Appeal Letter for Dismissal in 4th year

[hallowmann]

The failures aren't relevant though. they are looking at being dismissed for conduct, not academic, issues. Ending someone's career for calling other sites and leaving a rotation early is a draconian punishment. Even that guy at Case screwed up more times than this before being dismissed.

Any promotion and graduation committee takes into account the whole case, meaning both academic and professional matters. OP has been called in front of them before for failing boards. OP being called in front of them again for a professionalism issue does not mean they will ignore past issues just because they are under the realm of academic. As I alluded to, they could have even had him fail the rotation (which would be justified) and dismiss him from a both academic and/or professional standpoint. They have grounds for both.

Also, you're implying that all he did was call other rotation sites. He called other rotation sites in an attempt to circumvent his own clinical education office's decision. That is a big deal, and may demonstrate a lack of respect for authority. Those sites even felt it necessary to contact his school and inform them of his action. He did not discuss the issue with ClinEd, he did not ask them if it would be alright for him to contact the other sites to see if they had a spot, he just took it upon himself, thinking he could find away to get around their decision without involving them.

These really aren't minor issues. Doing a single one would be cause for action in a job or residency. I personally hope these actions were done out of naivety, in which case I hope his Dean is merciful, but it should be understood that these are not benign actions.

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[22031 Alum]

The failures aren't relevant though. they are looking at being dismissed for conduct, not academic, issues. Ending someone's career for calling other sites and leaving a rotation early is a draconian punishment. Even that guy at Case messed up more times than this (and more seriously) before being dismissed.

Your first mistake is thinking academic issues are completely segregated from professionalism/disciplinary issues. They are not and never will be in your career. Any time you are being scrutinized for one area, deficiencies in the other area will be brought up.

I don't think that dismissal for leaving early is draconian if someone is already on probation. Is being put on probation for calling other sites draconian? Yes, it seems extreme to me. So extreme that it makes me seriously doubt that phone calls are all that happened. I'd bet good money that something closer to what I described above actually happened. But we will never know with only one side of the story.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

Do not hire an attorney.

Hiring an attorney is often constructive when the normal functional structure of the relationships is naturally equal and adversarial: you injure someone and they have medical bills and the two of you can't agree on amounts for whatever reason.

It is almost always destructive when the nature of the relationship is functionally hierarchical and collaborative, as in the case of a student-administrator: hiring an attorney in these types of situations makes people feel defensive, afraid, interpersonally sleighted, and as though you are not acknowledging social hierarchies.

Nobody survives these types of complaints internally in employment, few attorneys will take them on contingency, and fewer juries are sympathetic towards these types of claims. You're a student where there are far fewer protections than in employment.

Retaining an attorney to manage a situation like this when your legal case is a strong is a mixed bag. Hiring an attorney when you don't have a case will only anger them further. From what's in the thread, I seriously doubt you have any kind of legal case.

Apologize, admit mistakes, beg opportunity to repeat.

 

[costales]

Any promotion and graduation committee takes into account the whole case, meaning both academic and professional matters. OP has been called in front of them before for failing boards. OP being called in front of them again for a professionalism issue does not mean they will ignore past issues just because they are under the realm of academic. As I alluded to, they could have even had him fail the rotation (which would be justified) and dismiss him from a both academic and/or professional standpoint. They have grounds for both.

And courts have allowed med schools to commingle the two domains. In the latest case (Amir Al-Dabagh), the federal appeals court was explicit: "... lack-of-professionalism finding amounts to an academic judgment to which courts owe considerable deference... Whether we take our cue from Case Western's curriculum, the student handbook contract between the student and university, the Supreme Court, the Ohio cases, our own cases, or cases from other circuits, the conclusion is the same: The Committee's professionalism determination is an academic judgment. That conclusion all but resolves this case." (BTW The decision cited a 1978 Supreme Court ruling which upheld the dismissal of a med student over complaints that her coat and fingernails weren't clean and she couldn't get along with people on rotations.)

 

[Danglebells]

Yes, he left early twice without asking permission/telling anyone.

