Attempt #2

[navigator]

Hi all,

I've been a lurker for a few years and learned a lot from all of you. After getting my first pre-interview, post-secondary rejection from UCSF (where I had no business applying to, TBH), I'm beginning to face the reality that I may not receive any interviews this season, will have to apply again, and must correct all the weaknesses in my application as soon as possible. I'd appreciate any and all feedback!

Texas resident, Male, ORM, BS Biology
3.5ish GPA, 30-33 MCAT

I had the following activities on my application:
1. Hiring Consultant of Cultural Exchange Firm
2. Research Assistant
3. Tutoring
4. Sports Med Volunteering
5. Transcontinental Cyclist and Route Coordinator
6. Summer Research Program
7. Service Director of Fraternity
8. Physician Shadowing
9. Eagle Scout
10. President of Public Health Organization

I had sparse clinical volunteering, which I intend to make up for ASAP. However, I did have a pretty good personal statement, had many people read/edit it, and thought that my application was overall fairly strong in conveying my commitment to medicine.

What can I do to improve? Here are my biggest flaws:

- Sub-par GPA and average MCAT.
- Very little clinical experience

I'd appreciate all the help!

navigator

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[DrMidlife]

School list? How many? Did you apply to all of the TX schools? Any OOS publics other than UCSF?

 

[navigator]

Oh right. I applied to all the in-state Texas schools (except TCOM); all the out-of-state schools were reaches, since I wasn't too sure if mid- to low-tier schools would accept a Texan resident. (From the advice I got before applying, sending applications to all of the Texas schools would have ensured a good mix of reaches, matches, and safeties.... now I'm not so sure what was true.)

Texas schools: TT-El Paso, TT-Lubbock, Texas A&M, UTHSC-SA, UTHSS-Houston, UTMB, UT-Southwestern, Baylor.
OOS: Stanford, UCSF (got secondary), UCLA (no secondary), Columbia, Northwestern

Also, now that I've gotten my first rejection, I was thinking of calling UCSF to ask about how I could improve my application for med school next year. What would be the best way to do this? Should I ask to consult with the admissions dean directly?

 

[DrMidlife]

UCSF has no responsibility for you, but the Texas schools more or less do. No Texas love makes no sense to me here. Does Texas still do that "match" that's done in October?

My suggestions for pursuing feedback:
1. Be professional, polite and personable in all communications.
2. Pursue feedback from some or all schools as you like, whether or not you got an interview.
3. Start with a phone call to the admissions office. Ask if there's an opportunity to get feedback on your app.
4. Relentlessly, graciously keep asking until they give in.
5. Send handwritten thank you notes every time somebody is helpful to you, with a wholesome picture (w/your dog/girlfriend/boyfriend etc)

Best of luck to you.

 

[navigator]

We do, but the match list only applies to those who've interviewed already at that point

Thanks for the help! Should I reach out to them in January, after the holidays? By then most of their interview spots would have been gone (although not all), but I still would technically be in the running for this cycle.

 

[gyngyn]

We do, but the match list only applies to those who've interviewed already at that point

Thanks for the help! Should I reach out to them in January, after the holidays? By then most of their interview spots would have been gone (although not all), but I still would technically be in the running for this cycle.

You are a fair to good candidate for TX schools though your clinical experience is a bit scanty.
If you have to re-apply, OOS DO in addition to your IS schools would be a preferred strategy.

 

[navigator]

Thanks gyngyn. I'll add DO (and possibly Carribean?) schools to my application list next cycle. Besides getting more clinical experience and increasing my GPA, is there anything I can do to increase my "fair to good" standing to "solid"?

 

[navigator]

double post- sorry!

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks gyngyn. I'll add DO (and possibly Carribean?) schools to my application list next cycle. Besides getting more clinical experience and increasing my GPA, is there anything I can do to increase my "fair to good" standing to "solid"?

No, no no!

 

[ddmbmom]

Just want to make sure you are aware UND, University of North Dakota, sets aside something like 7 seats for Native American students, 100% tuition paid, in case you are interested.

