Are you sure you want to be a doctor?

[senseiturtle]

3 things-


1- Doctors don't make money practicing medicine. They make money running a buisness around their practice of medicine. Learn about tax shelters, deductions, justifiable expenses, etc. etc... and you knock down what starts as a 40% combined tax rate (fed +soc. sec.+state +medicare, approximated for 120K+ salary) to something much more managable.

2- If you feel threatened by not driving a ferrari, and decide you don't want to be a doc, kindly give up your place in the entering class. Someone will be more than happy to take your place.

3- Start voting to keep socialized medicine out of the US. Let the free market continue. There is at least one d-bag running for office who would love to see every doctor working for the federal government, getting paid a flat rate of 95k/year (edwards, same guy who made millions suing OBGYNs for cone-head babies, which turns out to be full of B.S.).

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[45408]

House payment: $1,500
Health Insurance: for a family of 5 - it all depends on your policy
Car insurance: 500 dollars/3 months (for a small used car)
Groceries: 400/month
Utilities: 100/month
Bills: 150/month (cable, internet, etc)
School debt: 800/month

$1500 a month, for Manhattan? Try tripling that. Even for a middle-class house in Milwaukee, you can double that mortgage. Then figure out what it costs to replace the roof on your house, or the furnace, etc. My parents monthly health insurance premium is $2000 a month. Try that on for size. And doesn't your model family have to buy a car as well? There's another $450 a month for just one car. Your bills are pretty lean as well, especially if your school loan is for med school.

 

[dewdrinker23]

People need to remember what it takes to survive in this country. You don't need a big house, you don't need a big expensive car, you don't need to live in a really big city (so what if you match at a hospital in NY, you can always leave to work some other place after residency...don't you have some say in where you can match?), you don’t need to eat out every weekend, you don't need to go shopping every weekend, etc. All you really need is a place to sleep, eat, a car to drive if you live in a rural place, a place to shower, etc.

Everything else is just extra!!!!! We Americans live in a world of luxury. The more luxury items we have to buy, the more money you need to buy them.

So the physician profession is going through some change. That is a good thing if it is better for the consumer. Physicians are not the focal point of medicine, the consumer is.

I don’t have any sympathy for a physician crying about only making 120k before or after taxes. You chose to be a doctor. No one made you become a doctor.

 

[dewdrinker23]

$1500 a month, for Manhattan? Try tripling that. Even for a middle-class house in Milwaukee, you can double that mortgage. Then figure out what it costs to replace the roof on your house, or the furnace, etc. My parents monthly health insurance premium is $2000 a month. Try that on for size. And doesn't your model family have to buy a car as well? There's another $450 a month for just one car. Your bills are pretty lean as well, especially if your school loan is for med school.

The 1500 a month was not a calculation for Manhattan. Where the heck did you pull that out of? It must suck to be your parents for having to pay 2,000k for the health insurance premium. You can easily buy a new family care for less then 450 dollars a month.

I have a brother that lives in Milwaukee and purchased a house for only 1500 dollars a month. He has a nice house. It is not a big house, but who gives a crap about that.

 

[senseiturtle]

Secondly, my parents have a COMBINED income of approx. 140,000... and we've had every luxury I could ever want.

$500,000+ house
home insurance
life insurances
health insurances
5 cars ( 3 toyotas, 2 jeeps )
5 car insurances
$100,000 condo for the kids to go to college
3 kids put through college
all typical bills
etc. etc.

I don't see why some people are so bleak about their financial future. People are doing a LOT MORE with a LOT LESS than what a physician makes... it's all about money management.

Again, if you're freaking out about your "limited earning potential," feel free to step down. Someone will gladly take your spot in an entering class.

 

[45408]

The 1500 a month was not a calculation for Manhattan. Where the heck did you pull that out of?

Did you bother reading the article linked to in the first post or not?

It must suck to be your parents for having to pay 2,000k for the health insurance premium. You can easily buy a new family care for less then 450 dollars a month.

No, they couldn't. Especially not with certain pre-existing medical conditions (for, oh, cancer, like my dad has). My dad runs his own business, and if he could cut his costs that much, they would have. Trust me, he's looked.

I have a brother that lives in Milwaukee and purchased a house for only 1500 dollars a month. He has a nice house. It is not a big house, but who gives a crap about that.

Who gives a crap? Um, tons of people like a decent-sized house, especially if you have 2-4 children.

