ARNP, PhD..."call me Doctor"

[heyjack70]

I'm sure this only bother insecure physicians. PhD in Psychology and ARNP but only sees patients for medications and wants to be called Dr. ________.

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[WingedOx]

If she was a clinical PhD, he/she'd already be called "doctor".

 

[Doctor Bagel]

My sister is a psychiatric NP and has a Ph.D. in English. How would you feel if she asked people to call her doctor? She doesn't, btw, but I guess she could. It would be obnoxious in a clinical context. I imagine the person you're talking about assumes he/she is using his/her psychology expertise in treating patients and thus is allowed to use the doctor title. Kind of like how we tell ourselves we use our psychodynamic skills in 15 minute med management checks -- needing the rolling eyes icon here.

 

[nitemagi]

I respect anyone with a doctorate, but in hospitals it obfuscates roles for patients who don't know the difference. That's the only location in which I have a problem with it.

 

[F0nzie]

Your title is setting dependent. If I were a physicist that worked at GameStop I wouldn't expect anybody to call me Doctor. Although that would be cool. I could be doctor of games.

 

[nitemagi]

Your title is setting dependent. If I were a physicist that worked at GameStop I wouldn't expect anybody to call me Doctor. Although that would be cool. I could be doctor of games.

Sounds like a GoT title.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I respect anyone with a doctorate, but in hospitals it obfuscates roles for patients who don't know the difference. That's the only location in which I have a problem with it.

I respect anyone with a doctorate in the sense of an MD/DO, DMD/DDS, Ph.D. in a legitimate academic discipline. The problem is that, increasingly, lower-on-the-totem-pole vocations that have historically not been considered "professions," like nursing and physical therapy, have begun creating 3-year clinical "doctoral" degrees like DNP and DPT. If you respect "anyone with a doctorate," what are you going to say when all these DNPs start demanding to be called "doctor?"

 

[nitemagi]

I respect anyone with a doctorate in the sense of an MD/DO, DMD/DDS, Ph.D. in a legitimate academic discipline. The problem is that, increasingly, lower-on-the-totem-pole vocations that have historically not been considered "professions," like nursing and physical therapy, have begun creating 3-year clinical "doctoral" degrees like DNP and DPT. If you respect "anyone with a doctorate," what are you going to say when all these DNPs start demanding to be called "doctor?"

That's a fair point. There needs to be a legitimate increase in rigorousness and value to warrant the doctorate, rather than just a bit more study.

Regardless, I think only MD/DOs should be called doctor in hospitals. My wife has a PhD in the humanities, and I call her doctor all the time.

 

[touchpause13]

I think it's bull and confusing for patients.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am called doctor by everyone here at the hospital, but that is clearly because of my role as a clinical psychologist. Nobody expects me to jump into surgery or trauma, but when someone wants to kill themselves, they call me. Occasionally I have to clarify that I am not a psychiatrist, but usually not too much of an issue. If I went and got a nurse practitioner license so I could write scripts and that is what I did, then it would be a huge setup for misrepresentation and blurs roles too much. I don't think I would ever want to do that. Our hospital would probably not hire this person anyway for precisely that reason. We have a social worker to do case management, psychologists to do assessments and psychotherapy, and a PMHNP to prescribe and monitor psychiatric meds, and my buddy the ortho cracks bones all day.

 

[PsyDr]

This is why the title should be used instead of the honorific.

Worked for commonwealth surgeons for quite some time....

 

[milesed]

We have a local lady with only ARNP who asks her patients to call her Dr. __. It does bother me as I feel she is terribly misrepresenting her training.

If she had a PhD, I'd call her Dr.

 

[smalltownpsych]

We have a local lady with only ARNP who asks her patients to call her Dr. __. It does bother me as I feel she is terribly misrepresenting her training.

If she had a PhD, I'd call her Dr.

That is a total misrepresentation since she is not a doctor in any way, but if her PhD is not in psychiatric medicine, wouldn't that still be misleading?

