Army/Navy/Air Force Health Professions Scholarship Program

[GMO2003]

You sure you want to say that about some of the Army community hospitals?



This is only half true. It's true that it is less likely for you to be utilized as a GMO right out of medical school in the Army. BUT, you can certainly be used as a GMO once you finish residency, regardless of your specialty. I recently spoke to a current Army AD physician who is NOT in any field of primary care but was deployed as a GMO. A colleague of his has been deployed 3 times as a GMO. Again, neither of these physicians are in primary care (FP, Peds, IM or any IM subs, OB/GYN, EM)

I'll be sure to inform the 6 other army GMOs who came here right after internship me overseas that we don't and in fact are not supposed to exist

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Al4short]

You sound just like an . . . Army recruiter.

If you aren't, then post your creds. Are you a doctor in civilian practice? Have you practiced in the military? Are you even a doctor at all?

I am a former military doctor and now a civilian. I can tell you that your post is BS. My malpractice premiums are nothing like what you are posting. And the Army does use GMOs, they just deny it. The Army is the largest of the three services and always had more hospitals and training slots, even before the Air Force and Navy let their programs dry up. That isn't making much of a claim. And besides, with most retirees being sent through Tricare to civilian doctors, the case mix and practice exposure in Army training programs isn't what it used to be either.

So deny it if you are not a recruiter. Because you sure sound like one, right down to your lies and misinformation.

Yes I am a recruiter. And very proud of the fact that I don't lie. My integrity is very much intact. I'm sorry that somewhere down the line you were burned, but not all recruiters lie. Are you, or were you military? If so, which branch?

 

[USAFdoc]

Yes I am a recruiter. And very proud of the fact that I don't lie. My integrity is very much intact. I'm sorry that somewhere down the line you were burned, but not all recruiters lie. Are you, or were you military? If so, which branch?

1) "Not all recruiters are liers". I agree with that. The problems a recruiter will have in trying to recruit people to be docs in the military is that, in general, military medicine is in such bad shape, and in many ways, "anti-physician", that what "truthful" things can a recruiter say to entice someone to join?

you may not be a lier, but when I see the numerous military advertisements talking about how you can join the military to get away from the "red tape....focus more on patient care, etc" well, those are LIES in many instances.

If a recruiter wants to appeal to my patriotism, the fact that the military needs docs, the fact that they will pay your way through residency etc....well at least those are truthful reasons (although still not worth the price you pay as a doc in the military.

I certainly would not want the job of recruiting people to be military docs, and ethically, I would not do it ( I would not ask someone to do something I would not do again).

my 2 cents.

 

[resxn]

I applaud any recruiter who maintains their integrity.

Mine. Lied. Lied through his teeth with a smile on his face. I have a post a while back listing 11 lies he told me directly. If I ever see that lying excrement again, I'll unleash on the guy. Just a rat bast----. And after having talked to several people, many recruiters were not as bald-faced as mine, but were at least embellishers if not down-right experts in hyperbole.

I will never trust a recruiter again, of any sort, because of this guy. Maybe it's not fair, but I'm not about to get screwed by someone whose job is to get me to buy into what they're saying regardless of the price.

"oooooo, you're an aaaaaangry elf."

 

[Ex-44E3A]

To the recruiter who has just joined us:

Don't. Just don't. You're playing with fire here. Us ex-military docs don't need to be told how it "really is"... We already know. We all spent years living within the system, deploying with it, and attempting to survive (and help our patients survive) its depredations. If you really like a challenge, you can attempt some salesmanship on this board... but I don't think it's going to go well.

I don't envy you... and I say that honestly. You've been given the job of selling a poor product. The state of Military Medicine is not your fault necessarily, and I realize us ex-military docs are f***ing up your chi, but we have our integrity as well. It bears mentioning that none of us docs have any sort of financial or career interest in being here... We're merely ensuring the young med studs get the other side of the story.

I understand that what we're doing here makes your job more difficult... but I won't apologize for attempting to give these young professionals the real skinny. Dismissing us as "bitter HPSPs" (as one AF recruiter labeled me) will not silence us. In fact, I'll offer this warning in case you haven't been here for very long: denigrating the veteran docs on this board as "bitter" or "unpatriotic" is likely to earn you a dressing-down that would make a basic-training DI weep.

