Ask me anything: SDN oldbie and dental grad edition

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lemoncurry

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By request, I have started this thread for anyone to ask questions.

I graduated in 2012 from Loma Linda as a non-SDA student. I immediately moved to Vermont and have been here ever since.

My first job is also my current job, at an FQHC (Federally Qualified Health Center), which are commonly referred to as community clinics.

I also took a 2 year hiatus working for a very popular corporate dental chain before returning to the FQHC.

I was 30 when I started dental school and was married with 3 kids already.

ask away!

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Thank you for creating this AMA, sir!

A few questions I have:

With Respect to FQHCs
1) What do you like about working at a FQHC?
2) What do you dislike about working at a FQHC?
3) What is your scope of practice (and how many of each procedure do you do daily, on average)?
4) How many patients do you see each day/how many ops do you work out of at the same time?
5) How did you find your position?
6) FQHCs tend to advertise loan repayment as a major benefit- Is loan repayment drying up, in your opinion?
7) What compensation range can a PGY-1 trained dentist expect in his first year at an FQHC? How about 5-10 years in?
8) Do you have any interest in going into private practice, or do you plan to stick with FQHCs?

With Respect to Corporate
1) What did you like about corporate? What did you dislike?
2) Would you recommend corporate for building up speed?
 
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dang, that's a lot of questions. I won't be able to answer them all at once but I will do my best... starting tomorrow :)
 
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dang, that's a lot of questions. I won't be able to answer them all at once but I will do my best... starting tomorrow :)

Sorry!! and thank you so much :) I really appreciate it.
 
1)How much debt did you leave school with? How much debt is left to repay? How has the process of debt reduction been(salary, lifestyle, stress)?
1.5) We hear from staff at private dental schools that the debt is "doable", as someone who has graduated and been out for a few years what is your take?
2) Why did you leave for corporate?
3) Why did you return to your first gig?
4) This one is more curiosity than dental related question; Why did you choose Vermont?

I greatly appreciate your time and responses as we rely on people who have been there before to know what our path will be like!
 
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How was Loma Linda like? I've worked with a few dentists trained there and they all were exceptional docs. Why did you go there if you were not SDA?
 
Thank you for being willing to share your perspective and insights into the field, @lemoncurry.

For you or anyone else familiar with FQHC's:

Are dentists who work there at a financial disadvantage if they sign on without any loans to be forgiven? If they are paid the same as loan-holding dentists, without the significant loan-forgiveness bonus from employment at the site, I would think that would suggest that employment for non-loan-carrying dentists at FQHC's would result in a substantial pay cut compared to those dentists who have loans. Does that seem accurate?
 
1) What do you like about working at a FQHC?
The things I like the best are that I work 4 days a week, have full benefits, no management headaches. I also really love being such a vital resource for so many patients who do not have private insurance or any insurance, with so few providers accepting Medicaid.
2) What do you dislike about working at a FQHC?
While I do use quality materials, I don't have, say, a soft tissue laser, nor am I likely to see a CEREC or something like that any time soon (although my CEO is open to the idea if it makes financial sense). Basically, we do bread and butter stuff and nothing overly fancy, which is limiting sometimes. I also wish I had a bit more leeway with my schedule in the sense that I can't get any time off without way advance notice, which makes my kids' school activities difficult to attend.
3) What is your scope of practice (and how many of each procedure do you do daily, on average)?
We are a general dentistry office. We see all ages and do pretty much anything but major OS or implant placement. We don't do general anesthesia so we are limited in treatment of young children.

