ARNP, PhD..."call me Doctor"

[BruceWilly]

I think I'm going to ask the nurses to call me master or maybe the bachelor.

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[psych md jd]

I think I'm going to ask the nurses to call me master or maybe the bachelor.

If so, the nurses will call you for sure.

Probably at 2:30am for a prn laxative order every time you are on call.

 

[Extralong]

Psychiatry and psychology are grossly different fields with different training models. I would NEVER EVER say one has smarter people then another, and this applies both ways. For example, you can be brilliant, but if you want to sit around on your butt all day and not study the insane hours that is needed for exams in med school, you will not become a physician, and vice versa, you can have extremely amazing work ethic, but if you cannot critically think in the way necessary for your PhD, you wont be able to get it. There are smart people that study and think critically and are in medical and non-medical fields; end of story. So I hope we can stop the pissing contest. I like being a physician and I will think of myself as someone that deserves what ever I deserve, because from my perspective, I spent way too long becoming a physician. I'm sure others from medical and non-medical fields feel the same way.

Regarding non-physicians being called a doctor, that doesn't bother me too much as long as its in the proper context. What really makes me mad is when non-MDs say they are "board certified" in "fill in the blank" and its similar sounding to what a physician's job is. Further, many patients do recognize the term doctor is used liberally, and on my ID badge, it says xxx xxx, MD, so I don't get flustered too much. If necessary, I can pull the following card "I'm a physician that specializes in the mental health."

 

[smalltownpsych]

Psychiatry and psychology are grossly different fields with different training models. I would NEVER EVER say one has smarter people then another, and this applies both ways. For example, you can be brilliant, but if you want to sit around on your butt all day and not study the insane hours that is needed for exams in med school, you will not become a physician, and vice versa, you can have extremely amazing work ethic, but if you cannot critically think in the way necessary for your PhD, you wont be able to get it. There are smart people that study and think critically and are in medical and non-medical fields; end of story. So I hope we can stop the pissing contest. I like being a physician and I will think of myself as someone that deserves what ever I deserve, because from my perspective, I spent way too long becoming a physician. I'm sure others from medical and non-medical fields feel the same way.

Regarding non-physicians being called a doctor, that doesn't bother me too much as long as its in the proper context. What really makes me mad is when non-MDs say they are "board certified" in "fill in the blank" and its similar sounding to what a physician's job is. Further, many patients do recognize the term doctor is used liberally, and on my ID badge, it says xxx xxx, MD, so I don't get flustered too much. If necessary, I can pull the following card "I'm a physician that specializes in the mental health."

I didn't think there was a pissing contest going on as opposed to a concern about a psychologist who is practicing as a nurse practitioner and then calling him or her self a doctor because of their psychology degree. This is misrepresentation. If someone thinks people such as myself should not be called doctor at the hospital where I am clearly practicing as a licensed clinical psychologist, that is another issue. I have heard of a few hospitals that don't want psychologists to be called doctor because we aren't medical doctors but most people seem to know generally what a psychologist is so I don't think it is really necessary to make that distinction. Of course, they do confuse psychiatrists and psychologists alot so maybe we should just stick with shrink.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

On the doctor title note -- clinical encounter last night. I introduce myself to a younger man as Dr. B. He immediately says, "oh hi Miss B." WTH. Seriously -- does that happen to men? I get that this young man was just a little socially clueless and likely doesn't even know what a doctor is, but it's still weird (and just a tiny bit annoying).

 

[Shikima]

On the doctor title note -- clinical encounter last night. I introduce myself to a younger man as Dr. B. He immediately says, "oh hi Miss B." WTH. Seriously -- does that happen to men? I get that this young man was just a little socially clueless and likely doesn't even know what a doctor is, but it's still weird (and just a tiny bit annoying).

I get called by my first name all of the time. We're a more crass and rude society... welcome to 'change'.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I get called by my first name all of the time. We're a more crass and rude society... welcome to 'change'.

So if he called me by my first name, I'd get it. I still think the conversion from Dr. to Miss/Ms/Mrs is really odd and suggestive of something related to me being female. He's trying to be respectful and getting it dead wrong. I guess what I'm asking is if any male doctors are ever called Mr. by their patients. I actually much rather be called by my first name than Miss/Ms/Mrs in a clinical situation.