 

[45408]

Secondly, my parents have a COMBINED income of approx. 140,000... and we've had every luxury I could ever want.

$500,000+ house

That could be what the house is worth now, but do you know what they bought it for? Probably a lot less.

 

[Auron]

Secondly, my parents have a COMBINED income of approx. 140,000... and we've had every luxury I could ever want.

$500,000+ house
home insurance
life insurances
health insurances
5 cars ( 3 toyotas, 2 jeeps )
5 car insurances
$100,000 condo for the kids to go to college
3 kids put through college
all typical bills
etc. etc.

I don't see why some people are so bleak about their financial future. People are doing a LOT MORE with a LOT LESS than what a physician makes... it's all about money management.

Again, if you're freaking out about your "limited earning potential," feel free to step down. Someone will gladly take your spot in an entering class.

Agree. Most people I have met are totally clueless about money management and investing. You can do a lot if you know how. I'm just a college student but have made a rather significant amount of money by investing. The potential to make money here is outstanding. Just have to have a little creativity.

 

[sirus_virus]

People need to remember what it takes to survive in this country. You don't need a big house, you don't need a big expensive car, you don't need to live in a really big city (so what if you match at a hospital in NY, you can always leave to work some other place after residency...don't you have some say in where you can match?), you don't need to eat out every weekend, you don't need to go shopping every weekend, etc. All you really need is a place to sleep, eat, a car to drive if you live in a rural place, a place to shower, etc.

Everything else is just extra!!!!! We Americans live in a world of luxury. The more luxury items we have to buy, the more money you need to buy them.

So the physician profession is going through some change. That is a good thing if it is better for the consumer. Physicians are not the focal point of medicine, the consumer is.

I don't have any sympathy for a physician crying about only making 120k before or after taxes. You chose to be a doctor. No one made you become a doctor.

Which insurance company is paying you to blog for them? Did you not notice that the decline in physician income has nothing to do with improved access/quality for the patients? But rather it has helped enrich insurance companies and HMOs.

 

[45408]

Which insurance company is paying you to blog for them?

 

[sirus_virus]

Secondly, my parents have a COMBINED income of approx. 140,000... and we've had every luxury I could ever want.

$500,000+ house
home insurance
life insurances
health insurances
5 cars ( 3 toyotas, 2 jeeps )
5 car insurances
$100,000 condo for the kids to go to college
3 kids put through college
all typical bills
etc. etc.

I don't see why some people are so bleak about their financial future. People are doing a LOT MORE with a LOT LESS than what a physician makes... it's all about money management.

Again, if you're freaking out about your "limited earning potential," feel free to step down. Someone will gladly take your spot in an entering class.

Did your parents start off a quater of a million dollars in the hole?

 

[deleted128318]

It completely depends how you earn your money. If you own your own practice, then you can work with your cash flow and business structure to protect yourself from taxes. If you're an attending at XYZ Hospital who pays you a paycheck, then you're hands are pretty much tied. Oh, and 90% of med students and physicians are completely and totally clueless when it comes to financial matters, so I would expect that even these very smart people who are in medical school will NOT be "smart enough to cover [their] a$$."

And yes, sales tax is a tax that must be paid. It counts. Just like we'll count luxury tax if you go out and buy a boat.

I didn't know we were going for class, I was under the impression we were headed for drama!

I shouldn't so much have called your stat cute, as called it inappropriate. Indeed, it was a beat-around-the-bush-y for me to use a euphemism. Regardless of who you work for, whether you have a practice, etc. to say that you lose 50% of your salary in taxes is a ludicrous statement. Is someone preparing your taxes? They should be deported if they let you do that. The maximum rate someone can pay in taxes (no deductions whatsoever, in the highest tax bracket >334k, in CA with high state taxes) is ~51-52%.

Indeed, sales tax is a tax that must be paid. It just isn't a payroll tax, which is what we are talking about. Is "classy" pointing out that sales tax is a tax?

 

[dewdrinker23]

Which insurance company is paying you to blog for them? Did you not notice that the decline in physician income has nothing to do with improved access/quality for the patients? But rather it has helped enrich insurance companies and HMOs.

I already know the relationship between insurance and clinical outcome.

 

[Biscuit799]

People need to remember what it takes to survive in this country. You don't need a big house, you don't need a big expensive car, you don't need to live in a really big city (so what if you match at a hospital in NY, you can always leave to work some other place after residency...don't you have some say in where you can match?), you don't need to eat out every weekend, you don't need to go shopping every weekend, etc. All you really need is a place to sleep, eat, a car to drive if you live in a rural place, a place to shower, etc.