Either way, 99.9% of the time with these threads there are key elements omitted in the OP that gradually come to light as the thread progresses another page or two. Sit back, relax, and wait for the big reveal.

If i remembee right, OP has failed step 1 twice, and failed step 2 once. I imagine there are many many other failures tucked in

 

[beachbum353353]

...

 

[Mjolner]

If i remembee right, OP has failed step 1 twice, and failed step 2 once. I imagine there are many many other failures tucked in

Yep

 

[Goro]

You have to look at these as a collective pattern of behavior, not individual actions, as my learned colleague Alum has mentioned above.

The OP is not merely NOT learning from mistakes, but continuing to make more of them.

The failures aren't relevant though. they are looking at being dismissed for conduct, not academic, issues. Ending someone's career for calling other sites and leaving a rotation early is a draconian punishment. Even that guy at Case messed up more times than this (and more seriously) before being dismissed.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

If i remembee right, OP has failed step 1 twice, and failed step 2 once. I imagine there are many many other failures tucked in

Three COMLEX failures was an auto-dismissal at my school unless you could prove majorly extenuating circumstances. OP probably was skating on thinner ice than he thought.

 

[Mad Jack]

The failures aren't relevant though. they are looking at being dismissed for conduct, not academic, issues. Ending someone's career for calling other sites and leaving a rotation early is a draconian punishment. Even that guy at Case messed up more times than this (and more seriously) before being dismissed.

That's generally not how it works. Failing the Level 1 twice puts a person at great risk of specialty board failure. Calling rotation sites despite the wishes of the school makes them look bad, like they can't even keep their students in line. Finally, leaving without notice could be anywhere from an actionable offense to a legal issue once a person is a licensed physician, depending on the circumstances. This all amounts to an individual that, from an administrative perspective, is at a high risk of tarnishing the future reputation of the school at whatever program they match at, be it by conduct or by board failure. This student could cause difficulties for future graduates via that reputational damage, hence the action taken being administratively justified (if not, perhaps, morally so).

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

A truly disheartening post to watch unfold as the portentous nail in the coffin is hammered. Really reminds me of Aziz Ansari when he was fired as a resident at sacred heart in Scrubs for being incorrigable and constantly distracted.

 

[deleted480308]

Sorry OP, this looks rough. Academic problems coupled with professionalism issues can sink you. Most schools can work with you on one or the other for a bit but both over a period of time ends it

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

^there are way too many people with Ron Swanson avatars. Jesus

 

[235009]

^there are way too many people with Ron Swanson avatars. Jesus

Quite sure there are at most 3

....also Ron Swanson is awesome

....also my Ron Swanson avatar is the most awesome

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

All three points are debatable, sir.

Quite sure there are at most 3

....also Ron Swanson is awesome

....also my Ron Swanson avatar is the most awesome

 

[deleted480308]

^there are way too many people with Ron Swanson avatars. Jesus

I'm actually ron swanson

 

[ortnakas]

Sorry OP, this looks rough. Academic problems coupled with professionalism issues can sink you. Most schools can work with you on one or the other for a bit but both over a period of time ends it

Agreed. At my school they tend to work with you if you've got an academic issue or a professionalism one, but one of each (or more than one of either) could start to be a problem.

All three points are debatable, sir.

Ron Swanson's awesomeness is not up for debate.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

That's generally not how it works. Failing the Level 1 twice puts a person at great risk of specialty board failure. Calling rotation sites despite the wishes of the school makes them look bad, like they can't even keep their students in line. Finally, leaving without notice could be anywhere from an actionable offense to a legal issue once a person is a licensed physician, depending on the circumstances. This all amounts to an individual that, from an administrative perspective, is at a high risk of tarnishing the future reputation of the school at whatever program they match at, be it by conduct or by board failure. This student could cause difficulties for future graduates via that reputational damage, hence the action taken being administratively justified (if not, perhaps, morally so).

