Bacteria do not cause disease

[Insulinshock]

So this girl I know has a professor who spends her class time lecturing to the students about how bacteria and microorganisms do not cause disease, and that the FDA is "the devil". She believes that natural herbs and plants are the only cures for all disease and cancer.

Anyone else experience nazi professors like this? Who the hell allows these people to teach!? I mean seriously!

(on a side note, the teacher obviously isn't a biological science teacher, but something close although I can't remember exactly what the course was.)

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[armybound]

weird. I never had a professor that was off-kilter.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Your friend may want to leave a basic microbiology textbook and some papers from as far back as the late 19th century on the doorstep of that professors office. Maybe then she will understand that she's wrong.

 

[neuroprotector]

So I go to a liberal arts college, and I'm proud of it, but I've definitely had my share of professors with...well...an agenda. But that's the beauty of academics - now you're forced to come up with counterarguments, which reinforces what you know.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

So I go to a liberal arts college, and I'm proud of it, but I've definitely had my share of professors with...well...an agenda. But that's the beauty of academics - now you're forced to come up with counterarguments, which reinforces what you know.

Forced to come up with "counterarguments"? So, 150+ years of scientific data is classified as a counterargument now, rather than common knowledge?

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm still just in shock that there is someone with a PhD out there who honestly believes bacteria do not cause disease. Wow.

 

[Piyush]

If micro organisms dont cause infections and diseases, then what does? It be interesting to know what the prof thinks causes diseases...

I had to critique this website for one of my inquiry in science classes: www.dhmo.org . Thanks to professors like the one mentioned by the OP, we need DHMO research....

Cheers
Piyush

 

[Depakote]

During my last semester of UGrad, I had to take a weekend 1 credit hour sociology class so I could fill all my requirements and get everything in in my last semester. I wound up in "Sociology of Business" or some such class... it was a 1 day, 8hr class. No problem.

The professor spends the entire day essentially ranting about how a shadow group called "The Enterprise" (composed of big business) controls the government and various other aspects of the economy. It was pretty heavy conspiracy theorist stuff.

Now, the "final" comes around at the end of the day. I take the test and of course, all his conspiracy theories are on the test. So I regurgitate and get my A in the class.

Sometimes, it is just easier to let the crazy people indulge themselves...

 

[167649]

Mama says alligators are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush

 

[RySerr21]

So this girl I know has a professor who spends her class time lecturing to the students about how bacteria and microorganisms do not cause disease, and that the FDA is "the devil". She believes that natural herbs and plants are the only cures for all disease and cancer.

Anyone else experience nazi professors like this? Who the hell allows these people to teach!? I mean seriously!

(on a side note, the teacher obviously isn't a biological science teacher, but something close although I can't remember exactly what the course was.)

i have no comment on bacteria not causing disease....but as far as plants "curing" all disease and cancer.......there is definitely some truth to that. its more prevention of disease and cancer rather than curing, although if you look at cases such as heart disease you can definfitely "cure" it with a whole foods plant based diet. by cure i mean completely reverse it.

The China Study is an amazing book that is the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted. it is truly remarkable

 

[armybound]

So I go to a liberal arts college, and I'm proud of it, but I've definitely had my share of professors with...well...an agenda. But that's the beauty of academics - now you're forced to come up with counterarguments, which reinforces what you know.

.. which is good when people can think for themselves. a lot of sheep will hear what the professor says and just run with it as truth, though.

 

[neuroprotector]

.. which is good when people can think for themselves. a lot of sheep will hear what the professor says and just run with it as truth, though.

That's why we take extra time out to make sure people can learn for themselves. Look, perhaps the sarcasm of "liberal arts college" didn't come through over SDN. It's not a perfect system, I agree. But I stand by the importance of taking this evidence to professors and showing them why they're wrong. Maybe that's why we have fewer sheep.

And yeah, it is a counterargument. All of science is inductive and abductive argumentation, which is an argument in itself. Even the most steadfast and important principles are based on premises that were once considered "arguable."

 

[beachblonde]

Forced to come up with "counterarguments"? So, 150+ years of scientific data is classified as a counterargument now, rather than common knowledge?

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'm still just in shock that there is someone with a PhD out there who honestly believes bacteria do not cause disease. Wow.