My day generally sees a bunch of fillings and extractions, with a crown and/or RCT thrown in. I do plenty of dentures and there are always emergency patients who need to be seen. We also have 3 hygienists, so there are hygiene exams throughout the day.
4) How many patients do you see each day/how many ops do you work out of at the same time?
I work out of a main column with a side book column for minor procedures/exams. Due to staffing issues, we have blocked the second column for today and the near future. Today I have 12 patients in my schedule, not including hygiene exams. This is about average for me. Some days might get up to 20-22 including hygiene. Right now I have 3 operatories that are "mine." Typically I do not have more than one patient in a chair unless it is a minor procedure or limited exam. This was not the case in corporate, where I could have 6 patients seated at one time

Today I have 5 exts, 3 fillings, 1 crown, 1 exam, 2 denture steps.
5) How did you find your position?
Someone in the class above me got hired here before she graduated and told me about it and I kept pestering about it.
6) FQHCs tend to advertise loan repayment as a major benefit- Is loan repayment drying up, in your opinion?
I honestly have no idea if it is drying up, but I do know that my state made the requirements for getting LRP a bit stricter (2 years commitment instead of 1, for example).
7) What compensation range can a PGY-1 trained dentist expect in his first year at an FQHC? How about 5-10 years in?
Salary is obviously affected by a lot of factors, but I would expect somewhere between 125-150k to start. My contract, for example, has a guaranteed amount for the first year, and then after that it is a percentage of production (based on an RVU figure for the procedure, not actual collections or billings). It is not impossible to make in excess of 200 or even 300k depending on your output and contract terms. The upper classwoman who got me the job here was making over 300k at one point, I was told.
8) Do you have any interest in going into private practice, or do you plan to stick with FQHCs?
For the foreseeable future, I'm going to stay in PH. There is a local dentist whom I have befriended who is ready to retire and really wants me to take over his practice, but I don't think I want the headaches right now.

1) What did you like about corporate? What did you dislike?
I liked the people I worked with. I liked having full benefits. I liked that I learned a lot and got faster. I disliked the long hours, weekends (once or twice a month), inflexibility of schedule, limited vacation time, very busy patient schedule, patient complaints, corporate BS.
2) Would you recommend corporate for building up speed?
In my case, I was at the FQHC for a year right out of school and I built up my speed after about 6 months. I had a fair amount of autonomy and got to figure out how I liked to do dentistry. Corporate kicked everything into high gear. I had to learn how to work out of 3-6 operatories at a time, had to learn time management, had to learn to make quick decisions while still upholding my ethical values. I personally do not think that anyone should go into corporate straight out of dental school. Maybe out of GPR, but not fresh out of school. Corporate is really not a nurturing environment for a baby dentist, but for someone with some experience, it can take you to another level.
 
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1)How much debt did you leave school with? How much debt is left to repay? How has the process of debt reduction been(salary, lifestyle, stress)?
1.5) We hear from staff at private dental schools that the debt is "doable", as someone who has graduated and been out for a few years what is your take?
Dang, straight for the jugular! I took out the maximum in loans due to my family size, which came to about 100k a year. So I graduated with 400K from dental school loans plus my undergrad loans. How much is left? pretty much all of it, because I am not very good at managing money. Basically, I am an example of what not to do when it comes to repaying your loans! But even with a minimal amount of effort, it can be easily doable, IMO. If you start buying a bunch of stuff and get locked into monthly payments and that sort of thing, then you will struggle. If you live modestly and make your old car last longer, you will do very well in repayment. Again, I am probably the last person to ask for advice about loan repayment.
2) Why did you leave for corporate?
It boiled down to conflict. I'll leave it at that.
3) Why did you return to your first gig?
The opportunity arose to return (sans the conflict which caused me to leave) and I was ready to leave the corporate mill. I jumped at the opportunity for an easier schedule, fewer days, and more money.
4) This one is more curiosity than dental related question; Why did you choose Vermont?
The job I got started me at 150k with full benefits. There's no way I could have found anything close to that in SoCal. I checked out the area and it seemed to be a good fit for my family, plus they paid for moving expenses. I love it here! It is beautiful and I love the small town environment. The leaves are just starting to change and it's going to be amazing.
 
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How was Loma Linda like? I've worked with a few dentists trained there and they all were exceptional docs. Why did you go there if you were not SDA?
The short answer why I went there is because: 1)I lived in Loma Linda, and 2) they were the only ones to offer me an actual seat. Worked out well.
LLU was not perfect, but it was really really good. It was rare to find someone there who was not totally caring and helpful. I felt very prepared to practice dentistry when I left, and they instilled a strong service mentality which is serving me well here.
 
