Asked to go get coffee for a doctor

[DermViser]

Haha, no, I said "serious question". I did and am owning up to it, and have learned what to do for next time (like I just stated in my post above). I'm genuinely wondering at what point one should refuse to do something. What things are/aren't acceptable?

I have yet to hear of any attending ask a medical student to pick up their clothes from the dry cleaning. Ever. So maybe others can remark.

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[general admission]

I have yet to hear of any attending ask a medical student to pick up their clothes from the dry cleaning. Ever. So maybe others can remark.

It has happened in the past at my school. Usually the situation presents itself in a more benign manner. For example, the new mother attending. "Hey, I'm swamped with work, and don't have much time today. Would you mind going to the store and picking me up some baby shampoo, diapers, etc? That would help me out sooooooooo much!! Thank you!" and they hand you money and walk out of the room as they're saying it.

It's not so much the specific situation as the general concept. At what point is it perfectly acceptable to say no? And who should give a **** about what's acceptable when the person on the other end is evaluating you and has a tangible effect on your future? I need to re-calibrate now, apparently, as this thread has shown me.

 

[DrZeke]

I'm a PGY-2 and one of my attendings often hands me 20 bucks and says " please grab me something and get something for yourself too." Do I feel like I have no role as a doctor because I did an errand for her? No. Even if I had less clinical responsibilities I would still take the money and buy us lunch because it's clearly a nice gesture.

Sometimes you need to use common sense. Stop thinking about what they told you at orientation and just think of what a real person would do. It's not like he handed you a joint or spanked you on the ass. Those are examples of harassment or awkward situations.

Like everyone else said we don't always have time to grade you on your clinical skills. I tried to make my med students look things up and be helpful as an intern , but in my current position all med students can really do is observe or ask a few questions. Any demonstration of trying to be helpful, or nice to the patients or being a team player makes an impression on me. It's sad, but true that when my med student offered to buy me coffee or asked me if I wanted something when I didn't get to take a lunch I thought - wow that's really nice and it left an impression on me. So seriously, use your head and think about the situation before you let your *abuse alarm* go off.

 

[DermViser]

It has happened in the past at my school. Usually the situation presents itself in a more benign manner. For example, the new mother attending. "Hey, I'm swamped with work, and don't have much time today. Would you mind going to the store and picking me up some baby shampoo, diapers, etc? That would help me out sooooooooo much!! Thank you!" and they hand you money and walk out of the room as they're saying it.

It's not so much the specific situation as the general concept. At what point is it perfectly acceptable to say no? And who should give a **** about what's acceptable when the person on the other end is evaluating you and has a tangible effect on your future? I need to re-calibrate now, apparently, as this thread has shown me.

Personally, if a kind attending who is teaching me is a new mother and she asked me that as she is swamped with work, I would be happy to get it for her. It's no skin off my back and my ego isn't so huge in which that task is "below" me.

 

[DrZeke]

It has happened in the past at my school. Usually the situation presents itself in a more benign manner. For example, the new mother attending. "Hey, I'm swamped with work, and don't have much time today. Would you mind going to the store and picking me up some baby shampoo, diapers, etc? That would help me out sooooooooo much!! Thank you!" and they hand you money and walk out of the room as they're saying it.

Ok so if you don't see a difference between this situation and the one you originally described then you have judgement issues. I'm sorry, but I'm being honest.

The situation you just described involved you going out of your way and leaving campus to go to a store. You can decline that by saying I don't feel comfortable I'm sorry. But getting coffee or picking up snacks from the cafeteria, coffee cart, place next door is not the same as someone wanting a personal assistant. Have you personally ever been asked to do someone's shopping? I'm asking you, not the rumor you heard about another med student.

 

[general admission]

Ok so if you don't see a difference between this situation and the one you originally described then you have judgement issues. I'm sorry, but I'm being honest.

The situation you just described involved you going out of your way and leaving campus to go to a store. You can decline that by saying I don't feel comfortable I'm sorry. But getting coffee or picking up snacks from the cafeteria, coffee cart, place next door is not the same as someone wanting a personal assistant. Have you personally ever been asked to do someone's shopping? I'm asking you, not the rumor you heard about another med student.

I haven't. That wasn't a rumor, it was explicitly stated to us by an admin during orientation. I definitely see a difference. A difference between getting a copy of labs off the copy machine in the next room, grabbing a coffee from the cafeteria, and grabbing their groceries. I'm sincerely wondering at what point it would be acceptable to decline, especially in light of the fact that the person asking you could have a large effect on your future.

