Application process: Looking back as a 4th year

[gyngyn]

So then what are the important questions to ask to ensure that we don't end up peripheral to the teaching of clinical skills?
There has to be a way that students can sort out of which schools prioritize rotations and which schools don't.

Ask the 4th year students: "Do you feel that you are a valued member of the team on the services you have rotated?"

In reality, you will be talking to 2nd year students on an interview day, so they can only report what they have heard from the upper classmen...

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[Affiche]

@gyngyn is it common to interact with 3rd or 4th year students during interviews? From the sound of it, they're pretty rare sights for interviewees. In that case, is there a polite way to ask faculty about this?

 

[Nietzschelover]

So then what are the important questions to ask to ensure that we don't end up peripheral to the teaching of clinical skills?
There has to be a way that students can sort out of which schools prioritize rotations and which schools don't. I'm guessing that most pre-meds don't know enough (I certainly don't) to come up with the important questions about 3rd and 4th year at this stage, but it seems like those are important things to consider when choosing a school.

How many offers do the majority of successful applicants end up choosing between? Two? Four? By that point you'll probably have a good idea which one you like the most or fits you the best.

 

[Affiche]

How many offers do the majority of successful applicants end up choosing between? Two? Four? By that point you'll probably have a good idea which one you like the most or fits you the best.

Preparing me for residency is a huge factor when considering which school fits me best.

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn is it common to interact with 3rd or 4th year students during interviews? From the sound of it, they're pretty rare sights for interviewees. In that case, is there a polite way to ask faculty about this?

No. The 3rd years are on clerkships and the 4th years are impressing people on sub-I's.
You can ask the faculty but they will have a very different view of the student experience.

 

[gyngyn]

Preparing me for residency is a huge factor when considering which school fits me best.

This is the only function of medical school.

 

[Affiche]

This is the only function of medical school.

Right, but you don't think some schools do it better than others? How are we supposed to determine which schools have the strongest 3rd and 4th year curriculum while interviewing? Assuming we don't get to meet with older students, what are the important questions to ask faculty, in your opinion?

 

[md-2020]

Only thing I'll be looking at is dat match list

 

[gyngyn]

Right, but you don't think some schools do it better than others? How are we supposed to determine which schools have the strongest 3rd and 4th year curriculum while interviewing? Assuming we don't get to meet with older students, what are the important questions to ask faculty, in your opinion?

Some schools absolutely do it better. I can't think of a question a faculty member could answer to get at this, though.
Inevitably they will point to the match list as if it were an interpret-able document.

 

[Affiche]

Only thing I'll be looking at is dat match list

How are you even interpreting match lists, though? As Goro said, it's like reading tea leaves! You have no idea if people matched to their first choices or not.

 

[md-2020]

How are you even interpreting match lists, though? As Goro said, it's like reading tea leaves! You have no idea if people matched to their first choices or not.

Was only 1/3 serious about that.

I'll definitely look at the match lists, if only to see what type/level of hospital and specialties the students tend to go into. If I see a bunch of MGH/BWH/CC placements I'm just going to assume those were top choices

Though it's too way early to choose, as someone interested in a surgical subspecialty I'd definitely look at the opportunities for those fields at each school as well.

 

[Affiche]

Some schools absolutely do it better. I can't think of a question a faculty member could answer to get at this, though.
Inevitably they will point to the match list as if it were an interpret-able document.

Good, I thought I was the only one who had no clue how to interpret these!

I appreciate the honesty! Thanks gyngyn!

 

[alpinism]

So then what are the important questions to ask to ensure that we don't end up peripheral to the teaching of clinical skills?
There has to be a way that students can sort out of which schools prioritize rotations and which schools don't. I'm guessing that most pre-meds don't know enough (I certainly don't) to come up with the important questions about 3rd and 4th year at this stage, but it seems like those are important things to consider when choosing a school.

Easy.

Talk to 4th years. Ask for their email if you don't meet any during the interview.

Ask them straight up:

What is a typical day like?

-what time do you get there
-what time do you leave
-how many days per week
-do you pre round alone or just follow (shadow) the residents**
-do you usually see new patients alone (completely independent) or with residents**
-do you write your own notes (real not fake) in the EMR**
-can you place orders (to be cosigned) in the EMR**
-what types of procedures and how many did you do on each rotation**
-how many intubations, lumbar punctures, paracentesis, arthrocentesis, suturing, I/D abscesses, ABGs, central lines, etc
-on IM do you present patients to attendings and receive feedback or just watch residents present patients
-do you do complete presentations with detailed assessments and plans or just the subjective and objective portions
-on Surgery do you scrub in to all cases or only some cases
-when you do scrub in do you just retract or do you make incisions, bovie, drive the camera, tie off blood vessels, and suture
-do the surgeons teach during operations and take time to explain the relevant anatomy
-how many deliveries did you get on OB (placentas don't count!!)

