AOA vs. Honors in Medicine

[rd31]

For top medicine programs, which do you think a program director from top programs would give more consideration (all other credentials equal): an AOA student without honors in medicine, or a student who honored medicine but did not achieve AOA?

(and what I really want to know: could AOA ever make up for a lack of honors in medicine at a program like UCSF?)

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[gutonc]

For top medicine programs, which do you think a program director from top programs would give more consideration (all other credentials equal): an AOA student without honors in medicine, or a student who honored medicine but did not achieve AOA?

(and what I really want to know: could AOA ever make up for a lack of honors in medicine at a program like UCSF?)

The short answer to your question is "no".

But here's a longer answer:

I had a PhD, was AOA, crap school, Step 1 was pretty good for the year I took it (but the median rose by almost 15 points by the time I applied so was straight up mediocre by the time I applied), got HP in IM clerkship and SubI.

Got interviews at: MGH, Cornell, UW (both of them), WashU, UChicago, UCLA, blah, blah, blah
Didn't get interviews at: Stanford, UCSF, BWH, Duke, Northwestern, NYU (whatever), Columbia.

So, if you rock a 260 and honor your SubI (and are from a good school and have research or something else amazing on your CV) then you stand a chance. Otherwise...meh.

But here's the good news.
1. You will (probably) not be a shi**y doctor if you do your residency somewhere other than UCSF. If you do turn out to be a shi**y doctor, it will have little or nothing to do with your residency program.
2. You also (probably) get a fellowship somewhere good, even if you don't do your residency at UCSF. If you don't score a good fellowship, again...that's on you, not your residency.
3. With the exception of the NYC programs, essentially every other IM program in the country has a better COL and QOL than UCSF.
4. Your grandma hasn't heard of UCSF and will constantly ask you why you didn't go to a real program like Stanford.

 

[DermViser]

The short answer to your question is "no".

But here's a longer answer:

I had a PhD, was AOA, crap school, Step 1 was pretty good for the year I took it (but the median rose by almost 15 points by the time I applied so was straight up mediocre by the time I applied), got HP in IM clerkship and SubI.

Got interviews at: MGH, Cornell, UW (both of them), WashU, UChicago, UCLA, blah, blah, blah
Didn't get interviews at: Stanford, UCSF, BWH, Duke, Northwestern, NYU (whatever), Columbia.

So, if you rock a 260 and honor your SubI (and are from a good school and have research or something else amazing on your CV) then you stand a chance. Otherwise...meh.

But here's the good news.
1. You will (probably) not be a shi**y doctor if you do your residency somewhere other than UCSF. If you do turn out to be a shi**y doctor, it will have little or nothing to do with your residency program.
2. You also (probably) get a fellowship somewhere good, even if you don't do your residency at UCSF. If you don't score a good fellowship, again...that's on you, not your residency.
3. With the exception of the NYC programs, essentially every other IM program in the country has a better COL and QOL than UCSF.
4. Your grandma hasn't heard of UCSF and will constantly ask you why you didn't go to a real program like Stanford.

Why is UCSF's IM program so exalted? Do residents just have less scutwork or something? Or is the environment just very positive and homely?

 

[ABatOutofHeck]

Why is UCSF's IM program so exalted? Do residents just have less scutwork or something? Or is the environment just very positive and homely?

I only know about UCSF (and other programs) from interviewing there, but I liked it because it had the academic heft of the Harvard and Hopkins programs without the self satisfied and snobby attitude. Plus, it's in San Francisco!

 

[P Diddy]

Why is UCSF's IM program so exalted? Do residents just have less scutwork or something? Or is the environment just very positive and homely?

Quite the opposite. UCSF is known for its rigorous training and is definitely not a handholding program (Stanford).

p diddy

 

[obiwan]

For top medicine programs, which do you think a program director from top programs would give more consideration (all other credentials equal): an AOA student without honors in medicine, or a student who honored medicine but did not achieve AOA?

(and what I really want to know: could AOA ever make up for a lack of honors in medicine at a program like UCSF?)

I think having a medicine honors carries a little bit more weight than AOA. Granted, places like MGH and Northwestern rejected me for interviews and had both the medicine honors and AOA.

