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MD physician, not old but not exactly young, found myself in the curious world of medical education. My biggest areas of interest are curriculum design/renewal and admissions; I teach a fair amount and have picked up a lot of tangential information on the way.

This time of year is a lull, so I am starting an AMA thread. Could be a terrible idea, but let's see how it goes.

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MD physician, not old but not exactly young, found myself in the curious world of medical education. My biggest areas of interest are curriculum design/renewal and admissions; I teach a fair amount and have picked up a lot of tangential information on the way.

This time of year is a lull, so I am starting an AMA thread. Could be a terrible idea, but let's see how it goes.
1) Are PBLs working?
2) What do you think is lacking in most medical school education these days? 1) Clinical Skills 2) Science knowledge 3) Time for community involvement 4) Etc
3) Why do you think people feel unprepared for residency their first year in? Any good solutions to the problem you've seen in some schools?
 
1) Are PBLs working?
2) What do you think is lacking in most medical school education these days? 1) Clinical Skills 2) Science knowledge 3) Time for community involvement 4) Etc
3) Why do you think people feel unprepared for residency their first year in? Any good solutions to the problem you've seen in some schools?

1) I was skeptical of PBL, having being educated in a traditional lecture-based curriculum, but this approach has convinced me of its worth. About the only pure PBL school left in the country is SIU, everyone else uses it as one tool of many. Not every student likes it, but you cannot please everyone. And in the last quarter of each semester nobody is happy with anything.

2) Critical thinking skills still lack, and the ability to answer your own questions through self-directed research.

3) People feel unprepared because they have never shouldered that level of responsibility before. One good approach is to not go on de facto vacation in the second half of M4. Take some challenging sub-I's and work your tail off.
 
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How did you get into the more administrative side of medical education? I know a few programs are now offering fellowships in medical education after residency, but as someone involved from the student side and interested in continuing as a physician, I'm just curious how you get to that point.
 
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1) What is your favorite thing about teaching medical students?
2) What is your least favorite thing about teaching medical students?
3) What is one quirk about the admissions process and its logistics, from an inside perspective, that most applicants aren't aware of?
4) What is your favorite non-medical, non academic interest outside of work?
 
How did you get into the more administrative side of medical education? I know a few programs are now offering fellowships in medical education after residency, but as someone involved from the student side and interested in continuing as a physician, I'm just curious how you get to that point.

Serendipity. I enjoyed the teaching side and happened to be in the right place at the right time when an opening occurred. I was never on a clinical-educator track, although those are becoming more common.
 
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1) What is your favorite thing about teaching medical students?
2) What is your least favorite thing about teaching medical students?
3) What is one quirk about the admissions process and its logistics, from an inside perspective, that most applicants aren't aware of?
4) What is your favorite non-medical, non academic interest outside of work?

1) The questions I get asked. The good ones really make me think and reevaluate my knowledge of a given subject. It is also really enjoyable to see students progress from clueless to competent. Makes me feel like I've done something (regardless of the truth).
2) "Is this going to be on the test?"
3) While the admissions process is logical at a system-wide level, I don't think people grasp how utterly capricious it can be within an individual school.
4) Knitting three dimensional human skulls.
 
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1.) What can an interviewee do to impress you?
2.) If you had the power to change anything about the med school admissions process, what would it be?
3.) Do you think there is anything unfair about the current way admissions or interviews are done?
4.) What are traits of your most successful students?
 
How does the admissions process work post-interview at a school for an applicant? Do they assemble that applicant's interviewers, listen to their feedback, and then discuss the applicant and then vote on the applicant? I've always been curious how this process works.

Thanks for taking the time out to answer questions!
 
1.) What can an interviewee do to impress you?
2.) If you had the power to change anything about the med school admissions process, what would it be?
3.) Do you think there is anything unfair about the current way admissions or interviews are done?
4.) What are traits of your most successful students?

1) I stopped being impressed by interviews awhile ago. The best you can do is convince me that you're probably not autistic or a psychopath.
2) Make Step 1 pass/fail and decouple board passage rates from residency program evaluations. This would facilitate medical schools choosing applicants they want rather than applicants they need.
3) Depends on the school. Some are very proactive about training and standardizing their interviewers. Those are relatively fair. The rest are basically a crapshoot.
4) Nice, inquisitive, nice, punctual, nice, strong work ethic, nice, organized, and nice. By nice I mean nicer than me, which isn't very difficult.
 