I agree with all this except the bit about calling rotation sites. Obviously I donno what happened with the OP, but my school was notorious for cracking down hard on people doing things they (innocently) didn't know they shouldn't have been doing after the fact. I easily could have seen OP's school not telling him he couldn't call other sites, him doing so and thinking it was something innocent, and then the school bringing the hurt when they found out.

That said, OP apparently failed level 1 twice. So I bet the *real* reason he was on probation was for a double level 1 fail (apparently with a 2 CK fail as well).

 

[Mad Jack]

I agree with all this except the bit about calling rotation sites. Obviously I donno what happened with the OP, but my school was notorious for cracking down hard on people doing things they (innocently) didn't know they shouldn't have been doing after the fact. I easily could have seen OP's school not telling him he couldn't call other sites, him doing so and thinking it was something innocent, and then the school bringing the hurt when they found out.

That said, OP apparently failed level 1 twice. So I bet the *real* reason he was on probation was for a double level 1 fail (apparently with a 2 CK fail as well).

OP was very likely prohibited from selecting rotation sites based upon their probation from failing the COMLEX twice, etc. Usually such probationary terms are pretty clearly spelled out, and going outside of them is not only a mistake, but outright in defiance of probationary status. That's a big deal.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

OP was very likely prohibited from selecting rotation sites based upon their probation from failing the COMLEX twice, etc. Usually such probationary terms are pretty clearly spelled out, and going outside of them is not only a mistake, but outright in defiance of probationary status. That's a big deal.

Whatever. The point is that he was probably on probation for the COMLEX fails and not for some 'affront to authority'.

 

[Mad Jack]

Whatever. The point is that he was probably on probation for the COMLEX fails and not for some 'affront to authority'.

This was strike four is the point. I can see why this happened. Sucks that it did, but I understand it.

 

[FutureDO2016]

.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'm really sorry things ended up this way for you. I don't remember the details of your story, but getting to 4th year and having this slap on the face is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

 

[feeling-dizzy]

I am so sorry to hear your story. It is so terrible it happens to you. I probably won't waste money for the lawyer because the school is smart enough to produce "enough paper-trail" to win if go to court. There is very very small chance if you can ever be a doctor again; but I will try to apply to new DO school (even LUCOM) to see if they give you another shot. I would not apply to Caribean or Europe since there is no guarantee you will get a residency in U.S. to pay your student loan. I would open to apply to Phd program since you have such a solid science base; it is such a waste if you cannot use those knowledge again. Nurse or PA come to mind too. Again, so sorry to hear.

 

[Danglebells]

You aren't going to be a doctor.
I know it isn't easy to hear, but its the only honest thing I can say.

You will not be reinstated, you will not be able to transfer, no school in the US will accept you, and if you try to "start over" in the carib, you still have multiple board failures and a dismissal on your record.

 

[IslandStyle808]

You can try applying for podiatry and see if the schools are willing to count your courses, thus not having to repeat another four years of school. This is probably the most cost effective option. This will also mean retaking the MCAT.

All physician options are closed to you at this point, don't even think about the caribbean. I'm sorry to hear about your situation and hope you are able to bounce back from this.

 

[user3]

@FutureDO2016 just curious, but had you passed both comlex 2 CE and PE?

 

[NontradICUdoc]

the only person that I am aware of that successfully re-applied after a dismissal is BONESDO. Look up his thread, but I must warn you that this is the very much exception to the rule. Unfortunately, I think you have to look to other options and put into plan your plan B, C, or D. You have a college degree, find a career that you can do with it and try other things.

 

[IslandStyle808]

the only person that I am aware of that successfully re-applied after a dismissal is BONESDO. Look up his thread, but I must warn you that this is the very much exception to the rule. Unfortunately, I think you have to look to other options and put into plan your plan B, C, or D. You have a college degree, find a career that you can do with it and try other things.

This would not work for FutureDO2016. SDN makes it seem like all dismissals are in the same category. BonesDO was dismissed due to one failure of an anatomy exam, which is insane. In the case of Future DO2016, he has had multiple board failures and has shown unprofessional behavior (by the school's definition). This is a different category all together. His chances or reentering a US medial school are far far lower in comparison.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You can try applying for podiatry and see if the schools are willing to count your courses, thus not having to repeat another four years of school. This is probably the most cost effective option. This will also mean retaking the MCAT.

