Applying to MD programs with a research-oriented career goal.

[tomiyan]

Hey guys,

I want to ask your opoinion about applying to MD programs with a passion for research. I received my BS in Fall 2008 in the US. After graduation, starting from a lab technician in an iPS cell research institution in Japan, I worked my way up to becoming a researcher in a university hospital.
I want to apply to MD-only programs, but I am afraid that adcoms would think my intent fits better with the goal of MD/PhD programs. The reason why I want to go for the MD-only track is that I am confident that I have already had enough research experience and skills. I have secured a research position that is usually for pos-docs. I have an on-going project and am a co-author of two published papers and three submitted papers. So I think going for the MD track to get experience in medical practice earlier is more beneficial for what I want to do in the future than spending 3 extra year on research training. I want clinical experience and real research opportunity rather than research training. Also, there are many great researchers with only MD. Even if I felt I needed more research training in the future, a lot of —if not all— residency programs and fellowship programs offer research training.
Besides those reasons, I would have to compete for the tiniest number of spots if I was applying to MD/PhD since I'm not a citizen or a permanent resident.
Please let me know what you guys think. Would I have better chance to get accepted to an MD-only program if I somehow make myself sound less research-oriented? Or should I go for MD/PhD? Do most of MD/PhD applicants start with a similar credential? Am I just overestimating my research experience and skills?

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[Earl Simmons]

I think you will be fine applying to MD programs. There are a lot of MD-only applicants who have done a lot of research and, like you said, you have the research background already so I would have recommended to not do MD-PhD anyways and admissions committees are smart enough to know that as well.

 

[Holmwood]

Hey guys,

I want to ask your opoinion about applying to MD programs with a passion for research. I received my BS in Fall 2008 in the US. After graduation, starting from a lab technician in an iPS cell research institution in Japan, I worked my way up to becoming a researcher in a university hospital.
I want to apply to MD-only programs, but I am afraid that adcoms would think my intent fits better with the goal of MD/PhD programs. The reason why I want to go for the MD-only track is that I am confident that I have already had enough research experience and skills. I have secured a research position that is usually for pos-docs. I have an on-going project and am a co-author of two published papers and three submitted papers. So I think going for the MD track to get experience in medical practice earlier is more beneficial for what I want to do in the future than spending 3 extra year on research training. I want clinical experience and real research opportunity rather than research training. Also, there are many great researchers with only MD. Even if I felt I needed more research training in the future, a lot of —if not all— residency programs and fellowship programs offer research training.
Besides those reasons, I would have to compete for the tiniest number of spots if I was applying to MD/PhD since I'm not a citizen or a permanent resident.
Please let me know what you guys think. Would I have better chance to get accepted to an MD-only program if I somehow make myself sound less research-oriented? Or should I go for MD/PhD? Do most of MD/PhD applicants start with a similar credential? Am I just overestimating my research experience and skills?

You can certainly do research-oriented MD so long as you get a sufficient background during training. But what about the road to getting an MD? You need the GPA, the MCAT, the extracurriculars, and the ability to express your desire to become a physician. Are you even interested in treating patients? Or are you just interested in researching therapeutics?

If you want to do solely medical research with minimal patient interaction, then it may be better to just do a PhD program and work in medically relevant field (like biotech). With your level of experience, it shouldn't be too difficult to get a PhD.

 

[NoDakDok]

There are plenty of research-oriented MD programs out there. They are generally the large universities, or the upper tier private universities. But, getting into those program is generally a bit more competitive, at least in the "numbers" category (MCAT/GPA). These schools love significant research experience and you would be fine applying MD-only, assuming you have the numbers.

Like the previous poster said, if you don't specifically want to work with patients, I'd seriously consider the PhD route.

 

[Ismet]

Just make sure you have plenty of clinical exposure to balance out that research. The people we consider more suited for PhD or MD/PhD are clearly research focused with minimal clinical exposure to match. Obviously you need clinical exposure for MD/PhD as well, but an overwhelming bias to research isn't a typical MD-only picture.

There are plenty of programs, especially at the top, that highly value research experience. If you have the numbers and the clinical experience to show, you would probably do very well.

 

[tomiyan]

Thank you all for your insights!

Now I understand research-oriented MD applicants are acceptable at least in general for some schools. I do not have much of clinical exposure yet, and it may be hard to get it because I live in japan, but I will try even if it takes a few years.

However, as Holmwood, NoDakDok, and Ismet pointed out, now I wonder if adcoms or you guys think the PhD route is the best for me.
If you guys don't mind, I'd like to share why I am considering getting MD and hear what you guys think.