** quick and dirty way to see how involved students are on most rotations

A major caveat with this is that a lot of what students are allowed to do depends on their specific team (supervising resident/fellow/attending) as well as how proactive the student is themselves. You'll see some significant variability even at the same school due to the above.

 

[alpinism]

As an aside this is probably one of the best threads in SDN history IMO.

For the most part completely agree with the OP's original advice.

Should be stickied if not already.

 

[Affiche]

As an aside this is probably one of the best threads in SDN history IMO.

For the most part completely agree with the OP's original advice.

Should be stickied if not already.

Thank you!! Those are exactly the types of questions I was looking for that I would have never known to ask on my own.
I agree, this thread has some of the best advice I've received yet. It's the first time I've been advised to focus less on pre-clinical years when choosing a school and more on the way years 3 and 4 are structured.

 

[Goro]

This is a good question, and I'd phrase it as "On rotations, do your students merely shadow or do they actually do things?"

So then what are the important questions to ask to ensure that we don't end up peripheral to the teaching of clinical skills?
There has to be a way that students can sort out of which schools prioritize rotations and which schools don't. I'm guessing that most pre-meds don't know enough (I certainly don't) to come up with the important questions about 3rd and 4th year at this stage, but it seems like those are important things to consider when choosing a school.

At our school, it's OMSII's who are on the interview panel.

is it common to interact with 3rd or 4th year students during interviews? From the sound of it, they're pretty rare sights for interviewees. In that case, is there a polite way to ask faculty about this?

I have to brag here...my OMSIII's consistently tell me that when on rotations with MS3s from some big name MD schools in our region, they're amazed that said big name students, who can rattle off obscure details of say, metabolic acidosis, haven't a clue as to how to take a history or even talk to patients. So yes, some schools definitely do the job better than others!

Right, but you don't think some schools do it better than others?

 

[Psai]

This is a good question, and I'd phrase it as "On rotations, do your students merely shadow or do they actually do things?"

At our school, it's OMSII's who are on the interview panel.

is it common to interact with 3rd or 4th year students during interviews? From the sound of it, they're pretty rare sights for interviewees. In that case, is there a polite way to ask faculty about this?

I have to brag here...my OMSIII's consistently tell me that when on rotations with MS3s from some big name MD schools in our region, they're amazed that said big name students, who can rattle off obscure details of say, metabolic acidosis, haven't a clue as to how to take a history or even talk to patients. So yes, some schools definitely do the job better than others!

Right, but you don't think some schools do it better than others?

Probably because there are too many residents and fellows.

Alpinisms post is great. You have to ask people who did the clinical years. Don't ask stupid questions like how many people to an anatomy body. The only things you need to know are if lectures are recorded and if attendance is mandatory. Also how many hours of lecture are there. 8-5 of mandatory lectures is a total waste of time

 

[efle]

@md-2020 most ****ed in recent American generations, obviously were not worse off than people growing up around bubonic plague etc. And I say that from stagnant wages/shrinking middle classes with climbing debt and education requirements, along with how everyone seems to think they are special and will be just fine with their degree in Unemployable Area X, everyone being constantly offended by everything even in an extremely safe liberal bubble, and yeah also the generally ****ed national debt and social programs were inhereting. Oh plus climate change of course

 

[takeurmeds02]

BUMP; a few pearls...

 

[eteshoe]

Wow this thread has been consistently bumped for over a decade. Let's keep the volleying up - some awesome stuff in here.

 

[NicksMD]

Great thread! I'm down to three schools. This post has put a lot of things into perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[takeurmeds02]

Wow this thread has been consistently bumped for over a decade. Let's keep the volleying up - some awesome stuff in here.

I guess it has been more than a decade...sheesh..'04 feels like maybe 5-6 years ago haha

 

[stickgirl390]

What is a gunner?

 

[Dream_big]

What is a gunner?

 

[Msughrue]

I just came back here out of curiosity if anyone still reads what i wrote...this was almost 15 years ago and amazingly people are still commenting on this post ......shows you nothing really changes in the world of human behavior and good advice on it