 

[QofQuimica]

Just want to make sure you are aware UND, University of North Dakota, sets aside something like 7 seats for Native American students, 100% tuition paid, in case you are interested.

I think he means Indian of ancestry from the country of India, not Native American.

OP, your stats are not rock star stellar, but they are solid for either MD or DO apps. I agree with gyngyn that your clinical experience was too weak, and this is likely your biggest issue with regard to your app. You need to start volunteering for a few hours per week in a clinical setting over the next year while you reapply. If you're having trouble getting a hospice or ER gig, try at your local nursing homes, free clinics, mental health programs, addiction centers, crisis hotlines, cancer centers, Planned Parenthood, Easter Seals Society, etc. There are lots of places besides the local ER where you can go to work with patients. Since you will now have a glide year, you could also consider paid clinical employment of some type, such as working as an MA or CNA if the training and licensing requirements in your state aren't too onerous.

Regarding your app strategy, you applied to way too few schools, and outside of TX, to the wrong schools. In your stat range, a reasonable number of schools would be more in the 20-25 range, not 13, and these OOS schools should not be "reach schools" for you. Get a hold of the MSAR if you haven't already, and use it to help you narrow down an appropriate school list. But in general, if you want to add some OOS allo schools, focus on schools in the Midwest, not on Cali schools; there is a reason why so many Californians are getting their MDs in places like Ohio and Michigan. Also, next time around, definitely apply to TCOM, and you can certainly add other DO schools as well if you want to broaden your app even more. Strongly agree with gyngyn that you should not apply to Caribbean schools, certainly not without at least one honest US re-app cycle to a minimum of two dozen schools after you've significantly strengthened your clinical experience.

Hope this helps, and best of luck.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Just want to make sure you are aware UND, University of North Dakota, sets aside something like 7 seats for Native American students, 100% tuition paid, in case you are interested.

I will add to this. University of New Mexico take Native American students too.

 

[navigator]

I think he means Indian of ancestry from the country of India, not Native American.

OP, your stats are not rock star stellar, but they are solid for either MD or DO apps. I agree with gyngyn that your clinical experience was too weak, and this is likely your biggest issue with regard to your app. You need to start volunteering for a few hours per week in a clinical setting over the next year while you reapply. If you're having trouble getting a hospice or ER gig, try at your local nursing homes, free clinics, mental health programs, addiction centers, crisis hotlines, cancer centers, Planned Parenthood, Easter Seals Society, etc. There are lots of places besides the local ER where you can go to work with patients. Since you will now have a glide year, you could also consider paid clinical employment of some type, such as working as an MA or CNA if the training and licensing requirements in your state aren't too onerous.

Regarding your app strategy, you applied to way too few schools, and outside of TX, to the wrong schools. In your stat range, a reasonable number of schools would be more in the 20-25 range, not 13, and these OOS schools should not be "reach schools" for you. Get a hold of the MSAR if you haven't already, and use it to help you narrow down an appropriate school list. But in general, if you want to add some OOS allo schools, focus on schools in the Midwest, not on Cali schools; there is a reason why so many Californians are getting their MDs in places like Ohio and Michigan. Also, next time around, definitely apply to TCOM, and you can certainly add other DO schools as well if you want to broaden your app even more. Strongly agree with gyngyn that you should not apply to Caribbean schools, certainly not without at least one honest US re-app cycle to a minimum of two dozen schools after you've significantly strengthened your clinical experience.

Hope this helps, and best of luck.

Thank you so much for the feedback! I really appreciate the list of clinical volunteering opportunities- that helps a lot. I'll start looking into more OOS allo schools with class profiles that are similar to mine.

And he's right, I'm Indian (from the subcontinent), not a native! Haha

 

[navigator]

No, no no!

Would anyone recommend applying to SMP programs for the possible gap year?

Although my stats aren't necessarily that low, I'm somewhat afraid that this cycle there were simply too many qualified applicants with higher stats (3.7+/32+) than mine, to an extent that my application might not have been thoroughly considered.

 

[navigator]

Ideal programs (due to family/location) are UTMB, UT-Houston, and UTHSC-San Antonio.

