Applied this cycle, did not make it ! looking for advice !

[MAdental]

Hi everybody,

I am an international student ( Canadian). My application was sent out by AADSAS on july 29th 2011 and I still have not had a single interview. To be honest with you, i am not waiting for an interview anymore cause i know it is too late for me to get one. So i moved on and accepted that fact, however I have been thinking for a while and have decided to improve my application for the future cycles. I have listed my info below ( those are the number I applied with after 3 years of school)

Major: Honors Biochemistry
GPA: Overall 3.40
GPA: Science 3.42
DAT: 19/19/19
300+ hours of volunteering/leadership ( 3 different positions on and off campus)
100+ shadowing
P/F time job during 3 years of undergrad (1400 hours)

Since then I have managed a 3.7 in my 4th year and my GPA over my last 20 courses is around 3.7 as well. The volunteering hours are now around 400 hours which i think and was told ( by Dean of Indiana dent school) shows minor involvement .
So i have decided to do a masters to 1- get a new GPA 2- increase my volunteering hours 3- get top notch reference letters 4- have a second degree.

WIth my 4th year included, my GPA is around 3.5 now.

But the problem is I dont know whether i should do a Course based MS or a Thesis based one. Here in Canada, over 95% of MSc are Thesis based and ppl usually dont give much credit to people with a course based master. In my province , there is only one type of course based masters offered (Biomedical sciences ) and that's it.

I already have 3 offers for MSc from 3 professors and with my GPA I can land a 20 K scholarship each year. ( this will take 20-25 months to complete)

My GPA is also high enough to get into the course based masters program where i end up making 6k for 3 months of work in a Biotech company as a part of the practicum ( this program will take 1 year only).

So I am kinda lost ! I am not in US and i dont know the system ! Do most school prefer if you have a Course based masters or a Thesis one ? is one better than the other for the sole purpose of getting into dental school ?

Let me know what you think please ! thank you for your time.

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[Sunspear]

Retake DAT and aim for 21+ AA & TS.

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

Apply early next cycle (June). I think your DAT scores are fine, but I don't know if they are fine for an international student (since it's difficult for non US students to gain admission, you may need higher scores). How many schools did you apply to? I know some schools are considered more "Canadian friendly" so you can look into those as well.

If I were you, I would go for a course based masters. There are people who do non-thesis masters and still gain admission to professional schools. But I didn't get a masters, so maybe someone who applied to dental school with a masters might be of better help.

Good luck.

 

[MAdental]

I know I will have to take the DAT agin, 19/19 won't cut it for an international student . My mistake was that I studied for DAT in 25 days and wrote it . I should have studied for 2 months but circumstances didn't let me . I applied to all canadian friendly schools but I think I didn't get lucky !! Thanks for your input guys .

 

[lululime]

How many schools did you apply to? Which ones?

Pick the route that you will do best in. Course-based masters are good if you're disciplined and/or book smart, but thesis ones are best if you work independently/are creative/don't like attending class. Also, with course-based masters you have a really good idea when you'll be done. The time for completing your thesis can vary.

Don't lose hope---you might get into a Canadian school after all!

 

[MowgliR]

How many schools did you apply to? Which ones?

Pick the route that you will do best in. Course-based masters are good if you're disciplined and/or book smart, but thesis ones are best if you work independently/are creative/don't like attending class. Also, with course-based masters you have a really good idea when you'll be done. The time for completing your thesis can vary.

Don't lose hope---you might get into a Canadian school after all!

First questions I thought of too.

 

[MAdental]

I applied to 14. BU, Case, Creighton, Howard, Indiana, NYU, Nova, Tufts, Detroit Mercy, Louisville, Maryland, Minnesota, UoP, Midwestern-AZ. Most of them put me on wait list for interview. I did not apply to canadian schools. They take your best 3 years and the average should be around 3.7 to be competitive ! My best 3 years are around ~3.6....unless I will do a MSc which changes that to like 3.8ish. I have done a year long research course, research is fun but as you said you never know how long it will take ! I am afraid if i do a Thesis based ( you only take 2 course in 6 semesters), the schools will say that does not mean i can handle dental school curriculum. Indiana straight up told me if I do a Thesis based one, they wont consider it :O
I wana know what schools are fine with Thesis based one ! Thanks for your time

 

[lululime]

Try to increase your DAT to at least 20 before you commit to a masters. That might be all you need. Sorry I didn't answer your question properly---yes, most schools prefer course-based masters because they are more academically rigorous and is a better gauge of how you could handle the dental school curriculum. I've heard of students doing 1- or 2-yr masters in public health prior to dental/med school.