Everything else is just extra!!!!! We Americans live in a world of luxury. The more luxury items we have to buy, the more money you need to buy them.

So the physician profession is going through some change. That is a good thing if it is better for the consumer. Physicians are not the focal point of medicine, the consumer is.

I don't have any sympathy for a physician crying about only making 120k before or after taxes. You chose to be a doctor. No one made you become a doctor.

Getting better for the consumer? Is that why medical costs are continually outpacing inflation, consumers are dissatisfied with their HMO, and employer based health insurance plans are costing more and more for the individual employee to afford? You've got to be kidding...

And who are you to say what is luxury and what isn't? The average impoverished American has more square footage than the average European, is extra space that luxury? What about toilets, do we really need toilets? Couldn't we just all poo outside in rivers or holes? I know it's ridiculous, but where do you draw the line between what people need and don't? You can't, it's purely subjective. The point is that it takes a lot to become a physician, and the costs are worth different things to different people, and nobody is right or wrong for wanting (or not wanting) a giant house with nice cars.

 

[dewdrinker23]

Getting better for the consumer? Is that why medical costs are continually outpacing inflation, consumers are dissatisfied with their HMO, and employer based health insurance plans are costing more and more for the individual employee to afford? You've got to be kidding...

I said IF. Read!

 

[senseiturtle]

That could be what the house is worth now, but do you know what they bought it for? Probably a lot less.

The mortgage loan is for $500,000.

I know this because my father recently acquired his contractor's license, and he's the builder. I am listed as a subcontractor on that same permit under his corporate name.

The house was completed less than 18 months ago.


The house we lived in prior to that sold for $325,000. It was a 3300 sq.ft. 4 bedroom.

 

[senseiturtle]

Did your parents start off a quater of a million dollars in the hole?

No, but my understanding is approx. 90-100k.

Mom had law school loans.
Dad was a highschool teacher for over 17 years.

Both had undergrad loans covering 100%.

 

[Glorified]

This is true, but who are you (or anyone else) to tell me (proverbially) what kind of lifestyle is or isn't "too much?" If making 120K/yr is "enough" after spending 15 years post high school and $180K of borrowed money to earn your degree, then that's fine. But nobody has the right to tell me that wanting a big house and nice cars is "wrong." If anything, it should absolutely be validated by the 80 hour work weeks over 3-7 years while being payed 30-40K (which is about average for this country for anyone), giving up of 15 years of working/lost income, and extremely high level of education. That's how and why market economies work.

I do not think wanting nice things is wrong at all. I am sorry if I implied that it was wrong to want nice things. You agreed that what I said was a true statement, so I do not see where our disagreement lies. Surely, you will agree that physicians are dedicated individuals and are a different breed than most people making similar incomes with less hours. I am not saying things should be better. The should. However, I probably should have pointed out that my post was highly subjective and by no means the objective.

 

[Biscuit799]

I didn't know we were going for class, I was under the impression we were headed for drama!

I shouldn't so much have called your stat cute, as called it inappropriate. Indeed, it was a beat-around-the-bush-y for me to use a euphemism. Regardless of who you work for, whether you have a practice, etc. to say that you lose 50% of your salary in taxes is a ludicrous statement. Is someone preparing your taxes? They should be deported if they let you do that. The maximum rate someone can pay in taxes (no deductions whatsoever, in the highest tax bracket >334k, in CA with high state taxes) is ~51-52%.

Indeed, sales tax is a tax that must be paid. It just isn't a payroll tax, which is what we are talking about. Is "classy" pointing out that sales tax is a tax?

Sorry, far be it from me to quell drama, insult on! My point was that, originally I was replying to a post where you mentioned that paying 50% of income in taxes was too high an estimate. I suggested that once you account for all forms of taxes, most of which are ashamedly overlooked by the average American, you can hit that 50% mark. While the 51-52% mark you're talking about is tough to hit for purely income taxes, it's not that hard to hit by the time you figure out what you actually got for your money. But most people want to bury their heads in the sand, vote for the 1 cent (it's only a penny) sales tax to build the stadium for the football team, and get all excited about their end-of-the-year tax refund. And after all is said and done, 120K isn't much take-home, you can't afford huge boats, and I personally thing being a doctor is worth more.