 

[navigator]

So as you all suggested, I got feedback from a couple of schools. TT-El Paso suggested I get more clinical experience (which I am doing- starting orientation as a hospice center this evening). They also suggested I increase the GPA as much as I can. UTMB said that my GPA is simply too low to be considered. The average GPA of those they interviewed this year was 3.9. She said that these same applicants received interviews across the state and that the other Texas medical schools would have similar numbers this year; my application, although looked at, wasn't considered competitive enough simply because of GPA alone. She seemed to imply that applying again, even with an increased GPA of 3.6, would be pointless.

I feel extremely dejected knowing this. Should I leave UTMB off my list when I apply again this year?

 

[gyngyn]

So as you all suggested, I got feedback from a couple of schools. TT-El Paso suggested I get more clinical experience (which I am doing- starting orientation as a hospice center this evening). They also suggested I increase the GPA as much as I can. UTMB said that my GPA is simply too low to be considered. The average GPA of those they interviewed this year was 3.9. She said that these same applicants received interviews across the state and that the other Texas medical schools would have similar numbers this year; my application, although looked at, wasn't considered competitive enough simply because of GPA alone. She seemed to imply that applying again, even with an increased GPA of 3.6, would be pointless.

I feel extremely dejected knowing this. Should I leave UTMB off my list when I apply again this year? This was one of my first-choice schools because my dad works at UTMB and it is an hour away from where I live.

You need to focus on schools that might interview you. You can still include "reaches". When you re-apply, add DO schools and you will find more success.

 

[DrMidlife]

So as you all suggested, I got feedback from a couple of schools. TT-El Paso suggested I get more clinical experience (which I am doing- starting orientation as a hospice center this evening). They also suggested I increase the GPA as much as I can. UTMB said that my GPA is simply too low to be considered. The average GPA of those they interviewed this year was 3.9. She said that these same applicants received interviews across the state and that the other Texas medical schools would have similar numbers this year; my application, although looked at, wasn't considered competitive enough simply because of GPA alone. She seemed to imply that applying again, even with an increased GPA of 3.6, would be pointless.

I feel extremely dejected knowing this. Should I leave UTMB off my list when I apply again this year? This was one of my first-choice schools because my dad works at UTMB and it is an hour away from where I live.

I think you're overreacting to what UTMB said. I don't buy that UTMB didn't interview any 3.6's. I don't buy that you were told not to bother. But if you want to get into UTMB or a similarly competitive school, then think like a Californian and put a lot more than just 6 months into improving your app.

 

[gyngyn]

I think you're overreacting to what UTMB said. I don't buy that UTMB didn't interview any 3.6's. I don't buy that you were told not to bother. But if you want to get into UTMB or a similarly competitive school, then think like a Californian and put a lot more than just 6 months into improving your app.

I like that.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think you're overreacting to what UTMB said. I don't buy that UTMB didn't interview any 3.6's. I don't buy that you were told not to bother. But if you want to get into UTMB or a similarly competitive school, then think like a Californian and put a lot more than just 6 months into improving your app.

I don't believe that either. UTMB's own website says that the average GPA was a 3.8, so either the woman mis-spoke, the OP misunderstood, or a bunch of those 3.9+ GPA folks they interviewed decided to matriculate elsewhere.

That being said, OP, it still behooves you to improve your app as much as possible, and to cast your net wider as we discussed previously. You know that your clinical experience was subpar, and you're taking steps to improve that, which is good. And while your current GPA isn't horrible, bringing it up to a 3.6 can only help you, even if you're still below average at UTMB. In spite of what you were told over the phone, I would say that if you're interested in attending UTMB, yes, you should apply there. But again, you will have a much higher chance of success of getting accepted to med school if, along with all of the TX schools, you also apply to a dozen Midwestern allo schools/DO schools/a mixture of both.

 

[navigator]

Thank you all for your feedback! I've tried to improve my app as much as possible in the past few months through clinical volunteering (6 hours/week) and focusing on schoolwork. I am also continuing to train for the ride (roughly 15 hours/week) and research (roughly 8 hours/week). Also, my gap year plan is to either volunteer with AmeriCorps or City Year as a student teacher or teacher assistant for special needs kids.