All physician options are closed to you at this point, don't even think about the caribbean. I'm sorry to hear about your situation and hope you are able to bounce back from this.

This is probably the smartest one to go for. I agree with others that say that DO doors are likely closed and caribbean would be a terrible investment. Getting into PA school would probably be harder than DPM.

 

[SLC]

The doctor goal is over FutureDO2016. It sucks that the cards fell that way, but it's over.

Time to start looking into alternate career paths.

 

[Danglebells]

This is probably the smartest one to go for. I agree with others that say that DO doors are likely closed and caribbean would be a terrible investment. Getting into PA school would probably be harder than DPM.

Agree. PA-Cs and PA schools absolutely loathe the idea that they could be backups for people who couldn't make/withstand the medical school route.

I think podiatry schools probably have the same thought process though. Accepting a someone who didnt finish MD/DO school is also accepting that podiatry a backup option for people who really wanted to be physicians.

OP, I really feel for you. We are really not that different and it sucks beyond words what happened to you. In all honesty, I think that at least 95% of medical students have done *something* that could warrant serious administrative action. Think about all the people who have skipped days of rotations when they are "sick" or "have interviews". Think of all the people who explicitly talk about the questions they had on board exams.

You need to understand though, that although it seems mean, the absolute meanest thing someone could tell you is that you have any chance of practicing medicine in the US.

 

[costales]

OP: Very sorry to hear - considering what you put in, regardless of what happened. Easier said than done - and no one would want to be in your situation - but you really should cut your losses and move on to other options. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm very sorry to hear this. The only way I could see you finishing would be to do something, anything to get your own school to take you back even if it means repeating a year or 2.

Beyond that Carib would be a very risky option, and without Step 1, you'd likely have to start from at least 2nd year.

I think the others on this thread are spot on suggesting to move on to plan B. Podiatry might be an option you should look into. Nursing honestly isn't a bad option. There are 1 yr accelerated programs, then afterwards you can work and get your RN then DNP. I doubt PA school is really an option at this point.

 

[thepoopologist]

Update:

I got dismissed from a DO school last week.

What are my options now?

1. Get a lawyer and try and get reinstated by the school?
2. Transfer to another DO school after explaining the whole situation though I would not have a letter of good standing due to being dismissed (I don't mind redoing 3rd and 4th year)
3. Would I be able to transfer to a Caribbean school and just restart 3rd and 4th year rotations and take USMLE Step I, II, and CS?
4. Would a PA or any other professional school take me now since don't the applications ask if you were enrolled in a previous graduate program?

Get your financial situation straightened out, i.e. loans on IBR, etc.

Go talk to a lawyer. Save your interview invite emails for residency. Approach it from the angle of trying to get reinstated, but if not, see if you can sue for lost income. As long as the lawyer is game (and reputable), and you're game, you're in business.

Also, don't forget to move on with your life

 

[thepoopologist]

I would be so pissed if I was in your situation, I think I'd do anything to place pressure on the school. I find it hilarious that an osteopathic school can charge that much in tuition and then decide to dismiss you 6 months from graduation because they've suddenly decided that you wouldn't be a good doc. Let the courts (realistically, the lawyer you consult) decide whether you would or wouldn't, and whether 30 years of income isn't due your way

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district-court-of-appeal/1192715.html

http://www.stetson.edu/law/academic...n_be_Learned_from_Sharick_v._Southeastern.pdf

 

[235009]

I'm very sorry to hear this. The only way I could see you finishing would be to do something, anything to get your own school to take you back even if it means repeating a year or 2.

I would guess that part of the reason he was dismissed was because they knew they had to report the unprofessional behavior to the places he interviewed at and he would subsequently not much which would be a strike against them. I don't see them taking back a huge liability that at this point is all but certain not to match.