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How does the admissions process work post-interview at a school for an applicant? Do they assemble that applicant's interviewers, listen to their feedback, and then discuss the applicant and then vote on the applicant? I've always been curious how this process works.

Thanks for taking the time out to answer questions!

Every school is different in some regard, but what you described is essentially how I have seen it done. Get data, talk about it, vote. What could be simpler?
 
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Dear Diary, I learned that I am not impressive today... :(

In all seriousness, this reminds me of a previous thread about selling oneself during the interview. Strangely, it calms me down a bit.
I don't have to be the most impressive candidate; I just have to convince adcom that I am better than NotASerialKiller
1) I stopped being impressed by interviews awhile ago. The best you can do is convince me that you're probably not autistic or a psychopath.
 
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** What are some common mistakes your students make ? Something that despite selectivity, falls through the cracks ever year ?
** Is the question "why you want to be a physician" given as much weight as some may have it, or is it another sanity/autism verbal test ?
** what can you make of the rising standards and number of applicants, is there a plateau to come in the near future, or is it cherry-picking an increasingly sharper process ?

~ thank you for your time
 
** What are some common mistakes your students make ? Something that despite selectivity, falls through the cracks ever year ?
** Is the question "why you want to be a physician" given as much weight as some may have it, or is it another sanity/autism verbal test ?
** what can you make of the rising standards and number of applicants, is there a plateau to come in the near future, or is it cherry-picking an increasingly sharper process ?

~ thank you for your time
Do you play Neopets :oops:
 
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Do you find a great deal of agreement between various adcom members about what makes a strong applicant? Or do you find there is occasional disagreement?

(Background: I've heard some adcom members LOVE to see medical mission trips, while others hate to see them. My sample size is incredibly small, though, and I'm curious what your experience is.)
 
** What are some common mistakes your students make ? Something that despite selectivity, falls through the cracks ever year ?
** Is the question "why you want to be a physician" given as much weight as some may have it, or is it another sanity/autism verbal test ?
** what can you make of the rising standards and number of applicants, is there a plateau to come in the near future, or is it cherry-picking an increasingly sharper process ?

~ thank you for your time

**There always seem to be some smart students who struggle more than they should. A psychologist might have a more nuanced take on this, but I see them using study techniques that are more comfortable than efficient, not organizing their time well, and getting hung up on what their classmates are doing. All bad ideas.
**I have never asked that question, although I have worked with a couple who do routinely use it. I wouldn't say it's given undue weight, but I have heard some terrible answers recounted. Its best use may be in detecting applicants whose main reason for applying to medical school is parental pressure.
**The pool has enlarged, but I don't think the quality of the top 20,000 has changed much. Average MCAT scores have edged up improved prep materials, more time dedicated to studying, and an increasing propensity to retake. Adcoms have to apply some judgement to discern that the disadvantaged applicant with a 28 might be a great catch.

~You're welcome.
 
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Do you find a great deal of agreement between various adcom members about what makes a strong applicant? Or do you find there is occasional disagreement?

There is far more agreement than disagreement, but adcom members are human. They have their quirks and blind spots. Each tends to get hung up on some part of the application, be it the transcript, the MCAT, the ECs, the PS, or the LORs. But that's why it's a committee decision.
 
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What is the most successful study methods have you seen students use or you have used yourself .
 
What kind of school are you at? (public, private, top research, location)
What is the process by which IIs are given out at your school?
At the individual school level, you say the process can be outrageously capricious. Do you mean adcoms hating on certain aspects/types of applicants? Or adcoms gunning each other's opinions down? The world needs to know!!!!!!
How did you get involved with admissions? Do you apply? Get in bed (figuratively..or literally, your choice :smuggrin:) with other adcoms? Do they offer you based on leadership/other qualities you've demonstrated elsewhere?

fanksssssssssss
 
Is there $$$ to be made in medical academic administration?

I jest.

But actually though, most pre-meds only care about this. Probably med students too.
 
I'm curious about ad coms' take on the whole URM thing.
There seem to be polarized opinions about the evaluation of URMs in the Admissions process.
Is this also true in the ad com sphere? How exactly does URM status factor into different stages of the applicant review process (ie at what stage, in what way, and to what extent is URM status considered)?
 