Otherwise, welcome aboard. We're an honest, straight-shooting, no-holds-barred crew, and if you want to know where the problems are in military medicine, ask... but be sure you're prepared to hear the answer.

 

[resxn]

To the recruiter who has just joined us:

Don't. Just don't. You're playing with fire here. Us ex-military docs don't need to be told how it "really is"... We already know. We all spent years living within the system, deploying with it, and attempting to survive (and help our patients survive) its depredations. If you really like a challenge, you can attempt some salesmanship on this board... but I don't think it's going to go well.

I don't envy you... and I say that honestly. You've been given the job of selling a poor product. The state of Military Medicine is not your fault necessarily, and I realize us ex-military docs are f***ing up your chi, but we have our integrity as well. It bears mentioning that none of us docs have any sort of financial or career interest in being here... We're merely ensuring the young med studs get the other side of the story.

I understand that what we're doing here makes your job more difficult... but I won't apologize for attempting to give these young professionals the real skinny. Dismissing us as "bitter HPSPs" (as one AF recruiter labeled me) will not silence us. In fact, I'll offer this warning in case you haven't been here for very long: denigrating the veteran docs on this board as "bitter" or "unpatriotic" is likely to earn you a dressing-down that would make a basic-training DI weep.

Otherwise, welcome aboard. We're an honest, straight-shooting, no-holds-barred crew, and if you want to know where the problems are in military medicine, ask... but be sure you're prepared to hear the answer.

ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto

 

[Galo]

Yes I am a recruiter. And very proud of the fact that I don't lie. My integrity is very much intact. I'm sorry that somewhere down the line you were burned, but not all recruiters lie. Are you, or were you military? If so, which branch?

If so, then you need to edit your post, as it is nothing but empty propaganda, and you will get called on it here over and over. You have a terrible job, and if you bother to read this forum you will realize that what you are selling is worse than some street drugs. There is no way in hell you cannot lie to get someone to sign that scholarship. Tell anyone the truth as multiple of us from all 3 branches have experienced it, and you will sign no one.

I'd have your boss take a look at this forum and see what they think. Though I'm sure they're already aware and furiously working to put a spin on it.

 

[delicatefade]

I'll be sure to inform the 6 other army GMOs who came here right after internship me overseas that we don't and in fact are not supposed to exist

I think you missed the whole point of my post to our recruiter friend.

Notice he had no response.

 

[i want out]

If so, then you need to edit your post, as it is nothing but empty propaganda, and you will get called on it here over and over. You have a terrible job, and if you bother to read this forum you will realize that what you are selling is worse than some street drugs. There is no way in hell you cannot lie to get someone to sign that scholarship. Tell anyone the truth as multiple of us from all 3 branches have experienced it, and you will sign no one.

I'd have your boss take a look at this forum and see what they think. Though I'm sure they're already aware and furiously working to put a spin on it.

Maybe, just Maybe, we have the single remaining truth telling recruiter posting on this board.

My opinion, is that even if s/he is a truth teller, they tell selective truth.
Much the way the rest of the military survives on telling you only the part that you want to hear, and omitting all the stuff thats actually useful for decision making.

When I was being recruited several years ago, I demanded three phone numbers and e-mails from my recruiter. I got the number of an attending, a resident, and a med student. As you can imagine, my recruiter was very selective in whose number he gave.

The real number I should have asked for, but didn't have the knowledge to know that I needed, was that of a GMO who was going on back to back deployments and having CO's risk their life on a regular basis.

i want out

 

[MeganRose]

I currently have an HPSP scholarship for next year. It's a 4 year scholarship (although there is also a three year scholarship). The time committment after the med school is 4 years. My scholarship is with the airforce, so all I can tell you is what their commitment (and benefits) are. You can be deployed overseas (like to iraq or someplace crazy like that) for 45 days for each 18 months that you are on the scholarship. The rest of the time, you will be on a base in the U.S./Western Europe etc. This means that by the time I finish med school I could be sent to iraq for about 4 months...
Now for the money aspect....you will make less money in the military than you would if you were out in the real world once you finish medical school. However, you must realize that you will have no debt to pay on, whereas other people will be forking over around $10,000-$20,000 a year to their student loan companies. Plus, you did earn around $80,000 while you were in medical school (which obviously other people didn't). Given these considerations I'm fairly certain that I'm going to break even, and possibly be a little bit ahead of everyone else. If however you choose to do a millitary residency instead of a civilian residency, you are going to make about double the money (around $65k a year instead of $30k). This is because your rank will be raised to after med school (and therefore your pay goes up a LOT). Also, because you are military, you get a lot of benefits-health insurance, dental insurance, reduced cost food (buy on base), reduced cost housing (live on base)...etc, etc, so by the time everything is said and done, you are going to be WAY ahead (in terms of money) of all of the people that went the traditional route

