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omn said:
Hi, Frederica

I am one of these older US IMG's with 5-10 years of corporate work experience, some of it at three Fortune 100 companies, significant responsibility, major US city, etc..
I have had a small issue with Step 2 CK because I'm finding several topics tested in the exam weren't covered in as much detail in my undergraduate medical education.

So my question to yourself and/or your team would be if they can provide some insight on how a "late" application is viewed "as late", from a couple of different perspectives?

For example, clearly a day after Sept. 15th is viewed as late by whatever percentage of applicants apply during that first day.. (is that # public information?). For others, past the 21st of Sept. would be late; still others, past October 1st.

Clearly, it would seem that the majority of program deadline are October 31st or beyond, so I don't really see the disconnect -- and just trying to better understand, AS WE SAY IN THE CORPORATE WORLD, "expectations". I'm also not naive enough to see this "idea of lateness" as being on a continuum, and realize that different programs are different. It would be interesting to try better understand how a sampling of viewpoints might "see" this topic.

Alternatively, if everyone just agreed that October 1st was about as late as an application should be submitted, then why doesn't the ACGME just move all programs to October 1st and settle the issue ?! (But to be fair, I don't agree with that increasingly automated ERAS system, it seems to take power away from the PD (and the human being) and give it the computer processor, which can't be ideal.)

Lastly, I think or hope (only "hope" not "plan") that your program would find me -- as an applicant -- interesting, responsible and ready to perform, despite my not hoped for possible delay (of possibly 1 week) on the Step 2 CK. I am scheduled to have a score by the 15th at the moment. I can say that as an older medical graduate, the discrepancy (in the deadlines and the expectation) is very confusing.

- Dan
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Dan,
Every program does things differently. Some wait until Oct 1 or even later to review applications. Putting deadlines for reviews on programs takes away a program's autonomy.

My PD reviews every single application in our program and the larger residency program in our department. He will review applications up until a few weeks before our last round of interviews, which is usually a few weeks before the ROL is due. At that point, one must have a stellar application to receive a late invitation. Or know someone who is willing to put in a good word and thereby get you an interview. We interview a lot of applicants because someone contacted the program about the applicant.

The ACGME has nothing to do with match. If there were a deadline of October 1 it would prevent 4th year students from getting letters from their sub-Is submitted in time.

I hope I addressed your questions.

F
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gutonc said:
The "discrepancy in deadlines/expectations" is the least of your problems.

You state that you're "having a problem with 2CK" but is that due to prior failure(s) or just that you're not willing to take it until your predicted score is high enough? If the latter...I guess no harm. If the former, Strike 1. Also, if you don't meet the 7 year Step 1-3 time limit, this is all a moot point...your potential medical career is over.

You're a US-IMG...Strike 2.

Your YOG is "5-10 years" ago. Strike 3.

Feel free to spend the money on Step 2CK and CS, but I suspect that your chances of matching, regardless of when you take it and what score you get on it, asymptotically approach 0.
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What is the point of this?

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American medical student here who just found out, very shockingly that I failed Step2 CS. Step1 score is 239, Step2 CK score pending. Looking that I will submit my application to ERAS with a CS score of fail, what should I expect next? Gonna be difficult to obtain interviews? Looking to apply to IM in an academic program at a medium to big city (aspirations for fellowship afterwards).
 
Frederica said:
Dan,
Every program does things differently. Some wait until Oct 1 or even later to review applications. Putting deadlines for reviews on programs takes away a program's autonomy.

My PD reviews every single application in our program and the larger residency program in our department. He will review applications up until a few weeks before our last round of interviews, which is usually a few weeks before the ROL is due. At that point, one must have a stellar application to receive a late invitation. Or know someone who is willing to put in a good word and thereby get you an interview. We interview a lot of applicants because someone contacted the program about the applicant.

The ACGME has nothing to do with match. If there were a deadline of October 1 it would prevent 4th year students from getting letters from their sub-Is submitted in time.

I hope I addressed your questions.

F
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Dr. F. - Thanks for your insight. Feeling a MORAL OBLIGATION, I'm attaching this podcast to add to interested people's WEALTH OF INFORMATION and PROFESSIONALISM ... I don't think I can appreciate anymore that an interview (especially in my case) is a TWO WAY STREET .. and I will be there to learn ...