I do not have a life changing, dramatic experience that pushed me towards practicing medicine. I may sound egoistic, but through my research, I began to feel like I want to be able to find a new treatment and be able to treat patients with it hopefully by the time I retire. It would be interesting to see if the treatment actually worked, and if it did I would be ecstatic.
Besides the "I am interested" part, I came to realize that having clinical experience is helpful —if not necessary— to do the type of research I want to do. When My Co-worker, PhD and I was developing a mouse model, we often encountered the situation where we needed to consult Another Co-worker, MD, PhD. We knew what the typical symptom or pathology looked like, but there were so many borderline cases, so we needed someone with experience treating variety of patients ranging from mild cases to severe cases.
Likewise, Im afraid I will have to rely on someone else's experience when I work on developing a new treatment. And I believe that the research should continue even after the new treatment pass the clinical trial in order to improve the treatment. To do so, it is invaluable to get the mental and physical feedback through the patient care and incorporate it to the research.
I do want to work with patients, but I would say I'm more interested in saving mass of patients' lives by mixing patient care and research rather than practicing one-to-one patient care just for the sake of treating patients in front of me.

 

[malick1]

If your grades and MCAT are good , Harvard HST will love ya !! (https://hst.mit.edu/academics/md)

 

[mcloaf]

Assuming the rest of your application is fine I think you could absolutely get accepted to an MD program. My concern is whether or not you're going to hate it and want to drop out. Getting an MD because you think it will make your research better is not a recipe for enjoying medical school. This isn't meant to be negative or combative, but it's something worth considering very carefully because medical school/residency is a grind that often really sucks even for people who are there to train to be full time clinicians. The adage is that if you can see yourself doing something else, you should. If you see yourself being fulfilled as a researcher without the responsibility and stress of direct patient care then don't go to medical school.

 

[tomiyan]

Malic1, thank ou for the link. Even though I am not eligible to this particular program because I did not tatake all those upper-class math courses, its relieving to see an example of an MD program thatfocuses on research.

Mcloaf, I really appropriate you for helping me to see this from a different angle. My honest answer is I do not know if I like medical school and residency. I think that's what adcoms would want to know. I am expecting to have some idea through shadowing and taking a few courses in a medical school in Japan before I apply. With my purpose of going to a med school in mind, would you advise me to be able to feel that I love studying and getting clinical training in med school and residency and working with patients? Or is just feeling "I can live with that" enough, if it's not ideal?

My GPA is 3.7 and took some graduate-level courses. It is not amazing, but still I think it can be compensated by an awesome MCAT score. I wanted to know if I had a chance of getting accepted to an MD program with my intent before starting being fully committed to preparation for the aoplication because it would suck to know adcoms think my intent is not appropriate after I have perfectlly prepared everything else.

 

[Holmwood]

Malic1, thank ou for the link. Even though I am not eligible to this particular program because I did not tatake all those upper-class math courses, its relieving to see an example of an MD program thatfocuses on research.

Mcloaf, I really appropriate you for helping me to see this from a different angle. My honest answer is I do not know if I like medical school and residency. I think that's what adcoms would want to know. I am expecting to have some idea through shadowing and taking a few courses in a medical school in Japan before I apply. With my purpose of going to a med school in mind, would you advise me to be able to feel that I love studying and getting clinical training in med school and residency and working with patients? Or is just feeling "I can live with that" enough, if it's not ideal?

My GPA is 3.7 and took some graduate-level courses. It is not amazing, but still I think it can be compensated by an awesome MCAT score. I wanted to know if I had a chance of getting accepted to an MD program with my intent before starting being fully committed to preparation for the aoplication because it would suck to know adcoms think my intent is not appropriate after I have perfectlly prepared everything else.

You already have a strong background in basic sciences. So I take back what I said about getting a PhD, because you won't exactly benefit from the additional training.

There are research residencies you can take after graduating from medical school just to prepare you for clinical research. It is often noted that MD/PhDs are desirable for these residencies, but other candidates with a strong background in the basic sciences are also considered desirable (which is your case).

Here is an example:
http://icahn.mssm.edu/departments-a...icine-residency/curriculum/research-residency

Your reasons for entering a MD school to do clinical research is valid. MDs lack the sophisticated training in basic sciences, and PhDs lack the extensive knowledge of managing a patient following treatment. MD/PhDs are thus highly desirable for clinical research, but an MD with extensive research should be able to operate on the same level. So you should not have very much issues getting into an MD school, so long as the school is research focused.

 

[sunflower18]

Be prepared to answer why not MD/PhD, though. I'm still in undergrad and have only been doing parttime research for three years with no publications, but I still got asked by multiple interviewers why I wasn't going MD/PhD. You will surely get this question more often than I have, so make sure you have a good answer at the ready.