Go talk to a lawyer. Save your interview invite emails for residency. Approach it from the angle of trying to get reinstated, but if not, see if you can sue for lost income. As long as the lawyer is game (and reputable), and you're game, you're in business.

This case would be dead in the water. They had plenty of reason for termination. This doesn't qualify as wrongful termination, discrimination or any other illegal thing. All you'll do is waste money and burn bridges by consulting a lawyer.

 

[Mjolner]

I would be so pissed if I was in your situation, I think I'd do anything to place pressure on the school. I find it hilarious that an osteopathic school can charge that much in tuition and then decide to dismiss you 6 months from graduation because they've suddenly decided that you wouldn't be a good doc. Let the courts (realistically, the lawyer you consult) decide whether you would or wouldn't, and whether 30 years of income isn't due your way

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district-court-of-appeal/1192715.html

http://www.stetson.edu/law/academic...n_be_Learned_from_Sharick_v._Southeastern.pdf

Isn't this the guy who forged letters from EM rotations? Or do I got it mixed up with someone else?

 

[user3]

I would be so pissed if I was in your situation, I think I'd do anything to place pressure on the school. I find it hilarious that an osteopathic school can charge that much in tuition and then decide to dismiss you 6 months from graduation because they've suddenly decided that you wouldn't be a good doc. Let the courts (realistically, the lawyer you consult) decide whether you would or wouldn't, and whether 30 years of income isn't due your way

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district-court-of-appeal/1192715.html

http://www.stetson.edu/law/academic...n_be_Learned_from_Sharick_v._Southeastern.pdf

will he/she be able to find evidence they were treated disparately from other students? If other students left rotations early, contacted other sites unauthorized, or engaged in other questionable conduct while on probation and the school knowingly did not discipline them in any way (or as harshly), I hope they would have a case.

 

[hallowmann]

I would guess that part of the reason he was dismissed was because they knew they had to report the unprofessional behavior to the places he interviewed at and he would subsequently not much which would be a strike against them. I don't see them taking back a huge liability that at this point is all but certain not to match...

That may be true, but if there were any way for him to become a doc, that would be the only way for it to happen. It's absolutely a longshot though.

 

[Goro]

As I have pointed out multiple times, no medical school has ever been successfully sued if their actions were found to be NOT arbitrary or capricious.

I will point out again that given how hard medical schools try to keep students in, for the OP to be dismissed implies a lot of bad stuff has happened. Think this:

will he/she be able to find evidence they were treated disparately from other students? If other students left rotations early, contacted other sites unauthorized, or engaged in other questionable conduct while on probation and the school knowingly did not discipline them in any way (or as harshly), I hope they would have a case.

 

[user3]

As I have pointed out multiple times, no medical school has ever been successfully sued if their actions were found to be NOT arbitrary or capricious.

I will point out again that given how hard medical schools try to keep students in, for the OP to be dismissed implies a lot of bad stuff has happened. Think this:

futureDO2016 just doesn't seem like that type to me, although I could be wrong...

 

[ortnakas]

futureDO2016 just doesn't seem like that type to me, although I could be wrong...

It doesn't have to have been something dramatically terrible, but little problems add up as far as the Promotion & Graduation Committee (or whatever they're called at OP's school) is concerned.

I'm sure OP's a good person, but he or she has both academic and professionalism "strikes"; I think you can usually recover from one or the other, but both makes it tough.

 

[IslandStyle808]

It doesn't have to have been something dramatically terrible, but little problems add up as far as the Promotion & Graduation Committee (or whatever they're called at OP's school) is concerned.

I'm sure OP's a good person, but he or she has both academic and professionalism "strikes"; I think you can usually recover from one or the other, but both makes it tough.

I have to agree here, it seem like it was a snow ball effect. If these were problems independent of each other and by themselves, it would have been far less of an issue. However, together probably caused this result to occur.

 

[deleted480308]

It doesn't have to have been something dramatically terrible, but little problems add up as far as the Promotion & Graduation Committee (or whatever they're called at OP's school) is concerned.

