back door route to being a psychologist

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bmedclinic

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Just found out about this program, oddly, via an ad above my gmail.
Arizona State is offering a program, which seems very easy, based on the listed criteria, to becoming a "Psychologist".

https://sls.asu.edu/bh/licensure

If you scroll down to the bottom, there is a "psychologist" track. Though I love more psychologists getting into integrated primary care- I have a real problem with someone who potentially never did a thesis or a dissertation being called a psychologist. And from what I can tell, this seems to suggest that's entirely possible.

Look at their entrance requirements. You can be a licensed master's level clinician. Where I live, you can get that without doing a thesis (counseling/MSW degrees). And in their "psychologist" track, I see nothing indicating that a dissertation needs to be done.

Am I off base, or is this a potentially very bad thing?

Members don't see this ad.
 
I have a real problem with someone who potentially never did a thesis or a dissertation being called a psychologist. And from what I can tell, this seems to suggest that's entirely possible.

Unfortunately, this is not terribly uncommon. AZ psychologist licensure regs require the applicant to list the major advisor and title of her/his "dissertation or Psy.D. project for the doctoral degree."

Here is a title from a recent "dissertation" done at a Psy.D. program near me: "A Human-Raven Affinity: On Merging Nature and the Human Psyche." From the abstract: "In concept, a human-raven affinity links the human psyche to the natural world through meaningful raven relating. A human-raven affinity includes telescoping human time lines, which span from early humankind to the future. "

This might be ok for a Doctorate in literature or Philosophy, but in Clinical Psych!?! I find it hard to believe that this is what they envisioned at that conference in Vail in 30 years ago.

Am I off base, or is this a potentially very bad thing?

It would seem to be a very bad thing for the students. According to the FAQ page, the students won't get a doctoral degree. The response to the the FAQs " How will the graduates with the Doctor of Behavioral Health receive licensure?" Should raise major red flags for any applicants. Basically, they say that you probably can't get psychologist licensure yet, but their goal "is to develop licensing standards that will match the DBH curriculum and practicum experience." So...they are admitting that you might not be eligible for psychologist licensure under current, but they will be working to change the regs so their program will meet the standards. Best of Luck to them.

Even more alarming is their response to the FAQ "How will graduates with the Doctor of Behavioral Health be able to be reimbursed if the new DBH licensure is not yet available in their respective states?" Here's the direct quote from the website: "The DBH program will initially only be open to students with an existing master’s degree in behavioral health and a current license to practice. This will ensure that if doctoral licensure is not yet available for graduates in their state they may still be able to practice and receive reimbursement under their existing master’s degree license." In other words, "don't worry about it- you're already licensed and getting paid."

This currently non-accredited (unless you count "provisional accreditation" from a "new accreditation body"- the National Institute of Behavioral Health Quality"), non-degree granting (unless you count the new (and unique to them?) "Doctor of Behavioral Health"), partly on-line program will only cost you $45,000 total! Such a deal!
 
Here is a title from a recent "dissertation" done at a Psy.D. program near me: "A Human-Raven Affinity: On Merging Nature and the Human Psyche." From the abstract: "In concept, a human-raven affinity links the human psyche to the natural world through meaningful raven relating. A human-raven affinity includes telescoping human time lines, which span from early humankind to the future. "

This might be ok for a Doctorate in literature or Philosophy, but in Clinical Psych!?! I find it hard to believe that this is what they envisioned at that conference in Vail in 30 years ago.!

:eek::confused::(:scared:
 
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I know! That's a Game of Thrones plot line, not a dissertation topic:scared:

Now, my dissertation did not make any earth shattering contribution to the field of psychology and has been largely forgotten by all involved, but at least it: a) was new, empirical research; b) was conducted in a clinical setting; c) involved collection and analysis of quantitative data; and d) was proposed and defended to a collection of both applied and academic Ph.D.s, selected from various fields due to their knowledge of and history with the topic and population.
 