 

[nitemagi]

I have never been called Mr. by a patient. I think you're right, DB, it's a reflection of sexism.

 

[NickNaylor]

On the doctor title note -- clinical encounter last night. I introduce myself to a younger man as Dr. B. He immediately says, "oh hi Miss B." WTH. Seriously -- does that happen to men? I get that this young man was just a little socially clueless and likely doesn't even know what a doctor is, but it's still weird (and just a tiny bit annoying).

This has never happened to me but I've heard of it happening to by female colleagues. Pretty unfortunate.

In terms of what people call you, I don't think it matters all that much but I do think being called "doctor" helps cement the relationship and formalizes just how you and your patients are related. I'd be worried that by going Mr./Ms./[first name] the relationship might get too casual. It's a pretty minor point but I think it reinforces the nature of the relationship.

In terms of other staff using the title, I think it's appropriate if the doctorate is clinically related. However, I do think it's important for patients to understand who is treating them, even if that person might be a DNP, psychologist, or whoever. One of the hospitals I rotated at as a med student had physicians wear grey coats instead of the white coats that everyone wore. I think that helped patients keep straight who was seeing them and what their credentials were. Obviously this is less of an issue in an outpatient setting, but in a hospital where 5 staff members of different qualifications and training might be seeing a patient, I think it helps keep things straight.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have never been called Mr. by a patient. I think you're right, DB, it's a reflection of sexism.

Agreed.

I have seen this in the South, and it was chalked up as "cultural"; I still think it was sexist.

 

[smalltownpsych]

This has never happened to me but I've heard of it happening to by female colleagues. Pretty unfortunate.

In terms of what people call you, I don't think it matters all that much but I do think being called "doctor" helps cement the relationship and formalizes just how you and your patients are related. I'd be worried that by going Mr./Ms./[first name] the relationship might get too casual. It's a pretty minor point but I think it reinforces the nature of the relationship.

In terms of other staff using the title, I think it's appropriate if the doctorate is clinically related. However, I do think it's important for patients to understand who is treating them, even if that person might be a DNP, psychologist, or whoever. One of the hospitals I rotated at as a med student had physicians wear grey coats instead of the white coats that everyone wore. I think that helped patients keep straight who was seeing them and what their credentials were. Obviously this is less of an issue in an outpatient setting, but in a hospital where 5 staff members of different qualifications and training might be seeing a patient, I think it helps keep things straight.

I don't agree with making a DNP and a psychologist equivalent. A psychologist is a terminal licensed doctoral degree. There are MA counselors who tack on questionable doctorate degrees to mislead patients all the time. A psychologist who works at a hospital is not trying to mislead patients into thinking he or she is a physician, but I would venture to say that the whole point of a doctorate in nursing might be intended for just that. Our PMHNP loves to wear the white coat while I just wear my khakis and dress shirt. One day she was even wearing scrubs and I am pretty sure she wasn't involved in a surgical procedure. Which one is being clearer about their role?

 

[NickNaylor]

I don't agree with making a DNP and a psychologist equivalent. A psychologist is a terminal licensed doctoral degree. There are MA counselors who tack on questionable doctorate degrees to mislead patients all the time. A psychologist who works at a hospital is not trying to mislead patients into thinking he or she is a physician, but I would venture to say that the whole point of a doctorate in nursing might be intended for just that. Our PMHNP loves to wear the white coat while I just wear my khakis and dress shirt. One day she was even wearing scrubs and I am pretty sure she wasn't involved in a surgical procedure. Which one is being clearer about their role?

I completely agree. I'm not the biggest fan of NPs and didn't intend to equate them as equivalent to psychologists. I have more respect for the latter.

 

[jakeislove]

Role confusion is not a good thing. People sometimes address me as a forensic psychologist. I then go to great pains to clarify: the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist is about $150,000 a year.

But seriously, although you may have earned the right to be called "doctor," it is the patient's subjective belief as to what you are that matters. If you do not make it explicitly clear as to your role (where there may be confusion) you may need to call the guy to the left.

On day 1 of forensic fellowship you are told to tell the examinee: "I am not your doctor. I was sent by the court to examine you. I will not be treating you...