 

[MAdental]

I think if I had a 21 DAT i would have gotten some interviews but still, you never know. I think my performance over my last 20 courses should also have an effect ( I HOPE) I am definitely gona write the DAT again this year, and most probably do the 1 year course based program ! Nontheless, i think the Thesis based one is more interesting ! Undergrad all over again sounds boring Once again, thanks to all of you for your thoughts and advices.

 

[Tootyfruity]

if you're doing a thesis masters it'll be kinda douchey packing up and leaving for dental school eh

and your problem is your dats, your gpa's fine

 

[sbesbesbe]

I'm also a Canadian student and what you are saying really scares me. My gpa will be around what you have when I apply next year. I thought a gpa of 3.4~3.5 is good enough to get at least some interviews. I think it might be that you didn't apply early enough and the DAT. What is a good gpa and DAT score for Canadian students to have? Good luck!

 

[MAdental]

Oh ya, if one ends up doing a thesis based one, one MUST stay till the end. Your supervisor will basically lose it and will hate you till eternity if you just leave your project unfinished. Thats not the problem, i would be happy to do a thesis based one. as i said i have 3 offers starting may of this year, but i am afraid unlike canadian schools, american schools dont value the thesis based MS as much and just leave me hanging. And yes sbesbesbe, if you wana be on the safe side a 3.5+ is needed unless you do well on your DAT ie: 21+ ( and you see my case, a 19/19 wont cut it).

 

[MAdental]

Anybody from Canada/US who got into dental school with a Thesis based MSc?

 

[toothexplore]

Anybody from Canada/US who got into dental school with a Thesis based MSc?

i am an accepted applicant completing a thesis based masters here at UWO. my GPA is about the same as yours and i applied to 10 schools, interviewed at 2.

i have never heard of a course-based masters around here but it seems common in the US. if you decide to take on a project, you have to stick with it for the 2 years, it will be too tight to complete in a year.

I think having my thesis MSc did help my application as it was unique and showed that i had a commitment to continuing research in dental school. i did not decide that i wanted to pursue dentistry until about a year ago and so i backed up my story that while research is something i enjoy, the lack of personable experience steered me toward health care.

good luck with your next application, if you can do try the cDAT again. don't worry about carving - i failed it lol, but i did get 21+ in the other sections

oh and also, supervisors HATE taking on grad students who want to go to professional school. so try not to do dental-related stuff in the lab. the best idea would be to complete your thesis at a dental research lab if you are sure you want to do the MSc route

but i still think having a higher GPA > having a masters. you could get lucky next application without having to complete a MSc.
If i could go back in time i would have just done another year of undergrad to boost GPA

 

[MAdental]

Thanks wzhu. So BU and USC gave you an interview after they saw your grade for the thesis based program ! That means either one should do the deed !!

 

[toothexplore]

Thanks wzhu. So BU and USC gave you an interview after they saw your grade for the thesis based program ! That means either one should do the deed !!

not necessarily. my 4.0 post bac GPA is only based on 2 courses, which was the graduation requirement for my Msc, and hardly significant in weight for apps. i don't think having a thesis based Msc will ever makeup for a less than stellar GPA, but helps for conversation during interview. i would not pursue a project based masters if you are 100% sure that you don't want to get into research in your future

 

[predencorey]

Apply to MWU-IL next cycle. The dean said they took 6 Canadians last cycle. I don't know if that will be a trend or not. He tried to play it off like it wasn't something they planned but he is Canadian too so I have my doubts.

 

[Kentuckylover]

I guarantee you will get better chances if you....