Interview with the executive vice president of the Association of American Medical Colleges, Dr. Atul Grover, on the AAMC Standardized Video Interview Research Study.
 
When programs look at where you are from. Do they look at your permanent address or do they look at your mailing address? Thanks
 
AdmiralChz said:
Interesting question - why do you ask? We just look at what school you are coming from.
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For applicants on the "bubble" (as in, the decision to invite could go either way), I look at everything: medical school, undergrad school, current address, permanent address, birthplace, and any hints in the personal statement that might reveal a hidden geographic tie to our area--especially if the applicant is from outside our region.
 
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I've always wondered how much of a factor is LOR's in the interview and ranking process? I'd imagine most letters sound the same as they'll all be positive, whether someone is a good or bad applicant, with the differences in letters coming down to the writer's reputation and language used in the letter. However, in the grand scheme of things (board scores, awards, research, etc.) does the letter carry significant weight?
 
johnwalldance said:
American medical student here who just found out, very shockingly that I failed Step2 CS. Step1 score is 239, Step2 CK score pending. Looking that I will submit my application to ERAS with a CS score of fail, what should I expect next? Gonna be difficult to obtain interviews? Looking to apply to IM in an academic program at a medium to big city (aspirations for fellowship afterwards).
Click to expand...

No one took a swing at this one, so I will.

There is no clear answer, but failing CS certainly can't help. Some PD's likely see the CS exam as mostly a waste of time and money, and failing it in the face of an otherwise satisfactory medical training career is a fluke and meaningless. I was that way, once. Then I took someone who failed CS and was otherwise fine, and they were a nightmare. It was clear why they had failed CS, and it was clear that their medical school simply covered up their problems. No more. Fail CS = immediate rejection, regardless of the rest of your app. So, you'll get less interviews that you would have with passing CS. Getting a passing score as early as possible would be good. Failing it again would be catastrophic. You may want to apply to some community programs, or to cities that are less popular.
 
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fasteddie911 said:
I've always wondered how much of a factor is LOR's in the interview and ranking process? I'd imagine most letters sound the same as they'll all be positive, whether someone is a good or bad applicant, with the differences in letters coming down to the writer's reputation and language used in the letter. However, in the grand scheme of things (board scores, awards, research, etc.) does the letter carry significant weight?
Click to expand...

Letter writers will leave hints about the recommendation in the letter. For example if a highly respected person wrote "I recommend (your name) for consieration in your program," versus "I highly reccomend (your name) ," that's a tale tell sign that the applicant may not be all that great.

In terms of ranking, our program looks at the faculty evaluations and starts the rank order based on those evaluations. But, letters are discussed during the ranking meeting.
 
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fasteddie911 said:
I've always wondered how much of a factor is LOR's in the interview and ranking process? I'd imagine most letters sound the same as they'll all be positive, whether someone is a good or bad applicant, with the differences in letters coming down to the writer's reputation and language used in the letter. However, in the grand scheme of things (board scores, awards, research, etc.) does the letter carry significant weight?
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I'll tag on to Frederica above to note that some schools only provide pass/fail grades on the transcript, and some MSPEs don't provide any comparative data or key words. In those cases, the letters really are our only clue and they become very important in determining whether or not to offer an interview.
 
fasteddie911 said:
I've always wondered how much of a factor is LOR's in the interview and ranking process? I'd imagine most letters sound the same as they'll all be positive, whether someone is a good or bad applicant, with the differences in letters coming down to the writer's reputation and language used in the letter. However, in the grand scheme of things (board scores, awards, research, etc.) does the letter carry significant weight?
Click to expand...

From what I have seen, the smaller and closer-knit field you are looking at, the more important LORs can be. So for surgical subspecialties they can make a big difference, likely because many academics Opthos know each other well, for example. LORs become even more important during fellowship applications for this reason.

For huge fields like IM and Peds LORs might not carry the same weight, but like Frederica said the writers probably through in clues about the applicants, especially if they write many letters.
 
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I am an IMG applying for IM residency. I noticed a couple of university programs require chair of medicine letter. I was wondering if this requirement applies to IMG applicants. My chair of medicine does not have an AAMC account so the letter will not be waived and my chair does not know what specifics should be included in the letter. I have waived letters from US MDs which I am hopeful will be reasonably good so I am confused about the value of an unwaived, non-US letter.
 
