As a 4th year med student, my DEBT Story, must read

[reedsposer22]

Hi, I am senior at a school in Chicago, I have been a member since 2009, but rarely post. But this needs to be told before you decided to become a medical student:

here is my story on my medical school debt:

http://rushrussian.blogspot.com/

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[Spitphire]

I did find it odd that most students say their debt is only around 100,000. Also, I think it's unfair to say that people need to be slapped because their parents help pay for their medical school costs. I'm sure they're very appreciative! That's like saying some people need to be slapped for their parents paying for their undergrad costs too.

Regardless, it was a nice read about a first hand experience with the debt instead of statistics. Congrats on making it through!

 

[Lya]

I am actually more surprised by your post about the ancillary staff. I've only heard about such employees, but I didn't know it was that bad. Waiting for 5 hours before getting the urine sample is not understandable.

 

[swolebrah]

Agree with your post in the end stating how a lot of medical school kids don't know the value of money.

 

[Chir0nex]

While 135K seems a bit low, it may be that that most of the people in the 1-50K category end up paying nothing, and thus greatly skew the mean. I would be interested in seeing if the median debt is significantly higher.

 

[mvenus929]

I filled out the GQ survey this morning too. My debt, as an OOS student at a state school, is $197K. I received over $70K in scholarships and grants. Yes, I'm still above that national average, but just because your school doesn't have great scholarship funds doesn't mean that every school is like that, which is why it's good for people to actually look at the financial aid packages when comparing schools--they can vary significantly in end-cost.

Also, you're supposed to list your principle amounts only--you mentioned in your post that your debt goes up a little every day, but the GQ survey doesn't take into account the interest you accumulate during school.

 

[reedsposer22]

I filled out the GQ survey this morning too. My debt, as an OOS student at a state school, is $197K. I received over $70K in scholarships and grants.

Also, you're supposed to list your principle amounts only--you mentioned in your post that your debt goes up a little every day, but the GQ survey doesn't take into account the interest you accumulate during school.

First, Congrats on getting a years worth of medical school paid for with scholarships/grants! 2ndly, I personally listed only my principle on the survey, which I think was around $263,000 by the time I took my last loan amount in October. The interest accumulation rate is incredible. I did the math and it comes out to $300 dollars a week of interest.

3rd, What speciality are you going into? Best of luck!

 

[mvenus929]

First, Congrats on getting a years worth of medical school paid for with scholarships/grants! 2ndly, I personally listed only my principle on the survey, which I think was around $263,000 by the time I took my last loan amount in October. The interest accumulation rate is incredible. I did the math and it comes out to $300 dollars a week of interest.

3rd, What speciality are you going into? Best of luck!

Thanks! I didn't realize it was quite so much until I looked up my financial aid statements this morning. Crazy. And yeah, the interest accumulation is horrible. I'm glad we managed to get 2 years of subsidized loans and a slight break in interest rates during fourth year. But I'm not especially looking forward to exit interviews and seeing all the numbers before me again :/

I'm going into Peds. From your blog, looks like you're going into Path. Good luck to you as well 5 weeks to go!

 

[solitarius]

Thanks for sharing. "Averages" can be useless, but they do include in-state tuition and superstars getting their full tuition scholarships. And the rich kids too. And with more non-trads, it can include their savings or their working spouse's contribution.

 

[xffan624]

Thanks for sharing. "Averages" can be useless, but they do include in-state tuition and superstars getting their full tuition scholarships. And the rich kids too. And with more non-trads, it can include their savings or their working spouse's contribution.

Don't forget military HPSP or veterans who are funded through GI Bill or vocational rehab. There's about 6 or so in my class.

 

[reedsposer22]

Don't forget military HPSP or veterans who are funded through GI Bill or vocational rehab. There's about 6 or so in my class.

That is quite a bit through GI bill. We only have 1. What is vocational rehab?! Thanks!

 

[xffan624]

That is quite a bit through GI bill. We only have 1. What is vocational rehab?! Thanks!

I was counting GI bill, voc rehab, and HPSP students all combined. It's probably higher than six at my school, I just don't know all of them. Vocational rehab is a program that allows 20% or above disabled veterans get funding to go to school in order to secure them a job. It's not a guarantee that you will be approved for school, it's just one option they can offer among others. It gives a GI bill stipend if you still have GI bill benefits (otherwise the stipend is much lower) and the difference between it and the GI bill is that it doesn't run out in 36 months. I'm trying to switch over right now from GI bill to voc rehab.

 

[TheShaker]

First, Congrats on getting a years worth of medical school paid for with scholarships/grants! 2ndly, I personally listed only my principle on the survey, which I think was around $263,000 by the time I took my last loan amount in October. The interest accumulation rate is incredible. I did the math and it comes out to $300 dollars a week of interest.