There is so much wrong with your information, I don't even know where to begin. I feel so sorry for you. I felt misled in terms of the residency selection opportunites but you have a very poor understanding of even the most basic details of the program. I wish your recruiter wasn't so good at his job.
-There is no such thing as a 4year committment, every contract is an 8y contract. Beyond the trap of doing a GMO tour and reapplying via the military match (and therefore accruing an extra year of comittment) even if you do owe just 4y of AD time, there are still 4y of IRR time to contend with. I haven't heard of any medical people being call up from IRR but if the non-medical military is any indication, the likelihood of future IRR activations is high. Simply put, don't be surprised if you end if paying back well over your "4 year" committment.
-Deployments: You can not be deployed as a student, much less overseas. You can and will be deployed after residency. Currently, the AF advertises 4mth guarenteed deployments in any 18mth period. However, as a prior service Army MP, I can tell you that the military doesn't have to honor this. As of 2003, the Army promised 12mth deployments-- ask my boyfriend how much he enjoyed his 15 month deployment. Its impossible to see what the future holds but dont be surprised if the duration and freq of deployments is increased by the time you're on AD.
-Salary during medical school: I think the 80k is a bit of an exageration as I only made 17k on this year's tax return and I have a part time research job. At any rate, you will not be living high on the hog. If you have children/spouse you'll likely be taking out money just like your classmates.
-Residency salary: Once again, your recruiter has exagerated the numbers, the typical O-3 <2 will be making~58k, the worse residency pay I have seen is 39k-- far from the 35k spread your recruiter is advertising. And this is *only* if you do a military residency.
-Benefits: As a former-dependent, I can tell you that back in the day, the Comissary and BX were a benefit. There is very little (with the possible exception of perfume and electronics) that I can't get at Walmart, Target, HEB/Kroger's/Meier's, etc.for cheaper.

Looking at things very objectively, for the average person, doing HPSP will put you behind your peers financially. However, making good decisions during med school and residency can put you in good steads. Receiving HPSP allowed me to qualify for a mortgage on a condo bc it counted as having an income. I also plan on continuing to invest the "extra" money that I will receive if I do a military residency. But don't fool yourself-- HPSP is not a financial windfall and could never outpace the possible earnings in civilian sector. PM if you have any questions.

 

[MeganRose]

I'm no financial guru, but the main advantage HPSP gives you is time. You can start investing earlier and you don't incur a lot of debt early on. This still doesn't cut it for the high paid specialties, but the majority of physicians won't be making much over 200K in the end. There are huge negative intangibles that can be involved with joining the military. I agree, that if you strictly add up the numbers over time, military doctors come out way behind civilian doctors, especially in the medecal specialties. In any event, any financial gain you get from smart long term investing is offset by being miserable for a period of time (about 8 years).

Well said.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

[

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Something else to consider, when comparing civilian residencies to military.

Military residents are not permitted to moonlight, even in their own specialty.

That may not seem like a big deal, but in emergency medicine, there is no experiential substitute for actually running your own department. A bunch of us civilian residents moonlit like fiends during our training, and more than doubled our incomes in the process. Most of us easily exceeded the incomes of our military colleagues.

We also gained extremely valuable experience (one friend of mine ended up joining the group he'd been moonlighting for, and they promptly credited all of his moonlighting hours toward his partnership track) in running/managing an entire emergency department. This was confirmed by some of our senior staff when we joined the AF; multiple people remarked on how much more quickly the newly-accessioned civilian-trained staff were able to hit the ground running compared to their military residency counterparts.

We were not smarter or anything like that... just more experienced, and I credit the difference to the moonlighting we did.