The coffee I was asked to get was an off-campus place though - a good 10 minute drive, 7 minute walk to parking lot etc. In fact there's more to that situation that I haven't brought up here, but it's not important anymore. I have gotten the general message from this thread.

 

[DrZeke]

I haven't. That wasn't a rumor, it was explicitly stated to us by an admin during orientation. I definitely see a difference. A difference between getting a copy of labs off the copy machine in the next room, grabbing a coffee from the cafeteria, and grabbing their groceries. I'm sincerely wondering at what point it would be acceptable to decline, especially in light of the fact that the person asking you could have a large effect on your future.

The coffee I was asked to get was an off-campus place though - a good 10 minute drive, 7 minute walk to parking lot etc. In fact there's more to that situation that I haven't brought up here, but it's not important anymore. I have gotten the general message from this thread.

If you have details regarding the situation that you are uncertain of and your description of the original situation is inaccurate then just PM one of us with details to ask.

 

[Serous Demilune]

you could pretty much guarantee not getting an interview

Whoa now resident, simmer down. You cannot seriously tell us you have the power to single-handedly shoot down someone's residency app because they didn't get you coffee.

 

[sylvanthus]

go get the coffee and stop being a little bitch - more than likely you watching the attending write a note is boring and mundane anyways

furthermore, if u were say "gunning" for a spot in that program and you said no to me - you could pretty much guarantee not getting an interview (not to sound like a complete dick, but i rarely make students do any stupid scutwork or get things like coffee - but sometimes it saves me time to make you go do a stupid task)

Enlighten us as to what program you are faculty at so we can warn people to avoid it in the future.

 

[joeDO2]

If it helps the team work I'd do it no questions. If its a personal errand (ie dry cleaning) probably not but even then I'd make exceptions depending on the circumstance as long as it is a one time thing and for a legit reason

 

[Wordead]

Whoa now resident, simmer down. You cannot seriously tell us you have the power to single-handedly shoot down someone's residency app because they didn't get you coffee.

Residents most certainly do have that power at most programs for whatever reason they want.

 

[Smokemont]

Holy crap this thread is unbelievable. Whether your attending should ask you to get coffee is irrelevant, because he did. Hurry your a$$ to the nearest Starbucks, uphill in the snow if necessary, and hurry back with a smile on your face. Upon giving it to him ask when he'll need another and have that one ready beforehand.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Residents most certainly do have that power at most programs for whatever reason they want.

Wow medical training is such a wonderland. I can't get enough.

 

[Wordead]

Wow medical training is such a wonderland. I can't get enough.

How do you think a job interview works?

 

[deleted480308]

Just do what you are told and get your grade

 

[Serous Demilune]

How do you think a job interview works?

No other jobs I can think of have four week tryout periods where you're evaluated by everyone from the CEO to the junior assistant's secretary, and any one person in that entire workplace has the power to deny you a job because you didn't get a cup of coffee when asked.

 

[DrBowtie]

No other jobs I can think of have four week tryout periods where you're evaluated by everyone from the CEO to the junior assistant's secretary, and any one person in that entire workplace has the power to deny you a job because you didn't get a cup of coffee when asked.

Plenty of jobs ask their receptionist their impression. Gauges how you act to people "beneath" you.

And +1 for residents having so called blackball ability for applicants. Residencies are often a small tight group who spend insane hours together. 1 bad apple can spoil the bunch.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Plenty of jobs ask their receptionist their impression. Gauges how you act to people "beneath" you.

And +1 for residents having so called blackball ability for applicants. Residencies are often a small tight group who spend insane hours together. 1 bad apple can spoil the bunch.

COFFEE

 

[Wordead]

No other jobs I can think of have four week tryout periods where you're evaluated by everyone from the CEO to the junior assistant's secretary, and any one person in that entire workplace has the power to deny you a job because you didn't get a cup of coffee when asked.

I dont think you've ever worked before. Thats exactly how it works in many companies. 360 interview days are not unique to medicine.