@lemoncurry ,

Thank you so much for these incredibly detailed and thorough responses. I'm grateful to you for taking the time out of your schedule to share what it's like to be in public health with us!

My day generally sees a bunch of fillings and extractions, with a crown and/or RCT thrown in. I do plenty of dentures

^Wow, this surprised me! I was under the impression that CHCs generally only did fillings/extractions. I didn't know that you get to do crowns and RCTs (and that too daily)!

It is not impossible to make in excess of 200 or even 300k depending on your output and contract terms. The upper classwoman who got me the job here was making over 300k at one point, I was told.

^This surprised me as well- I had heard there was a ceiling around 160K before. Congratulations to your classmate! She did very well for herself.

So I graduated with 400K from dental school loans plus my undergrad loans. How much is left? pretty much all of it, because I am not very good at managing money. Basically, I am an example of what not to do when it comes to repaying your loans!

Let me see if I can do this math correctly.
You started DS at age 30.
You graduated at 34.
You are currently 39.
You spent 2 years in corp.

That means you have 3 years of experience in PH? Are you thinking about going for PSLF in seven more years and getting all 400K+ wiped out w/o a tax bomb?
 
Thank you for being willing to share your perspective and insights into the field, @lemoncurry.

For you or anyone else familiar with FQHC's:

Are dentists who work there at a financial disadvantage if they sign on without any loans to be forgiven? If they are paid the same as loan-holding dentists, without the significant loan-forgiveness bonus from employment at the site, I would think that would suggest that employment for non-loan-carrying dentists at FQHC's would result in a substantial pay cut compared to those dentists who have loans. Does that seem accurate?
I can only speak for my office, but the way it works is that the LRP is done through the state or feds, and my company will match the funds if I am awarded them. LRP is not automatic and I have to apply for it and hope I get accepted. My student loans were never taken into consideration when I was applying for the job, nor has my salary been adjusted because of the amount of loans that I hold.
 
@lemoncurry ,

Let me see if I can do this math correctly.
You started DS at age 30.
You graduated at 34.
You are currently 39.
You spent 2 years in corp.

That means you have 3 years of experience in PH? Are you thinking about going for PSLF in seven more years and getting all 400K+ wiped out w/o a tax bomb?
Close, I have a total of 2 years in PH. In order to qualify for the PSLF, you have to make 10 years' worth of qualifying payments. As I mentioned, I am the last person to be asking questions about loan repayment! I may do it but I just don't think it is possible that I could be that diligent for 10 straight years. I plan to stay in PH and get as much LRP as I can.
 
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Vermont is one of the states to have passed a bill creating the dental therapist position. Have you, or do you expect to come across them in your CHC soon?
 
Vermont is one of the states to have passed a bill creating the dental therapist position. Have you, or do you expect to come across them in your CHC soon?
I know my CEO is usually willing to experiment with such things but we have no definite plans to bring anyone aboard at this time. However, if it means more patients could be seen, and the dental therapist is someone under my direct supervision (and not in some satellite office), then I'm willing to try it out.
 
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regarding FQHCs, sometimes I feel like the perception of them is something like this:
070717-BeijingSlum-031.jpg

when you're more likely to find this:
modern-dental-office-with-chair-and-xray-picture-id182515865
 
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I know my CEO is usually willing to experiment with such things but we have no definite plans to bring anyone aboard at this time. However, if it means more patients could be seen, and the dental therapist is someone under my direct supervision (and not in some satellite office), then I'm willing to try it out.

Just out of curiosity, do all dental thrapist need supervision of a dentist? Or can they just open up their own practice and serve the community? I've heard about these dental therapist recently but don't know too much about what their boundaries are. Thanks!
 
It depends on the state regulations, but as far as i know, they do need to have a supervising dentist. Whether that means direct supervision or indirect, I'm not sure.
 