Also, as a bona fide juris doctor and physician do you call me Doctor Doctor? [Can't you see I'm burning, burning?]

...
Oh, doctor, doctor, is this love, I'm feeling?

 

[hamstergang]

I guess what I'm asking is if any male doctors are ever called Mr. by their patients.

With kids, I get called Mr. not infrequently.

 

[olivarynucleus]

I don't agree with making a DNP and a psychologist equivalent. A psychologist is a terminal licensed doctoral degree. There are MA counselors who tack on questionable doctorate degrees to mislead patients all the time. A psychologist who works at a hospital is not trying to mislead patients into thinking he or she is a physician, but I would venture to say that the whole point of a doctorate in nursing might be intended for just that. Our PMHNP loves to wear the white coat while I just wear my khakis and dress shirt. One day she was even wearing scrubs and I am pretty sure she wasn't involved in a surgical procedure. Which one is being clearer about their role?

How can people not hate nurses???

 

[Doctor Bagel]

How can people not hate nurses???

?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

With kids, I get called Mr. not infrequently.

Yeah, I think that could have been part of it with this person because even though he was an adult, he seemed to not have basic adult social functioning skills. I've had adult patients call me Ms/Miss/Mrs, too, and that's much more annoying. It's also odd to specifically introduce yourself one way and have someone immediately say "oh hi, something you didn't introduce yourself as." Now, ever had an adult patient call you Mr? I've had adult patients call me Miss/Ms/Mrs.

 

[deleted343839]

In terms of other staff using the title, I think it's appropriate if the doctorate is clinically related. However, I do think it's important for patients to understand who is treating them, even if that person might be a DNP, psychologist, or whoever.

Exactly. The role and title should be unambiguous to the patient. That's part of informed consent, no? Which is why I lead with, "I'm MamaPhD; I'm a psychologist and I specialize in ... I understand that Dr. ReferringPhysician recommended that you see me today because ..." How hard is that? Rarely - maybe every couple of years - a patient will decline to speak with me once they understand that I'm a psychologist. It's not what we like to see, but it's the patient's right.

In the US, a doctoral degree is the minimum training required to enter the psychology profession. I am suspicious of emerging "practice doctorates" that don't appear to actually change a health care professional's scope of practice (DNP, DPT, etc.). That is a separate issue from the truth-in-advertising problem, but there seems to be a general consensus that if your doctoral degree is not directed tied to your licensed profession and/or designated role, you shouldn't use the title.

 

[Shikima]

Yeah, I think that could have been part of it with this person because even though he was an adult, he seemed to not have basic adult social functioning skills. I've had adult patients call me Ms/Miss/Mrs, too, and that's much more annoying. It's also odd to specifically introduce yourself one way and have someone immediately say "oh hi, something you didn't introduce yourself as." Now, ever had an adult patient call you Mr? I've had adult patients call me Miss/Ms/Mrs.

Occasionally I do, but typically it's with the older population.

 

[hamstergang]

Now, ever had an adult patient call you Mr?

Not that I recall.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I don't agree with making a DNP and a psychologist equivalent. A psychologist is a terminal licensed doctoral degree. There are MA counselors who tack on questionable doctorate degrees to mislead patients all the time. A psychologist who works at a hospital is not trying to mislead patients into thinking he or she is a physician, but I would venture to say that the whole point of a doctorate in nursing might be intended for just that.

I don't think it's intended to mislead patients per se. I had a girl in a DPT program tell me that the reason for the degree inflation in physical therapy (which started as a "mere" bachelor's degree) is to bolster the push for independent practice; in this case, for PTs to be able to bill insurance without a physician referral. I think that in the NP world, the intention is to bolster their case for being able to practice completely independently of any physician oversight collaborative agreement.

 

[heyjack70]

I don't think it's intended to mislead patients per se. I had a girl in a DPT program tell me that the reason for the degree inflation in physical therapy (which started as a "mere" bachelor's degree) is to bolster the push for independent practice; in this case, for PTs to be able to bill insurance without a physician referral. I think that in the NP world, the intention is to bolster their case for being able to practice completely independently of any physician oversight collaborative agreement.

This is another problem and a BS way for non physicians to convince legislators to vote them increased scope of practice not justified by their training.