Ask a first year small animal vet

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I think the realism of this forum is important for the aspect that vet med seems to be getting worse over time. If it's like this now and people are real about it, then students are able to think into the future to when they'll be applying/studying/graduating/working and think, "How much worse is this going to be when I'm going through such and such portion of the process?" I was raised with the "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" mentality, and so the realism on this forum has been great for me so I can think of these things before hand.

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I say that there there are occurrences of nonsense that have happened that give validity to the OP's statement, and you say something like this. Never did I say it was everyone. If I wanted to say everyone, I would have.

Yeah, but taking an extreme example to make your point is not very conducive.

If that's the game we're playing, I vote we bring up brodiatrist as an example of how obnoxious prevets can be.


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Maybe it's just because I'm not much of a sunshine and rainbows kinda person, but my favorite thing about this forum is the vets who remind those of us trying to get in that this is real life and it's not necessarily easy. I would so much rather hear the realities of the profession then be naive about what I'm getting myself into.
 
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Well, 6 years ago I wouldn't have wanted to hear the truth either. But truth is that the profession really sucks at times, and it's not all sunshine and daisies. Yah it's cool that I accomplished a life long goal, but there's a lot to that goal that I dislike. Just so happens there's a lot I like, though. But I'm not going to sugar coat that to a pre-vet if asked. That'd be lying, and lying is wrong.
 
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I think the capstone of this entire conversation is:

Hey pre-vets. We love you guys. We really do. Because we were there once. We love your enthusiasm and excitement. We're not here to be asshats. And we aren't here to judge your worthiness. We just want to tell you our stories, both the good and the bad.

Vet med is still a small and intense field. And at our core, we want to help. Seriously guys, we do. We may call you out on things, and make you uncomfortable. But it isn't to just feel high and mighty or **** like that. Because trust me, we don't feel high and mighty. Our advice, even our aggressive advice, is meant for your betterment and future happiness. We wouldn't even be here in this community if we didn't care. I've been here for what, 10 years, a third of my life, and it's because I care. Same with the others.
 
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However, I don't have an SO and I can't live for free for 10 years... that sticks me into this range of.... well, that 25 year repayment plan is going to be squeezing me tight. As in, I would have no savings at the end of each month. However, loans would be paid off and I wouldn't have to worry about that income tax on a forgiven amount. However, if I ever want to own a home (which I do)... placing myself on this plan would instantly disqualify me from a home loan.

So, we look at IBR, I can set myself up to be on IBR, pay that amount for a little bit as I get comfortable with how much I am making and how to go about directing my money to different resources. I would also then be able to qualify for a home loan. The thing about this, is that I can vary how much I pay... I can pay that minimum of $850/month or I can bump it up to $1500 one month, if I have the means.
Which repayment plan disqualifies you from a home loan, and how?
 
Which repayment plan disqualifies you from a home loan, and how?

When you apply for a mortgage, lenders calculate a maximum percentage of your income that is 'allowed' to go towards debt repayment. This number is somewhere around 35%. So, regardless of how much actual income you're left with after taxes/debt/etc, if you're paying 35% of your income towards student loan debt, you will be unable to qualify for a mortgage.
 
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When you apply for a mortgage, lenders calculate a maximum percentage of your income that is 'allowed' to go towards debt repayment. This number is somewhere around 35%. So, regardless of how much actual income you're left with after taxes/debt/etc, if you're paying 35% of your income towards student loan debt, you will be unable to qualify for a mortgage.

This. Thanks for explaining that.
 
When you apply for a mortgage, lenders calculate a maximum percentage of your income that is 'allowed' to go towards debt repayment. This number is somewhere around 35%. So, regardless of how much actual income you're left with after taxes/debt/etc, if you're paying 35% of your income towards student loan debt, you will be unable to qualify for a mortgage.
Huh, did not know that. Thanks!
 
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When you apply for a mortgage, lenders calculate a maximum percentage of your income that is 'allowed' to go towards debt repayment. This number is somewhere around 35%. So, regardless of how much actual income you're left with after taxes/debt/etc, if you're paying 35% of your income towards student loan debt, you will be unable to qualify for a mortgage.
Which is kind of why I don't know how my boyfriend and I will ever get a home. I'm wondering if it really would be better for him to get one now (he is financially stable on his own) before we become a 'unit.' I haven't really looked into the ramifications my loans will have on a house yet. We're always told student debt is 'good' debt and that it's not supposed to prevent us from getting a home loan, but obviously not always true.
 
