into research and helps residents out as much as possible.

Operative experience: Since the program is so spread out, a resident covers a hospital themselves and does all the cases. This is the only place where I saw pgy-1 doing TURPS, ureteroscopies, etc by themselves. Robotics is not super strong at this point but they are putting more of an emphasis on it. No paucity of cases when I was there.

Excellent trauma/recon (best out of any program I was at) although the residents only spend 1 month there as intern and 1 month as a pgy-4…just wish they had a little more time with him. That being said, Santucci has said himself he expects all of his residents to be able to perform relatively simply urethroplasties starting day 1 as an attending.

Very good pediatrics at CHM—2 months as junior as a three and 2 months a senior as a four

Clinic experience: Not really sure what clinic experience they get

AOA/ACGME merger: Should not be any issue for this program. It was mentioned that they’d need two more months of peds (like most of the other AOA programs) and might need to reduce number of hospitals (apparently ACGME limits it to 5)

Interviews: Interview on Dec 3rd, which consisted of sitting in room with 5 or 6 attendings and a couple of residents. It was very laid back.
Pre-interview dinner was, frankly, AWESOME. They got us a luxury box at a Redwings game which had food and beer and was just an awesome time.

Pros: Busy program; lots of autonomy; great peds and great trauma/recon; damn good fellowship placement; Santucci and Lim really go out on a, dare I say it, limb for their residents; travel abroad as a senior; good mix of residents

Cons: Detroit; lots of traveling between hospitals; residents not totally cohesive (not through any fault of their own); would’ve liked to see residents get more time with Santucci; robotics not a strength (but getting stronger)

Contact: Christine Bassett. [email protected]

 

[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS


Program: Rowan SOM
Positions in 2015: 3 or 4

General: Newish program that covers multiple hospitals in southern NJ including: Kennedy Washington & Stratford, Our Lady of Lourdes, Vineland, and several others I cannot recall

Attendings: PD- Gordon Brown (MD Anderson trained). One very large group that covers all of south Jersey. Very busy group with diverse training

Residents: Residents not super cohesive since they cover a large number of hospitals; that being said, they do cover a hospital themselves during junior years so they’re pretty damn good right off the bat. I enjoyed my time with all of them

Didactics: Conference on Wednesday mornings. Not my favorite didactics: little attending turnout, residents didn’t seem too interested in being there, and the site is kind of out of the way.

They do JC during summer and fall at local restaurants

Research: I know a couple of residents had projects going on but it wasn’t stressed during my time there or during my interview

Operative experience: Mixed bag here. Great operative experience during junior years and they’re granted tons of autonomy. I thought some seniors were a tad behind their peers, especially in the robot, which is a shame because Dr. Brown brings in tons and tons of great oncologic cases.

Clinic experience: Not sure on this one

AOA/ACGME merger: They will definitely need more peds added to their experience, and probably more trauma as well. PD said he’s starting the process of being accredited now.

Interviews: Dec 17th. A room of PD, APD, a few residents, and another attending. No pre-interview dinner.

Pros: BUSY. BUSY; autonomy; great selection of cases; residents have placed into some fantastic fellowships

Cons: lots of driving; weak robotics despite good cases; q4 medicine call all intern year regardless of specialty at Rowan SOM

Contact: Don’t recall

 

[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS


Program: Metro Health-Wyoming (Grand Rapids)
Positions in 2015: 1

General: Small program located in Grand Rapids, MI. Base hospital is very new and very nice. Cover one or two other hospitals located in downtown GR. Robotics-heavy program.

Attendings: PD-Thomas Maatman, DO. I believe it is a private group of attendings with varied training.

Residents: The residents here were very nice during the interview, all seemed to be friends. From what I recall, they all score very well on their in-service exams. Did not rotate here so can’t say much else.

Didactics: Don’t recall

Research: Don’t recall

Operative experience: Robotics-heavy. PD times his residents while they operate and grades them when they operate so that they can improve upon their skills, which I thought was a nice touch. Don’t remember too much else.

Clinic experience: I think they spend some amount of time in clinic

AOA/ACGME merger: PD said he didn’t expect any problems

Interviews: Dec 11th. One on one interview with the PD. I was a little irked because I flew all the way to GR for the PD to essentially ask what my board scores were (he loves boards because they seem to indicate how you’ll perform on ISEs).