Here's a list of the schools I am potentially applying to. Is this a suitable list for my situation? I want to limit myself to 25 schools (13 of which are in Texas) so I'll need help narrowing this down please!

All Texas schools, plus

South Alabama
UC Davis
George Washington
Rosalind Franklin
Rush Medical College
Univ of Illinois at Chicago
Indiana University SOM
Tulane University
Michigan State University College of Human Medicine
University of Minnesota Medical School
Albany Medical College
New York Medical College
Univ of Buffalo
University of Toledo
Drexel University
Jefferson Medical College
Pennsylvania State
Temple University
Eastern Virginia Medical School
Creighton
West Virginia
Tufts University - reach
UCSF - reach
Mayo - reach
Wake Forest - reach
Michigan - reach
Rowan
NYCOM
PCOM
CCOM

 

[DrMidlife]

You have public med schools outside your home state on that list. Mistake. As I mentioned above with UCSF, OOS publics bear no responsibility for you. None. Many of these schools will take OOS students who have exceptionally high numbers and compelling stories. 3.55 and 31 will not get you far in those pools.

And you absolutely must consider cost of attendance. A Texas school will most likely come in under $150k for 4 years, including living expenses. You have one school on your list that will come in over $400k. THIS MATTERS.

The MSAR will tell you what percentage of the MD class is from out of state, which is helpful, but you can't get info on the stats of those OOS students. Not to be overly cynical, but it's pretty much a revenue source to collect lots of OOS apps from kids who have no chance at all.

So there's a nice fat slice off your list.

Best of luck to you.

 

[gyngyn]

Only 193/3870 TX applicants matriculated OOS last year.
You need to focus on getting into your state schools (including TCOM).
Very few schools interview TX applicants because the yield is so low.

 

[navigator]

You have public med schools outside your home state on that list. Mistake. As I mentioned above with UCSF, OOS publics bear no responsibility for you. None. Many of these schools will take OOS students who have exceptionally high numbers and compelling stories. 3.55 and 31 will not get you far in those pools.

And you absolutely must consider cost of attendance. A Texas school will most likely come in under $150k for 4 years, including living expenses. You have one school on your list that will come in over $400k. THIS MATTERS.

The MSAR will tell you what percentage of the MD class is from out of state, which is helpful, but you can't get info on the stats of those OOS students. Not to be overly cynical, but it's pretty much a revenue source to collect lots of OOS apps from kids who have no chance at all.

So there's a nice fat slice off your list.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for your feedback on the school list! I have updated grades from this past year (delayed graduation to boost those GPAs), but due to circumstances out of my control, this semester went completely awry. I've had my transcripts immediately sent out to AMCAS for addition to my 2016 application before grades were posted for the current semester (which is fine according to their website).

However, TMDSAS requires Spring 2015 grades for an application to be complete. My Spring 2015 grades bring my sGPA and cGPA to lower than what I had in the previous application.

How can I show a willingness to move outside of Texas to these non-TMDSAS schools?

 

[gyngyn]

How can I show a willingness to move outside of Texas to these non-TMDSAS schools?

With an extremely low yield on TX applicants (probably non-detectable at your stats), OOS MD schools are very unlikely to interview you! We know that you have better odds in TX and so much cheaper to boot! Your situation is the exact reverse of CA applicants for whom the large majority leave the state for medical school.

As I mentioned earlier, only 193/3870 TX applicants matriculated OOS. This is by far the lowest yield from any state. We know this. The resources for interviews are limited. There is no reason to interview people who will not come if they are admitted in TX. Those 193 were either independently wealthy and well qualified and/or received a hefty inducement to attend.

 

[DrMidlife]

How can I show a willingness to move outside of Texas to these non-TMDSAS schools?

You're way out on a limb that's cracking off its tree in a strong wind, grabbing for a kite with a wire frame that's about to be struck by lighting, and that kite string is in the hand of an easily distracted 4 year old with a dripping popsicle who is about to get stung by a hornet.

Feedback from your state's med schools was: raise your GPA.
What you didn't do this year: raise your GPA.
What you would have needed to do to be successful in a reapp in Texas: raise your GPA.
What you would also have needed to do to be successful in a reapp outside Texas: raise your GPA.