DrKhan1 said:
I am an IMG applying for IM residency. I noticed a couple of university programs require chair of medicine letter. I was wondering if this requirement applies to IMG applicants. My chair of medicine does not have an AAMC account so the letter will not be waived and my chair does not know what specifics should be included in the letter. I have waived letters from US MDs which I am hopeful will be reasonably good so I am confused about the value of an unwaived, non-US letter.
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I expect that most programs don't want a chair letter for IMG's. They aren't very helpful.
 
aProgDirector said:
I expect that most programs don't want a chair letter for IMG's. They aren't very helpful.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply. So I should skip the chair's letter even for programs that have listed it as an essential requirement?
 
DrKhan1 said:
Thank you for your reply. So I should skip the chair's letter even for programs that have listed it as an essential requirement?
Click to expand...

For that, I'd probably try to get one, but it won't matter for much. Your chair can get their own AAMC account to upload themselves so you don't have to do it yourself and show it as unwaived.

If you worked with someone who was a chair at a US program, that'd be more useful.
 
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Question for program coordinators: I am a US-IMG with competitive step scores (250+ , no failures). I am in the process of learning the Spanish language for use with my patients/looking into some sort of Medical Spanish certification. I'm looking to add this language skill because I've noticed about 1/3 of my patients during US rotations have been of Hispanic heritage and about 1/2 of those are strictly Spanish speaking.

1) is being bilingual in Spanish a huge plus to an already competitive application?

2) is there a specific Spanish language certification I should be looking into?



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drimo786 said:
Question for program coordinators: I am a US-IMG with competitive step scores (250+ , no failures). I am in the process of learning the Spanish language for use with my patients/looking into some sort of Medical Spanish certification. I'm looking to add this language skill because I've noticed about 1/3 of my patients during US rotations have been of Hispanic heritage and about 1/2 of those are strictly Spanish speaking.

1) is being bilingual in Spanish a huge plus to an already competitive application?

2) is there a specific Spanish language certification I should be looking into?
Click to expand...
No. And unless you're a certified medical interpreter, your hospital will still likely "encourage" you to use the translation services available.
 
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gutonc said:
No. And unless you're a certified medical interpreter, your hospital will still likely "encourage" you to use the translation services available.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, looking forward to what others have to chime in :)


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gutonc said:
If you're already a resident, why is this an issue now?
Click to expand...

Not a medstudent and not yet currently a resident; this was my gap year. Now recently officially MD, so figured bumping myself from "medstudent" was appropriate :p


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Sorry if this is a stupid question, but please bear with me as I'm an IMG.

When asking a professor to write an LOR for my residency application, should the author specify what specialty the student wants to go into? Meaning that like in the first line if he writes "I am pleased to write this letter for Jon Smith, who is applying to to your residency program" should he just keep it open by saying residency program or should he specify Anesthesiology residency program, or general surgery or whatever it is? Or at the end when they say "I highly recommend Jon without hesitation to your residency program."

I'll probably be using the same letter for categorical, prelim, and transitional year programs. so I wanted to know if it made a difference to the prelim and transitional programs.

Thank you for your advice.
 
gutonc said:
The "discrepancy in deadlines/expectations" is the least of your problems.

You state that you're "having a problem with 2CK" but is that due to prior failure(s) or just that you're not willing to take it until your predicted score is high enough? If the latter...I guess no harm. If the former, Strike 1. Also, if you don't meet the 7 year Step 1-3 time limit, this is all a moot point...your potential medical career is over.

You're a US-IMG...Strike 2.

Your YOG is "5-10 years" ago. Strike 3.

Feel free to spend the money on Step 2CK and CS, but I suspect that your chances of matching, regardless of when you take it and what score you get on it, asymptotically approach 0.
Click to expand...


Why is being a US-IMG a strike? are you saying its better to be a non-US IMG? or just to not be an IMG in general
 
1) Post your questions in one forum, and if you don't get a response in a day or so then either bump the post or try again somewhere else. People have already answered your question about LORs elsewhere.