I know you said that your friend/upperclassman guided you into this job, but can you share with us some of the things you consider when evaluating a potential CHC/employer?

What do you ask yourself, the supervisor, and the staff/other dentists when you're trying to decide if a certain place is a good fit for you or not?
 
the factors I looked at included:
compensation (obviously) - if it's not a guaranteed salary then what do they use to calculate it? Production >>>> collections

Is the office digital? I don't do film xrays.

What kind of materials do they use? I'm sure partly due to the fact that a school-mate was the dental director there, we mostly used materials that I had already used in school and were good quality. We weren't using generic Henry Schein composite, burs, and such.

What was the office like? I was expecting an older facility but was blown over at how modern and well appointed it was. Not luxurious, but not cheap looking.

What is the staff like? you can only glean so much from an interview, but first impressions are important.

Are they willing to offer a relocation package? Pay for moving expenses? In my case, they did, basically cutting me a big check.

How well do they treat you for the interview? Do they expect to pay your travel and lodging expenses? I had already booked my ticket when I found out that the company was planning on taking care of all of that for me. They reimbursed my ticket cost and paid for everything else on their dime.

How many patients would I see a day? Would they be patient while I worked on my speed? Will I be expected to see X number of patients a day? If they are looking for you to see 25-30 a day, you're going to burn out fast.

What are the benefits? How much time off? Paid time off for CE? Allowance for CE? How much? Will they reimburse my license fees and such? Health insurance and retirement?

Loan repayment- will they match funds from the state or feds? Will it affect your compensation?

Non-compete clauses. I think it would be ridiculous for an FQHC to put one in your contract.

What is the area like? How are the schools? churches? Weather?

I didn't really ask anything about patient population because I expect to see some of the worst cases that exist.


That's all I got for now.
 
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Thanks for your detailed responses, @lemoncurry. This thread is an excellent perspective on community health dentistry, and dentistry in general, and I sincerely appreciate your generosity.
 
I do want to caution that my situation is not going to be indicative of every FQHC. It's possible that I hit the jackpot with this job. There definitely will be clinics that you wouldn't want to work at, unfortunately, which is sad because the need is so great.
 
the factors I looked at included:
compensation (obviously) - if it's not a guaranteed salary then what do they use to calculate it? Production >>>> collections

Is the office digital? I don't do film xrays.

What kind of materials do they use? I'm sure partly due to the fact that a school-mate was the dental director there, we mostly used materials that I had already used in school and were good quality. We weren't using generic Henry Schein composite, burs, and such.

What was the office like? I was expecting an older facility but was blown over at how modern and well appointed it was. Not luxurious, but not cheap looking.

What is the staff like? you can only glean so much from an interview, but first impressions are important.

Are they willing to offer a relocation package? Pay for moving expenses? In my case, they did, basically cutting me a big check.

How well do they treat you for the interview? Do they expect to pay your travel and lodging expenses? I had already booked my ticket when I found out that the company was planning on taking care of all of that for me. They reimbursed my ticket cost and paid for everything else on their dime.

How many patients would I see a day? Would they be patient while I worked on my speed? Will I be expected to see X number of patients a day? If they are looking for you to see 25-30 a day, you're going to burn out fast.

What are the benefits? How much time off? Paid time off for CE? Allowance for CE? How much? Will they reimburse my license fees and such? Health insurance and retirement?

Loan repayment- will they match funds from the state or feds? Will it affect your compensation?

Non-compete clauses. I think it would be ridiculous for an FQHC to put one in your contract.

What is the area like? How are the schools? churches? Weather?

I didn't really ask anything about patient population because I expect to see some of the worst cases that exist.


That's all I got for now.
I haven't ever heard of working for a place like this, but it sounds great from your perspective.
 