Would you agree that (a) GPA and (b) MCAT are overrated in admissions, especially at top programs? I did very well with both, but I do think about a couple of people I know who took a hard major and course sequence in school and also have never been particularly good at standardized tests. Accordingly, their scores are about average for MD schools but are basically shut out from MD/PhD and high ranked MD programs, even though in my opinion they would be a far better academic physician than nearly anyone else I know (and their letters attest to that).

Or would you disagree? :)

I'd be curious to hear why either way.
 
. Adcoms have to apply some judgement to discern that the disadvantaged applicant with a 28 might be a great catch.

What do you mean by this?

Edit: Just wondering because I was labeled as Low SES and I'm afraid that this might hurt my chances. I've read that schools are iffy about applicants with low SES because they are "risky" and are more likely to be unsuccessful in med school. I hope this is not true.
 
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What is the most successful study methods have you seen students use or you have used yourself .

Get organized, set up a schedule, stick to it. This is your job, get up in the morning and get to work. Take a break every 30 minutes and change subject. Don't just read, quiz yourself. Get a study partner and quiz each other. Eat well six days a week, get some exercise, and don't feel guilty about getting enough sleep.
 
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What kind of school are you at? (public, private, top research, location)
What is the process by which IIs are given out at your school?
At the individual school level, you say the process can be outrageously capricious. Do you mean adcoms hating on certain aspects/types of applicants? Or adcoms gunning each other's opinions down? The world needs to know!!!!!!
How did you get involved with admissions? Do you apply? Get in bed (figuratively..or literally, your choice :smuggrin:) with other adcoms? Do they offer you based on leadership/other qualities you've demonstrated elsewhere?

Will not divulge current school, although I have more than a passing familiarity with both public and private institutions that run the gamut from research heavy to research light.
II's given out by standard process: admissions committee tells the screeners what it wants in future students (metrics, attributes, etc.), screeners go to work. There is some oversight and checks/balances to make ensure people aren't making horrible decisions.
By capricious I mean one's odds in committee can be strongly influenced by chance, as in who your interviewer is or just the general mood of the meeting.
Again, serendipity. At some institutions being an adcom is coveted, at others it is regarded as a form of punishment.
 
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Is there $$$ to be made in medical academic administration?

I jest.

But actually though, most pre-meds only care about this. Probably med students too.

The deans aren't exactly starving, but it takes talent, hard work, patience, and no small amount of luck to reach the upper rungs. If you just want to make $$$ you're better off in private practice.
 
I'm curious about ad coms' take on the whole URM thing.
There seem to be polarized opinions about the evaluation of URMs in the Admissions process.
Is this also true in the ad com sphere? How exactly does URM status factor into different stages of the applicant review process (ie at what stage, in what way, and to what extent is URM status considered)?

That is an extremely thorny question, but I will offer you my opinion (others might disagree). I believe how URMs are considered by a given school has a lot to do with the institutional goals and ethos. Not all URMs are created equal. For example, I have interviewed African American applicants whose parents are both doctors. I have interviewed applicants who are the children of affluent citizens of various African nations. And I have interviewed African Americans who were raised in single parent households right around the poverty line.

Statistically speaking, the former two groups are less likely to struggle in medical school than the third, but they are also less likely to practice in underserved areas. Some schools (i.e. more research and rankings-oriented places) don't seem to care much about differentiating between them, and are content to matriculate the highest performing URMs they can attract. Others are more mission driven, and will be more inclined to take calculated risks on lower-stat students that may require additional resources to finish. This is a rather loose over-generalization, mind you. Take it with a few grains of salt.

Of course everyone wants the URM applicant who embodies the American bootstrap ideal: born in a shed, raised on stale bread and contaminated drinking water, goes on to graduate magna cum laude from MIT with a 527 MCAT score. Alas, those don't come along every day.
 
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MD physician, not old but not exactly young, found myself in the curious world of medical education. My biggest areas of interest are curriculum design/renewal and admissions; I teach a fair amount and have picked up a lot of tangential information on the way.

This time of year is a lull, so I am starting an AMA thread. Could be a terrible idea, but let's see how it goes.
If you had a magic wand, how would you change medical education in the USA
 
Would you agree that (a) GPA and (b) MCAT are overrated in admissions, especially at top programs? I did very well with both, but I do think about a couple of people I know who took a hard major and course sequence in school and also have never been particularly good at standardized tests. Accordingly, their scores are about average for MD schools but are basically shut out from MD/PhD and high ranked MD programs, even though in my opinion they would be a far better academic physician than nearly anyone else I know (and their letters attest to that).