1. Retake DAT and improve your scores. At least AA 20~21, TS 20~22 and PAT 19 or above.
2. Work or volunteer at places where you can show your "commitment to service"
3. Take your "TIME" and work on your personal statement. (------ This is really important. Don't make a boring story, but include your uniqueness relating to dentistry. Do not ever write it as a college application essay.
4. I see that you are an international student. Dental schools would give you a positive point if you include that "you would like to practice in the states". Obviously, don't lie if you are not going to, but if you are willing to do that, please include that somewhere in your personal statement.

My stats last year were AA18, TS18 and PAT 20. This year, I retook and scored AA 22, TS 22 and PAT 26. My GPA was 3.5 overall and 3.7 sci. I didn't do any master or special program. Graduated from well known college with bio degree. I also completely rewrote my personal statement.

Last year, I was only invited to two interviews and got into only one dental school. However, because of some changes I made, I was invited to 10 interviews and got into multiple schools out of 15 dental schools I applied. Rejected from two schools as well, but things happen. If you need help later, please pm me.

Good luck!

 

[MAdental]

Thanks guys ! I was wondering if i sent an email to schools and gave them my AADSAS number, would they look at my application and make some comments about the strengths, weakness, what to do to improve it and etc.
or would they just ignore that ?

 

[hardline]

I'm confused as to why you didn't get an interview. Those stats seem solid and your EC's are good as well.

True if you want to improve your DAT that would be ideal, however your continued interest in dentistry will likely get you an interview next go around. Apply the earliest you can next cycle, make sure you have everything you need. Also get on top of those secondary's immediately after you receive them.

That's a recipe for success in my opinion. Good luck

 

[MAdental]

I am not happy with the results as well, but the past is gone and I need to make things better for this upcoming cycle. speaking of making things better, i managed to get better marks in my forth year ! I think my DAT needs fixing too ! I will get on that this summer.

I am also thinking, maybe i applied late. I should have applied early june before i wrote the DAT. Instead, i waited till July 14th and then submitted my application ( i took the DAT on july 14th as well).
I just want to contact schools and see why they did not give me a chance ? was it the GPA, DAT, EC ? Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[ethylalcohol]

probably b/c ur an international student

 

[hmmmmm]

I am not happy with the results as well, but the past is gone and I need to make things better for this upcoming cycle. speaking of making things better, i managed to get better marks in my forth year ! I think my DAT needs fixing too ! I will get on that this summer.

I am also thinking, maybe i applied late. I should have applied early june before i wrote the DAT. Instead, i waited till July 14th and then submitted my application ( i took the DAT on july 14th as well).
I just want to contact schools and see why they did not give me a chance ? was it the GPA, DAT, EC ? Thanks everyone for your help.

It's your gpa and dat.

the fact that you're an international means you have to have above average gpa and dat.

I'm a Canadian with worse ec and same submit date but with better stats and i got accepted.

 

[MAdental]

I am going to fix the the DAT scores but my undergrad education is almost over and my final GPA will be 3.5. So does that mean I will have to do a course based one ? what do you thinK? what schools did you get interview from?
And how high are your stats?

Thanks hmmmmm

 

[hmmmmm]

I am going to fix the the DAT scores but my undergrad education is almost over and my final GPA will be 3.5. So does that mean I will have to do a course based one ? what do you thinK? what schools did you get interview from?
And how high are your stats?

Thanks hmmmmm

accepted to udm, withdrew interview from usc and case. Final review from uop (probably rejected) and rejected from temple.

Schools really care about a solid gpa

When i was interviewing at udm the interviewer was impresses i had ~160 science credits (did 2 year undergrad and 3 year pharmacy)

22/21/22 aa/ts/pat

3.56 sgpa
3.55 ogpa

I would do a course based one to boost . Also apply earlier

 

[MAdental]

Thank You !!

 

[lemoncurry]

I would not start a thesis MSc unless you plan on finishing it. I did not get accepted my first year of applying, and I did not know what to do with the next year. I had a pretty good working relationship with the professors in the biology dept at my undergrad, and I ended up getting permission to stay on as a postbacc student but they allowed me to take some grad level courses. I also worked in a research lab and did some TA work as well. I did not want to get out of academia but I did not want to start something I couldn't finish. It might be worth your while to look into something like that.