 

[Biscuit799]

I said IF. Read!

But it's objectively not. Therefore, according to your premise, the change cannot be "good." It can only be "good" if someone is gaining more than physicians are losing, which nobody is gaining, and is thus, "bad." Follow!

 

[Biscuit799]

I do not think wanting nice things is wrong at all. I am sorry if I implied that it was wrong to want nice things. You agreed that what I said was a true statement, so I do not see where our disagreement lies. Surely, you will agree that physicians are dedicated individuals and are a different breed than most people making similar incomes with less hours. I am not saying things should be better. The should. However, I probably should have pointed out that my post was highly subjective and by no means the objective.

I didn't mean to single you out, I was merely making a point that nobody can speak for others when it comes to matters of "enough." I think physicians are a different breed, but not to the extent most people want to believe. In the end, they'll end up doing what helps them financially just like everyone else.

 

[Karnage]

You people crack me up. When all is said and done, if you're a good doctor you'll make more than enough money to live comfortably. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be thousands upon thousands of people willing to put themselves through the trouble every year. I'm still at a loss as to how spoiled some of you are. Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty. The average salary in this country is around $48k if I recall, and most of the world is even less.

And believe it or not, a lot of the businessman making the money that a lot of Doctors are putting in just as many hours. The average work week for an investment banker is 70 hours not counting the amount of time they spend traveling to meet clients and what not.

 

[Eric Lindros]

You people crack me up. When all is said and done, if you're a good doctor you'll make more than enough money to live comfortably. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be thousands upon thousands of people willing to put themselves through the trouble every year. I'm still at a loss as to how spoiled some of you are. Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty. The average salary in this country is around $48k if I recall, and most of the world is even less.

And believe it or not, a lot of the businessman making the money that a lot of Doctors are putting in just as many hours. The average work week for an investment banker is 70 hours not counting the amount of time they spend traveling to meet clients and what not.

Face it Karnage, people will always find something to whine about.

 

[YupGypsy]

Just reading through half of first page makes me want to slap some people.

Typical pre-med Bull****.

 

[Glorified]

Face it Karnage, people will always find something to whine about.

I hate it when the toilet water splashes you in the ass when you are droppin one.

 

[dutchman]

You people crack me up. When all is said and done, if you're a good doctor you'll make more than enough money to live comfortably. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be thousands upon thousands of people willing to put themselves through the trouble every year. I'm still at a loss as to how spoiled some of you are. Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty. The average salary in this country is around $48k if I recall, and most of the world is even less.

And believe it or not, a lot of the businessman making the money that a lot of Doctors are putting in just as many hours. The average work week for an investment banker is 70 hours not counting the amount of time they spend traveling to meet clients and what not.

I don't think doctors earn that.

 

[Karnage]

I don't think doctors earn that.

I think you're foolish if you don't think they do at some point in their lives. I'm not talking about Doctors fresh off their residency. If you're a specialist who excels at their position, you're going to make good money.

 

[UVABranch]

I hate to be that person who won't stop arguing, but my boyfriend had to stop going to community college because he couldn't afford it. There are a lot of people who have to go right from high school to a full-time job. A lot of people also don't do well in high school because they go right from school to work, then home to bed to repeat it the next day. I studied on average 5 hours a night during high school, and I still didn't get very many merit scholarships; I can't imagine having to work as well. The money doesn't go to poor white farm kids. It goes to poor black inner city kids. I hate to say it that way, but its true.

I don't know if Podunk, MD is a real place or not, but to attend a school like UVA when I was there for instate students was like 4K in tuition....Someone could totally work and pay that off (I worked at school and made more than that). And depending on where they live they could go part time and summers to make it even more affordable. I worked throughout college because I was an OOS student and my parents couldn't afford the cost on their own in addition to other financial reasons. I had three jobs, I worked for the fball team which meant traveling and attending practices regulary, I called alumni at night to raise money thru the phone-a-thon and did catering jobs on weekends when my friends were at horse races and hanging out drinking. although possibily/probably ill advised I know people who participated in cold and flu studies becase there were no other ways to make over 1k in a week. There was no aid for me (other than loans) and my school told my parents to sell their house if they needed more money for my education. Needless to say I picked up the slack. I believe the money goes to as many people who earn it and need it as there is money to give, but not just because they are poor and black and live in a city (because believe it or not there are poor people of all colors in cities and those who were raised on farms). You shouldn't hate to say it that way because that's clearly how you feel, the "truth" however I imagine is your truth, not truth for the poor black kid from the inner city who didn't get the money because the poor white farm kid did. There are people of all backgrounds who don't recieve merit based aid, and to make such a blanket statement is likely more indicative of someone who might be just a tad bit bitter about their or someone elses circumstances.