Or would you disagree? :)

I'd be curious to hear why either way.

Supply and demand being what it is, highly competitive programs can ask for, and get, complete packages: candidates who have pedigrees, pubs, and stats. Why should they lean down and take people with lower numbers when they don't have to?

If your friends are good, they can gain entrance to less prestigious programs and climb the ladder the old fashion way: good ideas, hard work, and schmoozing.
 
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What do you mean by this?

Edit: Just wondering because I was labeled as Low SES and I'm afraid that this might hurt my chances. I've read that schools are iffy about applicants with low SES because they are "risky" and are more likely to be unsuccessful in med school. I hope this is not true.

The buzzwords here are "distance traveled." A kid born with little money or support who graduates from college is, by some measures, more impressive than the affluent kid who attends private school and has an MCAT tutor.

Coming from low SES is usually a plus in the application process. The catch is that low SES applicants are more likely to have personal and/or family and/or financial troubles while in school. Depending on the specifics this might make an adcom hesitant.
 
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How do you react when you see an applicant who's suffered the death of a parent during college? Surely I imagine it doesn't make up for a weakness in any of the main application areas but does it have an effect on the committee members?
 
If you had a magic wand, how would you change medical education in the USA

The next big thing is going to be competency-based education, which I think holds great promise. I would like to see successful programs up and running ASAP so they can be emulated. Not sure what the unintended consequences will be.

I also think that a percentage of gross physician revenue should be set aside to make medical education free, up to a point. The average debt nowadays is ridiculous, and in a more perfect world the profession would step up and address the problem.
 
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Will not divulge current school, although I have more than a passing familiarity with both public and private institutions that run the gamut from research heavy to research light.
II's given out by standard process: admissions committee tells the screeners what it wants in future students (metrics, attributes, etc.), screeners go to work. There is some oversight and checks/balances to make ensure people aren't making horrible decisions.
By capricious I mean one's odds in committee can be strongly influenced by chance, as in who your interviewer is or just the general mood of the meeting.
Again, serendipity. At some institutions being an adcom is coveted, at others it is regarded as a form of punishment.

Can you elaborate on what these metrics might be and more importantly, how the various attributes/metrics might be evaluated? E.g. a mission-based school values community service, yet not all service is "equal" how is this addressed? I'm more curious about the assessment of "subjective" attributes (vs. "box-checking), such as maturity, resiliency, etc.
 
MD physician, not old but not exactly young, found myself in the curious world of medical education. My biggest areas of interest are curriculum design/renewal and admissions; I teach a fair amount and have picked up a lot of tangential information on the way.

This time of year is a lull, so I am starting an AMA thread. Could be a terrible idea, but let's see how it goes.

What is an approximate breakdown of your work (clinical responsibilities, classroom based teaching, administrative, etc)? What pressures do you feel are placed on you in your work environment (e.g. push out publications, meet deadlines for proposed curriculum reform, etc)? How are you reimbursed for your work (flat salary, salary dependent on certain performance measures, salary for academic work / productivity-based income for clinical work)? How much do you feel you have control of / input into what curriculum reform is actually carried out (e.g. whatever you want is put into place on one extreme, whatever you suggest is maybe skimmed and briefly considered by someone higher up on the other extreme)?

2) Make Step 1 pass/fail and decouple board passage rates from residency program evaluations. This would facilitate medical schools choosing applicants they want rather than applicants they need.

Lets step this back to the MCAT level for sake of discussion. Obviously you want to attract students who will be able to complete their medical education. Why not look at data retrospectively to do something like form a regression equation to determine likelihood of successful completion of med school based on factors like MCAT and GPA? Set a cutoff for "likelihood to complete med school", interview based on that, and have MCAT/GPA closed for review unless needed for a tiebreaker
 
What is an approximate breakdown of your work (clinical responsibilities, classroom based teaching, administrative, etc)? What pressures do you feel are placed on you in your work environment (e.g. push out publications, meet deadlines for proposed curriculum reform, etc)? How are you reimbursed for your work (flat salary, salary dependent on certain performance measures, salary for academic work / productivity-based income for clinical work)? How much do you feel you have control of / input into what curriculum reform is actually carried out (e.g. whatever you want is put into place on one extreme, whatever you suggest is maybe skimmed and briefly considered by someone higher up on the other extreme)?