CCLCM would be a good fit for you too. Good luck!!

 

[tomiyan]

Thank you Holmwood.
"an MD with extensive research should be able to operate on the same level." That's what I think too. This relieves me a lot. I hope the adcoms will
think the same when it comes to my interview.

Sunflower18, I ddidn't know about CCLCM. But it looks great. I will definitely consider applying. Thank you!
I am worried that they would ask the same question—why not MD/PhD?
My honest answer is 1. I think I had enough of training in research; 2. I am getting old so I want to start my career as soon as possible and practice medicine three years longer ; 3.there are way less MD/PhD spots for non-citizen or non-permanent resident. I read somewhere that you should be humble, so I am guessing I should not mention the first answer. I do not know about the second and the third answers. I am sure the second one is valid in Japan because adcoms in Japan are so keen about your age. Would the third answer make me sound passive and ppessimistic? Sorry if I am asking stupid questions. It is difficult to guess how American adcoms' mind would process what I would say.

 

[Holmwood]

Thank you Holmwood.
"an MD with extensive research should be able to operate on the same level.." That's what I think too. This relieves me a lot. I hope the adcoms will
think the same when it comes to my interview.

Sunflower18, I ddidn't know about CCLCM. But it looks great. I will definitely consider applying. Thank you!
I am worried that they would ask the same question—why not MD/PhD?
My honest answer is 1. I think I had enough of training in research; 2. I am getting old so I want to start my career as soon as possible and practice medicine three years longer ; 3.there are way less MD/PhD spots for non-citizen or non-permanent resident. I read somewhere that you should be humble, so I am guessing I should not mention the first answer. I do not know about the second and the third answers. I am sure the second one is valid in Japan because adcoms in Japan are so keen about your age. Would the third answer make me sound passive and ppessimistic? Sorry if I am asking stupid questions. It is difficult to guess how American adcoms' mind would process what I would say..

Well there is also the PA route (2 years) if time is of such a concern to you. There are immense research opportunities for PAs specifically because they can train in multiple specialties which becomes quite an asset when you're doing interdisciplinary research. Their ability to manage a patient's condition during treatment is also comparable to that of an MD. There's also PA/PhD programs (6 years), and that's something to consider before dismissing the PhD route altogether.

MD/PhD spots are small to begin with, so the third point is somewhat valid. You do face increased competition if you are an international student applying to MD as well, which will limit your medical school options.

Even so, to convince adcoms about your suitability to pursue MD programs, you really should talk about why you want to spend the bulk of your day dealing with sick and dying people. You're going to have a hard time convincing adcoms that PhD is not the right option for you if you don't talk about your love for patients. You can mention that you do have a passion for treating patients (with appropriate life experiences to serve as evidence), but felt a greater need to help push new therapeutics out for diseases that can't be properly treated with today's level of tech. You can then talk about your goal of pursing a research-oriented residency following medical school to both treat patients and research new therapeutics. All the other reasons you listed such as having extensive research experience and being too old to do an MD/PhD shouldn't be the main focus, but can be mentioned as an aside.

 

[claduva94]

Are you a US resident or an international student? Is your goal to do work in the United States or Japan?

 

[tomiyan]

Well there is also the PA route (2 years) if time is of such a concern to you. There are immense research opportunities for PAs specifically because they can train in multiple specialties which becomes quite an asset when you're doing interdisciplinary research. Their ability to manage a patient's condition during treatment is also comparable to that of an MD. There's also PA/PhD programs (6 years), and that's something to consider before dismissing the PhD route altogether.

MD/PhD spots are small to begin with, so the third point is somewhat valid. You do face increased competition if you are an international student applying to MD as well, which will limit your medical school options.
.
Even so, to convince adcoms about your suitability to pursue MD programs, you really should talk about why you want to spend the bulk of your day dealing with sick and dying people. You're going to have a hard time convincing adcoms that PhD is not the right option for you if you don't talk about your love for patients. You can mention that you do have a passion for treating patients (with appropriate life experiences to serve as evidence), but felt a greater need to help push new therapeutics out for diseases that can't be properly treated with today's level of tech. You can then talk about your goal of pursing a research-oriented residency following medical school to both treat patients and research new therapeutics. All the other reasons you listed such as having extensive research experience and being too old to do an MD/PhD shouldn't be the main focus, but can be mentioned as an aside.
.