 

[milesed]

only somewhat^. My thought is that if you've earned a PhD, you've earned the Dr. title even if it isn't medical.

 

[psych md jd]

Role confusion is not a good thing. People sometimes address me as a forensic psychologist. I then go to great pains to clarify: the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist is about $150,000 a year.

But seriously, although you may have earned the right to be called "doctor," it is the patient's subjective belief as to what you are that matters. If you do not make it explicitly clear as to your role (where there may be confusion) you may need to call the guy to the left.

On day 1 of forensic fellowship you are told to tell the examinee: "I am not your doctor. I was sent by the court to examine you. I will not be treating you...

Also, as a bona fide juris doctor and physician do you call me Doctor Doctor? [Can't you see I'm burning, burning?]

 

[touchpause13]

only somewhat^. My thought is that if you've earned a PhD, you've earned the Dr. title even if it isn't medical.

There's a difference between earning it and when it's an appropriate usage. In a hospital doctor means one thing, in a humanities department it means another.

For example my mom is an PhD and a city councilwoman. She doesn't ask to be called Dr. When she's on the council because that's stupid and douchey. In a hospital setting I think it's not only stupid and douchey, it's confusing to patients. So uber douchey.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

OK, reverse rant -- what about patients who don't call you doctor even when you introduce yourself as such? Egotistical to correct them? I'm jealous of all these non-doctors getting people to call them doctor when lots of us doctors (namely women) have to work so hard to get people to use that title.

 

[birchswing]

OK, reverse rant -- what about patients who don't call you doctor even when you introduce yourself as such? Egotistical to correct them? I'm jealous of all these non-doctors getting people to call them doctor when lots of us doctors (namely women) have to work so hard to get people to use that title.

I think it's partially geographical. Move to Germany and you'll have more titles than you can shake a stick at.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I think it's partially geographical. Move to Germany and you'll have more titles than you can shake a stick at.

I don't think it's geographical when it doesn't happen to men. Especially for patients who call me "Miss Last Name."

 

[Ceke2002]

OK, reverse rant -- what about patients who don't call you doctor even when you introduce yourself as such? Egotistical to correct them? I'm jealous of all these non-doctors getting people to call them doctor when lots of us doctors (namely women) have to work so hard to get people to use that title.

Far as I'm concerned you wouldn't not call a Priest, 'Father' so you don't not call a Doctor 'Doctor'. You earned that title, you have a right to be addressed correctly by it.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't think it's geographical when it doesn't happen to men. Especially for patients who call me "Miss Last Name."

I agree. It is sexism plain and simple and I have seen it play out before. As a man, people use my title more than they do with my colleagues. Age also plays a role. One of my clinical supervisors would get called by her first name while the staff would call me doctor and I was still just a student and would have to correct them. It did help me begin to develop some confidence in my professional role, but it did make me wonder how that extra barrier affected her. I really believe that it was mainly because she was young and attractive.

 

[deleted480308]

Far as I'm concerned you wouldn't not call a Priest, 'Father' so you don't not call a Doctor 'Doctor'. You earned that title, you have a right to be addressed correctly by it.

Slightly related....a pastor at my church got a doctorate some psychology field and began to request that everyone call him Dr. instead of pastor. We also had janitor that had been ordained and was about to go out on the mission field. The second gentleman was a lot less formal about titles and never requested any....until...(names changed for anonymity)

janitor (in passing): having a good day?
pastor: sure am gary, how bout you?
janitor: pretty good bob, see you later...
pastor: um, actually I prefer doctor bob, gary
janitor: then in that case I prefer Rev. gary, bob (winks and laughs as he walks away)

both are very nice guys, but people get sensitive about titles

 

[touchpause13]

OK, reverse rant -- what about patients who don't call you doctor even when you introduce yourself as such? Egotistical to correct them? I'm jealous of all these non-doctors getting people to call them doctor when lots of us doctors (namely women) have to work so hard to get people to use that title.