I'm sure OP's a good person, but he or she has both academic and professionalism "strikes"; I think you can usually recover from one or the other, but both makes it tough.

exactly. I have friends who staff love but are struggling academically, there is a limit but there are certainly extra chances to be had. I have friends who are killing it academically but constantly poke the bear.....I tell them all the time I'm afraid for them if they ever face a promotion/retention committee.

 

[user3]

exactly. I have friends who staff love but are struggling academically, there is a limit but there are certainly extra chances to be had. I have friends who are killing it academically but constantly poke the bear.....I tell them all the time I'm afraid for them if they ever face a promotion/retention committee.

what exactly do you mean by "poke the bear"? "Professionalism" issues that are prone to being blown out of proportion?

 

[deleted480308]

what exactly do you mean by "poke the bear"? "Professionalism" issues that are prone to being blown out of proportion?

I mean any power structure (not just medicine) has a tendency to call anything that annoys them a "professionalism" issue. Whether they are right or not is irrelevant and a number of people (often the younger ones) want to get real open about their defiance to expectations and "poke the bear". If you do that, your grades better be on point. And "out of proportion" is also irrelevant as we don't get to decide the proportions....administration does. My administration is actually pretty great and I enjoy working with them, but I'm also not remotely confused about who is in charge. They haven't lorded it over me and I'm spoken to as an adult but it's possible my positive experience with them comes partially from knowing my place on the ladder. You'll find in life that authority figures have a naturally easier time granting freedom and grace to those that recognize their place. No one likes to be disrespected and challenged.

 

[Goro]

Oh please, this isn't about power trips, it's about students behaving either like dinguses in front of their peers, being clueless about being the mentor/mentee relationship, or worse, not fulfilling their responsibilities.

For example, the former EMT/Paramedic who keeps ignoring his cardiology preceptor because "I already know that".

Or the student who habitually shows up late for surgeries.

I take it you're not a parent, user? One thing I've learned from having kids is that there are ALWAYS two sides to every story.

SJ's bitterness has preceded him many times, so I can't take his posts seriously.

in other words, we must unconditionally submit to authority. No action or thought of theirs is questionable, because they are in charge and what they say goes.

but anyway, I think schools should primarily play the role of educator, mentor, and guide. The disciplinarian role should be an absolute last resort. If they like brandishing that whenever students might express disagreement or dissatisfaction with their decisions ("defiance"?), or not speak politely enough to their liking (all of which could easily be labeled "professionalism" issues) they are abusing their authority and creating a hostile atmosphere.

 

[deleted480308]

Oh please, this isn't about power trips, it's about students behaving either like dinguses in front of their peers, being clueless about being the mentor/mentee relationship, or worse, not fulfilling their responsibilities.

For example, the former EMT/Paramedic who keeps ignoring his cardiology preceptor because "I already know that".

Or the student who habitually shows up late for surgeries.

I take it you're not a parent, user? One thing I've learned from having kids is that there are ALWAYS two sides to every story.

SJ's bitterness has preceded him many times, so I can't take his posts seriously.

I have to agree here. The only people who have recurring issues with staff are those who keep thumbing their nose at authority figures. I'm pretty dang libertarian but the fact is that we (students) are not peers with staff. I'm a peer on a human level as a adult citizen, but in our academic interactions I am the inferior in terms of rank/knowledge/power/experience/vulnerability. And I find that almost everyone I deal with who outranks us students doesn't actually treat us poorly. They really are decent people. I respect their place and achievements, they (being decent people) treat me quite well too. It works out just fine.

Now maybe you think you found a superior who is a real jerk. That rare person who just likes crushing people beneath them. All the more reason to bow your head politely and get through whatever phase of life has you interacting with them.

Whether you think the school leadership is great or you think they are all horrible, your life is better if you treat them with courtesy. It's true in all areas of life, but it's especially true when you have as much on the line as med students do..

 

[Mjolner]

Also. I feel like people keep forgetting the golden rule:
"He who has the gold makes the rules."
Even if you ARE legitimately getting wronged sometimes it's better to go along to get along. Just because you don't like the rules doesn't mean you can ignore them.