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Here is a title from a recent "dissertation" done at a Psy.D. program near me: "A Human-Raven Affinity: On Merging Nature and the Human Psyche." From the abstract: "In concept, a human-raven affinity links the human psyche to the natural world through meaningful raven relating. A human-raven affinity includes telescoping human time lines, which span from early humankind to the future. "

Sounds deep! :laugh:
 
was anybody else picturing a creature that was half man/ half raven? am i alone in this?

fyi: the image was horrifying!
 
I'm still trying to parse the phrase "meaningful raven relating."
 
I know! That's a Game of Thrones plot line, not a dissertation topic:scared:

So that person's dissertation was about wargs? ;)

And I'm trying to figure out what "telescoping human timelines" means. It probably doesn't help that I am picturing an actual telescope.
 
The sad thing is that others places re most likely watching to see if they can make money, and if so....expect more BS programs like this one. The APA is working on unifying training standards, which should have happened 15+ yrs ago. 1 path, 1 license....no BS programs
Iike this one. What is most frustrating is a hack who completes a dissertation on moonbeam fairy dust therapy could be viewed by some as an equal. Ugh.
 
was anybody else picturing a creature that was half man/ half raven? am i alone in this?

fyi: the image was horrifying!


So, the Animorphs are now acceptable dissertation topics? ;) [/even bigger nerd]

(Although those books are actually pretty good examples of depression and complex PTSD).
 
Like... how would you even defend that dissertation?

I'm sorry, I just can't get past this!
 
The sad thing is that others places re most likely watching to see if they can make money, and if so....expect more BS programs like this one. The APA is working on unifying training standards, which should have happened 15+ yrs ago. 1 path, 1 license....no BS programs
Iike this one. What is most frustrating is a hack who completes a dissertation on moonbeam fairy dust therapy could be viewed by some as an equal. Ugh.

APA really has no domain over programs like this one- they explicitly state it is not a psychology doctoral program, tout their provisional accreditation by new entity, and make no guarantees that their graduates will be able to become psychologists. There actually seems to be an intent on their part to portray the program as being distinctly different from a doctoral psychology training curriculum. I am curious as to how they will do, but then again a fool and his money (provided in the form of a government backed/subsidized loan) are quickly (and regularly and slowly) parted. The emptor better be caveating, 'cause nobody else seems to be concerned.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
The emptor better be caveating

I love this. I'm going to think of this quote the next time I find out that a student in my agency's GED program wants to apply to a for-profit college that advertises on the subway.

It sounds like you'd have to have seriously poor judgment to enter this DBH program. It's one thing to enter a graduate program with uncertainty about your job prospects. It's another thing to get a doctorate in a field that may or may not even exist.
 
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APA really has no domain over programs like this one..

While they have no domain, they can still influence legislation to limit any program that isn't a psychology doctoral program if they are going to try and back-door to use the term "psychologist". I have a number of issues with APA, but they are doing some things that are trying to address sub-standard and out-right unacceptable training programs. I'd argue they should have done more, started earlier, and been more protective...but that is water under the bridge. I'm trying to be supportive of their current efforts and hope they can make some headway.
 
APA really has no domain over programs like this one- they explicitly state it is not a psychology doctoral program, tout their provisional accreditation by new entity, and make no guarantees that their graduates will be able to become psychologists. There actually seems to be an intent on their part to portray the program as being distinctly different from a doctoral psychology training curriculum.

I do know that the psychology department of ASU are not in favor of this program and at all, and my understanding is that they did their best to stop it. They are in no way associated with it, and I believe the explicit statements were part of a negotiation with psychology to make sure their name was in no way associated with the program.
 
Like... how would you even defend that dissertation?

I'm sorry, I just can't get past this!

Oh I can imagine defending it. If someone on the committee asked me a question, I'd respond by standing up and saying "A Lannister always pays his debts!" and then I'd throw refreshments towards the questioner.
 
Like... how would you even defend that dissertation?

I'm sorry, I just can't get past this!

Just say "backdoor" in the same sentence as "human-raven relations" in a menacing way. You'll get your point across. Points if you arrive wearing black nail polish and a giant upside-down cross.
 