 

[Elixir6]

Is it possible to get AOA without an honors in medicine?

Edit: I see gutonc got that. But I assume that's unusual.

 

[gutonc]

Is it possible to get AOA without an honors in medicine?

Edit: I see gutonc got that. But I assume that's unusual.

AOA is typically more political than being a strictly merit based system. So I anticipate it being quite common.

 

[NaOut]

For top medicine programs, which do you think a program director from top programs would give more consideration (all other credentials equal): an AOA student without honors in medicine, or a student who honored medicine but did not achieve AOA?

(and what I really want to know: could AOA ever make up for a lack of honors in medicine at a program like UCSF?)

Based on my isolated experience this interview season it seems Honors>AOA for medicine, with everything else being equal.

 

[DermViser]

AOA is typically more political than being a strictly merit based system. So I anticipate it being quite common.

Isn't AOA mainly predicated on number of Honors grades in preclinicals and clerkships? (Unless you were referring to political with respect to getting Honors in clerkships and not merit based).

 

[Raryn]

Isn't AOA mainly predicated on number of Honors grades in preclinicals and clerkships? (Unless you were referring to political with respect to getting Honors in clerkships and not merit based).

Varies. The only constant is that you have to be in the top quarter of your class to be eligible. The school can pick up to 16% of the whole class from within that top 25% using whatever standards they want. Some do it by grades. Many do it by extracurriculars. Some require you to submit an application with a personal statement and such. Some even do it by vote among classmates. My school did a combination of all four of those, with the results of everything being sent to some committee somewhere and the committee picking who got to be AOA.

I doubt I even came close to getting it, but I got some pretty decent interviews and like where I ended up, so meh.

 

[throw away]

Is it possible to get AOA without an honors in medicine?

Depends on the school. My school bases AOA almost entirely on politics. Very few AOA students in my class (far less than half) were cum laude. It was laughable.

On the other hand, this can certainly backfire. A couple of our AOAs did not even match, which looks terrible for the school.

As for answering the question at hand: I did not have AOA but got into my first choice program, which was quite a good program. No one commented on my lack of AOA during interviews but they did take big note of my "pass" on family medicine. Therefore I'm guessing that clinical grades are a bigger factor than AOA.

 

[DermViser]

Depends on the school. My school bases AOA almost entirely on politics. Very few AOA students in my class (far less than half) were cum laude. It was laughable.

On the other hand, this can certainly backfire. A couple of our AOAs did not even match, which looks terrible for the school.

As for answering the question at hand: I did not have AOA but got into my first choice program, which was quite a good program. No one commented on my lack of AOA during interviews but they did take big note of my "pass" on family medicine. Therefore I'm guessing that clinical grades are a bigger factor than AOA.

Wow! Not even cum laude graduates being AOA? What a joke. Usually AOA implies good clinical grades.

 

[visari]

I think in the near future this AOA business is going to change. either schools will be given a hard set of criteria on who is eligible for AOA or it will gradually loose its value when applying for residency/fellowship. in schools where AOA is granted bases on classmates voting, it's only a measure of popularity! this's insane! you can be popular among your classmates and still be an average or below-average student.

 

[OCallag]

Criteria for AOA membership at my med school required a lot of 1) research and 2) schmoozing. So, it differs among schools.

 

[gutonc]

I think in the near future this AOA business is going to change. either schools will be given a hard set of criteria on who is eligible for AOA or it will gradually loose its value when applying for residency/fellowship. in schools where AOA is granted bases on classmates voting, it's only a measure of popularity! this's insane! you can be popular among your classmates and still be an average or below-average student.

Did you not pay attention to anything in this thread?

AOA requires that, at a bare minimum, you be in the top quarter of your class. Everything else is up to the individual chapter. So there are hard criteria...and some soft ones too. Welcome to the real world where you'll be judged not only on your accomplishments, but whether or not people like you. Get used to it...and appreciate learning it at such an early, and irrelevant juncture in your life.

And if you don't think AOA status hasn't already lost it's value among anyone other than M4s, you need to step away from the meth because it's screwing you up something fierce.