Your non-Texas MD school list still includes OOS publics. Please reread what was said in this thread about applying to OOS publics with below-average numbers. Hint: don't.

Your non-Texas MD school list, other than the OOS publics, is made up of the schools that get over 10,000 apps, because lower stats students believe they have a chance. Hint: pretty much not.

This year didn't work out. You can try for DO schools this year if you like. If you insist on MD schools, then for the love of all that's holy please listen to gyngyn and me when we repeatedly, earnestly tell you that going after non-Texas med schools is RIDICULOUS. If you want a good chance at MD schools, then FOCUS ON TEXAS and succeed at what you tried to do this year: put in a year of strong academic work, such as at an SMP, and get your MCAT up.

Best of luck to you.

 

[QofQuimica]

Dude, what the heck happened here? You knew bringing your grades up this semester was important; what were you doing that you wound up with nearly straight Bs, even in fluffy classes like "Rhetoric of Hip-Hop"?

I can only conclude that what it comes down to is that you're not ready for med school. So I'm going to suggest that you take a step back here and sit out for a year, maybe two, or five, before you try again. Honestly, it's ok to take some time off. There's no rush. Get a job, make some money, see what it's like to work a 9-5 for a while. In a few years when you're ready to buckle down and get serious about doing what it takes to get into med school, then you can think about a post bac or SMP. But for now, get out into the working world, give yourself some time to mature a bit, and stop digging yourself further into the hole.

 

[navigator]

Thanks for the help! I applied to in-state and OOS schools and explained my personal circumstances in the primary app. Luckily I got two IIs so far!

I rewrote everything, including personal statement, applied broadly, and got letters from professors and PIs that could vouch for me extensively. Will update you all!

 

[whatsupdr]

Hey all, thanks for the insight. I went ahead with a pretty late application, thorns and all, after my transcontinental bike tour. Luckily I got two IIs in-state so far: 1 MD, 1 DO. I was completely devastated by my performance last semester but redrafted... everything, including personal statement, and got letters from professors and PIs that could vouch for me extensively. Also, I applied VERY broadly to a lot of schools. I hope that makes a difference this cycle, and if not, I'm planning to research for a couple of years, take some more science courses, and apply again.

Current GPA: 3.47 science, 3.52 overall

Good Luck!!

 

[gyngyn]

Hey all, thanks for the insight. I went ahead with a pretty late application, thorns and all, after my transcontinental bike tour. Luckily I got two IIs in-state so far: 1 MD, 1 DO. I was completely devastated by my performance last semester but redrafted... everything, including personal statement, and got letters from professors and PIs that could vouch for me extensively. Also, I applied VERY broadly to a lot of schools. I hope that makes a difference this cycle, and if not, I'm planning to research for a couple of years, take some more science courses, and apply again.

Current GPA: 3.47 science, 3.52 overall

Please let us know if you get an OOS MD interview!

 

[Faha]

I hope you applied to Dell and Rio Grande, the 2 new Texas public schools.

 

[navigator]

Please let us know if you get an OOS MD interview!

I called EVMS yesterday, and it looks like I'm in their interview batch! Interviews are filled till mid-Dec so I probably won't be visiting Norfolk till Jan-Feb though

 

[navigator]

I definitely did, but Dell is uber competitive and is looking for UTSW/BCM-like applicants because their curriculum is 1 year preclinical, 1 year clinical, 1 year research, and 1 year residency preparation/clinical. UTRGV seems to also be focusing on applicants that are from the Valley unfortunately, but you never know I guess.

 

[whatsupdr]

I called EVMS yesterday, and it looks like I'm in their interview batch! Interviews are filled till mid-Dec so I probably won't be visiting Norfolk till Jan-Feb though

Thats great news!

 

[navigator]

The EVMS interview day was absolutely incredible. I found myself completely in love with the school, the community focus, the new curriculum, and the overall feel. The only downside is the (insane!) cost.

As for the best news, I received a prematch offer in Texas! Thanks for the help everyone! I'm going to be a doctor!!