I can see that being annoying. I get annoyed when people call me Mrs. That's my mother in law's name. I think I'd rather have you refer to me as "hey bitch" than Mrs.

 

[Armadillos]

Meh, I don't get too worked up about this stuff, I'll call anyone by whatever they want to be called.

 

[deleted480308]

I can see that being annoying. I get annoyed when people call me Mrs. That's my mother in law's name. I think I'd rather have you refer to me as "hey bitch" than Mrs.

It might not make it less annoying but depending on the person, it could be them expressing respect in their cultural way. The area of the south my mother is from teaches everyone to address all women of adult age as "Mrs. lastname" until they tell you to address them as first name, then you go to "mrs. firstname". Neither should be and excuse to deny someone their professional title though

 

[touchpause13]

It might not make it less annoying but depending on the person, it could be them expressing respect in their cultural way. The area of the south my mother is from teaches everyone to address all women of adult age as "Mrs. lastname" until they tell you to address them as first name, then you go to "mrs. firstname". Neither should be and excuse to deny someone their professional title though

I don't have a problem with it the first time, but if you keep calling me that after I say I don't like it... that's rude IMO.

 

[Ceke2002]

Slightly related....a pastor at my church got a doctorate some psychology field and began to request that everyone call him Dr. instead of pastor. We also had janitor that had been ordained and was about to go out on the mission field. The second gentleman was a lot less formal about titles and never requested any....until...(names changed for anonymity)

janitor (in passing): having a good day?
pastor: sure am gary, how bout you?
janitor: pretty good bob, see you later...
pastor: um, actually I prefer doctor bob, gary
janitor: then in that case I prefer Rev. gary, bob (winks and laughs as he walks away)

both are very nice guys, but people get sensitive about titles

Reminds me of a conversation I had when I was working the checkout line at local supermarket in my late teens/early 20's.

*Customer appears wearing black clerical shirt, pants, and collar*

Me: Good morning, Father.
Customer: *smiling politely* Actually I'm a Reverend, but thank you, and good morning to you too.
Me: Oh, I'm dreadfully sorry, Reverend, I saw the collar and assumed...
Customer: It's perfectly alright my dear. You can just call me Frank (not his real name) if you like.
Me: Okay Reverend Frank. How has your Morning been so far?
Customer: Visiting some local parishioners, just thought I might pop in and get a few items on the way. And please, just call me Frank.
Me: Okay, Frank, Reverend Frank it is then. (I am completely unable to not address a Reverend by their correct title once I know it)
Customer: No, really please don't feel obliged...okay, how much does that come to? *still smiling politely, gives up trying to correct me on not feeling obligated to use his title*
Me: (gives customer the tally) Goodbye Reverend, have a pleasant rest of the day.
Customer: Thank you, my child.

I have a feeling the 'my child' part may have been a slight case of sarcasm at this point.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I can see that being annoying. I get annoyed when people call me Mrs. That's my mother in law's name. I think I'd rather have you refer to me as "hey bitch" than Mrs.

I hate being called Mrs. Hate it! I'm married but didn't change my name, so it's not even correct (I don't think). But yes, I do remember growing up in a close to the south place, and we called all the adult women Mrs. I still think it's a bit odd when kids call their parents' friends by their first names -- that was not how we did it. Interestingly, we called all the adults Mr. and Mrs. even thought lots of them had Ph.D.s (grew up in a college town). So if a kid calls me Miss or Mrs., I guess I'm OK with it. An adult, though, is a whole other thing.

 

[deleted343839]

OK, reverse rant -- what about patients who don't call you doctor even when you introduce yourself as such? Egotistical to correct them? I'm jealous of all these non-doctors getting people to call them doctor when lots of us doctors (namely women) have to work so hard to get people to use that title.

I'm a clinical psychologist in an academic medical center. In my department, all of the faculty - the physicians, the Ph.D. bench scientists, and I - are all called "Doctor" and this is not controversial.

