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Army National Guard's new Med student program details.

Discussion in 'Military Medicine' started by EMH, 07.31.08.

  1. koojo

    koojo Don't Stop Believing

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    I looked into it and this is what I found:
    http://www.virtualarmory.com/education/fedbenefits/tuition_fta.aspx

    Officers must have 4 years remaining in their service contract after the last payment is made. Basically, if you commission for the standard 8 years and start med school, you could theoretically get payments for 4 years until you graduate, and still have 4 more years left on the contract. So it should work fine :)
  2. tsbuqh

    tsbuqh "Great"

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    Note: If you are a prior service officer, and have already completed your mandatory 8 year obligation incurred at commissioning, then you officially have no obligation when joining the ASR program. I fall into this category, and the recruiter told me that they like you to sign a two year commitment upon entry into the ARNG.

    Also for prior service. The 2008 defense funding act allowed for prior service members with orders to a medical student billet to be payed (base pay only) at their prior rate, not the 01E that used to be required. USUHS has put this into effect. My recuiter sent this up the ARNG chain, to see if ANRG medical students will qualify. I have yet to hear back, but if it is of a financial benefit to you, you may want to ask too. Below is the language of the act if you want it.

    National Defense Authorization 2008

    .(c) OFFICERS DETAILED AS STUDENTS AT MEDICAL SCHOOLS.-
    (1) APPOINTMENT AND TREATMENT OF PRIOR ACTIVE SERVICE.- Section 2004a of such title is amended-
    (A) by redesignating subsections (e) through (h) as subsections
    (f) through (i), respectively; and
    (B) by inserting after subsection (d) the following new
    subsection:
    ‘‘(e) APPOINTMENT AND TREATMENT OF PRIOR ACTIVE SERVICE.-(
    1) A commissioned officer detailed as a student at a medical school under subsection (a) shall be appointed as a regular officer in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign and shall serve on active duty in that grade with full pay and allowances of that grade.
    ‘‘(2) If an officer detailed to be a medical student has prior active service in a pay grade and with years of service credited for pay that would entitle the officer, if the officer remained in the former grade, to a rate of basic pay in excess of the rate of basic pay for regular officers in the grade of second lieutenant or ensign, the officer shall be paid basic pay based on the former grade and years of service credited for pay. The amount of such basic pay for the officer shall be increased on January 1 of each year by the percentage by which basic pay is increased on average on that date for that year, and the officer shall continue to receive basic pay based on the former grade and years of service until the date, whether occurring before or after graduation, on which the basic pay for the officer in the officer’s actual grade and years of service credited for pay exceeds the amount of basic pay to which the officer is entitled based on the officer’s former grade and years of service.’’.
    (2) TECHNICAL AMENDMENT.-Subsection (c) of such section is amended by striking ‘‘subsection (c)’’ and inserting ‘‘subsection (b)’’.
    SEC. 525. REPEAL OF POST-2007-2008

    .
  3. PrinceOfPersia0

    PrinceOfPersia0

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    I just got off the phone with the PA national guard about the ASR program. They told me my total commitment to them would be 12 years. I thought it was 8 however. She said once I graduate from med school and Im promoted to captain I would be recommissioned for 8 more years. Can someone explain this to me? Also how much pay will I get in the years that Im no active duty for the drills?
  4. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    They are wrong. When you said you spoke to the "PA National Guard", who was it you spoke to? If it's not a National Guard AMEDD recruiter, I wouldn't bother.

    Let me know if you need a contact. I have an absolute top-notch recruiter that helped me every step of the way, prepared my packet, then turned me over to a local recruiter when it was time to go to MEPS. The guy is far and away the best recruiter I've spoken to and made the process very easy.

    Barring that, if you go to the National Guard website and click on the milmed section, there should be a link to get the contact info of a local recruiter. This should link to the local AMEDD recruiter. Don't listen to the non-AMEDD folks as they just aren't familiar with the program.