 

[Al4short]

I really would like to know the "bad" stuff. If the Docs who've been there don't say anything to the medical recruiters out here, how are we supposed to know. I don't sugar coat anything with the people I'm talking to about the Scholarship. I think everyone has the right to make an educated dicision, based on the truth. If the Army isn't for them, then I don't want them in the Army. I don't ever want to find myself lying on a gourney, looking up at someone that's P Od at me because I lied to them. I have 16 years in the Military, 8 Air Force and 8 Army. I have 18 years as a Nurse. I've worked with Civilians Docs and Military Docs and both systems of health care could use improvement.

 

[delicatefade]

I don't ever want to find myself lying on a gourney, looking up at someone that's P Od at me because I lied to them.

You might want to repeat this to some of your fellow recruiters...

 

[Al4short]

You might want to repeat this to some of your fellow recruiters...

So help me out, here. Tell me the inside scoop on Military Medicine, from a Doc's perspective. I need specifics, not just things like "it sucks". That doesn't work for me.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

So help me out, here. Tell me the inside scoop on Military Medicine, from a Doc's perspective. I need specifics, not just things like "it sucks". That doesn't work for me.

Quit trolling.

 

[turkish]

Why? Are you going to fix the problems?

Or will you analyze our complaints and find ways to spin new lies around them to future applicants?

You would do best to leave, anything false you spew on here will be exposed by the multitude of experienced military physicians.

 

[Al4short]

Why? Are you going to fix the problems?

Or will you analyze our complaints and find ways to spin new lies around them to future applicants?

You would do best to leave, anything false you spew on here will be exposed by the multitude of experienced military physicians.

I'm not "trolling", or trying to find ways to spin the truth. The reason I joined this sight is to get the truth from the people who've been there. I realize that you don't beleive that, but how about giving me the benefit of the doubt. You see "recruiter" and assume "shady". That's not who I am!
So tell me the truth, worts and all. If all recruiters ever hear is "life is Rosey", how can we tell the truth to applicants.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I'm not "trolling", or trying to find ways to spin the truth. The reason I joined this sight is to get the truth from the people who've been there. I realize that you don't beleive that, but how about giving me the benefit of the doubt. You see "recruiter" and assume "shady". That's not who I am!
So tell me the truth, worts and all. If all recruiters ever hear is "life is Rosey", how can we tell the truth to applicants.

Don't be so lazy. Why don't you read some of the posts that are already here that provide exactly the answers you are looking for instead of expecting someone to re-post everything they have already written. It is your question, you do the research.

And "worts[sic]and all" is pretty much what is available if you use the search function. BTW, you must be delusional to think that anyone here buys that nonsense that anyone is saying that everything is rosy. That is something that recruiters say.

And why do you think it is in the interests of anyone posting here to be helping recruiters anyway?

 

[resxn]

click on my name and read my post on all the lies my recruiter told me. Click on my name and read the post labelled 10 reasons I hate my job. Click on my name and read any post for my opinion. That or I can just cut and paste 30 pages worth of material here for you.

Oh wait, that would be regurgitating completed work, sort of the AF way of doing things, and since I'm pretty much anti-establishment (at least military medical establishment) you'll have to click.

 

[Galo]

Don't be so lazy. Why don't you read some of the posts that are already here that provide exactly the answers you are looking for instead of expecting someone to re-post everything they have already written. It is your question, you do the research.

And "worts[sic]and all" is pretty much what is available if you use the search function. BTW, you must be delusional to think that anyone here buys that nonsense that anyone is saying that everything is rosy. That is something that recruiters say.

And why do you think it is in the interests of anyone posting here to be helping recruiters anyway?

Well said!!

All the information the recruiter is asking for is here already. I'm quite sure he's already read some of it, and just can't believe it.

 

[delicatefade]

Agreed. If you spend some time reading previous threads, especially from 2004 onward, you will have more than enough material to answer your questions.

Here's a big problem. A general surgeon I know of in the Army is stationed at a small Army community hospital. This surgeon's OR schedule is full of......colonoscopies(which are usually done by a gastroenterologist, but this hospital has almost no specialty services outside of general internal medicine) and almost nothing else. Do you think that is a good use of this person's skills as a surgeon???? Would YOU want this surgeon operating on you in Iraq after his/her skills have gone down the toilet for 2-3 years by being stationed at an Army hospital with pathetic surgical acuity and volume??? Didn't think so.

Also, this surgeon is not allowed to moonlight. That's kind of like sending a fighter pilot through training, then grounding them for a few years. No flying. Then sending them to a war zone and expecting them to perform at 100%.