Which is kind of why I don't know how my boyfriend and I will ever get a home. I'm wondering if it really would be better for him to get one now (he is financially stable on his own) before we become a 'unit.' I haven't really looked into the ramifications my loans will have on a house yet. We're always told student debt is 'good' debt and that it's not supposed to prevent us from getting a home loan, but obviously not always true.

The way I am understanding that they look at it is based on minimum monthly bills. So add up all the monthly bills you have to pay.... car, student loans, cell phone, etc.... Once you have that amount divide that by your monthly income. So, this is where IBR helps, because instead of having a $2000+ minimum monthly student loan, you can have an $850 minimum monthly student loan. You can still pay $2000 on that loan each month if you have the means but your maximum obligation (the amount you have to pay before they start threatening to take away your first born child) is only $850.

Now, he's just your boyfriend, you don't have to report anything together unless you are both looking to put your names on the mortgage. Then they'd still probably consider you each individually instead of combining your incomes and debts. If you're married, I'd think your incomes and debts would be combined. You'd have to look this up as I haven't really liked into it but that makes most sense to me.
 
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And the percentage chickenlittle mentioned varies depending upon the mortgage and lender. I've seen 43% tossed around as kind of a maximum.
 
And the percentage chickenlittle mentioned varies depending upon the mortgage and lender. I've seen 43% tossed around as kind of a maximum.

True. I think it depends what type of loan you're doing - 43% is okay for FHA loans (but they have significantly higher fees), while conventional loans tend to be lower. We're in the process of buying a new house this month and 35% is the number our lender uses, so that number was fresh in my head :)

And yes, they calculate it based on minimum payments. The limits for our loan were that our mortgage payment could be no more than 25% of our income and that our total debt repayment (mortgage payment + all other monthly debt payments) could be no more than 35% of our income. The second number included our monthly car payment, minimum credit card payments (as of the day the pulled our credit report), and would have included our monthly student loan payment if either of us had student loans. Not sure how marriage effects things.... I think our last mortgage was in my name only and didn't use my husband's income to qualify, so maybe debts that were only in his name would not have been counted? Then again, that was before the banking crisis and I know that banks have become significantly more restrictive in recent years.
 
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Re: Mortgages

Student loan debt is very much applied against you, the "good debt" thing is a myth. I recently bought a house and the banks made that very obvious that they don't seem to care if its education debt or hookers and crack debt. I have a little under $100,000 in student loan debt. I make a good salary of $70,000. I also have a car payment. I have zero credit card debt. Despite having an excellent credit score, the debt was eating up enough of my gross salary that I was denied for a comparatively small mortgage. (Luckily, I found a company willing to take my emergency fees and upcoming raise into account which makes my ratios prettier).

So even with an above average starting salary, a low mortgage (119,000) and less than average vet student debt, the debt can definitely affect your ability to get approved.
 
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I'm fairly certain that if you apply for a mortgage in one person's name, they can't look at the other person's debt. Both times my hubby and I bought homes we did so based on my income only. I don't remember them looking at his student loans at all. I think it only comes into play if the mortgage applicant co-signed on the spouses debts.


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I recently ran the numbers for the ultimate cost of the dream school vs. the two schools my state has contracts with (I have no actual IS) and it was pretty sad. The dream school has been the dream, but even with instate tuition after the first year, it's an astronomical difference. Granted, who knows if I will even get in to the the dream school, but I'm starting to wonder if I should even tempt myself by applying. I think future me would be pretty upset with current me. Kind of a crappy realization I've finally let myself have, but honestly the vets on this forum are what have finally made me get out of lala land:(
 
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I'm fairly certain that if you apply for a mortgage in one person's name, they can't look at the other person's debt. Both times my hubby and I bought homes we did so based on my income only. I don't remember them looking at his student loans at all. I think it only comes into play if the mortgage applicant co-signed on the spouses debts.


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This. My husband is the one that 'bought' our house even though both of our names are on it. They didn't even look at my debt (or my income). If you can afford to ignore your income, then you can also ignore your debt.
 
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While I had a rough idea of how much debt I was going to be in, I'd never actually taken the time to sit down and work it out, so I did the math earlier this week. Needless to say, the results were sobering.

Since I'm getting resident tuition at ISU, which is currently at $22,601 for 2016-2017, I just used that number x 4 + half, $11,300.5, for the summer of clinical year. Obviously this does not take inflation into account, and that number is only going to increase. But just for the ease of calculating things, I assumed that number for all four years. That brings my total tuition costs to $101,705. Not too terrible; I think this is still lower-end among all US vet schools, thankfully.