    You owe the Guard 8 years after you're commissioned. The clock starts ticking with your commissioning. After you graduate medical school, you are transferred from activated Medical Services Corps to drilling Medical Corps. You do not lose the time you've spent towards your 8 years. It counts for retirement and obligation.
  5. koojo

    koojo Don't Stop Believing

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    Yes, that's false, once you signed a contract for 8 years, they can't default the contract and make you sign another one half way through.
  6. PrinceOfPersia0

    PrinceOfPersia0

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    yeah can you help me out, Im a NJ resident and Im thinking about going to this med school in PA if Im accepted, its a private school. Do you know how much the ARNG will pay for tuition? The person on the phone told me that for private schools its like $4000 a semester, or they pay the same amount they would pay for a public school which is much more, so I wasnt sure how it works. Thanks!
  7. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Here's a link that shows the education benefit by state. I'd verify anything it says though, if it's a decision-maker.
    You'd need to get word from the AMEDD recruiter directly to verify. For PA, the Guard pays 100% of your fees, "based upon tuition rates of Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education." Whether that is tagged as per undergrad tuition rates (bummer) or med school tuition rates (great), you'd have to ask a recruiter.

    I'm PMing the recruiter I worked with that I liked so much. He's a great guy.
  8. del Sol DOHC

    del Sol DOHC

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    .
    Last edited: 12.01.08
  9. amindwalker

    amindwalker Forgetful omniscient

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    The AMEDD recruiting & retention command in PA is currently in a state of flux. It is run at the moment by a 2LT. What she told you is not accurate. PM Notdeadyet or myself & you will be connected with the right individual (I believe it's the same Captain).
    Last edited: 12.02.08
  10. amindwalker

    amindwalker Forgetful omniscient

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    In PA, the Guard will only pay a small portion of med school tuition.

    *Federal tuition assistance (FTA) = 4.5K/year (max of 4 years) upon oath.

    *Selective Reserve Montgomery GI Bill = 3.5K/year (max of 3 years) UPON COMPLETION OF OBC.

    *Pennsylvania Educational Assistance Program (EAP) = $1,678/year (max of 4 years) UPON COMPLETION OF OBC AND MUST COMMIT TO COMPLETING ALL OBLIGATIONS IN THE PA GUARD.

    The above amounts may have changed a little, the source I am using is more than a year old.
  11. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    Amindwalker,
    Do you know if we can get the GI bill in residency and how much per month it will be? Thanks
  12. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    I'd love to hear more about this. I keep getting conflicting information.

    According to the old GI Bill, you should be able to use it for residency if you're on Active Status for two or more years, and you can take it for three years.

    The new GI Bill is funky as it is based on tuition, not a monthly amount, so I'm a little unclear as to how (or even if) it can be utilized for a residency.

    I've yet to hear if you can use the new GI bill for residency, or if folks who are just starting in the military will still be able to use the old GI Bill (not clear if it's going anywhere).

    I've gotten no firm word on this, which is unfortunate, because it could potentially be another $40K benefit to sell the program on.
  13. amindwalker

    amindwalker Forgetful omniscient

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    I have no idea.
  14. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    hmm...i'll do some digging
  15. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    Same here, I'm meeting with the education people this drill weekend and will see what I can learn. I have a feeling that some of it is still up in the air and hasn't been decided.
  16. Houser1121

    Houser1121

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    Finished National Boards today, State boards are on Monday. Getting excited.
  17. learnmore

    learnmore ASA Member

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    IatrosB (or anyone else who's been to OBC) -

    Would you mind elaborating a little more on the daily schedule at OBC? I know there was the week you were "in the field," but on the regular class days did you have any free time in the evenings or weekends? I'd like to know if I could realistically expect to get studying done while I'm there.
  18. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    I've been meaning to post a sort of day by day run down of OBLC, but short answer for you now is yes. If you are disciplined (I am not) you do have time to study. Keep in mind that it's actually 80% of time "in the field" (almost 3 weeks, not one) (ie tents and long days, no showers, etc...). That said, you will have time to study in the evening in the field, just take your books out there with you. When you are not in the field, you have plenty of time.