 

[Wordead]

COFFEE

Residents at my program said they blacklisted someone because they said their favorite food was pizza, lulz

 

[Serous Demilune]

Residents at my program said they blacklisted someone because they said their favorite food was pizza, lulz

SMH. What if it was that student's only chance of getting a spot anywhere close to his sick mother? What if their SO worked in that town, and now they need to quit their job and uproot their life to follow this student halfway across the country? IT'S NOT FAIR

 

[Wordead]

SMH. What if it was that student's only chance of getting a spot anywhere close to his sick mother? What if their SO worked in that town, and now they need to quit their job and uproot their life to follow this student halfway across the country? IT'S NOT FAIR

If their #1 priority was their mother or SO they could always get a job as a waiter/waitress?

 

[sylvanthus]

I still standby the fact that it is utterly ridiculous that a resident would consider blackballing someone who didn't get them coffee; and still hope this person posts their program so that people know to avoid it. I can guarantee you that this crap would just be the tip of the iceberg.

 

[DrBowtie]

I still standby the fact that it is utterly ridiculous that a resident would consider blackballing someone who didn't get them coffee; and still hope this person posts their program so that people know to avoid it. I can guarantee you that this crap would just be the tip of the iceberg.

It's not solely about the coffee. It's about being a team player.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Residents at my program said they blacklisted someone because they said their favorite food was pizza, lulz

Residents at my program have a lot of input, to the extent that we can definitely blackball our home students or visiting sub-I's.

I have never seen someone get blackballed for a superficial reason like that. If we weigh in that strongly, there is a damn good reason. Something that would make us seriously concerned about having to work with that person for five years.


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[sylvanthus]

It's not solely about the coffee. It's about being a team player.

Since when does refusing to get someone a coffee = not a team player? This has to be a surgery residency.

 

[DrBowtie]

Since when does refusing to get someone a coffee = not a team player? This has to be a surgery residency.

If someone refuses a simple task such as strolling down to get coffee (I doubt any hospital requires 10 min drive to get an acceptable cup of coffee), when they aren't doing anything else remotely useful for the team and aren't qualified to do anything, do you think they'll be the type to pitch in and see that extra late BS consult for you while you're trying to tie up loose ends?

 

[sylvanthus]

If someone refuses a simple task such as strolling down to get coffee (I doubt any hospital requires 10 min drive to get an acceptable cup of coffee), when they aren't doing anything else remotely useful for the team and aren't qualified to do anything, do you think they'll be the type to pitch in and see that extra late BS consult for you while you're trying to tie up loose ends?

Yes, because that is actually a worthwhile task and not akin to being someones bitch.

 

[DrBowtie]

Yes, because that is actually a worthwhile task and not akin to being someones bitch.

Sorry we differ in opinion. I don't consider getting the team coffee or food when they're actually taking care of patients while you twiddle your thumbs in the team room being someone's bitch.

 

[DermViser]

Whoa now resident, simmer down. You cannot seriously tell us you have the power to single-handedly shoot down someone's residency app because they didn't get you coffee.

You're kidding right? Why do you think residents come to interview dinners? If they think they won't get along with you, they'll let program faculty know and you're off the list.

 

[Serous Demilune]

You're kidding right? Why do you think residents come to interview dinners? If they think they won't get along with you, they'll let program faculty know and you're off the list.

It just seems so trivial and petty. I understand that if someone raises SERIOUS concerns (i.e. outright says I'm gonna be lazy and do as little work as possible, my Westboro Baptist Church told me God hates fags, etc.) to a resident, then by all means tell the PD. Coffee and pizza are just so irrelevant. As a resident, I would hesitate bringing up a student not getting coffee for me as a reason for not interviewing them because it would look bad on me.

 

[Wordead]

It just seems so trivial and petty. I understand that if someone raises SERIOUS concerns (i.e. outright says I'm gonna be lazy and do as little work as possible, my Westboro Baptist Church told me God hates fags, etc.) to a resident, then by all means tell the PD. Coffee and pizza are just so irrelevant. As a resident, I would hesitate bringing up a student not getting coffee for me as a reason for not interviewing them because it would look bad on me.

If you arent gonna get coffee and little things for your resident/attending, you sure as hell arent going to do it for your fellow resident when you're actually in residency.

 

[surgok]

I haven't. That wasn't a rumor, it was explicitly stated to us by an admin during orientation. I definitely see a difference. A difference between getting a copy of labs off the copy machine in the next room, grabbing a coffee from the cafeteria, and grabbing their groceries. I'm sincerely wondering at what point it would be acceptable to decline, especially in light of the fact that the person asking you could have a large effect on your future.

The coffee I was asked to get was an off-campus place though - a good 10 minute drive, 7 minute walk to parking lot etc. In fact there's more to that situation that I haven't brought up here, but it's not important anymore. I have gotten the general message from this thread.

Do you need an algorithm for this sort of thing? If you have to ask this question, you fail at life. Use common sense.......

 

[alpinism]

Whoa now resident, simmer down. You cannot seriously tell us you have the power to single-handedly shoot down someone's residency app because they didn't get you coffee.

At many programs, interview decisions only occur after the PD meets with all the residents who worked with the medical students. During rotations most of your time is spent with residents so attendings need feedback from them for things like grades and evaluations. If a resident doesn't like you or thinks you had a bad attitude, they can certainly tell the PD that they thought you performed poorly or wouldn't be a good "fit" for the program.

That's why most people suggest always being helpful and proactive when on rotations, since you're always being evaluated.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

(3) Not long ago at a conference one of my attendings walked up to me in the hotel bar and said, "How come I don't have a beer waiting for me?" I bought all his drinks that night.

Yeesh. At every conference I've gone to the attendings buy us drinks, not the other way around


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[Serous Demilune]

At many programs, interview decisions only occur after the PD meets with all the residents who worked with the medical students. During rotations most of your time is spent with residents so attendings need feedback from them for things like grades and evaluations. If a resident doesn't like you or thinks you had a bad attitude, they can certainly tell the PD that they thought you performed poorly or wouldn't be a good "fit" for the program.

That's why most people suggest always being helpful and proactive when on rotations, since you're always being evaluated.

That makes sense. Although in that scenario the resident is not really being truthful. I couldn't imagine sabotaging another human being over coffee, let alone someone who was in the same position I was only a few years beforehand, but I guess there are those out there who would.

 

[Serous Demilune]

Residency is a huge grind, made far worse when your peers aren't willing to go the extra mile to help you. It's not unreasonable to assume that the med stud who says, "My school says I can't get you coffee," will become the intern who says, "I can't follow-up on that xray because I just hit 16 hours" or the resident who says, "I can't see this consult that came in at 0600 because I just hit 24 hours." I have expressed my feelings about students over similar issues, and they did not become part of our program.

Avoiding a task doesn't make it go away, it just shifts the work to someone else. I guarantee you that once the med stud refused to get the coffee, some junior resident ended up doing it. And I further guarantee that the junior resident was far busier and more exhausted than the med stud.

I've seen this discussion on SDN before and it doesn't tend to end well for the med student. I disagree with you but I don't think I'm gonna change your mind so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Perrotfish]

If you arent gonna get coffee and little things for your resident/attending, you sure as hell arent going to do it for your fellow resident when you're actually in residency.

This hasn't been my experience. In fact I've notice the more accommodating a student/resident is to their boss their less accommodating they are likely to be to their peers.

 

[Wordead]

This hasn't been my experience. In fact I've notice the more accommodating a student/resident is to their boss their less accommodating they are likely to be to their peers.

I think that's the same thing I was saying - nobody is more generous to their peers than their bosses.

 

[DermViser]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't have agreed with myself either before residency. But it really is amazing how much more painful things get when you have a d-bag co-resident.

Introspection is low commodity here on SDN. Apparently in order for one to "get it" here, one always has to go thru it first.

 

[DermViser]

No other jobs I can think of have four week tryout periods where you're evaluated by everyone from the CEO to the junior assistant's secretary, and any one person in that entire workplace has the power to deny you a job because you didn't get a cup of coffee when asked.

You think the impression of the secretary won't have any place in another profession and can deny you a job?

 

[DermViser]

It just seems so trivial and petty. I understand that if someone raises SERIOUS concerns (i.e. outright says I'm gonna be lazy and do as little work as possible, my Westboro Baptist Church told me God hates fags, etc.) to a resident, then by all means tell the PD. Coffee and pizza are just so irrelevant. As a resident, I would hesitate bringing up a student not getting coffee for me as a reason for not interviewing them because it would look bad on me.

What potential resident is going to come out and say they are lazy? Residents work in ridiculous close proximity with each other for better or for worse. Residents have every right to tell program leadership that they would not be able to work with you if you can't even hold it together for a residency interview.

 

[DermViser]

This hasn't been my experience. In fact I've notice the more accommodating a student/resident is to their boss their less accommodating they are likely to be to their peers.

That's just being a sociopath.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I am not aware of many programs where the input from a single resident is enough to sink a student. In fact, if such a place exists, I would encourage anyone to steer clear of that program simply because that implies to me the attendings don't play any significant role in education and just want residents who get work done.

In my program, I've called out residents who have simply stated during student reviews when they have stated that they don't think students are fits. Most often they have superficial or unfounded reasons. When they have significant reasons -- bigotry, poor attitude, fund of knowledge, argumentation, etc. -- those are reasons in my mind to seriously consider sinking a student. As I've said a 1,000 times, the best way to shoot down your chances of getting into a residency is to do an away rotation.

I would never expect a resident to student to buy me a beer (or anything), but I have had residents buy me drinks and food because they have wanted to do so. I've gladly accepted if they are insistent. Frankly, I think most of them know that whenever I'm around an event, I usually pick up the tab or the coffee bill. I think that's why the residents and students I encounter don't mind getting coffee or food for the group. Can't tell you how many times I've taken my break at noon to finish closing charts while the residents and students get lunch -- all of them asking if I wanted something. Nurses ask me this as well. I have found that if you treat your team well, the team usually bends over backwards for the team leader.

It's attitude, and it's about being part of a team. Help your team out if they are including you as part of the team.

 

[AMEHigh]

Didn't realize the response would be this unanimous. Definitely know what to do next time.

Serious question - Would you all pick up the attending's dry cleaning? They are really busy, there's nothing for you to be doing at that moment, they're always nice to you and they asked very politely. Would you do that on an M3 rotation in specialty you're not interested in? What about an M3 rotation you ARE interested in? Subi?

Like I said above, come on, use some common sense.

There are a million different scenarios.

If an attending asked me to do a legit favor outside of the hospital once I'd probably say yes while being slightly annoyed if it inconvenienced me.

If it became a pattern I'd talk to my school about it and they've been known to take student suggestions/complaints seriously.

There are going to be a million scenarios that come up as a student and resident and using some common sense and remembering to be a team player will get you far.

 

[Perrotfish]

I am not aware of many programs where the input from a single resident is enough to sink a student. In fact, if such a place exists, I would encourage anyone to steer clear of that program simply because that implies to me the attendings don't play any significant role in education and just want residents who get work done.

Tired is coming from the military, where every MS4 is expected to work for a full month at each residency site they want a chance of matching at, and then they poll all of the residents about all the applying MS4s prior to the match. Bad resident reviews are pretty rare, and are taken very seriously.

 

[Smurfette]

You're kidding right? Why do you think residents come to interview dinners? If they think they won't get along with you, they'll let program faculty know and you're off the list.

At my program, we went for the free food/drink to the interview dinners and to be social with both co-residents and applicants. Someone would have to really stand out in a negative way for one of us to tell the PD not to rank someone (i.e. inappropriate sexual comments, tells us flat out after a few drinks that they didn't want to come here, gets drunk and acts belligerent, openly insulting co-applicants or residents, etc.). We were far more likely to actively lobby (successfully) for students we thought were truly awesome to be ranked highly.

 

[DermViser]

At my program, we went for the free food/drink to the interview dinners and to be social with both co-residents and applicants. Someone would have to really stand out in a negative way for one of us to tell the PD not to rank someone (i.e. inappropriate sexual comments, tells us flat out after a few drinks that they didn't want to come here, gets drunk and acts belligerent, openly insulting co-applicants or residents, etc.). We were far more likely to actively lobby (successfully) for students we thought were truly awesome to be ranked highly.

I agree. I don't think it's a purposeful thing. However, if someone is disinterested, egotistical, etc. and residents see that, they rightfully communicate that to faculty.

 

[jakeislove]

I'd just get the coffee.

Anytime I was running out for food it was habit to poll residents and other students. Basically, it's being polite.

Also, some people get crabby when hungry.

 

[Helen Wheels]

Really?!?! That seems like a wide pendulum swing in the other direction.

Yes, In a meeting with the entire class in second year, an administrative faculty member literally told us, "If your attending asks you to jump, your only question should be, 'How high?'"

Honestly, if I am not doing anything else I would have no problem getting coffee and I have done this on one occasion (the attending offered to pay for me, too) . Having to leave the hospital to fetch dry cleaning is a whole different ballgame and I think that is unreasonable.