3rd, What speciality are you going into? Best of luck!

 

[ace12345]

This is crazy. Is it even possible to pay for med school without parental/HPSP help?

 

[reedsposer22]

This is crazy. Is it even possible to pay for med school without parental/HPSP help?

It is precisely CRAZY AS EFF. I had no idea what I was getting into. My two interest rates are, 6.8% and other is 7.9%. I put off being educated on my loan until this year. I regret it a bit. I would have tried moving into a cheaper apartment. Being in Chicago though, it is hard to find a cheap apartment.

Your question, of without parental help, it is possible. I am not getting parental assistance. I will be paying a small monthly amount in residency ($300 or so a month is my guess) and then more as an attending.

It just needs to be discussed and thought about and that is why I posted this thread. I am not bitter about the amount but looking at it does scare me, and it did influence me to choose my specialty. I went from Family Medicine to Pathology, and part of it was the pay increase.

 

[Psai]

It is precisely CRAZY AS EFF. I had no idea what I was getting into. My two interest rates are, 6.8% and other is 7.9%. I put off being educated on my loan until this year. I regret it a bit. I would have tried moving into a cheaper apartment. Being in Chicago though, it is hard to find a cheap apartment.

Your question, of without parental help, it is possible. I am not getting parental assistance. I will be paying a small monthly amount in residency ($300 or so a month is my guess) and then more as an attending.

It just needs to be discussed and thought about and that is why I posted this thread. I am not bitter about the amount but looking at it does scare me, and it did influence me to choose my specialty. I went from Family Medicine to Pathology, and part of it was the pay increase.

Oh but you're going to be a rich doctor making waaayyy more than the average American household so you should stop compla lol jk

 

[solitarius]

There are a ton of medical students paying in-state tuition at about $25K - $35K a clip, including the ones in Massachusetts paying close to nothing and the massive Texas system where people are only paying $19K.

 

[ace12345]

There are a ton of medical students paying in-state tuition at about $25K - $35K a clip, including the ones in Massachusetts paying close to nothing and the massive Texas system where people are only paying $19K.

With all due respect, what does this have to do with anything? A state med school that charges 35K and almost always another 10 for summer charges is going to be in the OPs ballpark. It's a huge problem, how is anyone expected to practice low-paying specialities?

Of course when I say low-paying, that is relative. Then again, how many people on lower pay scales have 200,000 in debt?

 

[DermViser]

Hi, I am senior at a school in Chicago, I have been a member since 2009, but rarely post. But this needs to be told before you decided to become a medical student:

here is my story on my medical school debt:

http://rushrussian.blogspot.com/

Now can you imagine paying all that tuition and either a) not matching or b) matching in a low paying specialty like Family Medicine, where you'll have no way of paying it off? Yeah, now you know why so many medical students gun for the ROAD specialties and want to specialize if they do enter a general field (assuming they're able to get the fellowship).

 

[blixxex]

So... if I know how to pole dance - can I do that twice a week? Or would I be kicked out? :/ (100% totally honest question!) I only did it for fitness in the past but hey if I will help with the debt, anything is worth a try. If there are men stupid enough to throw money at me, then why not capitalize the chance.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

So... if I know how to pole dance - can I do that twice a week? Or would I be kicked out? :/ (100% totally honest question!) I only did it for fitness in the past but hey if I will help with the debt, anything is worth a try. If there are men stupid enough to throw money at me, then why not capitalize the chance.

 

[LostinLift]

So... if I know how to pole dance - can I do that twice a week? Or would I be kicked out? :/ (100% totally honest question!) I only did it for fitness in the past but hey if I will help with the debt, anything is worth a try. If there are men stupid enough to throw money at me, then why not capitalize the chance.

One of the doctors I worked with told me she was a dancer (stripper, called them dancers back then) in medical school to help pay. She is a baller and everyone likes her. She's probably pushing 70 now and still wears a dress and heels under her white coat every day.

 

[Gauss44]

I've been wondering how frequently people get their student loans wiped away with a "time barred debt." There's a great discussion here that starts near the bottom of the first page with Codename47 statement (2nd to last post): http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1295095/ Obviously, it's a risky gamble.

 

[NontradCA]

I was counting GI bill, voc rehab, and HPSP students all combined. It's probably higher than six at my school, I just don't know all of them. Vocational rehab is a program that allows 20% or above disabled veterans get funding to go to school in order to secure them a job. It's not a guarantee that you will be approved for school, it's just one option they can offer among others. It gives a GI bill stipend if you still have GI bill benefits (otherwise the stipend is much lower) and the difference between it and the GI bill is that it doesn't run out in 36 months. I'm trying to switch over right now from GI bill to voc rehab.