I have met master's level counselors and nurse practitioners who get non-clinical doctoral degrees and they tend to be the most obnoxious about presenting themselves as "Doctor," sometimes with an alphabet soup after their name for good measure.

The vast majority of patients call me Doctor, a few use Ms. with apparently benign intentions, and on rare occasions someone will use my first name (usually having been socialized by a previous therapist with a very informal style). I answer to them all, as long as the patient understands who I am, my role, and why they are seeing me. If someone asks what they should call me I tell them "here most people call me Dr. ..."

When I need validation, I can turn to my friends, family members, and colleagues. There are people who have done much harder work and far more amazing things than I who don't have special titles (though I think someone should come up with a secular counterpart to "Saint" for those folks).

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think that the title thing depends on who it is and the context. If they are a coworker in a medical setting, then they should damn well call you doctor in front of patients or others. If it's a patient, then what they choose to call me is part of what I am assessing. When a patient recently kept referring to me as their therapist almost as though they were referring to someone else, I interpreted that as a fear of getting too close to me/too vulnerable. Sometimes the excessive use of the title can be driven by a need to idealize, too. At other times, it is very culturally determined, older people tend to use the title and be very formal, vets tend to call me "doc", kids are just glad that I don't give them shots!

 

[F0nzie]

Meh, I don't get too worked up about this stuff, I'll call anyone by whatever they want to be called.

 

[nitemagi]

Let's be honest about the multiple issues going on here.
1. Mixing up roles/expectations to patients. -- IMO a legitimate concern in hospitals.
It stems from:
2. Respect for the work done to earn a degree. We all worked hard to get here, and we want that respected with the use of the title.
Just be mindful if you're compensating with the use of it.
3. Non-MD/DOs use it to try to earn respect in the medical community. In line with #2, these colleagues want respect as well, and so they're grabbing for titles (sometimes) to try get a step up in the hierarchy. Medicine still has one, and traditionally MDs were at the top of it. I totally understand this. But as in #2, many are using it to compensate for their own reasons.

What is particularly an issue is when #3 causes #1. Because I think it can be dangerous.

I sometimes let patients call me by my first name. If they respect and understand my role, then what's the difference?

 

[Ceke2002]

I sometimes let patients call me by my first name. If they respect and understand my role, then what's the difference?

I actually do agree with this. If a patient isn't just referring to a Doctor by their first name out of a sense of disrespect, or playing some sort of game of one upmanship, and they do understand and respect the role of a Doctor, then if the Doctor is okay with it using first names to address them shouldn't be a problem. Having said that, due to my upbringing in an older generational household, I find it almost impossible to address a Doctor as anything but 'Doctor', even when I know it's okay to do otherwise.

 

[psych md jd]

People call me Forrest Gump. 'Cuz I have shares in that fruit company and I'm a gozillionaire.

Although, I prefer Rainman.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Hmm, I'm not really sure it's compensating to expect to be called the title that you deserve/earned/is appropriate in a clinical setting. I actually don't correct people, but it still bugs me, especially when people call me Miss, Ms. or Mrs.. First name I get because people are used to calling their doctors, and especially therapists, by their first name. Calling me Miss shows that you're attempting to be formal and yet making entirely wrong assumptions (that I'm not a doctor, which I'm pretty sure is an assumption based almost entirely on my gender).

 

[Ceke2002]

Hmm, I'm not really sure it's compensating to expect to be called the title that you deserve/earned/is appropriate in a clinical setting. I actually don't correct people, but it still bugs me, especially when people call me Miss, Ms. or Mrs.. First name I get because people are used to calling their doctors, and especially therapists, by their first name. Calling me Miss shows that you're attempting to be formal and yet making entirely wrong assumptions (that I'm not a doctor, which I'm pretty sure is an assumption based almost entirely on my gender).