Unfortunatly as I and other reapplicants can attest to, not matter how many hours you put in you still may not see the results you want. So maybe, just maybe that poor black kid from the inner city studied 7 hrs a night, with drive by shootings and hod other factors he/she had to overcome (single parent home, was raised by his extended family (aunts, uncles, grandparent(s), inadequate school system).

I have three jobs now, I'm finishing an MPH, studying for the MCATs again w/ TPR classes, taking classes this summer...but that's my reality. I'm ok with it because it makes me stronger. Teaches me how to manage my time, and really makes me appreciate my education and what I'm going through to get it. If it really came down to the criteria you mentioned above then every kid from the "hood" who wanted to get out would have...I however assume that is likely not the case.

Just something for you to think about that's all...
-UVABranch (Devil's Advocate)

 

[dutchman]

I think you're foolish if you don't think they do at some point in their lives. I'm not talking about Doctors fresh off their residency. If you're a specialist who excels at their position, you're going to make good money.

The great wise one,
what if, like 42% of our physician workforce, you are not a specialist?

 

[deleted128318]

Sorry, far be it from me to quell drama, insult on! My point was that, originally I was replying to a post where you mentioned that paying 50% of income in taxes was too high an estimate. I suggested that once you account for all forms of taxes, most of which are ashamedly overlooked by the average American, you can hit that 50% mark. While the 51-52% mark you're talking about is tough to hit for purely income taxes, it's not that hard to hit by the time you figure out what you actually got for your money. But most people want to bury their heads in the sand...

So, when you go out to buy a $3 beer at a bar, do you unashamedly rationalize that you are getting $2.50 worth of beer "for you money" but the rest if just taxes? What exactly are you arguing? That we don't look into the depth of the tax infrastructure when we try to calculate how much we will actually have to spend of our paycheck? That I don't actually spend the FCC taxes on my cell phone bill but that they are taken away from me in taxes?

There's nothing ashamed or "head-in-the-sand" about saying that when you bought a pair of socks, you got a pair of socks for you money... There is something "cute" about saying you really only get 70% of a pair of socks after you include the taxes on the textile company, the taxes on the transit network used for delivery and the sales tax once they get to you. To me, when you go out and buy a pack of smokes, you are freely spending that $5; the tobacco taxes aren't being taken from you. Why, if not for the sake of drama, would you include every form of taxation when trying to figure out how little of one's money they can potentially hoard? Is this aspect of our infrastructure physician-specific? Is anti-unionism what you are going for?

Back to the original assertion that you felt the need to antagonize: You get a salary. You will get to spend an excess of half of that salary.

 

[Law2Doc]

You people crack me up. When all is said and done, if you're a good doctor you'll make more than enough money to live comfortably. If this wasn't the case, there wouldn't be thousands upon thousands of people willing to put themselves through the trouble every year. I'm still at a loss as to how spoiled some of you are. Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty.

You seem to have missed the crux of the article on which this thread was initiated. The article described a "good doctor" who apparently wasn't earning "more than enough money to live comfortably" without getting a second job. And his salary was $120k, not your $200k-$300k. Sure some doctors earn that kind of money, but quite a few (particularly in the primary care sector, which is the largest of the medical sectors) are barely breaking six digits and have seen their salaries decrease and hours increase noticeably over the last decade. When you earn $120k and have to support 4 people on that in a costly part of the country (as described in the article), we shall see whether you still think it's more than enough.

 

[45408]

Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty. The average salary in this country is around $48k if I recall, and most of the world is even less.

No, I'm pretty sure that we're acting like $120K per year for a household, when the wage earner who works very hard and worked on his education for, oh, 25 years, in a state like New York, isn't the lap of luxury.

 

[opusthecat]

Predictably, this thread has turned into a discussion about how easy it is to live on 120k. I don't think the crux of the article was about physician salaries, but rather on their lack of autonomy and beholdenness to insurance companies and others. I think the amount of autonomy more closely correlates with job satisfaction than income. Whether or not 120k is enough money is not really the point so much as whether insurance companies will arbitrarily cut your income in the future. Regardless of how much I'm making, I wouldn't be happy if my income was substantially cut in the future.