Pm me

 

[mvenus929]

Now can you imagine paying all that tuition and either a) not matching or b) matching in a low paying specialty like Family Medicine, where you'll have no way of paying it off?

This statement irks me. You should absolutely be able to pay off your debt with a family medicine salary. If you can't, then you aren't managing your money appropriately or taking advantage of various ways of paying it back. It may take you 20 years if you aren't willing to make sacrifices early on, but you will be able to pay it back so long as you can continue working.

 

[DermViser]

This statement irks me. You should absolutely be able to pay off your debt with a family medicine salary. If you can't, then you aren't managing your money appropriately or taking advantage of various ways of paying it back. It may take you 20 years if you aren't willing to make sacrifices early on, but you will be able to pay it back so long as you can continue working.

It depends on the amount of debt you have from medical school. If you are in Family Medicine, you will have a hard time paying it back in the same time frame as someone from a highly paid specialty. Those are the facts. The level of sacrifice, financially, will be much harder on an FM salary, forget lifestyle considerations.

 

[mvenus929]

It depends on the amount of debt you have from medical school. If you are in Family Medicine, you will have a hard time paying it back in the same time frame as someone from a highly paid specialty. Those are the facts. The level of sacrifice, financially, will be much harder on an FM salary, forget lifestyle considerations.

Taking longer to pay it off or having to make more sacrifices to pay it off as quickly does not mean that you will not be able to pay it off.

 

[DermViser]

Taking longer to pay it off or having to make more sacrifices to pay it off as quickly does not mean that you will not be able to pay it off.

You're right. I should diferentiate between paying it all off, and enjoying your life, and paying it off till the day you die.

 

[reedsposer22]

You're right. I should diferentiate between paying it all off, and enjoying your life, and paying it off till the day you die.

Dermviser, what you said hit true with me, that is partially why I switched to pathology, the pay is much better overall. Family was ok as a specialty, but pathology is much more exciting and diverse than family. I would go crazy in family trying to see 25-30 patients a day and making my money as the government and insurance companies try to pay less per office visit. I could not handle the stress of writing that many notes per day either.
For the hours worked to the compensation received , family medicine is a financially foolish choice.

 

[DermViser]

Dermviser, what you said hit true with me, that is partially why I switched to pathology, the pay is much better overall. Family was ok as a specialty, but pathology is much more exciting and diverse than family. I would go crazy in family trying to see 25-30 patients a day and making my money as the government and insurance companies try to pay less per office visit. I could not handle the stress of writing that many notes per day either.
For the hours worked to the compensation received , family medicine is a financially foolish choice.

It's too much work and paperwork, for too little pay and for too little respect. On top of that you have patients, many of whom are non-compliant who have chronic medical programs that you can never really cure, just manage. There's a reason why primary care medicine is being taken over by NPs and PAs, bc for doctors it has just become too frustrating.

 

[jakeislove]

A lot of people will be doing IBR.

 

[link2swim06]

I have feeling the average is considerably lower than yours for a few reasons:
(1) You live in a very expensive city. There is nothing cheap about Chicago. Most med student probably require half of what you need for living expenses (i.e. with one roommate, my rent M1/M2 year was ~$310/mo which included all utilities except internet....and this was a pretty new apartment).
(2) Your med school isn't cheap. Actually it is probably in the top 1/3 for most expensive. I pay ~34K per year, which is probably average. On the other end of the spectrum some people in Texas pay less than 15K per year pulling the average down.
(3) Some people's parents probably paid 100% of their tuition pulling the average away from the true median.


Maybe you had a choice to go to a cheaper med school in a cheaper city. Maybe you didn't. Regardless, I obviously agree med school tuition is out of control. I am pushing 200K myself.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Lol at 300k debt. I feel seriously bad for you

 

[reedsposer22]

A lot of people will be doing IBR.

What is IBR?

 

[chenzt]

Income based repayment. As of now, working ten years in a non-profit and anything remaining would be forgiven. Although I feel like that loophole won't be there in 10-15 years for us to take advantage.

 

[UltimateforFun]

Honestly it really is just the evil interest rates that are going to crush us all....

 

[iceman55]

I don't think your situation is that bad because you don't have any debt from undergrad.

This may not mean much, but I have a family member who graduated med school with 350k ( med school + undergrad). He has now been an EM attending for the past two years making about 260k and told me it will take him about 12-13 years to pay it all off. On top of that he seems to be living pretty comfortably while paying off his loans.

It's not like his living paycheck to paycheck.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Income based repayment. As of now, working ten years in a non-profit and anything remaining would be forgiven. Although I feel like that loophole won't be there in 10-15 years for us to take advantage.

You are not describing IBR.