In a clinical setting, unless someone is walking around with a badge on their shirt that states their role/title, I tend to defer to the rule of thumb that everyone is assumed to be a Doctor, and should be addressed as such, until I'm told otherwise. If I was seeing a new clinic worker, and they were to introduce themselves by their first name, my first response would be to say something like 'Hello Doctor, I'm sorry I didn't catch your last name?' Then they can either say 'It's Doctor *last name*, or 'Oh no, it's okay I'm one of the social workers here just call me *first name*.

As far as I'm concerned Doctors are always addressed as Doctor (and Nurses are always addressed as Nurse or Sister if they prefer that title). I actually find it disconcerting if a Doctor introduces themselves in a clinical situation as "Hi, my name's *first name*, I'm one of the Doctors here". Argh, no, stop it!

 

[nitemagi]

Hmm, I'm not really sure it's compensating to expect to be called the title that you deserve/earned/is appropriate in a clinical setting. I actually don't correct people, but it still bugs me, especially when people call me Miss, Ms. or Mrs.. First name I get because people are used to calling their doctors, and especially therapists, by their first name. Calling me Miss shows that you're attempting to be formal and yet making entirely wrong assumptions (that I'm not a doctor, which I'm pretty sure is an assumption based almost entirely on my gender).

Exactly. You want respect for the work you've done to get where you are.
The compensation happens when people use it to try to one-up someone else, or make up for their own lack of confidence. It comes out with their overuse of it.

 

[heyjack70]

I'm quite shallow but what bothers me is it's a psychologist who could be called doctor if doing therapy or psych testing. But in the setting of med management they are using the ARNP and they do no therapy.

 

[michaelrack]

 

[clausewitz2]

Perspective from former non-clinical academic: non-clinical academics who insist on being called doctor outside of a classroom or insist on adding "PhD" after their name in routine communications very clearly don't spend much time around other non-clinical academics. When you are in a workplace where everyone is assumed to have PhD or working on one, using it all the time just makes you sound like an incredible prat.

 

[notdeadyet]

It is probably top of mind because of the announcement from SCOTUS this morning, but whenever I hear physicians getting miffed about non-MDs being called "doctor," I can't help but draw parallels to the married straights who get wound up at the idea of gays marrying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nasrudin]

It might not make it less annoying but depending on the person, it could be them expressing respect in their cultural way. The area of the south my mother is from teaches everyone to address all women of adult age as "Mrs. lastname" until they tell you to address them as first name, then you go to "mrs. firstname". Neither should be and excuse to deny someone their professional title though

Proper southern ettiquette, is to my eternal surprise, not universally understood. I say "yes ma'am" or "no ma'am" and always "Ms. SuchinSuch," phonetically Miz not "Mrs" phonetically Missuss because there is the slight flirtatious implication of eligibility and youth in the intentional misreading of their age and marriage status but also because it's rude to assume marriage and surname taken without prior knowledge or proper introduction.

Sadly this artful guise is considered a direct insult beacause ma'am is interpreted as simply age.

The downside of not enough time on your hands in Northeastern cities leading to a guileless abruptness that I have never taken on in full, thank the baby Jesus.

I don't know what to do with doctor title. Some people insist on using it even when I introduce myself by first name and call them by their's intending to be more familiar as workmates. So? Alright then doctor. I use it with patients because I've figured out over familiarity is a problem sometimes. Otherwise I wouldn't use it.

I don't like calling an NP doctor but will begrudgingly if they make a point of it. Phd's, like us, have earned it, and I use it reflexively.

Although I once knew an English professor who insisted on me calling them doctor in the community. Which is...well ...just like insisting people call you schmuck, but without the opportunity for insight.

 

[erg923]

Proper southern ettiquette, is to my eternal surprise, not universally understood. I say "yes ma'am" or "no ma'am" and always "Ms. SuchinSuch," phonetically Miz not "Mrs" phonetically Missuss because there is the slight flirtatious implication of eligibility and youth in the intentional misreading of their age and marriage status but also beacause it's rude to assume marriage and surname assumed without prior knowledge.

This is how I was raised. And it is what I teach my children as well.