2) Being an IMG is a strike, plain and simple. Being a US citizen is nice, but there are hoards of MD and DO graduates who will likely get considered ahead of you. Since MD classes have been expanding across the board over the past 10 years (with only a very minor increase in residency slots), the first group to get squeezed out will be IMGs, for better or worse. Some of it is political pressure, some of it is practical. There are some academic centers that have gone as far as having a standing policy discouraging even interviewing IMGs unless the application is truly excellent. That being said, tons of IMGs get into and thrive in US residencies each year so the disadvantage is not insurmountable. That's why strong board scores, good clinical rotations and great LORs (as well as seeking out programs with a recent track record of taking IMGs) are of the upmost importance - there is little room for error for IMGs.

Anyway, see the other forums you have posted in for some good advice. I agree with just about everything that has been said so far.
 
AdmiralChz said:
1) Post your questions in one forum, and if you don't get a response in a day or so then either bump the post or try again somewhere else. People have already answered your question about LORs elsewhere.

2) Being an IMG is a strike, plain and simple. Being a US citizen is nice, but there are hoards of MD and DO graduates who will likely get considered ahead of you. Since MD classes have been expanding across the board over the past 10 years (with only a very minor increase in residency slots), the first group to get squeezed out will be IMGs, for better or worse. Some of it is political pressure, some of it is practical. There are some academic centers that have gone as far as having a standing policy discouraging even interviewing IMGs unless the application is truly excellent. That being said, tons of IMGs get into and thrive in US residencies each year so the disadvantage is not insurmountable. That's why strong board scores, good clinical rotations and great LORs (as well as seeking out programs with a recent track record of taking IMGs) are of the upmost importance - there is little room for error for IMGs.

Anyway, see the other forums you have posted in for some good advice. I agree with just about everything that has been said so far.
Click to expand...

Yea I apologize for that, didn't know about this thread until after posting in the other one. That was my mistake. I'll be more careful next time.
 
Where should I put training courses/workshops I have attended or taught at? I have several training courses such as biostatistics, research methodology, Good Clinical Practice that I have either attended or taught at as a menotor. Those are not degree programs or graduate training, so I cannot put them in Education or Training sections in ERAS application form.
Should I add those in Experiences as "research experience"?
Also, where should I put my role as a peer-reviewer for journals? (volunteer exp.?)
 
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Saharsima said:
Where should I put training courses/workshops I have attended or taught at? I have several training courses such as biostatistics, research methodology, Good Clinical Practice that I have either attended or taught at as a menotor. Those are not degree programs or graduate training, so I cannot put them in Education or Training sections in ERAS application form.
Should I add those in Experiences as "research experience"?
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Work experience for the ones you taught. Leave the others out.
Also, where should I put my role as a peer-reviewer for journals? (volunteer exp.?)
Click to expand...
Sure.
 
I am a Caribbean IMG who has done all of my rotations in the US. I just found out that my transcript does not show where I have completed them. Should I include this in my work experience? I could even leave out any descriptions to make it short since it is known what medical students do. This would strictly be to show where I have done my rotations.

I have US LORs and have a sentence in my personal statement about doing my rotations in the US, but is that good enough? I want programs in the cities I rotated in to know I did them there.

Need an answer ASAP if this is a good idea or not.

(I have found similar threads on here, but none in regards to if the applicant knowing that the locations are not on their transcript)
 
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HD_ said:
I am a Caribbean IMG who has done all of my rotations in the US. I just found out that my transcript does not show where I have completed them. Should I include this in my work experience? I could even leave out any descriptions to make it short since it is known what medical students do. This would strictly be to show where I have done my rotations.

I have US LORs and have a sentence in my personal statement about doing my rotations in the US, but is that good enough? I want programs in the cities I rotated in to know I did them there.

Need an answer ASAP if this is a good idea or not.

(I have found similar threads on here, but none in regards to if the applicant knowing that the locations are not on their transcript)
Click to expand...
Nope. Nobody cares where you did your rotations.
 
I am a postdoc research fellow. Should I mention it as work experience or research experience?
 
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Saharsima said:
I am a postdoc research fellow. Should I mention it as work experience or research experience?
Click to expand...
Here you could do either, or both. It doesn't really matter.

If you decide to list it both places, only describe the research in the research experience section.

On a related note, "it doesn't really matter" is the correct answer to about 95% of the questions in this thread.
 