Good post-interview dinner at Asian restaurant across from hospital.


Pros: good robotics; smart residents

Cons: lower volume; didactics? Research?

Contact: Unsure

 

[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS


Program: Albert Einstein Medical Center (AEMC)
Positions in 2015: 3

General: Formerly known as “PCOM’s” program but has cut associations entirely. Hospitals covered include: AEMC, AEMC Elkins Park, AEMC Montgomery, Hanhemann University Hospital, Jeannes Hospital

Attendings: PD- Phil Ginsberg. Large private group lead by Drs. Ginsberg and Belkoff and includes Dr. Metro (reconstruction). Einstein recently opened the Urologic Institute of SEPA and hired some great staff including: Drs. Canter (uro-onc), Simhan (trauma/recon), Friedlander (stones), Sterious (general) and many of the Fox-Chase guys (Uzzo, Kutikov, Smaldone, etc)

Residents: Large program (formerly 4/year); residents are intelligent and really get along with each other

Didactics: Every Wednesday morning at AEMC which include, on a rotating basis: M&M, Grand Rounds, Campbell’s review, AUA updates. Great attending turnout during my month at AEMC.

Research: Most residents are very actively involved in research with many publications. I only expect it to get stronger with new association with FCCC

Operative experience: Very good volume, albeit a little light on robotics in my time there although word on the street is they’ve hired some new staff to help in that regard. Also, UI of SEPA was new when I was there and should be much, much busier.

Currently a tiered system (endoscopy for juniors; open/robotics for seniors) with seniors choosing which cases they come in on.

Attendings do a great job of granting autonomy to residents and frequently allow seniors to take juniors through more difficult cases themselves.

Clinic experience: Can’t recall the exact set-up, but residents on academic service (UI-SEPA) must spend time in clinic and board cases.

AOA/ACGME merger: Was stressed that they will have temporary status at earliest possible date; In my personal opinion, this program should have no trouble with merger

Interviews: Were held on Dec 6 and 10. Six rooms with two attendings in each, and one room with residents. No pre-interview dinner. Used to be a big round-table with everybody grilling you—so a decent departure from that.

Pros: Great attendings, many well-known in their fields; strong residents with good relationships; lots of OR autonomy; strong didactics; Philly (underrated city); strong fellowship placement

Cons: +/- robotics but likely will improve considerably; cover several hospitals

Contact: Sheila Wise-Weal. [email protected]; She’s an awesome program coordinator and was amazingly friendly.

 

[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS


Program: E. W. Sparrow/GMEI/MSU
Positions in 2015: 1

General: Great program located in East Lansing, MI just a few clicks from MSU’s campus. Robotics heavy. Covers Sparrow Hospital and McLaren Greater Lansing (MGL)

Attendings: PD- Donald Bartkowski. Two groups of faculty plus a single practitioner. Academic- includes Drs. Bartkowski (peds), Harding, Rizer, Davis. Private: Zuckerman, Yousef, Mashni, Johnson. Individual: Stockall. All of the services are very, very busy.

Residents: Great group of residents who were/are EXCELLENT surgeons. Definite Midwest feel (i.e. very friendly). Knowledgeable. Many are married and/or have children but frequently hang out with each other.

Didactics: Every Wednesday morning and I think every Friday morning (or something to that effect). Consists of M&M, AUA updates, etc etc. PD recognized he wanted this to improve so he used the hospitals affiliation with Mayo and created a video conferencing set-up to link into their tumor board. Definitely getting stronger here

Research: Wasn’t heavily emphasized while I was there; that being said, PD did emphasize that MSU’s VAST basic sciences were open to residents for bench research. Incoming chief told me in person he hopes to greatly improve residents involvement with research.