Lets step this back to the MCAT level for sake of discussion. Obviously you want to attract students who will be able to complete their medical education. Why not look at data retrospectively to do something like form a regression equation to determine likelihood of successful completion of med school based on factors like MCAT and GPA? Set a cutoff for "likelihood to complete med school", interview based on that, and have MCAT/GPA closed for review unless needed for a tiebreaker

That might work for trads, or for a large percentage of the applicant population, but MCAT and GPA are affected by other factors which must be placed into context. I, for example, have a low GPA. And a high MCAT. There's a reason for why that is. I would likely not benefit from such a system, and yet-if I may be so bold-the very reason which explains my score discrepancy is precisely what equips me with (some of) the skills requisite in being a decent physician... I definitely think a holistic review is best. Then again, I'm biased...
 
MD physician, not old but not exactly young, found myself in the curious world of medical education. My biggest areas of interest are curriculum design/renewal and admissions; I teach a fair amount and have picked up a lot of tangential information on the way.

This time of year is a lull, so I am starting an AMA thread. Could be a terrible idea, but let's see how it goes.

Does the undergrad you go to matter for admissions?
 
What separates the students who pass their step 1 tests and those that don't pass?
 
How do you, personally, view an applicant with children? Are there specific circumstances where an applicant having children is seen as an advantage? What about a disadvantage?
 
Does the undergrad you go to matter for admissions?
Dude...you know the answer to this and all the caveats it comes with already

Plz this thread don't go down that hellhole. Pls
 
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1) Opinion on applicants with expunged misdemeanor/felony when they were under 18?
2) 3 best characteristic traits that an applicant should have?
3) Key to happiness?
 
How do you react when you see an applicant who's suffered the death of a parent during college? Surely I imagine it doesn't make up for a weakness in any of the main application areas but does it have an effect on the committee members?

Such circumstances can explain parts of an applicant's record, like a LOA from undergrad or a horrible semester. I haven't seen them generate what I would call pity.
 
Can you elaborate on what these metrics might be and more importantly, how the various attributes/metrics might be evaluated? E.g. a mission-based school values community service, yet not all service is "equal" how is this addressed? I'm more curious about the assessment of "subjective" attributes (vs. "box-checking), such as maturity, resiliency, etc.

Hmm, what does it take to be a great pianist? Playing the right notes at the right time.

Communing with an application and making a decision involves a lot of work by the frontal lobes. The buzzword (buzzacronym?) is EAM, which stands for Experiences, Attributes, and Metrics. Metrics are easy. You look at the demographic data, PS, and ECs to get a feel for experiences, and the LORs and ECs (and sometimes the PS) to get a feel for attributes. Embedded in everyone's AMCAS are patterns, and it takes some practice to see them.
 
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What is an approximate breakdown of your work (clinical responsibilities, classroom based teaching, administrative, etc)? What pressures do you feel are placed on you in your work environment (e.g. push out publications, meet deadlines for proposed curriculum reform, etc)? How are you reimbursed for your work (flat salary, salary dependent on certain performance measures, salary for academic work / productivity-based income for clinical work)?

Sorry, too personal.

Cytarabine said:
How much do you feel you have control of / input into what curriculum reform is actually carried out (e.g. whatever you want is put into place on one extreme, whatever you suggest is maybe skimmed and briefly considered by someone higher up on the other extreme)?

I have been fortunate to work in environments where the overarching learning objectives are delineated by people higher up the food chain, and the people in the classroom are given a lot of flexibility in deciding how to achieve them. Student feedback is helpful, but as long as the kids are passing the exams without causing civil unrest then everyone is satisfied.

Cytarabine said:
Lets step this back to the MCAT level for sake of discussion. Obviously you want to attract students who will be able to complete their medical education. Why not look at data retrospectively to do something like form a regression equation to determine likelihood of successful completion of med school based on factors like MCAT and GPA? Set a cutoff for "likelihood to complete med school", interview based on that, and have MCAT/GPA closed for review unless needed for a tiebreaker

This data (and more!) exists for a very large cohort: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf

The four-year completion rates for everyone with an MCAT >27 and a GPA >3.0 are about the same. Most schools want the flexibility to consider applicants with lower numbers, but they also don't want their class average to drop. Closed review processes have mostly been employed at high power schools where the biggest admissions problem excluding 3.9/38 sociopaths.
 
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