As for living costs... the rent/utilities for my apartment lease is approximately $7,000/yr. Resident students can borrow up to $16,400/yr for living costs (if I'm remembering the numbers from our financial aid presentation correctly). I'm living without an SO or children, I don't currently plan on bringing pets, I have no car payment (it's already paid off), I will have minimal gas costs because my apartment is within miles of the vet school and is along a bus line with free service to ISU students, and I'm used to living on minimum wage. I highly doubt that I'm going to need an additional $9,400/yr to live off of. So, for simplicity's sake, let's say I take out $11,000/yr. Hey, I can always get more later if I really need to, right? That comes out to $44,000 for all four years.

Adding that $44,000 to $101,705, my total COA comes out to $145,705. Not too bad, surprisingly! I believe this is right around, if not below, the current average vet student debtload. Fantastic. As I mentioned earlier, this does not factor in tuition inflation, which will likely bump it up some, but it still looks feasible for me to graduate vet school with no more than $160,000. Could certainly be worse.

But here is the kicker: I have undergrad debt. A pretty decent amount of it, too. This is a gamechanger.

After five years of full-time undergrad and living on campus, I've got $46,000 in debt already. Ouch. So, adding that onto our current estimate... that brings my total debtload for both undergrad and vet school to $191,705. After interest, capitalization, and inflation... it is almost certainly going to be above $200,000.

This is why I emphasize to pre-vets -- both in real life and online -- to really, really consider going to the cheapest undergrad school possible. It does make a difference. If you're not paying for it, then fine, whatever. I only wish that my parents were in the situation to foot the bill, but they weren't, and I was a terrible student in high school so I got very little in scholarships (if you were lucky enough to get out of undergrad with zero debt, please please please realize how fortunate you are). My $46,000 of debt from a small, relatively cheap public state university is going to change my future situation from one that would have been fairly workable provided I managed to find a decent job into one that is considerably less so. The sad part? My undergrad costs could have easily been double that number if it weren't for grants such as Access Missouri and Pell. Had that been the case, I could have approached $250,000-$300,000 in debt with RESIDENT vet school tuition.

This is still much better than those poor souls who will be at schools where they'll be, say, $250,000 in the hole from tuition alone... but it still is very anxiety-inducing. That being said, I know people make it work. I can, too. Doesn't change the fact that it is going to suck the first 10 or so years out of school. The entire debt:salary situation in vet med is absolutely ludicrous. I literally worry about this every single day, and I can only imagine that it doesn't get any better once you're actually in school.

I got mostly through number crunching without getting nasueous. But I had to stop at cost of living. Tuition alone is $180K, and rent is going to be about $19K for four years. I haven't even factored in pets, gas (I'll be 10 minutes from school) and utilities bills. My parents will help out with the car note, insurance, and cell phone, thank the lord. I don't have UG debt so I agree, pick the cheapest undergrad. You definitely do yourself a service. Oh, and get into your IS too :confused:
 
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I got mostly through number crunching without getting nasueous. But I had to stop at cost of living. Tuition alone is $180K, and rent is going to be about $19K for four years. I haven't even factored in pets, gas (I'll be 10 minutes from school) and utilities bills. My parents will help out with the car note, insurance, and cell phone, thank the lord. I don't have UG debt so I agree, pick the cheapest undergrad. You definitely do yourself a service. Oh, and get into your IS too :confused:
Indeed. Since I managed to get the resident tuition at ISU, that wound up actually being several thousand dollars a year cheaper than my actual IS. Granted, that's not a huge difference, but every bit counts when we're going to be taking on a debtload the size of a mortgage. Plus I kinda just want to get the hell out of MO, haha.

As someone coming from a lower socioeconomic bracket than probably the majority of pre-vets... I'm seriously afraid that, unless something drastic happens (no idea what that may be), vet med may soon become a profession that only those who are already decently wealthy will be able to afford to pursue. Maybe it's already trending towards that direction. I don't know. But considering that, if anything, we need more diversity in many aspects, it just makes me sad.
 
As someone coming from a lower socioeconomic bracket than probably the majority of pre-vets... I'm seriously afraid that, unless something drastic happens (no idea what that may be), vet med may soon become a profession that only those who are already decently wealthy will be able to afford to pursue. Maybe it's already trending towards that direction. I don't know. But considering that, if anything, we need more diversity in many aspects, it just makes me sad.

I'm with you on that. I've wondered myself whether vet school will soon be a thing that belongs only to the privileged or if it's already headed that way.
 
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I'm so glad I discovered this forum before deciding to attend veterinary school. The realism wasn't what I wanted to hear, but it helped me be honest with myself and figure out what I really want out of a career and my life. Having heart-to-heart talks about my doubts with the vets I worked with was also very rewarding and enlightening.

