Audition rotations as DO student

[MixerDO]

How important is it for a DO student to do an audition rotation at MD schools? I'm a 3rd year DO student, I have low board scores but >200 for step 1, I'm taking step 2 early.

I have psych related research experience with multiple abstracts/conference presentations, but no full papers published. I'm struggling with figuring out where I stand and which programs would be necessary to try to do a rotation at to get my foot in the door. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

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[MacDonaldTriad]

“Audition” rotation is a term generated by undergraduate medical education, but not necessarily recognized by graduate medical education. In other words, the infrastructure that operates the Sub-Is isn’t necessarily very connected to the residency program. Sub-Is can get your foot in the door if you have a very specific place in mind, but you can only do this at one or two places at most. I’m sure some programs watch sub-Is very carefully and others are not paying much attention. I think the answer is that it really depends.

Please don’t assume that doing a sub-I is a guaranteed interview. If you haven’t gotten a yes or a no for an interview and you are doing a rotation during interview season, you might politely ask if you can be considered while you are there because of travel costs.

What you really don’t want to do is complain out loud; “if I’m not going to be interviewed why am I wasting my time here?”
The answer will be; “for the excellent teaching and clinical experience we are providing you of course.”

 

[wolfvgang22]

I did a Sub-I at Dartmouth. Parlayed that into an interview at both Dartmouth and Univ. of Vermont adult and child programs, as well as a couple of programs in New York, just by sending an email and politely expressing interest. I told them I am from out west and was interested in visiting with them while I was in the region. The program directors and staff were very gracious and appreciated my interest. I most likely would not have gotten those interviews otherwise.

 

[heyjack70]

I think for psych the personality of the person is important for programs. If you can do an audition, this shows you are interested in their program and if you work hard you might be able to get a letter of recommendation from one of the attendings. Or at least an email or phone call from the attending to the PD, if the attending likes you. I you can get an attending, or residents also on service, to vouch for you that is very helpful.

 

[Mass Effect]

“Audition” rotation is a term generated by undergraduate medical education, but not necessarily recognized by graduate medical education. In other words, the infrastructure that operates the Sub-Is isn’t necessarily very connected to the residency program. Sub-Is can get your foot in the door if you have a very specific place in mind, but you can only do this at one or two places at most. I’m sure some programs watch sub-Is very carefully and others are not paying much attention. I think the answer is that it really depends.

Please don’t assume that doing a sub-I is a guaranteed interview. If you haven’t gotten a yes or a no for an interview and you are doing a rotation during interview season, you might politely ask if you can be considered while you are there because of travel costs.

What you really don’t want to do is complain out loud; “if I’m not going to be interviewed why am I wasting my time here?”
The answer will be; “for the excellent teaching and clinical experience we are providing you of course.”

I did two Sub-Is and a number of auditions. OP, it all depends on where you want to go and how badly you want to go there. I found one place that had a rotation where you rotated directly with the PD for part of the rotation. At another place, the attending liked me and personally introduced me to the PD and the chair of the department before interview invites even went out. I spent most of my fourth year on the road because I had specific places I wanted to end up and I wanted to have a choice. If you don't really care where you end up, then you most likely will not need to do auditions for psychiatry. But if you have places or a region in mind, the more auditions you can afford to do, the better.

 

[johnhoedack]

I've also heard many horror stories where an audition rotation clearly did the right opposite. A friend of mine who I would've thought would do great on a sub-I for some reason really rubbed the attending wrong. When they went to go ask for a letter of rec the attending refused and made it abundantly clear that the student "wasn't material" for their program. Be careful. Audition rotations are not necessary in psych and can easily backfire even if you're otherwise a good candidate.

 

[MixerDO]

I've also heard many horror stories where an audition rotation clearly did the right opposite. A friend of mine who I would've thought would do great on a sub-I for some reason really rubbed the attending wrong. When they went to go ask for a letter of rec the attending refused and made it abundantly clear that the student "wasn't material" for their program. Be careful. Audition rotations are not necessary in psych and can easily backfire even if you're otherwise a good candidate.