Fret not! Anyone interested can now apply to contribute to the growth of this new program:

Clinical Assistant Professor
Job Code: AV 10081 POSTED: May 30 Salary:OpenLocation:Phoenix, Arizona Employer:ASU/School of Letters and SciencesType:Contract Discipline:Academic / ResearchRequired Education:Doctorate





shim.gif
Job Description
shim.gif
ESSENTIAL FUNCTIONS The Clinical Assistant Professor faculty will teach in an innovative new doctoral degree program that is an upgrade for master’s level clinicians interested in doctoral careers providing integrated behavioral treatment in primary care and similar medical settings. This is a new degree type, designated as the Doctor of Behavioral Health, or D.B.H., that was developed in partnership with Dr. Nicholas A. Cummings and Arizona State University. The D.B.H. is designed to prepare the practitioner to function as a behavioral primary care provider in all kinds of healthcare settings as we enter the new era in which mental health will be an integral and integrated part of the nation's healthcare system. The individual will be responsible for teaching graduate courses from a curriculum based on medical literacy, evidence-based behavioral interventions in primary care/medical settings, population-based approaches and business entrepreneurship. Responsibilities will include teaching up to two doctoral level courses per semester at the Downtown Phoenix Campus in the School of Letters and Sciences, Doctor of Behavioral Health program. Provide academic advising and internship student consultation. Works with campus and university-wide faculty on curriculum and practicum development and provides school or university service as assigned. Writes and grades exams, quizzes, and problem assignments as needed by the course; assists in reviewing and evaluating effectiveness of teaching methods and work activities; maintains student grade records for assigned courses; orients incoming students as required; works with school and university faculty on course development activities; participates in school and/or university service efforts as assigned. QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED Doctoral degree in Clinical Psychology and licensed or license eligible in Arizona; or Doctor of Behavioral Health degree graduate and licensed or license-eligible in Arizona. Significant experience (minimum three years) providing evidence-based behavioral interventions with a focus on integrated care and health psychology. Demonstrated teaching experience that emphasizes student success.
DESIRED Demonstrated a minimum of two years of teaching experience at doctoral level in behavioral health; demonstrated knowledge of course management systems such as Blackboard or Learning Studio; demonstrated experience using web-based online homework systems; demonstrated experience working with diverse students; demonstrated experience working in collaborative environments within and across disciplines.
APPLICATION DEADLINE 5:00pm, June 8, 2012; if not filled, then every Friday thereafter until search is closed.
APPLICATION PROCEDURE Applicants must send the following: letter of interest, curriculum vitae, teaching philosophy, and names of three references with complete contact information electronically to Search Committee (Clinical Assistant Professor –DBH #10081), as one complete electronic PDF file to Kelli Collins ([email protected]). DO NOT send your application letter, curriculum vitae, names of references, etc., as separate files or your application will be considered incomplete. Incomplete applications will not be considered.
To apply, select the "Apply for this Job" button located at the top or bottom of the page.
GENERAL INFORMATION This is a fiscal (July 1 through June 30), full-time year-to-year renewable appointment. A background check is required prior to employment. Questions regarding the position can be addressed to Dr. Ron O’Donnell, [email protected], Director, Behavioral Health, or call (602) 496-1352. Visit the D.B.H. web site http://sls.asu.edu/dbh for additional information. SLS Website address https://sls.asu.edu/about/jobs




Just found out about this program, oddly, via an ad above my gmail.
Arizona State is offering a program, which seems very easy, based on the listed criteria, to becoming a "Psychologist".

https://sls.asu.edu/bh/licensure

If you scroll down to the bottom, there is a "psychologist" track. Though I love more psychologists getting into integrated primary care- I have a real problem with someone who potentially never did a thesis or a dissertation being called a psychologist. And from what I can tell, this seems to suggest that's entirely possible.

Look at their entrance requirements. You can be a licensed master's level clinician. Where I live, you can get that without doing a thesis (counseling/MSW degrees). And in their "psychologist" track, I see nothing indicating that a dissertation needs to be done.

Am I off base, or is this a potentially very bad thing?
 