 

[45408]

Regardless of how much I'm making, I wouldn't be happy if my income was substantially cut in the future.

Better yet, your responsibilities won't correspondingly decrease either.

 

[scrubsaresexy]

I don't know if Podunk, MD is a real place or not, but to attend a school like UVA when I was there for instate students was like 4K in tuition....Someone could totally work and pay that off (I worked at school and made more than that). And depending on where they live they could go part time and summers to make it even more affordable. I worked throughout college because I was an OOS student and my parents couldn't afford the cost on their own in addition to other financial reasons. I had three jobs, I worked for the fball team which meant traveling and attending practices regulary, I called alumni at night to raise money thru the phone-a-thon and did catering jobs on weekends when my friends were at horse races and hanging out drinking. although possibily/probably ill advised I know people who participated in cold and flu studies becase there were no other ways to make over 1k in a week. There was no aid for me (other than loans) and my school told my parents to sell their house if they needed more money for my education. Needless to say I picked up the slack. I believe the money goes to as many people who earn it and need it as there is money to give, but not just because they are poor and black and live in a city (because believe it or not there are poor people of all colors in cities and those who were raised on farms). You shouldn't hate to say it that way because that's clearly how you feel, the "truth" however I imagine is your truth, not truth for the poor black kid from the inner city who didn't get the money because the poor white farm kid did. There are people of all backgrounds who don't recieve merit based aid, and to make such a blanket statement is likely more indicative of someone who might be just a tad bit bitter about their or someone elses circumstances.

Unfortunatly as I and other reapplicants can attest to, not matter how many hours you put in you still may not see the results you want. So maybe, just maybe that poor black kid from the inner city studied 7 hrs a night, with drive by shootings and hod other factors he/she had to overcome (single parent home, was raised by his extended family (aunts, uncles, grandparent(s), inadequate school system).

I have three jobs now, I'm finishing an MPH, studying for the MCATs again w/ TPR classes, taking classes this summer...but that's my reality. I'm ok with it because it makes me stronger. Teaches me how to manage my time, and really makes me appreciate my education and what I'm going through to get it. If it really came down to the criteria you mentioned above then every kid from the "hood" who wanted to get out would have...I however assume that is likely not the case.

Just something for you to think about that's all...
-UVABranch (Devil's Advocate)

Oh ouch. I think I'm going to have to spend a little time crying myself to sleep because of that one.

First of all...Podunk, MD is a joke, because people call the middle of nowhere "Podunk" and I live in the middle of nowhere and go to school in the middle of nowhere.

Second of all, don't you dare insinuate that I'm racist. You don't even know me, and yet you feel inclined to tell me my own views on race? Without being 'racist' here, I'm just pointing out that a majority of underprivledged students who live in cities tend to be minorities, a majority of which are black. Is the fair/right/whatever? No, but that's how it is. There is a limited amount of money available for poorer students and when that runs out, that's it. In the area that I live in, people who live in the city tend to be significantly less able to afford the basic things that they need, simply because the cost of living is higher. Therefore, they are considered to need more need-based aid, and are more likely to get it, since it's independant of everything but finances.

Also, in-state tuition is more expensive in Maryland than in Virginia. That's great that you can get $4,000 tuition. College Park is $6,566 for tuition only, St. Mary's is $9,498, Towson is $5,180, Salisbury is $4,814, etc etc. The catch is that the price goes down as the quality of education goes down. Most of those schools are too far away for anyone who I went to school with to commute to.

And finally, don't be so presumptuous as to tell me about my life. I'm glad that you could work your way through college, but these people who I know are supporting their families. They need to be a main contributor to their family's income or their family can't eat and pay the bills. I'm not the least bit bitter. I love the school that I attend, and I'm thankful every day for the merit-based aid that I recieved. I'm thankful that my parents have offered to pay for my tuition, and I'm glad that I made that choice to attend an in-state public college because I'm getting a phenomenol education at a great price. You keep rambling on about your 'reality'...well, don't question mine.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I studied on average 5 hours a night during high school, and I still didn't get very many merit scholarships;

I have to call bull**** on this. There is no way that you studied 5 hours a night... in high school. I barely do that in med school.

but to attend a school like UVA when I was there for instate students was like 4K in tuition....Someone could totally work and pay that off (I worked at school and made more than that).

I called alumni at night to raise money thru the phone-a-thon and did catering jobs on weekends when my friends were at horse races and hanging out drinking.