Yah that's what I worry about, I've never really rubbed anyone the wrong way yet, that I know of at least

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Yah that's what I worry about, I've never really rubbed anyone the wrong way yet, that I know of at least

I'd rather "rub someone the wrong way" and not end up at a residency. Than rub that person the wrong way and have them be one of my attendings for 4 years.

 

[MixerDO]

I'd rather "rub someone the wrong way" and not end up at a residency. Then rub that person the wrong way and have them be one of my attendings for 4 years

Touché!

 

[johnhoedack]

Touché!

Not necessarily. It could be one attending out of 200 and never really make a difference outside of this. I don't think there is anywhere that you will love every single attending.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I've also heard many horror stories where an audition rotation clearly did the right opposite. A friend of mine who I would've thought would do great on a sub-I for some reason really rubbed the attending wrong. When they went to go ask for a letter of rec the attending refused and made it abundantly clear that the student "wasn't material" for their program. Be careful. Audition rotations are not necessary in psych and can easily backfire even if you're otherwise a good candidate.

This is more or less advice for people that don't know how to be enthusiastic, hard workers, that show a true interest in Psych. I think the above advice is horrible and wish I would have done more sub-I's.

I think as a DO student you'll get your foot in the door of more MD residencies by rotating. I know a classmate of mine who did a rotation at UCSF and got an interview there, while I was passed over (all things being more or less equal...if anything I was the better app on paper).

I think Mass Effect's advice is spot on

 

[scoobyer3]

I know one case where an audition is important part of receiving an interview. From what I've seen this year( I guess someone can correct me if I'm wrong), only DO applicants who auditioned at UCLA Harbor received interviews. I haven't heard of a DO applicant who got an interview at UCLA Harbor without rotating there..n size is small though haha.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I know one case where an audition is important part of receiving an interview. From what I've seen this year( I guess someone can correct me if I'm wrong), only DO applicants who auditioned at UCLA Harbor received interviews. I haven't heard of a DO applicant who got an interview at UCLA Harbor without rotating there..n size is small though haha.

For the university based CA residencies, it appears this way.

 

[MixerDO]

Yah I always figured CA based residencies were unattainable as a DO, I don't have any ties in that region so I'm not really gunning for them

 

[psychattending]

How important is it for a DO student to do an audition rotation at MD schools? I'm a 3rd year DO student, I have low board scores but >200 for step 1, I'm taking step 2 early.

I have psych related research experience with multiple abstracts/conference presentations, but no full papers published. I'm struggling with figuring out where I stand and which programs would be necessary to try to do a rotation at to get my foot in the door. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

I would say that doing a sub-I is a good thing for somebody like that, especially if you are looking at a program that has not taken DOs from your school. Not only does it give the program a more detailed look at you (and you at them), but it also indicates to the program that you have a significant interest in them. Knowing that you are interested in them will substantially increase the likelihood that you would give an interview there.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yah I always figured CA based residencies were unattainable as a DO, I don't have any ties in that region so I'm not really gunning for them

They're not unattainable. They're just competitive.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

They're not unattainable. They're just competitive.

And probably require a sub-i.

 

[psych72]

If you're thinking California, I would definitely suggest an audition rotation at some of the less competitive places. I would also really recommend having a USMLE score for anything in California.
Arizona and Nevada are more forgiving in my opinion.

 

[prone2xl]

I am a 4th year D.O. student and just matched at my #1 in psych and I did one audition rotation (not at the place I matched). It's funny b/c in the DO world that's what we're told it's called, but when I was introducing myself to the group on orientation day and said that I was from _____ school and was there for an audition rotation they all were like wtf is that!? I think in the MD world they call it "away rotations" and we just get told it's called audition. I will say for AOA residencies an audition seems to be important for fields like Ortho and EM which are super competitive. I did an EM audition at an osteopathic location just to see if I loved EM enough to apply to it. I felt that if I happened to love it, I might as well have done an audition in it at a place where I could possibly get a residency "just in case". It's so tough in the DO world I think, in that you basically have to go all in if you want one of those super competitive fields. Psych was very competitive this year and I know some people who didn't match or had to scramble into something else or a transition year. I'd say the best piece of advice I could give an incoming 4th year DO student is to do an away rotation at an MD spot you're interested in and be very enthusiastic and get along well with the residents and meet as many attendings as you can who might be interviewing you later. I'd apply very broadly and I'd attend as many interviews as you can. I stress this b/c I know someone who ranked 7 MD places and cancelled at least 2 or 3 interviews b/c they thought they were a lock and they ended up not matching in the MD match and having to scramble to a less desirable AOA location which is just starting their first year as a program. Rank every place you interview at and understand that you may fall very low on your list... This is becoming a VERY competitive field and I only anticipate it becoming even more so in years to come! Best of Luck and you can do this!!!