    Like I said though, it takes discipline. You are usually exausted after long days in the field or in the classroom...all I wanted to do was crash or hang out with the other officers in my down time.
  19. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    The thought of studying out there is a bit depressing.
  20. learnmore

    learnmore ASA Member

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    Thanks. I don't know how I got the impression that the tents were only for a week... and knowing how my intention to study in the future always overwhelms my desire to study in the present, any books I bring would likely be no more than dead weight.

    The problem is that I don't see how I can fit it in unless I do it right before Step 1. From what I understand, though, we aren't eligible for any GI Bill money nor can we be promoted to 1LT until it's completed. In total that's about about $21K to leave on the table if I can't get it in before my final year of ASR.

    ... that's what's really depressing.
  21. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Very bad idea. Focus on your Step 1. Take OBLC as a 3rd or 4th year elective.
    Are you prior service? If not, I don't think you can spend GI Bill money you haven't accumulated yet.

    Any lost wages by delaying promotion from O-1 to O-2 are minimal compared to not doing as well as you could on your Step 1. Planning to do any quality Step 1 study during OBLC might be very unrealistic.
  22. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    You can talk to your dean about taking off a rotation in the third or fourth year to go. And I agree, you have to think big picture and

    Step 1 >>>> all else
  23. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    agreed...STEP 1 takes priority over EVERYTHING military.
  24. primadonna22274

    primadonna22274 Senior Member

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    New question with a bit of a twist: anyone know if there is any exclusion in the AMEDD aggreement from simultaneous participation in another payback program? I'm specifically looking at Oregon & Iowa rural health programs for physicians that will pay back med school loans or even pay tuition/fees directly but of course that leaves cost of living, etc. uncovered. I'm more interested in the Natl Guard opportunity than I am HPSP but would like to hear what you say. Typically the state loan repayments are 1:1.
  25. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Interesting. I know HPSP specifically requires that you have absolutely no binding service agreements with any other organization or agency. I would imagine that ASR is the same.

    Is the Oregon program something you can pay back any time, or does it require you to do so immediately after residency? If it's the latter, I think you're out of luck. There is nothing to stop the Guard from activating you immediately after residency, which would violate the Oregon contract.

    Either sound like a great program. I'd figure out which form of service appeals to you more and run with that. Worst case scenario, if you go the Oregon rural med route, you can always join the Guard after you've paid them back. The National Guard would be thrilled to have you then.
  26. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    I'm actually going the other way on this one. I think it is fine. Most of those programs only require you to come back to a certain state and practice there. The guard doesn't care where you practice. Most of those programs also state that you can't have any service obligations other than the guard, the NHSC specifically states that...so I think it goes both ways. Neither one cares and encourages the other. Worth checking into though.
  27. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Ah. Your logic actually makes a lot of sense. I suppose the main objection these service programs have with military obligations is that since military is federal, you can be shipped out of state. With the Guard being state, your idea makes a lot of sense.

    I stand corrected, primadonna. iatrosB might very well be right. Check in with the Oregon people and see what they feel about Guard obligations and then post what you find out, would you? I'm sure other folks will have similar questions in the future.

    Nice catch, iatrosB...
  28. primadonna22274

    primadonna22274 Senior Member

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    I thought it was an interesting quandary also. As you can imagine giving up a comfortable income for 4 more years of med school + residency at almost 35 with a little debt is a bit of a daunting concept. Not so much that I don't want to do it, but just thinking. Also, as many folks have stated, you can't do military, or Guard for that matter, just for the money, and I'm conscientious of that. I have a dear friend who has been career Army and in the Oregon Guard for at least 15 years. She got PA school paid for out of her service but of course she had at least a decade in before that. I'll check it out. Thanks!
    Last I checked the Oregon program is more of a payback, not a scholarship. The Iowa one is a scholarship that pays your tuition at DMU while you're IN school for a hefty in-Iowa (1:1) payback. Since my family and loved ones are still mostly in Oregon I would more than likely want to return.
  29. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    I know a doc who is on the other side of residency who did this so it is possible. I would say it may depend on what the contract with your state's rural program says. Of course the military obligation would trump the state obligation should a situation come up. I'd talk to someone in the office that handles the program and get their thoughts. With the NG you would be able to live and practice where you want in your state and your obligation would be 1 weekend/mo and 2 weeks/year + the possibility of a 120 day activation every few years.