Yeah instate at UVa is around 5K/semester now. Not exactly all that expensive. Most of the people I know paid their way through college. So the argument people keep spouting that people couldn't go to college b/c of money is ridiculous. The real argument is that they WOULDN'T go to college because of that money. Not going to college is a choice.

Uvabranch I hope you at least got to make 1 foxfield.

 

[scrubsaresexy]

I have to call bull**** on this. There is no way that you studied 5 hours a night... in high school. I barely do that in med school.

Haha, no I was a huge loser. I would get home from play practice (yay theatre kids!) around 5 or 6, then eat dinner and study until 11 or midnight. So maybe a little less than five hours, but there were nights that it was more. I don't have cable TV and had dial-up all throughout high school, so I didn't have that to distract me. I didn't have a car, either, so I couldn't go anywhere. Also, my parents were very strict with grades and I would be grounded for getting a B. I learned real quick that it was easier to do the work and get the A than to fight with my parents about how ridiculous they were being.

 

[45408]

Haha, no I was a huge loser. I would get home from play practice (yay theatre kids!) around 5 or 6, then eat dinner and study until 11 or midnight. So maybe a little less than five hours, but there were nights that it was more. I don't have cable TV and had dial-up all throughout high school, so I didn't have that to distract me. I didn't have a car, either, so I couldn't go anywhere. Also, my parents were very strict with grades and I would be grounded for getting a B. I learned real quick that it was easier to do the work and get the A than to fight with my parents about how ridiculous they were being.

Asian parents by chance?

 

[YupGypsy]

I think sirus posted the article to see how many *****ic reponses he would get. All of you holding "screw me" signs should go post in the residency forums and see if they share your sentiments.

I didn't know pre-meds were this smart.

 

[scrubsaresexy]

Asian parents by chance?

No, but you'd think Both of my parents grew up very poor, so they tried to make sure that my sister and I were capable of doing whatever we wanted. Fortunately, they had the foresight to make both of us work our a**es off during high school so that we would essentially be able to pick our colleges. Seems to have worked for both of us, so it looks like when I have kids, they won't be having a life either

 

[deleted128318]

No, but you'd think Both of my parents grew up very poor, so they tried to make sure that my sister and I were capable of doing whatever we wanted. Fortunately, they had the foresight to make both of us work our a**es off during high school so that we would essentially be able to pick our colleges. Seems to have worked for both of us, so it looks like when I have kids, they won't be having a life either

Huh. My friend's dad was strung out on heroin his whole life and he's going to med school.

Multiple ways to skin a cat, my friend. Don't do to your kids what your parents did to you (it sounds unreasonable, maybe the reality was more tame)

 

[sirus_virus]

I think sirus posted the article to see how many *****ic reponses he would get. All of you holding "screw me" signs should go post in the residency forums and see if they share your sentiments.

I didn't know pre-meds were this smart.

And *****ic responses I got. Take this quote for example, courtesy of an illusionist:

"I'm still at a loss as to how spoiled some of you are. Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty"

 

[scrubsaresexy]

Huh. My friend's dad was strung out on heroin his whole life and he's going to med school.

Multiple ways to skin a cat, my friend. Don't do to your kids what your parents did to you (it sounds unreasonable, maybe the reality was more tame)

I'm kind of confused as to what the heroin thing is about, but I didn't mean to make it sound like I was barred in my room to do homework all night. My freshman year, I didn't work very hard, and my grades reflected it. By the end of my senior year, I was working really hard because I wanted to, not just because my parents wanted to me to. Without their pressure, I don't think I would've done as well. I also did a lot of extra-curriculars, so I guess I had a life, but I didn't spend high school turfing and going to field parties like most of my classmates did.

 

[sirus_virus]

Predictably, this thread has turned into a discussion about how easy it is to live on 120k. I don't think the crux of the article was about physician salaries, but rather on their lack of autonomy and beholdenness to insurance companies and others. I think the amount of autonomy more closely correlates with job satisfaction than income. Whether or not 120k is enough money is not really the point so much as whether insurance companies will arbitrarily cut your income in the future. Regardless of how much I'm making, I wouldn't be happy if my income was substantially cut in the future.

Enough said.

 

[deleted128318]

I'm kind of confused as to what the heroin thing is about...

Being a junky doesn't exactly go hand in hand with the parenting that involves grounding your kids when they don't get As.