I introduce myself as Dr. So and so. I am a psychologist, and I run the primary care mental health service here....etc. I generally don't care what they call me after that. Its on them, not me.

 

[erg923]

Also makes me think of:

 

[PsyDr]

I then go to great pains to clarify: the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist is about $150,000 a year.

the high on neuropsych is 880k.

 

[Ceke2002]

Proper southern ettiquette, is to my eternal surprise, not universally understood. I say "yes ma'am" or "no ma'am" and always "Ms. SuchinSuch," phonetically Miz not "Mrs" phonetically Missuss because there is the slight flirtatious implication of eligibility and youth in the intentional misreading of their age and marriage status but also beacause it's rude to assume marriage and surname assumed without prior knowledge.

Not just southern etiquette, I think there's a rather sad decline in even the simplest of manners across a large portion of the (English influenced) world - I say 'English influenced' to delineate between English style customs of etiquette and other cultures who may have their own customs of correct conduct, which one should endeavour to always learn if one is going to be entering into a culturally different situation, but I digress. I remember years ago accidentally bumping into an elderly gentleman and saying 'excuse me, sir', and having him stop in amazement and offer me a thank you, because no one had said that to him in such a long time. I personally found it utterly appalling to think that such a basic courtesy had become so rare, that it required an acknowledgment with gratitude when it was used.

The way I was raised, you said 'please' and 'thank you'; if someone cooked you a meal or gave you lodgings for the night you thanked them for their hospitality; you pardoned yourself after passing wind or gas; you said 'excuse me' if you accidentally bumped into someone, or if you needed to move around in them in a crowded situation; you addressed your elders, or those in Military or Police uniforms as Sir or Ma'am; Judges were addressed as 'Your Honour', Priests were 'Father', Reverends were 'Reverend', Doctors were 'Doctor', etc etc; you held doors open for people; you stepped to one side to let other people enter ahead of you; you stood for the national anthem, you bowed your head when a minute's silence was being held, you did not dare salute the flag or any military personnel or monuments as that was a right reserved only for those in the military, and so on, and so forth.

And it's not just manners that some people seem to lack, but the ability to show basic respect when a situation calls for respect to be given. This year's ANZAC Day Dawn Service some yahoo turned up draped in the Australian Flag, like hello, this is a funeral service for the fallen, not a 'look at me everyone' chance for you to show off. The first time I marched in the ANZAC Day Procession, as part of the relatives section, we had idiots who decided it was perfectly alright to meander across the road in front of the oncoming marchers. Um yeah, okay, no worries, this is actually a funeral procession, but feel free to just cut in front of us - respect mofo's, have you ever heard of it?! Ugh, SMDH!

 

[sunlioness]

Sounds like a GoT title.

I was thinking Hunger Games. May the odds be ever in your favor!

I'm really not terribly formal, but it galls me when patients jump to my first name. It happens not infrequently and I find it disrespectful. Some ask and I tell them I prefer "Dr. Last Initial". I don't prefer it actually, but my last name is long, ethnic, and freaks people out. So I accept it. I just don't like jumping to my first name without asking.

I try to get the nurses to call me by my first name. They won't. I accept that too. I think not doing so is pretty ingrained in their training.

 

[doctorpilgrim]

The word doctor has a specific meaning with context and setting. It has established and almost universally accepted meaning, so when used in different setting; what is the intent and what are the moral and ethical obligations of the person using it?
Can anybody then start using any desirable title by finding a work around?
State Medical boards regulate physicians,to avoid confusion and protect patients.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Role confusion is not a good thing. People sometimes address me as a forensic psychologist. I then go to great pains to clarify: the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist is about $150,000 a year.

Keepin' it classy and reinforcing why some/many in healthcare cringe when having to deal with psychiatry. Anyone who wants to make significant money goes into finance/business and doesn't slum it in a service industry.

 

[st2205]

some/many in healthcare cringe when having to deal with psychiatry.

Ok.