This forum is meant to educate, not just to sell the field and dish out more propaganda that everyone is bombarded with already. I've seen a lot of harsh truths dropped on here and a lot of people recommending folks think twice about make certain decisions, but I've rarely seen someone outright say, "Don't go to vet school."
 
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As a small testament to the significant influence this forum has had in my pre-vet life, here is one of my earliest posts on SDN:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/when-a-good-student-goes-sour.805010/

That was over five years ago. I got into and will be attending my IS this year. The advice and the raw honesty I read here as I prepared to apply to vet school was invaluable.

Thanks all - please know you are appreciated.
 
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My personal input, seeing the advice and experiences from vets that have recently graduated and are currently dealing with the debt, and knowing that it'll only get worse as the years pass was extremely helpful. Vet school has been a dream of mine since elementary school, but once I went through two rejections from my IS and had a very expensive OOS acceptance in my hand, I had to take a very hard look at what I wanted from my future. And the debt load was just too much. I want to buy a house, I want to be debt free. And I would have to willingly put those other dreams on the backburner until I knocked down that school debt, which would take decades.

Vet school was my dream, but it's not my only dream. I can have a very fulfilling career elsewhere, and fulfill my other dreams.
 
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As a small testament to the significant influence this forum has had in my pre-vet life, here is one of my earliest posts on SDN:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/when-a-good-student-goes-sour.805010/

That was over five years ago. I got into and will be attending my IS this year. The advice and the raw honesty I read here as I prepared to apply to vet school was invaluable.

Thanks all - please know you are appreciated.
You were so filled with hopes and dreams. But then reality came in.

Also I love that title "when a good student goes sour".


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Really wish I had discovered/joined this site back when I started undergrad. If I had gotten the same advice back then that so many other pre-vets here have, who knows how much better off I'd be now. Hindsight aside though, I've still gleaned so much valuable advice and information from here. I've never once seen anyone (on this site) straight up discourage someone from this path--only provide necessary realism. While there are definitely the occasional vet/pre-vet disagreements, it always ended up resolved and informative, so I haven't really seen any of this as just trying to be "depressing" or overly negative towards pre-vets/the field. You should continue posting here and add your perspective to the mix!
 
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As a small testament to the significant influence this forum has had in my pre-vet life, here is one of my earliest posts on SDN:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/when-a-good-student-goes-sour.805010/

That was over five years ago. I got into and will be attending my IS this year. The advice and the raw honesty I read here as I prepared to apply to vet school was invaluable.

Thanks all - please know you are appreciated.

Ceph this it too cute... When a good student goes sour :p
 
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This. My husband is the one that 'bought' our house even though both of our names are on it. They didn't even look at my debt (or my income). If you can afford to ignore your income, then you can also ignore your debt.
Do you guys file your taxes separately as well, or were you able to apply for a mortgage with just one person's name on it?
 
Do you guys file your taxes separately as well, or were you able to apply for a mortgage with just one person's name on it?
My husband and I file together, and that had no bearing on our ability to purchase two homes based on my credit only. Also, he is listed on the title but not on the loan itself.


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My husband and I file together, and that had no bearing on our ability to purchase two homes based on my credit only. Also, he is listed on the title but not on the loan itself.


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Yep, this. Except he is the one with the moneys.
 
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Yep, this. Except he is the one with the moneys.
lol, yeah, I'm in the same boat now. We bought our house back when I didn't think I'd ever get an opportunity to go back to school and he was finishing grad school.
Quitting my previous career while hubby's career advances definitely changes things.


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Which is kind of why I don't know how my boyfriend and I will ever get a home. I'm wondering if it really would be better for him to get one now (he is financially stable on his own) before we become a 'unit.' I haven't really looked into the ramifications my loans will have on a house yet. We're always told student debt is 'good' debt and that it's not supposed to prevent us from getting a home loan, but obviously not always true.

When we bought our house, we put my husband as the only person on the mortgage but both of us on the title. This meant that they didn't look at my student loans, but it also meant my income didn't count toward "buying power." Fortunately my husband does well enough for both of us and it wasn't an issue for him to qualify. (They did check my credit though, for some reason. Fortunately both of our credits are really good - not sure if it would have affected us if mine wasn't.)

Edit - I just realized TT's situation is the same as mine. Unnecessary story is unnecessary.
 