Operative experience: In my opinion, second-to-none in the AOA uro world. Cases everyday, tons and tons of robotics with teaching console. 4th years were getting solid console time, Chiefs doing skin-to-skin robots the whole year and develop into very strong robotic surgeons. Plenty of open cases as well

Clinic experience: Weekly time spent at academic or private clinic

AOA/ACGME merger: PD is really on top of his game and said he expects no problem with merger and hopes to have temporary status come earliest opportunity

Interviews: Held the first two Fridays in December. Dinner night before at pizza joint—it is very relaxed and was an enjoyable time

Pros: strong robotics and overall operative experience; knowledgeable and tight-knit residents; East Lansing was enjoyable for me; did I mention strong robotics? Sparrow is a gorgeous hospital with brand new OR suite

Cons: Perhaps lack fellowship trained faculty; only take one resident but could easily handle 2/year; not as much autonomy in some areas, but no program included more console time; didactics and research not quite there yet but are actively improving

Contact: Shannon Grochulski-Fries. [email protected]

 

[marke]

AOA/DO Urology 2015 match google doc -->


more detail to follow....

 

[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS

Program: Detroit Metro Consortium
Positions in 2015: 2

General: Good residency, their outgoing chief landed a spot at Cleveland Clinic for fellowship, so that’s cool. Work with lots of different attendings. They cover three hospitals total with two hospitals (Henry Ford Macomb and Mclaren Macomb) located close to each other with Botsford approximately 45 min away.

Attendings: PD: Dr. McIntosh DO; work with MIU and Comprehensive Urology (both large groups in the area); some fellowship trained in robotics and oncology, some are more eager to allow residents to do procedures / teach than others

Residents: One of the cooler groups of residents I worked with. They are very family-like, looking out for each other. Call is split evenly among all levels.

Didactics: Wed mornings with the DMC and St. John programs and Thurs mornings with St. John program. Resident led, some lectures given by attendings. Students are expected to give 5-10 min lecture. Usually rushed at the end.

Research: Not highly emphasized.

Operative Experience: Each hospital is covered by one resident with the fourth years floating to hospitals with more cases / need help. Chief has freedom to pick cases – usually performed all the robot cases and the more interesting onc cases. Was told at interview that they always have more than enough cases to go around and sometimes cases go uncovered due to volume.

Clinic Experience: Just started a resident clinic run by fourth years. Cases from here are boarded under those residents who see the patient.

AOA/ACGME merger: Doesn’t seem like it will be a problem from what I was told.

Interview: Dec 13th; Interview was four rooms ~15 minutes each with 1-2 attendings and 1-2 residents. Questions were usual residency interview questions. Laid back.

Pros: Lots of autonomy. Busy. Residents are smart/chill.

Cons: Driving between hospitals. Little emphasis on research. Difficulty with covering multitude of attendings.

Contact: Diana CobbsEmail: [email protected]

 

[TallScrubs]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS

Program: St. John
Positions in 2015: 2



General: New program, just graduated first set of seniors. Nice group of residents, get along well. Very low case volume and allowed far too many students on service to audition at the same time. At times there were 5-6 students in on a routine cysto/stent…yeah. They have some residents/attendings that really seem to care about the program and the direction it’s heading, so very resident driven.

They cover St. John Oakland and Macomb, Providence (students are hit or miss to rotate here) and Creighton in Rochester Hills, additionally they operate at Grosse Pointe, but do not cover patients (I believe, but double check on this) 



Attendings: PD: Dr. DePolo DO; multitude of others through Michigan Institute of Urology, just started having interns work in clinic with some of the attendings, good amount of office procedures, better than before from what I was told.



Residents: Down to earth, take two residents a year, diverse but seem to get along well. Some seniors were better than others, saw a few cases get poached from juniors mid operation, but only from a select few

Didactics: Shared with DMC and the Detroit Consortium on Wed mornings, and Thursday mornings at St. John with the Detroit Metro Consortium, students should expect to be questioned, so make sure you read on the topic the night before or look silly in front of everyone

Research: Self-directed, lots of attendings / patient records if motivated enough to create own research, no emphasis



Operative Experience: Very little when I was there. Not sure if it was a fluke because all the attendings were on vacation or at conference. 



Clinic Experience: Unsure

Interview: Round table with 6-8 attendings and all the residents with you sitting in the middle, approximately 15 minutes, typical questions, nothing to worry about.