[Also, since my next question was "what prompted you to enter dental school at 30," I decided to use the search function. ]

Here's @lemoncurry from 2006 (Thank you for sharing this story then, and for leaving the response on the forums for us to continue to learn from):

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/any-non-trad-pre-dents-out-there.312239/#post-4065753
I'll be 30 when I start dental school (hopefully!) in 2007. I'm married and have two kids. my first stint at college right after high school, i thought first that i would be an engineer, but then i took a physics course my first semester and got totally turned off. Then i tried marketing, but that was just too boring, and then i briefly looked into computer science. what i really enjoyed during that time was acting in plays and singing in choirs. kinda odd since i am very much a left brained person.

left college because i mismanaged my funds and i just didn't have the motivation. delivered pizzas for a bit and then got my first office job as a data entry person, then moved up to QA, and after being at the company for 2 years, i got a job in the IT dept. I was completely self taught when it came to computers, so i thought i had it made. i moved out to california and was making 10 grand more than i was in virginia, but after 9/11, i slowly started coming to the realization that i couldn't live on this career. I was laid off two jobs within a 4 month span, and each new time i was hired, it was for less money. By this time, i started having a fambly, so i had to reevaluate.

the funny thing is, and i would never mention this on my personal statement, is that i came to the decision of dentistry largely in part due to watching so much M*A*S*H on TV while i was unemployed. I couldn't afford anything more than basic cable, and that was the only show i could stand to watch. watching them do the doctor thing opened my mind more toward the health care industry, which i had rejected outright prior to this. after comparing possible professions in health care, i decided dentistry had the right combination of everything i wanted in a profession. I'm hoping i can specialize in ortho, but we shall see what happens.

great to hear all these stories! best of luck to all of you, especially those with families who are also working full time! i'm lucky because my in-laws are giving me and my family housing and whatnot, so i don't have to work, but i do take out the maximum student loans.

p.s. anyone know anything about how adcoms look at performance from an earlier stint at college that had little or nothing to do with you working toward dental school? I had a 3.17 for my first two years of college, and for the last two, i have over a 3.8, averaging out to a 3.57 or so (so far). I've got too many B's and C's in my first two years, which makes me a bit uncomfortable, but i have a lot of A's in my last two years. hopefully they can take that into consideration.

It's fantastic to see your hard work pay off for you, lemoncurry, and also wonderful that you seem to be very satisfied in your current career pursuits :)

I thought this was also a great point, also by lemoncurry, in 2008:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...what-career-i-want-to-do.546166/#post-6937661
The thing about a career is that you are not shackled to it for the rest of your life. Sure, it would be a waste for someone to do 4 years of med/dent school and then decided not to be a doctor, but the fact is that you are free to change your career whenever you want (unless you're from some country that doesn't allow it). I was in computers for years before I decided to go back to school, get a Bio degree and go to dental school. When I first went to college, i was a Marketing major. I just wanted to get a degree. I left after 2 years and worked for 7 before going back.

My point is that you can change your mind and people aren't going to string you up by your thumbs.

Thanks, again, for being an amazing part of SDN, lemoncurry. I am very grateful for the opportunity to learn from what you have been willing to share with the rest of us.
 
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You are doing exactly what I want to be doing! I would love to work at a FQHC instead of at a corporate office or even owning my own practice. I'm an older future applicant and I appreciate seeing your story from before till now. Although I'll be 36 when I start dental school :oops: , I like what you said about careers in your previous post though and completely agree. I'm ready for a change.

How was your dental school experience as a slightly older student?
How was applying for jobs as a slightly older brand new dental school graduate? Or did it not make a difference?
How was being a parent during dental school? (My kids will be 8 and 2.5 when I start...)
Is it challenging to pursue a FQHC job? Please forgive my ignorance on this, but I don't know enough about it.
Is there any pressure for production at an FQHC? In my mind an FQHC is the antithesis of corporate, has that been the case in your experience?

I can't believe I'll be 40 when I graduate (assuming I get into a school on my first try), but it is what it is. I'm not focused on making a ton of money - I just want to help make a comfortable living for my family while doing something I enjoy and contributing to society. I'm sure I'll come up with more questions, I'm really glad I caught this thread!
 