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Hi aPD, I mistakingly clicked the :

This LoR Author is a Program Director in a current/previous residency or fellowship where I trained. (Applies to Residents/Fellows only)

for one of my uploaded LoRs that is a program director (i clicked it hastily because i just read Prgram director and not the rest). Do I need to get this letter reuploaded or will they see its a mistake and disregard it?
 
JamaicanHerb said:
Hi aPD, I mistakingly clicked the :

This LoR Author is a Program Director in a current/previous residency or fellowship where I trained. (Applies to Residents/Fellows only)

for one of my uploaded LoRs that is a program director (i clicked it hastily because i just read Prgram director and not the rest). Do I need to get this letter reuploaded or will they see its a mistake and disregard it?
Click to expand...
See the 3rd line of my post immediately above yours.
 
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I went to a medical school in Europe where we don't have elective rotations. I did 3 electives in the US for no academic credit, could I put these as work experience since they won't appear on my transcript?
 
MarcusGunn said:
I went to a medical school in Europe where we don't have elective rotations. I did 3 electives in the US for no academic credit, could I put these as work experience since they won't appear on my transcript?
Click to expand...

Scroll up 4 posts and read the last line.


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Q Regarding certifying and applying before Sept 15. If our MSPE is uploaded after sept 15 will programs still recieve it as part of the app on october 1 or must it be uploaded before the application is certified. Thanks
 
Leafcolonel said:
Q Regarding certifying and applying before Sept 15. If our MSPE is uploaded after sept 15 will programs still recieve it as part of the app on october 1 or must it be uploaded before the application is certified. Thanks
Click to expand...

MSPEs don't get sent out until Oct 1st for pretty much everyone. You can certify and submit your app and apply without it. Its considered an additional document, that I think you don't even need to assign (its assigned automatically).
 
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Your school will handle the MSPE and every program will have access to it by default. Most schools upload at the same time, October 1.
 
JamaicanHerb said:
Hi aPD, I mistakingly clicked the :

This LoR Author is a Program Director in a current/previous residency or fellowship where I trained. (Applies to Residents/Fellows only)

for one of my uploaded LoRs that is a program director (i clicked it hastily because i just read Prgram director and not the rest). Do I need to get this letter reuploaded or will they see its a mistake and disregard it?
Click to expand...

Agree with my esteemed colleague. This is no big deal.

MarcusGunn said:
I went to a medical school in Europe where we don't have elective rotations. I did 3 electives in the US for no academic credit, could I put these as work experience since they won't appear on my transcript?
Click to expand...

In this case, I would list them as a volunteer experience. It's not work -- you weren't paid. If the rotations would be on your transcript, I would not list them. But if you did them all on your own, I would list them. But I also agree that it's not a big deal either way.
 
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I'm currently an FMG applying to the Neurology match, the 2 biggest gaps in my application are a lack of research + USCE/US LoRs, the rest of my application is competitive. I have one issue I'm conflicted about, and it is regarding research experience. I currently have no Journal Publications but have other minor publications. I'm currently involved in the early stages of a research project. I have participated in a summer research project in one of the earlier summers of my medical school(not related to Neurology), it was abandoned due to lack of facilities/resources available to conduct the project and my supervisor going on leave. Is it worth mentioning the summer Research Experience as a learning experience and what, or am I better off not mentioning it at all as it may show a lack of commitment/closure?

Thank you for your feedback.
 
Under application requirements for a good number of residency programs (im looking at anesthesia ones, since that's what im hoping to go into), I see the phrase " at least 3 letters of recommendation". What does this mean? Does it mean 3 or 4? If I've got 3 Anesthesia LOR's and 1 non anesthesia one, should I send all 4 ? or just the 3 Anesthesia ones since those 3 would meet the requirements.
 
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AestheticAnesthetic said:
Under application requirements for a good number of residency programs (im looking at anesthesia ones, since that's what im hoping to go into), I see the phrase " at least 3 letters of recommendation". What does this mean? Does it mean 3 or 4? If I've got 3 Anesthesia LOR's and 1 non anesthesia one, should I send all 4 ? or just the 3 Anesthesia ones since those 3 would meet the requirements.
Click to expand...

"At least 3" means 3 or 4. One non anesthesia letter is fine. Is this really the kind of thing you all stress over?
 
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