 

[Dharma]

I am a 4th year D.O. student and just matched at my #1 in psych and I did one audition rotation (not at the place I matched). It's funny b/c in the DO world that's what we're told it's called, but when I was introducing myself to the group on orientation day and said that I was from _____ school and was there for an audition rotation they all were like wtf is that!? I think in the MD world they call it "away rotations" and we just get told it's called audition. I will say for AOA residencies an audition seems to be important for fields like Ortho and EM which are super competitive. I did an EM audition at an osteopathic location just to see if I loved EM enough to apply to it. I felt that if I happened to love it, I might as well have done an audition in it at a place where I could possibly get a residency "just in case". It's so tough in the DO world I think, in that you basically have to go all in if you want one of those super competitive fields. Psych was very competitive this year and I know some people who didn't match or had to scramble into something else or a transition year. I'd say the best piece of advice I could give an incoming 4th year DO student is to do an away rotation at an MD spot you're interested in and be very enthusiastic and get along well with the residents and meet as many attendings as you can who might be interviewing you later. I'd apply very broadly and I'd attend as many interviews as you can. I stress this b/c I know someone who ranked 7 MD places and cancelled at least 2 or 3 interviews b/c they thought they were a lock and they ended up not matching in the MD match and having to scramble to a less desirable AOA location which is just starting their first year as a program. Rank every place you interview at and understand that you may fall very low on your list... This is becoming a VERY competitive field and I only anticipate it becoming even more so in years to come! Best of Luck and you can do this!!!

I'm not sure if it's becoming "VERY" competitive but it certainly isn't any easier to match. I know more than a few DO students who didn't rotate at the MD programs they ended up matching at (some of which are pretty solid places). Point being, while it's certainly good to rotate at a place of interest (and shine instead of shooting oneself in the foot) it isn't a necessity at many good programs. In more desirable locales and programs different story.

 

[psych72]

I am a 4th year D.O. student and just matched at my #1 in psych and I did one audition rotation (not at the place I matched). It's funny b/c in the DO world that's what we're told it's called, but when I was introducing myself to the group on orientation day and said that I was from _____ school and was there for an audition rotation they all were like wtf is that!? I think in the MD world they call it "away rotations" and we just get told it's called audition. I will say for AOA residencies an audition seems to be important for fields like Ortho and EM which are super competitive. I did an EM audition at an osteopathic location just to see if I loved EM enough to apply to it. I felt that if I happened to love it, I might as well have done an audition in it at a place where I could possibly get a residency "just in case". It's so tough in the DO world I think, in that you basically have to go all in if you want one of those super competitive fields. Psych was very competitive this year and I know some people who didn't match or had to scramble into something else or a transition year. I'd say the best piece of advice I could give an incoming 4th year DO student is to do an away rotation at an MD spot you're interested in and be very enthusiastic and get along well with the residents and meet as many attendings as you can who might be interviewing you later. I'd apply very broadly and I'd attend as many interviews as you can. I stress this b/c I know someone who ranked 7 MD places and cancelled at least 2 or 3 interviews b/c they thought they were a lock and they ended up not matching in the MD match and having to scramble to a less desirable AOA location which is just starting their first year as a program. Rank every place you interview at and understand that you may fall very low on your list... This is becoming a VERY competitive field and I only anticipate it becoming even more so in years to come! Best of Luck and you can do this!!!

You are very lucky to have gotten your number 1. I know several people, myself included, who were not that fortunate. I think location plays a great deal. In general anything in the West Coast and even Southwest was competitive this year. To future applicants...Definitely do look at how competitive you are though as an applicant, USMLE is a biggy for some programs that I applied to.

I am glad to have a job since I needed to pay back my huge loans...but it will be a big adventure for me moving away from my surroundings for my whole life.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

OK DOs here are some 2014 numbers. People say the West is more competitive but Nevada had 10 psych positions and 8 where filled with DOs. In Arizona, it was 9 of 22. Looking at the states with the overall largest number of DOs, New York had 17 of 188, California had 12 of 137, Texas had 12 of 83, and Pennsylvania had 11 of 62. Overall there were 154 out of 1296 matches for 11.9%.

My conclusion is that you can rank 7 places and not get in if you choose the most unlikely 7 places. If you include places with the highest IMG% like Mississippi, Kansas, Kentucky, or Oklahoma (83%, 75%, 56%, 67%), it would be hard not to match. Just do some of both.

 

[psych72]

OK DOs here are some 2014 numbers. People say the West is more competitive but Nevada had 10 psych positions and 8 where filled with DOs. In Arizona, it was 9 of 22. Looking at the states with the overall largest number of DOs, New York had 17 of 188, California had 12 of 137, Texas had 12 of 83, and Pennsylvania had 11 of 62. Overall there were 154 out of 1296 matches for 11.9%.

My conclusion is that you can rank 7 places and not get in if you choose the most unlikely 7 places. If you include places with the highest IMG% like Mississippi, Kansas, Kentucky, or Oklahoma (83%, 75%, 56%, 67%), it would be hard not to match. Just do some of both.

This is true as well and I agree with your second statement regarding the highest IMG%, which is where I'm headed.

But you also need to take into account that those who matched out west (AZ and Nevada), were probably good applicants who either had USMLE or reasonably high COMLEX scores (550+) without any red flags.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I am a 4th year D.O. student and just matched at my #1 in psych and I did one audition rotation (not at the place I matched). It's funny b/c in the DO world that's what we're told it's called, but when I was introducing myself to the group on orientation day and said that I was from _____ school and was there for an audition rotation they all were like wtf is that!? I think in the MD world they call it "away rotations" and we just get told it's called audition. I will say for AOA residencies an audition seems to be important for fields like Ortho and EM which are super competitive. I did an EM audition at an osteopathic location just to see if I loved EM enough to apply to it. I felt that if I happened to love it, I might as well have done an audition in it at a place where I could possibly get a residency "just in case". It's so tough in the DO world I think, in that you basically have to go all in if you want one of those super competitive fields. Psych was very competitive this year and I know some people who didn't match or had to scramble into something else or a transition year. I'd say the best piece of advice I could give an incoming 4th year DO student is to do an away rotation at an MD spot you're interested in and be very enthusiastic and get along well with the residents and meet as many attendings as you can who might be interviewing you later. I'd apply very broadly and I'd attend as many interviews as you can. I stress this b/c I know someone who ranked 7 MD places and cancelled at least 2 or 3 interviews b/c they thought they were a lock and they ended up not matching in the MD match and having to scramble to a less desirable AOA location which is just starting their first year as a program. Rank every place you interview at and understand that you may fall very low on your list... This is becoming a VERY competitive field and I only anticipate it becoming even more so in years to come! Best of Luck and you can do this!!!

How many of these places were in cali?

 

[prone2xl]

I don't think any

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

U

OK DOs here are some 2014 numbers. People say the West is more competitive but Nevada had 10 psych positions and 8 where filled with DOs. In Arizona, it was 9 of 22. Looking at the states with the overall largest number of DOs, New York had 17 of 188, California had 12 of 137, Texas had 12 of 83, and Pennsylvania had 11 of 62. Overall there were 154 out of 1296 matches for 11.9%.

My conclusion is that you can rank 7 places and not get in if you choose the most unlikely 7 places. If you include places with the highest IMG% like Mississippi, Kansas, Kentucky, or Oklahoma (83%, 75%, 56%, 67%), it would be hard not to match. Just do some of both.

617 comlex 1 695 comlex 2 253 usmle 1. No red flags and PE was done before interview season. Got rejected pre interview from multiple cali places, Arizona tucson, new mexico. Ranked utah 1 uw 2 didn't match either. Most people I meet say I'm very personable, but to be fair I bungled the uw interview due to nerves.
Sure it isn't competitive if your willing to settle for a less impressive residency, or you could go Midwest or south and get comparable training with lesser numbers.
Please don't tell me the west wasn't competitive this year.

 

[HappyKitten]

U
617 comlex 1 695 comlex 2 253 usmle 1. No red flags and PE was done before interview season. Got rejected pre interview from multiple cali places, Arizona tucson, new mexico. Ranked utah 1 uw 2 didn't match either. Most people I meet say I'm very personable, but to be fair I bungled the uw interview due to nerves.
Sure it isn't competitive if your willing to settle for a less impressive residency, or you could go Midwest or south and get comparable training with lesser numbers.
Please don't tell me the west wasn't competitive this year.

Good god...253 and you didn't match your top choice ?! I better look for more programs to apply to.

 

[psych72]

U
617 comlex 1 695 comlex 2 253 usmle 1. No red flags and PE was done before interview season. Got rejected pre interview from multiple cali places, Arizona tucson, new mexico. Ranked utah 1 uw 2 didn't match either. Most people I meet say I'm very personable, but to be fair I bungled the uw interview due to nerves.
Sure it isn't competitive if your willing to settle for a less impressive residency, or you could go Midwest or south and get comparable training with lesser numbers.
Please don't tell me the west wasn't competitive this year.

The West, especially Cali, was competitive as well this year because a lot of Loma Linda Students went into Psychiatry this year. Seeing as though most programs have usually 4-6 slots, this did kind of shake up some of the South Cali places that were usually a little DO friendly IMO. I don't know if it was a significant factor , but a lot of ppl are leaning towards psych.

 

[Dharma]

U
617 comlex 1 695 comlex 2 253 usmle 1. No red flags and PE was done before interview season. Got rejected pre interview from multiple cali places, Arizona tucson, new mexico. Ranked utah 1 uw 2 didn't match either. Most people I meet say I'm very personable, but to be fair I bungled the uw interview due to nerves.
Sure it isn't competitive if your willing to settle for a less impressive residency, or you could go Midwest or south and get comparable training with lesser numbers.
Please don't tell me the west wasn't competitive this year.

Wow! Tucson and NM have been pretty "DO friendly" as well. 253? Damn! How many places did you end up ranking and how far down did you go? 3 on the match?

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I wasn’t trying to suggest that California wasn’t competitive, but there are DO friendly states in the West.

I am a little surprised by your experience MLT2, you sound like a solid candidate. I hope you wind up in a good place.

I was hoping some concrete numbers would paint an accurate picture. California matches 9% DO, and the average is about 12%.

Happy Kitten, higher numbers do provide some safety, but be sure to include some higher probability places and mix them in with some of your highest hopes. There are some solid places with good training but not that much fame.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Wow! Tucson and NM have been pretty "DO friendly" as well. 253? Damn! How many places did you end up ranking and how far down did you go? 3 on the match?

Ranked 9, was pretty positive I wouldn't drop below 3, this made my decision between 3 and 4 excruciating for me.
I'll be interested in seeing Utah's match list, I got the feeling they are trying to shed their underdog status of the west and are doing this by making a pretty resident list with everyone having "M.D." after their name. And at UW I was far from my best at the interview. My number 3 was an excellent mix of my one and two minus the location.

Overall I was more surprised at some of the lack of interviews than where I matched.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I’m fairly sure Utah’s joining the Pac 12 will keep them in underdog status for a long time to come. If you are an avid skier, you have permission to lament not getting in there for a day or two, otherwise the sea is full of comparable fish and I’m sure you will be fine where you ended up. The quality of teaching at a program has less to do with the preparation for independent practice than the motivation and effort of the student. If you focus and work at it, you will be fine at most places.

 

[Dharma]

The first thing I thought of when I saw that emoji is: .


Some of the younger (and duller) probably not gonna recognize that.

 

[psych72]

U
617 comlex 1 695 comlex 2 253 usmle 1. No red flags and PE was done before interview season. Got rejected pre interview from multiple cali places, Arizona tucson, new mexico. Ranked utah 1 uw 2 didn't match either. Most people I meet say I'm very personable, but to be fair I bungled the uw interview due to nerves.
Sure it isn't competitive if your willing to settle for a less impressive residency, or you could go Midwest or south and get comparable training with lesser numbers.
Please don't tell me the west wasn't competitive this year.

I'm shocked you got rejected from Arizona and New Mexico. Utah makes sense since they aren't too DO friendly, but did you try the South Campus?

Your stats are stellar by the way, kudos to you! I hope you landed one of your top choices.

 

[Mass Effect]

This is true as well and I agree with your second statement regarding the highest IMG%, which is where I'm headed.

But you also need to take into account that those who matched out west (AZ and Nevada), were probably good applicants who either had USMLE or reasonably high COMLEX scores (550+) without any red flags.

Are AZ and NV really that in-demand? Cali I can see, but AZ and NV?

 

[psych72]

Are AZ and NV really that in-demand? Cali I can see, but AZ and NV?

Again it depends on your total application. But these states are still in warmer climates and desirable locales, plus the AZ programs are all pretty sweet

Honestly, I have to deal with southern humidity for the first time in my life this summer and Im already getting hot flashes just thinking about it

 

[Dharma]

Is 550 COMLEX reasonable high?

 

[psych72]

Is 550 COMLEX reasonable high? Sounds a blip above average.

500+ is what you need in general. If you have less than that I recommend looking at quality DO programs as opposed to landing some crappy Malignant MD place

 

[HappyKitten]

500+ is what you need in general. If you have less than that I recommend looking at quality DO programs as opposed to landing some crappy Malignant MD place

So which ones are the "quality DO programs"?

 

[psych72]

My opinion of course but I liked pine rest and Good Samaritan. I don't know about the Dallas one, but I think the dually accredited ones are of good quality.

EDIT: So if you get what I'm saying its really the combined MD/DO ones that are good. I didn't go to the pure DO ones.

I also think the Pine Rest one is affiliated with MSU (not 100% sure though). Honestly, the residents seemed so happy and well balanced there.

 

[Shikima]

Isn't this moot now with the MD/DO residencies being combined?

 

[Dharma]

Isn't this moot now with the MD/DO residencies being combined?

They're a ways off from combining. Programs are in the process of accreditation (or applying for such) and some will face the prospect of closing shop if they are not up to ACGME standards, some of which will include not just standard of education/training but also how the program operates. I doubt we will see much in terms of so-called merged programs until the early 2020s.

That leaves one wondering if he or she is taking a risk by ranking some of those AOA programs with shaky reputations since they could very likely face a shut down. Let's say a 2016 grad matches at a program that could be on the chopping block. He finishes residency in 2020... and the program chains its doors in 2022. How does that look on one's CV years down the line? (Didn't this happen with Saint Vincent downtown Manhattan a few years back? But then again, they closed because of financial reasons, so that's different, I'm thinking). Anyhow, I may be sliding along the slippery slope there, but it's certainly worth thinking about.

 

[hoodwinkd]

500+ is what you need in general. If you have less than that I recommend looking at quality DO programs as opposed to landing some crappy Malignant MD place

Based on the experience of many colleagues, plenty of non-malignant MD programs will consider applicants with lower step scores if you are serious about psych. That is, don't take yourself out of the picture just because you got a 450 instead of a 500! I think OP makes a compelling argument with their past work in psychiatry. Also on the same note, just because a program is listed on FREIDA or their website as a cutoff of say, 450, that's not always set in stone and individuals have received invites despite not meeting the cutoff. The worst thing you could do is not even try for a program you're really interested in.

 

[Mass Effect]

500+ is what you need in general. If you have less than that I recommend looking at quality DO programs as opposed to landing some crappy Malignant MD place

This is extremely bad advice. Stop discouraging people who could very well end up in a great program, even with less than 500.

Based on the experience of many colleagues, plenty of non-malignant MD programs will consider applicants with lower step scores if you are serious about psych. That is, don't take yourself out of the picture just because you got a 450 instead of a 500! I think OP makes a compelling argument with their past work in psychiatry. Also on the same note, just because a program is listed on FREIDA or their website as a cutoff of say, 450, that's not always set in stone and individuals have received invites despite not meeting the cutoff. The worst thing you could do is not even try for a program you're really interested in.

Exactly.