I would like to know how you balanced school and kids also!
And how hard was it to maintain a healthy marriage? I've had semesters where I'm gone a bit studying; however, I imagine dental school will be like 4 years of that...ha
 
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And how hard was it to maintain a healthy marriage? I've had semesters where I'm gone a bit studying; however, I imagine dental school will be like 4 years of that...ha
Good question, I've wondered the same thing. While I love that my husband can step up when I've been swamped studying for an exam here or there during my pre-reqs, I'm worried that it will be constant in D school and that I'll feel like I'm abandoning my family for four years...
 
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Looking back, it doesn't seem like it was that difficult to manage things, but I'm probably just remembering the good stuff. My wife was just amazing. Was it easy? heck no. Did I get interrupted from studying to handle diapers and other kid issues? Absolutely. Did I get accused of spending my studying time goofing off? Guilty.

I just recommend that you and your spouse talk frequently about what the demands on your time will be. If you both keep your eyes on the prize, you should make it through just fine. Having said that, it was sad to see a number of my classmates go through divorces during school.

Being an older student gave me a better perspective on things and better motivation to succeed. I think adcoms recognize that. I was not the oldest one in my class, for sure. I work with another dentist here who was in his 40's when he went to dental school.

As far as interviewing for the job, this one was the only one I interviewed for and it was the only one I wanted. Having had experience with job interviews, I wasn't uncomfortable, plus the other dentist was a friend of mine.

No real pressure for production, but we certainly always try to keep a full schedule. Thankfully, my front office staff is very diligent about filling the gaps.

To find FQHC jobs, I would first go to the NHSC site (google it) and there should be a link to the jobs page. I don't know how well it works but that is a good place to start. Or you could simply search FQHC in your state and explore the websites individually. BTW, if you have any interest in working at an FQHC, you should REALLY consider applying for the NHSC scholarship. In exchange for a full ride, you spend about 4 years working at an fqhc type site. 4 years is nothing!
 
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Did I get accused of spending my studying time goofing off? Guilty.
:)

Thanks for the advice. While I have definitely considered the NHSC scholarship, I've read it's become incredibly competitive. Not sure it's worth the time given my unfortunate undergrad GPA from 10+ years ago.
 
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- How is the atmosphere at LLU? Is it competitive?
- How do the rankings work?
- How have the graduates fared with specialties?
- Is LLU brand strong in CA, and does it help with networking/getting jobs?
- I heard that some students had trouble graduating on time and stayed for one more year. Do you know anything about that? Is it competency based now?
- Did you have any trouble finding patients?
- What was the worst thing about LLU? What was the best thing about it?
- Currently, is it hard to get a job at a FQHC in CA?

Sorry about all the questions. I know this is an old thread, but Loma Linda AMAs are hard to come by here. Thank you for your help in advance.
 
- How is the atmosphere at LLU? Is it competitive?
I would not call it that. I don't recall seeing cutthroat behavior there.

- How do the rankings work?
I have no idea and it has probably changed more than once since I left

- How have the graduates fared with specialties?
I don't know of anyone from my class who currently wants to specialize but is unable to.

- Is LLU brand strong in CA, and does it help with networking/getting jobs?
I'd say it is stronger in SoCal, but the SDA connections range all over. I would think it helps if you're going to work for another LLU grad.

- I heard that some students had trouble graduating on time and stayed for one more year. Do you know anything about that? Is it competency based now?
It was points and competency based when I was there. I had to stay until August to finish up my requirements. There will always be some people who need an extra year or maybe more to finish for whatever reason. I know the school is trying very hard to have a good curriculum that will allow people to graduate on time.

- Did you have any trouble finding patients?
I didn't, really. The class after me has some issues but I think those have been resolved. I have no idea what it is like now.

- What was the worst thing about LLU? What was the best thing about it?
Worst thing was the lack of meat on campus. Best thing was how service oriented it was.

- Currently, is it hard to get a job at a FQHC in CA?
I have no idea, sorry.
 
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