 

[QofQuimica]

Awesome, congrats.

Does EVMS give scholarships? If not, and if you/your parents aren't independently wealthy, then stay in TX. Believe me, when you get to my point in life, you will be glad you avoided all that extra debt when you had the chance.

 

[DrMidlife]

EVMS scholarships for out of staters come in $2500 or $5000 chunks. We've got a whole lot of military HPSP folks. https://www.evms.edu/education/fina...nstitutional_scholarships/school_of_medicine/

EVMS tuition is $60k per year or so. https://www.evms.edu/education/fina...ce/doctor_of_medicine/doctor_of_medicine_coa/

Keep your fingers crossed for Texas. EVMS graduates more and more $500k debtors every year.

 

[navigator]

Awesome, congrats.

Does EVMS give scholarships? If not, and if you/your parents aren't independently wealthy, then stay in TX. Believe me, when you get to my point in life, you will be glad you avoided all that extra debt when you had the chance.

EVMS scholarships for out of staters come in $2500 or $5000 chunks. We've got a whole lot of military HPSP folks. https://www.evms.edu/education/fina...nstitutional_scholarships/school_of_medicine/

EVMS tuition is $60k per year or so. https://www.evms.edu/education/fina...ce/doctor_of_medicine/doctor_of_medicine_coa/

Keep your fingers crossed for Texas. EVMS graduates more and more $500k debtors every year.

From what I heard, they don't really give out scholarships to OOS students, and once I factor in COL I'd be paying roughly $85k/year. I just found out that I'm at the "bottom of the upper third" on their waitlist, which starts moving in April or so. I think I loved EVMS the most out of all 3 schools I've interviewed at so far! I'll def look into those mini-scholarships again if I get in.

And from what I heard they don't even distribute financial aid packages until the first semester in? Seems like a really bizarre policy. Definitely crossing my fingers for a UTRGV acceptance, which would cost me a little over $3k in tuition/year!

 

[DrMidlife]

Oh hey I did warn you. Almost a year ago.

A Texas school will most likely come in under $150k for 4 years, including living expenses. You have one school on your list that will come in over $400k. THIS MATTERS.

Guess which school that was.

From what I heard, they don't really give out scholarships to OOS students

What's the point in saying "from what I heard" when you have an actual EVMS M4 responding to you, with a link to the list of scholarships that are available? I don't get it.

I'm OOS and I get at least one of these little scholarships every year.

And from what I heard they don't even distribute financial aid packages until the first semester in?

Two separate things: your award notice and money into your bank. 1) Award notices come in the spring, maybe late spring, after FAFSA triggers the federal lending process, and after your institutional aid application is received and dealt with. 2) Money into your bank can take up to a month after school starts, so you have to cover moving expenses & rental startup costs on your own. This is specific to EVMS, I have no idea about other schools' schedules.

BTW if you're not URM and your stats are below average, you're not one of the people that med schools offer free money to in order to attract you to come. There's exactly no other motivation when schools offer free money. Non-URMs with low GPAs can be pulled off the waitlist indefinitely when somebody gives up a seat.

I'd have to do some more research to determine if the extra hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt would be worth the MD rather than DO letters behind my name, esp. since I'm interested in pursuing oncology. Definitely crossing my fingers for an in-state MD acceptance! UTRGV would cost me a little over $3k in tuition/year.

The extra hundreds of thousands are certainly NOT worth it. No way, no how. As we've been telling you, consistently, from multiple posters, for over a year: focus on Texas.

Regardless of what happens this app year, get off your fanny and work on the issues that the Texas schools advised you to work on (GPA), so that you're ready to apply again in May with better chances at Texas schools. Yes. Really.

 

[navigator]

What's the point in saying "from what I heard" when you have an actual EVMS M4 responding to you, with a link to the list of scholarships that are available? I don't get it.

Thanks for the information! I was responding to two posters, not just you, and one of them asked about out-of-state scholarships.

Regardless of what happens this app year, get off your fanny and work on the issues that the Texas schools advised you to work on (GPA), so that you're ready to apply again in May with better chances at Texas schools.

The Texas public schools are all on the same application. Why apply again if I already got in?