Just saying that because your parents were hard on you, you don't necessarily have to be hard on your kids to make them strive for success as you did.

I also don't advocate picking up a habit to get your kids motivated.

 

[nlax30]

Just the other day I was at my primary care Dr's office getting my immunization records ready to send off for the start of med school and we got to talking a little about the "current state of affairs" of the profession. He definitely was clear that he doesn't enjoy having to deal with insurance companies on reimbursements and treatments, and he's definitely not making the $$$ that was being made during the hay days, but that he has a very comfortable life and at the end of the day truly enjoys what he does.

That's kind of my take.... I early on learned that Docs aren't making what they once were, that dealing with insurance companies has became a huge problem and that there is more stress now about being sued, BUT, and not to be cliche or anything, I know that there is absolutely nothing else I'd rather do "career-wise" with my life. I won't have that $2million house or the Ferrari, but I'll be comfortable and doing what I've always wanted to do. If I wanted to make lots of money there are other fields I could've gone into, and then I would've traded in one set of stressors and annoyances for just another set.

 

[YupGypsy]

And *****ic responses I got. Take this quote for example, courtesy of an illusionist:

"I'm still at a loss as to how spoiled some of you are. Some of you act like $200-300k a year is living in poverty"

how about,

"People need to remember what it takes to survive in this country. You don't need a big house, you don't need a big expensive car, you don't need to live in a really big city (so what if you match at a hospital in NY, you can always leave to work some other place after residency...don't you have some say in where you can match?), you don’t need to eat out every weekend, you don't need to go shopping every weekend, etc. All you really need is a place to sleep, eat, a car to drive if you live in a rural place, a place to shower, etc.

Everything else is just extra!!!!! We Americans live in a world of luxury. The more luxury items we have to buy, the more money you need to buy them."

get real. No doc went to medical school to become poor.

 

[Biscuit799]

So, when you go out to buy a $3 beer at a bar, do you unashamedly rationalize that you are getting $2.50 worth of beer "for you money" but the rest if just taxes? What exactly are you arguing? That we don't look into the depth of the tax infrastructure when we try to calculate how much we will actually have to spend of our paycheck? That I don't actually spend the FCC taxes on my cell phone bill but that they are taken away from me in taxes?

There's nothing ashamed or "head-in-the-sand" about saying that when you bought a pair of socks, you got a pair of socks for you money... There is something "cute" about saying you really only get 70% of a pair of socks after you include the taxes on the textile company, the taxes on the transit network used for delivery and the sales tax once they get to you. To me, when you go out and buy a pack of smokes, you are freely spending that $5; the tobacco taxes aren't being taken from you. Why, if not for the sake of drama, would you include every form of taxation when trying to figure out how little of one's money they can potentially hoard? Is this aspect of our infrastructure physician-specific? Is anti-unionism what you are going for?

Back to the original assertion that you felt the need to antagonize: You get a salary. You will get to spend an excess of half of that salary.

I'm not including it for the sake of drama, I'm including it because, when figuring out how much of one's income is devoted to taxes, that number is going to be higher than just the income taxes going to one's state or national government. And, when figuring the proportion of income devoted to taxes, this amount cannot be ignored. Thus, while you're paying anywhere from 20-51 (or whatever)% of your income to income taxes, these other taxes that one does pay (all the others I included) drive that percentage upwards. And that is, for the average person, enough of a bump to push them to pay 50% (roughly) of their income to the government. I point this out to counter your argument that most people don't pay anywhere near 50% in taxes. I don't see why this is such a heated debate, or where "anti-unionism" came from...

I referred to "heads in the sand" because most people don't include these little items in personal budgets, and thus never see how much they're truly paying to the government. Then you get arguments like "how much do you really need," and "it's only a small tax raise..."

 

[8744]

Wow, I feel strange that I'm going to be the first to say that there's a lot more to being a doctor than just money.

yes, it's stressful, yes it takes up a lot of your time and money in education, yes, you'll probably lose sleep over your job, yes, it's the most intense training of any job.

But think about this, if you know that it is what you want to do, you'll find a way. I feel like there is no more rewarding job on earth. Anything that is rewarding takes a lot of stress and effort to achieve. But making people's lives better is a risk I'm willing to take, because I feel that it is my purpose, my calling.
Is money important? Absolutely. Is it my priority? not my first.

Bwahhahaa. Har har. Bhaharrarr. Stop! You're killing me!

 

[goodoldalky]

Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday.