Asked to go get coffee for a doctor

[SouthernSurgeon]

I agree. I don't think it's a purposeful thing. However, if someone is disinterested, egotistical, etc. and residents see that, they rightfully communicate that to faculty.

At the interview dinner, someone would have to do something really egregious for us to say anything to the PD. Vast majority of cases in that setting get the benefit of the doubt - one man's "disinterested" could easily be another man's tired/anxious/etc. last year I think I said something negative about ONE candidate over the whole interview season based on my interaction with them at dinner. And I went to every dinner and tried to meet most/all of the applicants.

It's the home students and Sub-Is who we will give more substantial feedback on since we have much greater exposure to them and a better sense of their personality and ability.


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[DermViser]

At the interview dinner, someone would have to do something really egregious for us to say anything to the PD. Vast majority of cases in that setting get the benefit of the doubt - one man's "disinterested" could easily be another man's tired/anxious/etc. last year I think I said something negative about ONE candidate over the whole interview season based on my interaction with them at dinner. And I went to every dinner and tried to meet most/all of the applicants.

It's the home students and Sub-Is who we will give more substantial feedback on since we have much greater exposure to them and a better sense of their personality and ability.

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Yes, but for example, if an applicant is at a dinner and everyone is sitting with each other and talking and one is sitting, rolling his eyes as if he doesn't want to be there, then it's a red flag. Quite different than someone who is just shy or nervous. I'm sure the home students and Sub-Is get feedback about them long in advance of their actual interview.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Yes, but for example, if an applicant is at a dinner and everyone is sitting with each other and talking and one is sitting, rolling his eyes as if he doesn't want to be there, then it's a red flag. Quite different than someone who is just shy or nervous. I'm sure the home students and Sub-Is get feedback about them long in advance of their actual interview.

Sure. My point was just that my (and most residents I know) threshold to say something negative about an applicant based on a one-time encounter is pretty high. They really have to do something egregious to stand out negatively and even some minor quirks will get the benefit of the doubt.

In contrast a student who spends an extended time with us - I'm going to have a more reliable impression of them and am more likely to speak up either positively or negatively


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[Raryn]

Whoa now resident, simmer down. You cannot seriously tell us you have the power to single-handedly shoot down someone's residency app because they didn't get you coffee.

During interview season my program quite literally has a meeting once a month for the residents where we go over the interview applicants from the previous few weeks. As in, they flash the pictures/names/schools one by one and ask for comments from the residents. Anyone, from people who worked with them in the past to the residents who ran the tour to the residents who sat with them at lunch can add a comment. I guarantee you bad comments are taken down and heard quite clearly by the program administration. I doubt we're the only program that does similar.

Now, I don't think I'd shoot someone's application down for refusing to get me a drink, but if it showed a pattern of behavior? It very well might be noted.

 

[Nasrudin]

This thread has been a good read. I agree with the getting coffee as symbol and microcosm of congeniality camp.

But also. As a medical student, standing around watching other people work a lot. Don't you enjoy getting off the unit to run errands? I used to love those tasks. I would prefer running errands all day for my team rather than being there for some specialties.

This is definitely a story about a millennial with zero common sense.

 

[DrZeke]

This thread has been a good read. I agree with the getting coffee as symbol and microcosm of congeniality camp.

But also. As a medical student, standing around watching other people work a lot. Don't you enjoy getting off the unit to run errands? I used to love those tasks. I would prefer running errands all day for my team rather than being there for some specialties.

This is definitely a story about a millennial with zero common sense.

Haha I so agree with this. Anything to get me off the wards was welcomed.

 

[ChiDO]

During interview season my program quite literally has a meeting once a month for the residents where we go over the interview applicants from the previous few weeks. As in, they flash the pictures/names/schools one by one and ask for comments from the residents. Anyone, from people who worked with them in the past to the residents who ran the tour to the residents who sat with them at lunch can add a comment. I guarantee you bad comments are taken down and heard quite clearly by the program administration. I doubt we're the only program that does similar.

Now, I don't think I'd shoot someone's application down for refusing to get me a drink, but if it showed a pattern of behavior? It very well might be noted.

As stated numerus times by previous posters, at our program all comments and opinoins about all students are taken to heart. If one resident has a bad experience with one student, but everyone else thinks they are great, then obviously the student was having a bad day.

And I would also agree with prior posters that the student who quotes rules and regulations will be the same lazy f'ing resident in your program. I'm grateful that some of my fellow PGY residents in other specialties are not in mine, because there are some lazy POSs that i had to work with intern year. (ie. it's 4 am, i've done 12 admissions already..and you are on admission #5....wtf are u doing).

In the end use common sense, however, easier said than done apparently.

 

[VisionaryTics]

During interview season my program quite literally has a meeting once a month for the residents where we go over the interview applicants from the previous few weeks. As in, they flash the pictures/names/schools one by one and ask for comments from the residents. Anyone, from people who worked with them in the past to the residents who ran the tour to the residents who sat with them at lunch can add a comment. I guarantee you bad comments are taken down and heard quite clearly by the program administration. I doubt we're the only program that does similar.

Now, I don't think I'd shoot someone's application down for refusing to get me a drink, but if it showed a pattern of behavior? It very well might be noted.

We do the same thing. I'm an intern, and am usually off-service, but the other residents and chiefs usually seem impressed by students who seamlessly "become part of the team".

Oh, the PGY4 got coffee for the juniors today while we worked on notes.

 

[dienekes88]

When I was a medical student, the resident/fellow would ask me to get coffee and usually gave me enough to get one for myself. I always did it.

In my previous job (retail in a big city), I was asked to get coffee for the team plenty of times. Getting coffee is not a big deal to me.

I have on several occasions asked my interns to order pizza for both the team and the ICU nurse. I always put my credit card down and refuse to let anyone else pay. I have also bought ice cream and sodas for the team plenty of times. Meals and snacks are a bonding experience in medicine, because it allows for a tiny bit of humanity in this sh*tshow.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

When I was a medical student, the resident/fellow would ask me to get coffee and usually gave me enough to get one for myself. I always did it.

In my previous job (retail in a big city), I was asked to get coffee for the team plenty of times. Getting coffee is not a big deal to me.

I have on several occasions asked my interns to order pizza for both the team and the ICU nurse. I always put my credit card down and refuse to let anyone else pay. I have also bought ice cream and sodas for the team plenty of times. Meals and snacks are a bonding experience in medicine, because it allows for a tiny bit of humanity in this sh*tshow.

Yeah now that I think about it, the med students job on peds when we took call was always to get team dinner.

(a) Peds was the furthest thing from malignant and scutty you could imagine
(b) the residents always paid, so even if you were being "scutted" you got a free dinner (and we usually ordered out from somewhere decent)
(c) the time off the ward usually meant you got to skip an admission
(d) the team bonding time was clutch for everyone's sanity

We do team dinners on surgery on some of the services where the whole team is on call together (e.g. trauma). But I would never ever think of asking a student to get the food because I'm so wary of the mistreatment policies.

 

[Siggy]

(please don't quote this post, thanks) What do you do in this situation? I was asked a few days ago and it's been on my mind. I very very respectfully declined.

I was repeatedly told during orientation that you are NOT to do anything like this, that docs are told not to make students do it, and to report it if it happens. What made me feel kind of bad is that he has gotten snacks for the staff before. But he seemed very, very understanding and sincere, saying not to worry about it. When I tried to approach him later to explain, he completely reassure me not to worry before I could even get any words out.

Did I do the right thing? Or should I legit just not worry about it?

In 2 years I foresee the following thread, "I had a shift that required me to stay 16.5 hours, should I report this hours violation?"

 

[Siggy]

I hate this $hit. This clown had no business asking you to do this. Even asking "respectfully" is a no-go, in my opinion. "Would you feel comfortable picking up dinner for the team?" is still off-limits as far as I'm concerned. I was taught that such questions aren't really questions, but rather polite instructions, so I hate it when people don't recognize that. Have some wherewithal and recognize the awkward position you're putting this person in.

If a student refuses (without good reason, and no, this isn't a good reason) to go fetch dinner for the call or night team THAT INCLUDES THAT STUDENT, then that student has no claim to request whoever does end up going to fetch food to get them food as well. If it's the night that the cafeteria doesn't have late night hours, then too bad for that student.

 

[0919mmk]

For me the fundamental issue here is a lack of foresight. Whatever "scutwork" you have to do on a rotation is insignificant relative to the potential reward of a good letter/recommendation/contact that will help you get your dream job 1-2 years from now. You won't even remember these rotations 10 years from now, so do whatever you have to do. I've had plenty of residents who asked me to do stuff that probably violated some rule in some handbook: the right answer is basically always "yes, no problem", unless you are literally harming a patient. Because 10 years from now, do you want to be thinking "Man, I'm glad I stood up to that resident, even though now I'm at this crappy residency." It's not worth the risk.

 

[sylvanthus]

For me the fundamental issue here is a lack of foresight. Whatever "scutwork" you have to do on a rotation is insignificant relative to the potential reward of a good letter/recommendation/contact that will help you get your dream job 1-2 years from now. You won't even remember these rotations 10 years from now, so do whatever you have to do. I've had plenty of residents who asked me to do stuff that probably violated some rule in some handbook: the right answer is basically always "yes, no problem", unless you are literally harming a patient. Because 10 years from now, do you want to be thinking "Man, I'm glad I stood up to that resident, even though now I'm at this crappy residency." It's not worth the risk.

While I agree to a point, I also want to point out that this is why medical students/premeds, and then subsequently residents and attendings have no backbone. We are so used to just sucking it up and putting up with nearly any crap thrown our way because we are so concerned about getting ahead and how it can maybe hurt/help us in the future. I also think this is partly why we don't stand up as a group to nurses, administrators, politicians, etc and are losing ground to other professions.

 

[Kaustikos]

Yeah,
I'll be honest and admit I'm being selfish because I can get myself coffee without feeling guilty. I have, on occasion, even driven to places... I mean, Einstein Bagels are so worth it

 

[tdram]

I have yet to hear of any attending ask a medical student to pick up their clothes from the dry cleaning. Ever. So maybe others can remark.

I went to UPS and mailed a package for an attending. In exchange, I was given the rest of the day off. I gladly accepted the deal as it was a rotation I had no interest in, and attending knew it.

 

[DermViser]

I went to UPS and mailed a package for an attending. In exchange, I was given the rest of the day off. I gladly accepted the deal as it was a rotation I had no interest in, and attending knew it.

Seems like a good deal to me.

 

[tdram]

Seems like a good deal to me.

Yes it was. We need to ensure that future students still have these sorts of deals, which won't happen if people like the OP keep refusing to do scut!

 

[Gastrapathy]

When I was a resident, I would order dinner from my wife's family's restaurant and send a stud to get it. They were the only ones who could leave. One complained about it to my PD. No more free dinners for my interns until she rotated off. I didn't grade her, since she complained about me. They did though.


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[jakeislove]

The time and expertise of an Attending Physician is more than worth a cup of coffee. I'm truly amazed something this silly even merits discussion.

 

[tdram]

The time and expertise of an Attending Physician is more than worth a cup of coffee. I'm truly amazed something this silly even merits discussion.

Totally agree.

 

[g8orlife]

When I was a resident, I would order dinner from my wife's family's restaurant and send a stud to get it. They were the only ones who could leave. One complained about it to my PD. No more free dinners for my interns until she rotated off. I didn't grade her, since she complained about me. They did though.


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An attending once gave me his keys to help drive him to UPS during a break between surgery cases. He is now writing me an LOR for ERAS. I find that when an attending asks me something, it's usually because he/she feels like they have a positive connection with me.

Along the lines of Gastropathy's post, Think of it as a positive. I don't think most attendings would risk having a student complain about them if they asked a favor.

 

[Kaustikos]

An attending once gave me his keys to help drive him to UPS during a break between surgery cases. He is now writing me an LOR for ERAS. I find that when an attending asks me something, it's usually because he/she feels like they have a positive connection with me.

Along the lines of Gastropathy's post, Think of it as a positive. I don't think most attendings would risk having a student complain about them if they asked a favor.

Completely forgot about the time I drove a resident home and fixed his car... Is that unprofessional?
I only jumped his battery so no harm, right?

 

[ProEra]

Holy ****. Just read through the entire thread. OP is clueless.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Is jumped his battery what we are calling it these days?


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[DermViser]

When I was a resident, I would order dinner from my wife's family's restaurant and send a stud to get it. They were the only ones who could leave. One complained about it to my PD. No more free dinners for my interns until she rotated off. I didn't grade her, since she complained about me. They did though.

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You couldn't grade her, or you didn't grade her? I hope they reamed her on her evaluation.

 

[Kaustikos]

Is jumped his battery what we are calling it these days?


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It's not gay if you don't make eye contact.

 

[Dermione Granger]

I don't recall feeling like i was scuted in med school. On the contrary I owed many favors to many attendings and residents. I have had some good attendings and resudents who got me coffees and food as a med stud. One attending even offered to give me a ride when she found out I got into minor accident. It's just a human decency to be nice to other people in general. A nice gesture will be remembered forever. And remember they have to spend additional time to do your evaluations and LORs and Teach u. The only way u can return those favors is to do anything they ask. Hell I baby sat for my thesis advisor many times. But she devoted much time with my publications and all my LORs for residency and scholarships etc. Baby sitting was a small way to repay her.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I think the above summarizes it nicely: It's purely a perception. Students now perceive themselves as entitled and put out by the slightest thing.

Scut was just something we just expected and something we just did as part of our role.

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[VenusinFurs]

I think there is maybe some missing context here? If you have a good rapport with a student, and you are busy and they are not, and you ask them nicely if they would mind getting coffee and whatever they want from a coffee shop, that doesn't sound horribly inappropriate to me. If there's an opportunity to learn going on and you say "Hey sweetheart where's my coffee!" that's obviously not ok. I was only asked if I could get coffee and things a few times as a med student, and it was always in the former nicer way, and I never felt it was a command or that it was a misuse of power.

Now that I'm a resident. sometimes the students offer to get me coffee and things (I never ask) and I always think highly of those students because they are showing sensitivity to the needs of others. Also if you see your resident is clearly stressed out and you ask if there's anything you can do to help them out, you're going to get a lot of points as a good dude/dudette. Basically medicine involves a lot of collaboration and you typically become very close with your colleagues, so showing friendliness and a willingness to help out in not strictly medical ways really tends to work in your favor when it comes time for evaluations. That said, I am in a residency that is more collegial and less hierarchical, so ymmv.

 

[Kaustikos]

I think the above summarizes it nicely: It's purely a perception. Students now perceive themselves as entitled and put out by the slightest thing.

Scut was just something we just expected and something we just did as part of our role.

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It's sometimes difficult to not appear entitled. I try to do things not because I feel like I deserve it but because I want to learn it to get experience. I do always ask before I do it and if they say no then I don't even push it further.