 

[MAdental]

If I did do a Thesis based one, I would make sure that I apply to dent school after I get my degree. But it seems like the problem is my GPA and Thesis based masters do not really help with fixing that ! Msc student in Canada end up taking 2 courses in 6 semesters while doing research and that is not enough for boosting a 3.5 GPA nor is it enough to show you can handle heavy course based curriculum !
It is the opposite here in Canada ! if you do a Thesis based MSc, dental/medical schools give you extra points and some even count that 1 course grade as full year of undergrad, meaning if you get a 4.0 in your masters ( taking 1 course) they count that as 4.0 for a full year of undergard. You see the difference in the systems!!! And it is department policy that ONLY MSc students can take MSc courses !
I like research, but my goal is not to be a scientist or a researcher ! I wana be a DDS. Now i gota go tell the other 3 profs that i am gona do a course based masters and they will think i am crazy
I hope I make next time ! Thank you all.

 

[periopocket]

If I were you I would not do a masters, in fact its kind of a risk when your gpa is already at a 3.5 gpa. I would hang on to the gpa, retake the dat grab a 21+, and do extensive shadowing, volunteering, assisting, fill out your resume with EC's. Apply early, and broadly, and make sure that NYU, BU, Midwestern Il, USC, Case, and Minnesota are on your list. You will have a great shot next year!

 

[MAdental]

You think so ? My GPA is 3.5 but my GPA over my last 20 courses which are mostly upper level biochem classes is a 3.7. I am afraid that schools are gona miss that point. I was thinking of doing a M.S to prove to them that I can do this.
P.s if i dont do a M.S , what am i gona do starting sept? What if they dont give me interviews again cuz i am international ! I thought I do the M.S and in case i dont land any interviews, I have something to work with for the cycle after that !
But you are right,it is kinda risky to start a new program. In my opinion a 3.5 in a major like honors Biochem, from a well-known university is good enough.

 

[periopocket]

Hey buddy, I am in no way the best role model to be giving you advice, I'm on a wait list myself. I've talked to many adcom's though, and they all gave me very insightful advice, from which I am preaching. I started a masters in bio myself. I just want you to know, that no matter what people say, a Masters in Biology is harder than undergrad. I'm doing well don't get me wrong, but I was forced to do this (3.2 GPA 20/20/21 DAT, 3.8 gpa last two years for trend), If I had a 3.5 gpa, I would do many other things to make myself a better applicant, than diving into more education, many others may disagree with me. I think your point could be made, by rocking the DAT, and possibly getting some really unique experiences. Up to you, if you really wanna do a masters do it up and best of luck to you friend!!!

 

[MAdental]

Thanks I appreciate your help. At least you got interviews and on a wait list , which I am sure will end in your favor . You see sometimes I don't even know what's going on !! The thought of not being in school or wasting / not using my time wisely scares me . I can definitely add to my EC but I think all of that EC stuff is just a joke ! You know it, you need numbers to be seen, 500+ hours of EC didn't get me anywhere . I am trying to maximize my chances in a very short time and thats kinda hard. I emailed schools and they said I need to raise my gpa and DAT scores ( my old 3.4 and19s) . MIst said do a SMP !!!
Nonetheless , I thank you for taking the time to write to me . I appreciate it . I don't know what will happen , but I shall decide soon

 

[periopocket]

SMP is better.

 

[MAdental]

So you said you are doing a M.S in biology . Is it a SMP /1 year coursed based or a thesis based one??

 

[periopocket]

Course Based, but I will also be doing 6 credits of reserach over the summer on S. Mutans modulation of molecular genetics in stressful environments, and their ability to be the key cariogenic bacterium. I get to chose my classes except for 4 credits required: Biostatistics and publishing scientific paper. Other than that Im taking: Immunology, Molecular Biology, Comparative Physiology, Anatomy, Principles of Virology, Endocrinology, Medical Microbiolology, by choice. So its not an SMP, could only enroll for this one because of spring start.