That is one of many problems with military medicine. I realize most recruiters don't know about some of this stuff, but these are the kinds of things that would most certainly dissuade just about any applicant to HPSP. I know if my recruiter had told me about them I would not have signed.

 

[turkish]

It's absurd to think that this person sincerely wants to paint an balanced picture for applicants. As someone else stated before, he has a direct financial interest in seeing people sign up! And we are supposed to believe he is interested in our qualms for the honesty's sake?

 

[Galo]

Agreed. If you spend some time reading previous threads, especially from 2004 onward, you will have more than enough material to answer your questions.

Here's a big problem. A general surgeon I know of in the Army is stationed at a small Army community hospital. This surgeon's OR schedule is full of......colonoscopies(which are usually done by a gastroenterologist, but this hospital has almost no specialty services outside of general internal medicine) and almost nothing else. Do you think that is a good use of this person's skills as a surgeon???? Would YOU want this surgeon operating on you in Iraq after his/her skills have gone down the toilet for 2-3 years by being stationed at an Army hospital with pathetic surgical acuity and volume??? Didn't think so.

Also, this surgeon is not allowed to moonlight. That's kind of like sending a fighter pilot through training, then grounding them for a few years. No flying. Then sending them to a war zone and expecting them to perform at 100%.

That is one of many problems with military medicine. I realize most recruiters don't know about some of this stuff, but these are the kinds of things that would most certainly dissuade just about any applicant to HPSP. I know if my recruiter had told me about them I would not have signed.

Unfortunately this is a very good description of the majority of surgeons in the military. I can certainly speak from my experience in the AF, and mitchconnie, flitesurgin have said the same thing.

What is really amazing is that this is not common knowledge. Imagine if there would be an outcry if this was suddenly common knowledge to the American People??

No way a recruiter can tell people this, and have anyone with any potential sign up.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Here's a big problem. A general surgeon I know of in the Army is stationed at a small Army community hospital. This surgeon's OR schedule is full of......colonoscopies

Classic... but it gets worse than that. You should see what happens on some deployments. If you're at Balad or the CSH in Baghdad, don't worry... you'll get plenty of surgical experience. However, at some locations, you'll be lucky to operate once or twice in 3-4 months.

I knew one surgeon who got so bored of not operating, that he went around to everywhere soldiers/airmen were recreating, and started taking moles and nevi off of people. The usual pitch was to walk up to a guy, remark on how terrible that mole on his back looks, and tell him to come see you in the medical clinic if he wants it taken off.

He racked up dozens of "surgeries" this way... I guess you do what you have to do to keep those skills up.

 

[AgaveCat]

I currently have an HPSP scholarship for next year. It's a 4 year scholarship (although there is also a three year scholarship). The time committment after the med school is 4 years. My scholarship is with the airforce, so all I can tell you is what their commitment (and benefits) are. You can be deployed overseas (like to iraq or someplace crazy like that) for 45 days for each 18 months that you are on the scholarship. The rest of the time, you will be on a base in the U.S./Western Europe etc. This means that by the time I finish med school I could be sent to iraq for about 4 months...not too bad if you ask me. While in school I get about $1300 a month. But, during the summers you are sent to commissioned officers training (not at all like your usual basic training) for 30 days. During this time you are paid full pay for whatever your rank is (usually 2nd lieutenant). This means that you will probably make about $20,000 a year while in school.

Now for the money aspect....you will make less money in the military than you would if you were out in the real world once you finish medical school. However, you must realize that you will have no debt to pay on, whereas other people will be forking over around $10,000-$20,000 a year to their student loan companies. Plus, you did earn around $80,000 while you were in medical school (which obviously other people didn't). Given these considerations I'm fairly certain that I'm going to break even, and possibly be a little bit ahead of everyone else. If however you choose to do a millitary residency instead of a civilian residency, you are going to make about double the money (around $65k a year instead of $30k). This is because your rank will be raised to after med school (and therefore your pay goes up a LOT). Also, because you are military, you get a lot of benefits-health insurance, dental insurance, reduced cost food (buy on base), reduced cost housing (live on base)...etc, etc, so by the time everything is said and done, you are going to be WAY ahead (in terms of money) of all of the people that went the traditional route

Where are you now and how did your experience turn out?

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

Nice. 9 year old necro bump asking a poster who hasn't posted for 9 years on his experiences.