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When we bought our house, we put my husband as the only person on the mortgage but both of us on the title. This meant that they didn't look at my student loans, but it also meant my income didn't count toward "buying power." Fortunately my husband does well enough for both of us and it wasn't an issue for him to qualify. (They did check my credit though, for some reason. Fortunately both of our credits are really good - not sure if it would have affected us if mine wasn't.)

Edit - I just realized TT's situation is the same as mine. Unnecessary story is unnecessary.

:)
 
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A little off topic, and not meaning to start any political debates, but depending on who wins the presidency next year, do you think there's a possibility of the prospects of vet med looking up with the current discussion of making college more affordable?
 
A little off topic, and not meaning to start any political debates, but depending on who wins the presidency next year, do you think there's a possibility of the prospects of vet med looking up with the current discussion of making college more affordable?

I'd like to think so, but no one seems to give a crap about professional schools. College costs are the main focus. Which yes, would help people who come in with undergraduate debt. But you don't hear many politicians clamoring about lowering the expenses for medical or veterinary school.
 
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Yeah, I've heard next to nothing about professional schools or grad schools, and I've asked around.
 
Agreed with WTF. People like me coming in with ~$40k of debt under their belt already from undergrad? Sure, it'll help reduce that sort of thing (and, like I mentioned in my earlier post, that undergrad debt is turning what would have been a fairly workable future financial situation for me provided I found a decently paying job into one that is much less so, when interest/capitalization is accounted for, even with IS tuition), but ultimately the main issue is the cost of vet school, not the cost of college. And, as far as I am aware, curtailing the latter seems to be what politicians are most interested in doing.
 
A little off topic, and not meaning to start any political debates, but depending on who wins the presidency next year, do you think there's a possibility of the prospects of vet med looking up with the current discussion of making college more affordable?

Most of the discussion is about state-run undergraduate programs, so I'm doubtful this will actually happen. My guess is that it is assumed that people who pursue professional or other higher degrees will be subsidized (via grants) or are more likely to make enough income to comfortably pay off the debt, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that one.
 
Agreed with WTF. People like me coming in with ~$40k of debt under their belt already from undergrad? Sure, it'll help reduce that sort of thing (and, like I mentioned in my earlier post, that undergrad debt is turning what would have been a fairly workable future financial situation for me provided I found a decently paying job into one that is much less so, when interest/capitalization is accounted for, even with IS tuition), but ultimately the main issue is the cost of vet school, not the cost of college. And, as far as I am aware, curtailing the latter seems to be what politicians are most interested in doing.
While I do care deeply about out tuition problems getting addressed, the majority of Americans will not attend professional school. There's no real push for politicians to address it. Plus, plenty of people are under the impression that vets make just as much as doctors, if not more. My own orthopedic surgeon said "Wow, a zoo vet must make a couple hundred thousand dollars!" or something like that.
 
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While I do care deeply about out tuition problems getting addressed, the majority of Americans will not attend professional school. There's no real push for politicians to address it. Plus, plenty of people are under the impression that vets make just as much as doctors, if not more. My own orthopedic surgeon said "Wow, a zoo vet must make a couple hundred thousand dollars!" or something like that.
Oh, no, I completely agree that there is little reason (at least in the eyes of the general public) for professional school costs to be addressed, especially when, as you said, most are under the impression that vets are banking it. :) I was just lamenting the fact that, unfortunately, it is so unlikely to be resolved. I think that it really is an issue that only those within the profession actually fully grasp.
 
A little off topic, and not meaning to start any political debates, but depending on who wins the presidency next year, do you think there's a possibility of the prospects of vet med looking up with the current discussion of making college more affordable?
My thought process here is that things won't become worse under these people in terms of payback of loans, and hopefully payback will become a bit better. I don't think that costs of schooling will magically lower however.
 
I would like to reiterate what others have said: go to a cheap undergrad! I graduated with >90k debt from undergrad because I didn't expect to want to go to vet school. Cost was the absolute last thing on my mind, and I would really like to kick my past self in the butt. However I am grateful I've had the chance to live like I expect to live for the next 4+ years if I get into vet school because it has been good for me to know that I can do it. My undergrad debt will mostly be gone by the time I graduate with more debt o_O so I'm grateful for that. Mostly I'm grateful for my husband who will be paying for my undergrad debt and living expenses in vet school! I would love to have an IS school to keep the costs down there, but I think the main problem isn't paying back the debt, it's educating people about the debt beforehand, so it can be mitigated. Things like going to the IS school if that's an option. I'm considering moving so that I have an IS school. Going to a cheaper undergrad (seriously I wish I did). I'm not saying that people are taking out money they don't need, but I'm saying that this forum educates people beforehand, and that is imperative to lowering debt.
 
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