Fret not! Anyone interested can now apply to contribute to the growth of this new program:

Clinical Assistant Professor

DESIRED Demonstrated a minimum of two years of teaching experience at doctoral level in behavioral health; demonstrated knowledge of course management systems such as Blackboard or Learning Studio; demonstrated experience using web-based online homework systems; demonstrated experience working with diverse students; demonstrated experience working in collaborative environments within and across disciplines.

AAAAANNNDDD....we're done. So this program is online now too?!
 
AAAAANNNDDD....we're done. So this program is online now too?!

Yes, https://sls.asu.edu/bh/faqs

Is there a distance-learning program for the Doctor of Behavioral Health so that I can enroll and complete the program even though I’m not an Arizona resident?
Yes, the DBH program is an entirely online, distance-learning degree program. For additional details, see distance learning.

FWIW, though, plenty of face-to-face classes use Blackboard and suvch for posting materials, turning in papers, etc.

What scares me about this degree is it through a legit, respected R1 university. I would expect this from FSPS, maybe, but not ASU.
 
Can't you just pay the $45k for the diploma and call it a day? I love how the faculty position is contract with no chance for tenure.

For the record, I have seen great progress with moonbeam fairy dust therapy in curing gambling addiction. Of course, big therapy won't give me the money for clinical trials and insurance will not reimburse me. They are just slow to accept progress. Thus, my clients are all private pay. However, for the low rate of $600/hr I have had a 100% success in stopping gambling shortly after my clients declare bankruptcy and shortly before they seek out a homeless shelter. ;):laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
Oh I can imagine defending it. If someone on the committee asked me a question, I'd respond by standing up and saying "A Lannister always pays his debts!" and then I'd throw refreshments towards the questioner.

Just say "backdoor" in the same sentence as "human-raven relations" in a menacing way. You'll get your point across. Points if you arrive wearing black nail polish and a giant upside-down cross.

When will you pass your defense? Quoth the raven, "nevermore."
 
I kind of want to read more of this dissertation.
 
was developed in partnership with Dr. Nicholas A. Cummings
figures this guy was involved. he is almost single handedly destroying the field to make more money for himself.

he is listed as Founder/Faculty and his daughter is also on the list of faculty. It all stinks.
 
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Oh I can imagine defending it. If someone on the committee asked me a question, I'd respond by standing up and saying "A Lannister always pays his debts!" and then I'd throw refreshments towards the questioner.

:laugh:
 
http://www.antiochne.edu/cp/dissertations_detail.cfm?DID=465

Here is another clinical psych dissertation
An Investigation Into the Place of Horseback Riding in Adolescent Development
http://www.antiochne.edu/cp/dissertations_detail.cfm?DID=488

Thank you for the link. Now I know that if I see people running away from Jodi Boos-Blaszyk, it's because someone asked what topic she chose for her dissertation.

I think she should have a Ph.D. in philosophy to go along with the Psy.D. A kind of doctoral degree relating, if you will.
 
Can't you just pay the $45k for the diploma and call it a day? I love how the faculty position is contract with no chance for tenure.

For the record, I have seen great progress with moonbeam fairy dust therapy in curing gambling addiction. Of course, big therapy won't give me the money for clinical trials and insurance will not reimburse me. They are just slow to accept progress. Thus, my clients are all private pay. However, for the low rate of $600/hr I have had a 100% success in stopping gambling shortly after my clients declare bankruptcy and shortly before they seek out a homeless shelter. ;):laugh::laugh::laugh:
heh heh..."big therapy"
 
Some of the dissertations actually seem pretty legit and then some seem... yeah.

I wish I could write about horses or ravens for my diss. :(
 
At least the horse one looked like it was an empirical study (or at least involved some kind of study of humans). Still weird and of questionable importance, but at least it seems vaguely psychological.The raven one is just ridiculous - that is something one of my UGs would turn in - it isn't a psychology dissertation, and I'm continually amazed that schools allow such things to occur.
 
Antioch...that figures...lol.

I live in NH and it seems that that you can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting a PsyD Antioch grad as a clinician or adjunct instructor at a local college.
 
You mean they don't get T-T positions with such great empirical works such as these?
 
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