 

[chenzt]

You are not describing IBR.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based

"10-year public service loan forgiveness—If, while you are employed full-time for a public service organization, you make 120 on-time, full monthly payments under IBR (or certain other repayment plans) you may be eligible to receive forgiveness of the remaining balance of your Direct Loans through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program."

"Qualifying employment is any employment with a federal, state, or local government agency, entity, or organization or a not-for-profit organization that has been designated as tax-exempt by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC). The type or nature of employment with the organization does not matter for PSLF purposes. Additionally, the type of services that these public service organizations provide does not matter for PSLF purposes. "

Most hospitals are 501(c)(3).

 

[Chipster.]

So should I be significantly less worried about the astronomical price of my institution if I'm hoping to stay in academic medicine at a hospital?

 

[PharmlyDoc]

http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based

"10-year public service loan forgiveness—If, while you are employed full-time for a public service organization, you make 120 on-time, full monthly payments under IBR (or certain other repayment plans) you may be eligible to receive forgiveness of the remaining balance of your Direct Loans through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program."

"Qualifying employment is any employment with a federal, state, or local government agency, entity, or organization or a not-for-profit organization that has been designated as tax-exempt by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC). The type or nature of employment with the organization does not matter for PSLF purposes. Additionally, the type of services that these public service organizations provide does not matter for PSLF purposes. "

Most hospitals are 501(c)(3).

Not sure if this counts but I've been working for the YMCA for almost 7 years. Thing is they don't put anyone on full time besides directors...and more recently because of the ACA I can only work 25 hours a week. btw, i just got a 2% raise, and now I'm making $7.91 per hour, hooray!

 

[circulus vitios]

Dermviser, what you said hit true with me, that is partially why I switched to pathology, the pay is much better overall. Family was ok as a specialty, but pathology is much more exciting and diverse than family. I would go crazy in family trying to see 25-30 patients a day and making my money as the government and insurance companies try to pay less per office visit. I could not handle the stress of writing that many notes per day either.
For the hours worked to the compensation received , family medicine is a financially foolish choice.

If you like business and/or you have no qualms with running a meat-moving operation, I've read that you can still make decent money, like $500k/yr, running your own practice. Of course, it might take 5 years of building your practice to get to that point.

 

[chenzt]

So should I be significantly less worried about the astronomical price of my institution if I'm hoping to stay in academic medicine at a hospital?

Well... We're assuming that this will exist in 10-15 years. Your choices are pay minimum and hope you can take advantage of this in ~2025. If not, you are then saddled with unnecessary extra principle because you didn't pay down the loan aggressively.

 

[tigga2013]

This is why you go to a state school (if you have a choice)...

10 cheapest public
http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...-public-medical-schools-for-in-state-students

10 cheapest private (*notice ~half are DO schools)
http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...10-most-affordable-private-medical-schools/11

It is a massive difference in price altho end result is no different - your MD

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Well... We're assuming that this will exist in 10-15 years. Your choices are pay minimum and hope you can take advantage of this in ~2025. If not, you are then saddled with unnecessary extra principle because you didn't pay down the loan aggressively.

Yeah, I wouldn't count on loan forgiveness sticking around for physicians, but at least by the time most of us are ready to start seriously paying off loans, we'll have an idea of how the gov't/public are reacting to loan forgiveness. As of right now, all we get to do is speculate.

 

[chenzt]

Yeah, I wouldn't count on loan forgiveness sticking around for physicians, but at least by the time most of us are ready to start seriously paying off loans, we'll have an idea of how the gov't/public are reacting to loan forgiveness. As of right now, all we get to do is speculate.

I just can't wait to see "Dermatologists to receive 300k in loan forgiveness from Dept. of Education, now set to make millions" showing up on New York Times lol.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Damn I didn't realize Rush was that expensive.

 

[Mbekweni]

As student debt rises it is increasingly important to stay on top of finances from Day 1 of medical school, and especially residency when the (albeit small) paychecks start to come in. I know a ton of residents who just went with forbearance for their loans because they were intimidated by the finances. It pays to get savvy, work hard, save hard and make a solid plan for keeping expenses down while paying down debt and saving for retirement. It is still possible to lead a good life as a doctor with big loans, but you do need to be more careful than ever. It's not at all a path to riches, especially without a lot of foresight. Here are some links to some of the best financial resources that I've found as I make my way through residency.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/new-to-the-blog-start-here/
http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/automate-your-personal-finances/
http://www.emp.com/wealth-management-videos
https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action

 

[reedsposer22]

Damn I didn't realize Rush was that expensive.

Ya it is insanely Expensive!!! MD though!

 

[reedsposer22]

Damn I didn't realize Rush was that expensive.

Here is a break down of my yearly costs!!!

http://rushrussian.blogspot.com/2014/02/medical-school-cost-break-down-by-year.html