AOA/ACGME merger: Not sure, don't think it will be a problem but I dunno



Pros: St. John system is nice, residents are good group, improving



Cons: New program with growing pains

Contact: Lauren Nash; Email: [email protected]

 

[srp23]

Einstein: likely the best AOA program, however this program will likely become MD only as of next year and will likely never take another DO again. Also, they will most likely lose Hahnemann as a site now that a new AOA program has opened up there. They stand to lose significant amount of case volume and some DO attendings will most likely jump ship and come to the Hahnemann program. I'm sure the new group there will find a way to make up the case volume and will likely reduce the program size to 2/year as an AUA program.

 

[TallScrubs]

I will refute the post above re: Einstein. There is no current indication whatsoever that they will become MD only as of next year. I expect them to take MDs earlier than other programs, but certainly not this year. To future applicants: continue to apply and rotate there until something definitive comes out.

Also re: Einstein. Yes, they will likely lose HUH in the next several years but will probably not be missed as a site in the long term. Also, picking up extra months at CHOP to meet ACGME requirements

 

[clinke]

What's up with these ridiculously high COMLEX scores? It seems like there is a 75 point increase this year on the average.

 

[srp23]

What's up with these ridiculously high COMLEX scores? It seems like there is a 75 point increase this year on the average.

Well keep in mind that the list doesn't have stats for everyone who matched and most likely people with higher stats are more likely to share their scores than others.

Urology is getting competitive man, especially with more and more DO schools opening and the risk of losing programs to 100% AUA. Despite what the actual numbers are I think anyone who applies/matched urology would tell you to definitely aim for 600+ on your steps, if not higher. As you can see there are exceptions to that, but they are hardly the standard of the norm.

 

[clinke]

Anyone know the contact information for the PCOM - Hanhemann program? The one of the AOA website does not seem to be working.
Thanks

 

[TallScrubs]

Anyone know the contact information for the PCOM - Hanhemann program? The one of the AOA website does not seem to be working.
Thanks

(610) 667-3020. That is the number to his (Belkoff's) office. Tell them you're a visiting student who would like to rotate with him for a month at HUH.

 

[clinke]

(610) 667-3020. That is the number to his (Belkoff's) office. Tell them you're a visiting student who would like to rotate with him for a month at HUH.

That would truly clutch and I thank you.

Anyone else have any reviews to offer of these programs?

 

[Cincinnatus19]

Just out of curiosity, there were no listed DO's on the 2016 google match doc, were there any DO's who matched AUA? Also it would be of great assistance to have the old excel doc higher up on the page filled out with 2016 when the AOA match happens. Any updates would be great as well. Thanks, and Good Luck!

 

[Docinabox10]

No DO's matched AUA this year. I presume once match results come out in Feb. this thread will pick up a little more steam. These reviews will be updated, etc.

 

[marke]

Congratulations to everyone who matched this year!

2016 DO Urology Match google doc -->

 

[Docinabox10]

Congrats to everyone that matched yesterday you all rock! There were a lot of people on this thread that gave me some great advice over the last year tallscrubs, powersr, iowafarmstud, marke, you guys were awesome. Since I matched yesterday I'd be happy to answer questions if you PM.

In general just a few pieces of advice:
The best program is the one that you get into. Everyone has their own reasons for different rank lists and the DO Urology residencies are definitely just as good as any MD place.
Everyone says you need to rotate to get interviews. This is simply false.
I know many people with great board scores or those that did 6+ rotations who only got a few interviews. If you don't go to CCOM you can't get an interview or rotate at Olympia fields.

Places that will interview without a rotation.
1) St. Johns 2) Einstein 3) DMC 4) Cook County 5) Detroit Metro Consortium 6) Rowan 7) Grand Rapids 8) Hahnemann.
I interviewed at most of these without rotating there or had close friends who received interviews that did not rotate there.

Places that you must interview at to Rotate: 1) Charleston Area Medical Center (CAMC/WVU)

Something very important for those going forward. Because of this ACGME merger:
As of 2 weeks ago, 3 programs: DMC, Cook, and Lansing have already received ACGME initial accreditation (NOT PRE-ACCREDITATION). Which means that for the class of 2017 they will have the ability to take MD students and participate in the NRMP match.

Basically every other program has pre-accreditation and the next Urology review committee is in April. I expect more to receive initial ACGME accreditation at this time.

I definitely expect some of the osteopathic urology programs to interview and probably take some MD students going forward.