    Now I'd say the HPSP wouldn't work with the rural programs because once through residency the military is going to tell you where to live and odds are it won't be in the state you have the rural practice deal with.
  30. primadonna22274

    primadonna22274 Senior Member

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    This is kind of what I was thinking too. It makes sense that National Guard needs trump state needs if such a situation developed (considering the NG is state-oriented anyway). I'll still check into it. Thanks!

  31. del Sol DOHC

    del Sol DOHC

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    I was reading in the earlier pages of this thread that some of you are apprehensive about drilling for 6 years, then going IRR for the last 2 years. I have not seen it mentioned yet, so I wanted to make sure everyone was aware that the National Guard has its own inactive service. You can transfer to the Inactive National Guard instead of the IRR for those last two years. In the ING, you can only be mobilized with your National Guard unit, NOT active duty Army or Army Reserve. That way, you are still protected by guard deployment policies. :thumbup: You will not receive pay, points, or promotions in the Inactive National Guard, and you have to muster with your unit once per year.
  32. dogpython

    dogpython New Member

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    i know that in the ASR program you are nondeployable during your school and residency, but does anyone know how state mobilizations work, can you be mobilized during school or residency for the state (i.e. i am in texas and I think the arng gets mobilized almost every year for hurricanes and other natural disasters)? thanks!
  33. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    Your unit cannot touch you!
  34. tscottturner

    tscottturner Member

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    I am currently an M4 with 6 years AD time and 2 IRR as an engineer officer. I joined the guard in October of my M3 year as an MSC officer, and I decided not to take any education incentives from the guard - I only get my monthly drill pay. I was approached by an AMEDD recruiter earlier this week and was told that ASR had been extended to include residents - has anyone else heard this? basically, the gist of it was that as a resident I was still a "student of medicine" and thus still eligible to do the ASR program for 3 years of my residency. This was the first that I head heard of it, but the potential money for me (getting paid as an O-3 with 6 years in) in addition to my resident pay next year is just too much to pass up. Is there anyone out there who might be familiar with whether or not this is a possibility?
  35. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    I THINK I recall hearing something about it but heck I may have dreamed it. What I remember was you could either do ASR as a student or do ASR as a resident, not both. I think it would be in the NG's best interest to do this.

    EDIT: Update: I now firmly believe this to be a wishful thinking rumor.
    Last edited: 12.19.08
  36. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    It makes perfect sense from the viewpoint of the Guard.

    In fact, it's an even better deal for the Guard if it's applied to residents. For medical students, you could feasibly fulfill most or all of your military obligation by the time you graduate. If you don't give it to someone until their first day of residency, they have a few years of drill time guaranteed. Makes a lot of sense.
  37. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    WOW!!

    As a resident...no way!

    Everyone do some digging and find out...that would be insane! I start residency in July and would LOVE that.
  38. primadonna22274

    primadonna22274 Senior Member

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    wait wait wait...I'm confused. I thought that the AMEDD NG program only provided some help with living expenses, housing, insurance etc. while in school in return for service but I didn't think it covered tuition at all. Another post above mentions a state-by-state tuition benefit (is this the same program??) For a lot of reasons I'm not sold on HPSP but the NG thing sounds like a good fit for me. I looked at Iowa and it's a 50% tuition benefit...which would make it cheaper than my state school. So, can anybody answer, is this because one qualifies for GI bill benefits while in med school even as a new recruit, or is this only for prior service? *confused* :confused:
    thanks so much
    (disclaimer: not accepted just yet but hoping hoping hoping)
    Lisa
  39. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

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    Here's how it works: the ASR program pays you full-time as an officer for up to three years during medical school (it varies slightly based on locale and if you're married; for me, it would come to about $52K/year). No tuition assistance comes with the program.
    Completely OUTSIDE of the ASR program is the fact that all National Guard members (which you'd be as a part of the ASR program) get $4,500 in federal tuition assistance.