Holmwood, I haven't heard much about PA. I think it could be right for me. I will look up more about it. Again thanks for providing me with lots of information.
And I am sorry, but I'm confused.
Do you think I should be able to show adcoms I have passion for treating patients but feel the need for a new treatment or technology when it comes to medical school VS grad school? And when it comes to MD VS MD/PhD, I can mainly talk about the available MD/PhD spots for international students?
Thanks to you and other people on sdn, I think I know how to tackle "why don't you go to a PhD program?" question. But I am still not quite sure what is appropriate to say if they ask me why I chose an MD program but not an MD/PhD program. I guess if I can't answer that question I shouldn't apply for MD only programs...I think it's unfair of them to be so keen about why I don't go for MD/PhD when they have both a research-oriented MD program and an MD/PhD program. I almost want to ask them back why they have both programs especially when they want research-oriented applicants to enter an MD/PhD program.

 

[tomiyan]

Are you a US resident or an international student? Is your goal to do work in the United States or Japan?

I'm not a US citizen or a permanent resident. I came back to Japan after I graduated and have been working in Japan. My goal is to work in the states.

 

[claduva94]

I'm not a US citizen or a permanent resident. I came back to Japan after I graduated and have been working in Japan. My goal is to work in the states.

Ok. Then a medical degree from the states should definitely be your goal should you choose to go that route. However, keep in mind that admissions are far more competitive for international students. I won't comment on the "should I pursue a MD" because I think it has been sufficiently discussed. I just wanted to clarify your goals and make that point. Best of luck. It won't be easy but it isn't impossible!

 

[Holmwood]

Do you think I should be able to show adcoms I have passion for treating patients but feel the need for a new treatment or technology when it comes to medical school VS grad school?

Absolutely. There should always be the focus on the patients' welfare.

And when it comes to MD VS MD/PhD, I can mainly talk about the available MD/PhD spots for international students?

I wouldn't put it in your application, come to think of it. It can be one of many reasons to not apply to MD/PhD, but you're likely going to tell the adcom during the eventual interview... if they ask. @_@

Thanks to you and other people on sdn, I think I know how to tackle "why don't you go to a PhD program?" question. But I am still not quite sure what is appropriate to say if they ask me why I chose an MD program but not an MD/PhD program.

Well, you will first want to persuade them that you can do basic research at the PhD level. Listing your credentials as a hospital researcher doing cutting edge IPS work should be sufficient. You can then, perhaps, express that you are interested in doing translational medicine and not just basic research, which compelled you to apply for an MD. And while you are open to an MD/PhD, you feel that you have already got a good head start on basic research (which you will remind them of your credentials working as a hospital researcher) and feel that any holes in preparation can be covered during residency and fellowship.

Any issues about your compassion for patients and altruistic nature can be rectified in the personal statement and description of other extra curriculars.


If you're still not reassured, I would email adcoms at top research schools and tell them about your situation. Because yours is an unusual case where you have had extensive basic research experience but never got an MS or PhD.

 

[tomiyan]

Do you think I should be able to show adcoms I have passion for treating patients but feel the need for a new treatment or technology when it comes to medical school VS grad school?

Absolutely. There should always be the focus on the patients' welfare.

And when it comes to MD VS MD/PhD, I can mainly talk about the available MD/PhD spots for international students?

I wouldn't put it in your application, come to think of it. It can be one of many reasons to not apply to MD/PhD, but you're likely going to tell the adcom during the eventual interview... if they ask. @_@

Thanks to you and other people on sdn, I think I know how to tackle "why don't you go to a PhD program?" question. But I am still not quite sure what is appropriate to say if they ask me why I chose an MD program but not an MD/PhD program.

Well, you will first want to persuade them that you can do basic research at the PhD level. Listing your credentials as a hospital researcher doing cutting edge IPS work should be sufficient. You can then, perhaps, express that you are interested in doing translational medicine and not just basic research, which compelled you to apply for an MD. And while you are open to an MD/PhD, you feel that you have already got a good head start on basic research (which you will remind them of your credentials working as a hospital researcher) and feel that any holes in preparation can be covered during residency and fellowship.

Any issues about your compassion for patients and altruistic nature can be rectified in the personal statement and description of other extra curriculars.


If you're still not reassured, I would email adcoms at top research schools and tell them about your situation. Because yours is an unusual case where you have had extensive basic research experience but never got an MS or PhD.

Thank you very very much for answering every single question I had. It's all clear now, and I have better idea of this whole application business. I will work hard not to waste your kindness, and hopefully I can tell you a good news in a few years!!

 

[tomiyan]

Ok. Then a medical degree from the states should definitely be your goal should you choose to go that route. However, keep in mind that admissions are far more competitive for international students. I won't comment on the "should I pursue a MD" because I think it has been sufficiently discussed. I just wanted to clarify your goals and make that point. Best of luck. It won't be easy but it isn't impossible!

Thank you for your concern. I was actually thinking of going to a med school in Japan and do residency in the states before, but I have decided to do the whole process in the states.