Because of the aforementioned statement it is vital that you take USMLE. Most program directors asked us to send our scores in this year as a supplement. I think taking comlex only would be risky at this point. Research is becoming super important.

 

[Docinabox10]

I've had quite a few people sending me messages asking questions so I figured I'd post this.
There were 11 AOA approved Urology Programs.

Information for all specialties (not just urology) showing their program status is found on:
https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

6 have been granted ACGME Initial accreditation.
Albert Einstein Medical Center Philadelphia, PA
Charleston Area Medical Center Charleston, WV
Detroit Medical Center Corporation Program Detroit, MI
Drexel University School of Medicine / Hahnemann University Philadelphia, PA
John H. Stroger Hospital of Cook County Program Chicago, IL
Sparrow Hospital Program East Lansing, MI


4 are Continued-Preaccred status
McLaren-Oakland Mt. Clemens, MI
Metro Health Program Wyoming, MI
St. John Macomb-Oakland Hospital Program Madison Heights, MI
Olympia Fields / St. Francis IL

1 Has not yet applied
Rowan University School of Medicine

No clue if the ACGME inital programs will take MD students but they have the ability to I guess. Just keep rotating through all of them and work your tails off.

 

[UroHopeFul]

REVIEW BY ANONYMOUS


Program: Metro Health-Wyoming (Grand Rapids)
Positions in 2015: 1

General: Small program located in Grand Rapids, MI. Base hospital is very new and very nice. Cover one or two other hospitals located in downtown GR. Robotics-heavy program.

Attendings: PD-Thomas Maatman, DO. I believe it is a private group of attendings with varied training.

Residents: The residents here were very nice during the interview, all seemed to be friends. From what I recall, they all score very well on their in-service exams. Did not rotate here so can’t say much else.

Didactics: Don’t recall
.
Research.: Don’t recall
.
Operative experience.: Robotics-heavy. PD times his residents while they operate and grades them when they operate so that they can improve upon their skills, which I thought was a nice touch. Don’t remember too much else.
.
Clinic experience.: I think they spend some amount of time in clinic
.
AOA/ACGME merger:. PD said he didn’t expect any problems
.
Interviews.: Dec 11th. One on one interview with the PD. I was a little irked because I flew all the way to GR for the PD to essentially ask what my board scores were (he loves boards because they seem to indicate how you’ll perform on ISEs).

Good post-interview dinner at Asian restaurant across from hospital.


Pros: good robotics; smart residents

Cons: lower volume; didactics? Research?
.
Contact.: Unsure
.

Had a great experience in GR. A hidden gem as there is not much about them online. Very heavy robotics but also do tons of other procedures: female urology, oncology, stones, general, and go to CHOP for peds (best uro-peds). They have a peds uro program in town if any resident wants to get more peds experience, too. They do at least 1 original research project per year (intern year you can do case study). Didactic schedule is pretty strong compared to all the other ones i've seen but mostly self driven by residents. They have a chief-intern clinic that is very autonomous and chief does almost 100% of cases that come out of there including robots. PD is one of the top 3 highest volume robotic surgeons in the state - even compared to UofM. Dedicated fellowship trained female urologists with heavy volume. They cover Metro Hospital mainly which is 200+ bed but can go to downtown hospital anytime as seniors to cover any case they want (1000+bed). Metro is fairly new and have some brand new additions...nice looking hospital compared to those in philly or chicago for sure. They seem to have the best call schedule of any program I've researched. They are in final stage of ACGME and are pre-accredited but will go through AOA match this year. PD does like high board scores but has taken relatively lower scores with strong CV. GR seems like a nice place to live too but haven't research housing there yet.

 

[pd1112]

Can anyone shed any light on the ACGME-accredited programs' status this year for the match? When going through the program selection process on ERAS, several of the newly-accredited programs (Cook County, Sparrow, etc) are listed among all of the traditional MD residencies, however it appears at least on the surface that these programs will only be considering DO applicants. For example, when clicking the link for the Cook County program website, the description on CC's website says that applicants must be graduates of an AOA-accredited osteopathic medical school. In contrast, DMC's program website specifically states its positions are open to qualified allopathic and osteopathic applicants. I was previously under the impression from previous posts that these programs "could" take allopathic applicants, but it was unknown whether they would. Anyone have any insight?