    In addition to that, some states will give tuition discounts or in some states (Illinois, I believe, is one) allow you to attend school tuition free. Some states (including my California) give no assistance. This is for all NG members, not ASR.
    All of the above is separate from GI benefits. If you are prior service and eligible to use the GI Bill, you can do so in addition to that.

    Hope this helps... Good luck with your application...
  40. Mr. Freeze

    Mr. Freeze Not right. (in the head)

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    I hate being the guy who says, "I don't have time to read 7 pgs of thread," but I don't have time to read...so,

    Prior service, MSIII, highly considering EM, really poor right now. ASR sounds incredible, and I tend to get REAL skeptical when that happens. What downsides are there? And I don't mean ugh, I've got to keep my hair short and wear BDUs. I think I'll manage.

    I poked around ARNG.com or whatever has the AMEDD info on it last night after doing the books on how poor I am and will continue to be, and thought about hitting up a recruiter but just don't want to get hounded quite yet.

    Thoughts?
  41. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    If you don't mind the thought of being deployed, about the only downside that's left is having a second obligation during school or residency and it's not that much work based on the pay. I kind of look at it like having a job that pays 50k while in med school, except my boss really doesn't expect that much out of me, and the benefits are amazing.

    If you want to talk to someone who won't hound you PM me and I'll get you in touch with a guy at NGB who is very knowledgeable about the program. I get the feeling that the response to this deal has been great enough that the recruiters aren't having time to hound on people. It's nothing like when an enlisted recruiter gets your contact info.
  42. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

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    Over the Christmas break I plan to update the beginning of this post to include some of the stuff that has been learned over the last 2 months.

    A question I thought of, if anyone knows the answer: I know the HPSP recruiters said the government won't pay OOS tuition. So if the federal tuition assistance kicks in on your tuition does that mean the school has to charge you instate rates?
  43. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

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    EMH,
    Ask him about residency and ASR would ya? Thanks
  44. primadonna22274

    primadonna22274 Senior Member

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    Location:
    The Sunny South but homesick for the Best Coast
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    Helps a bunch--thank you. Definitely would soften the blow of giving up my full-time PA income. Thanks!

  45. dogpython

    dogpython New Member

    Joined:
    08.01.06
    Messages:
    46
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    i am from texas and found this:

    Education Benefits:

    Texas National Guard Tuition Program: 100% tuition reimbursement up to 12 semester hours for a maximum of 10 semesters or 5 academic years. Additionally, 15 educational grants maximum $6,000 annually. Tuition may be used for undergraduate, graduate, vocational, or technical courses.
    Eligibility: Army National Guard service member must be enlisted, WO1-CW3, or 2LT-CPT.


    (Link to website for Texas)

    (Link to website for all states)

    Anyone know if we can use these benefits and "double dip?"
  46. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

    Joined:
    08.16.05
    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    Assuming that someone on ADSW is eligible for that state money then absolutely. Your ASR money isn't a scholarship of any sort. You are just on ADSW orders to be recruiter at your school. I think of it as the best paying job I've had to date, and best of all I can do it while in med school.
  47. EMH

    EMH M4 - Army NG

    Joined:
    08.16.05
    Messages:
    759
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    For those who were asking about the possibility of an ASR-ADSW deal for residents. It doesn't exist.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:(
  48. iatrosB

    iatrosB trying not to kill anyone

    Joined:
    06.09.04
    Messages:
    2,209
    Location:
    hiding from a code
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    +pissed+
  49. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator

    Joined:
    07.23.04
    Messages:
    10,289
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    SDN 10+ Year Member
    Well, that's a bummer. I wonder why they wouldn't do it? It seems like a no-brainer, at least financially...
  50. amindwalker

    amindwalker Forgetful omniscient

    Joined:
    02.19.07
    Messages:
    339
    Location:
    LECOM-Hoth, class of 2010, baby!
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 7+ Year Member
    I was just informed that I have been put forward for the Army Achievement Medal, thanks to all of you who mentioned me when I referred you to a certain recruiter.:banana: Thank you all :bow:!!

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