I think you'd be surprised what people will believe, regardless of their level of education. I'm not going to get into specifics....coughcreationismcough....but there are a lot of people out there who have convictions and will stick to them, despite evidence to the contrary.

And OP, I think that prof would be quite surprised to find out that her beloved herbs can be quite harmful. I wish I could think of some examples right now, but I'm blanking out for some reason. But good thing for her, the FDA doesn't regulate most of that stuff. There is some irony in that it's your immune system that really makes you ill in response to bacteria...but really, pathogens are the root of the disease.

 

[neuroprotector]

I think you'd be surprised what people will believe, regardless of their level of education. I'm not going to get into specifics....coughcreationismcough....but there are a lot of people out there who have convictions and will stick to them, despite evidence to the contrary.

And OP, I think that prof would be quite surprised to find out that her beloved herbs can be quite harmful. I wish I could think of some examples right now, but I'm blanking out for some reason. But good thing for her, the FDA doesn't regulate most of that stuff. There is some irony in that it's your immune system that really makes you ill in response to bacteria...but really, pathogens are the root of the disease.

Ephedra is the big one that comes to mind, but there's a bajillion.

 

[Depakote]

i have no comment on bacteria not causing disease....but as far as plants "curing" all disease and cancer.......there is definitely truth to that. its more prevention of disease and cancer rather than curing, although if you look at cases such as heart disease you can definfitely "cure" it with a whole foods plant based diet. by cure i mean completely reverse it.

The China Study is an amazing book that is the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever conducted. it is truly remarkable

Once you've damaged your heart with an ischemic event, no amount of healthy eating is going to reverse that and regenerate the scarred cardiac muscle.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Once you've damaged your heart with an ischemic event, no amount of healthy eating is going to reverse that and regenerate the scarred cardiac muscle.

 

[NickMB]

If you want to be all technical about it, the mere fact of the bacteria's presence in the body is not the cause of the disease in most cases, but it's rather their "by-products." Non-pathogenic vs pathogenic strains of e coli are an example. Also, normal immune response to "non-self" can be implicated. But perhaps that's what the professor is thinking

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

If you want to be all technical about it, the mere fact of the bacteria's presence in the body is not the cause of the disease in most cases, but it's rather their "by-products." Non-pathogenic vs pathogenic strains of e coli are an example. Also, normal immune response to "non-self" can be implicated. But perhaps that's what the professor is thinking

If those bacteria were not present, would the toxic by-products be present? No, thus the bacteria are causing the illness.

Logic ftw.

 

[ufgrad00]

And OP, I think that prof would be quite surprised to find out that her beloved herbs can be quite harmful. I wish I could think of some examples right now, but I'm blanking out for some reason.

I can think of many beloved "herbs." Marijuana, Cocaine, and black tar opium come to mind, Oh, and psych mushrooms (not an "herb" but again, they are natural).

 

[Maxprime]

Is this at Liberty University?

Half of America doesn't believe in evolution, don't be surprised when you run into or hear about stupid people.

 

[NickMB]

If those bacteria were not present, would the toxic by-products be present? No, thus the bacteria are causing the illness.

Logic ftw.

True, but take for example septic shock. Septic shock is caused by normal immune response that just happens to be on a much larger scale than the body can withstand. Are the bacteria themselves eating away at cells and causing things to go haywire? Technically, no, they're just moving around being bacteriaish and the immune response is just doing what it normally does. But yes, if the bacteria weren't there in such a large scale, there would be no immune response.

 

[Jolie South]

I can think of many beloved "herbs." Marijuana, Cocaine, and black tar opium come to mind, Oh, and psych mushrooms (not an "herb" but again, they are natural).

spitting cobras are natural, but nobody's rushing to cuddle with them.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

True, but take for example septic shock. Septic shock is caused by normal immune response that just happens to be on a much larger scale than the body can withstand. Are the bacteria themselves eating away at cells and causing things to go haywire? Technically, no, they're just moving around being bacteriaish and the immune response is just doing what it normally does. But yes, if the bacteria weren't there in such a large scale, there would be no immune response.

I think you might be confusing septic shock with something else. Septic shock is cause by an infection overload (bacteremia, etc) causing cytokine release, not a hyper-immune response (anaphylaxis).

 

[JStreet11]

Is this at Liberty University?

I literally LOLd...I am at a small liberal arts institution as well and I've never met a professor that is off their rocker to THAT degree. Granted, I've had a few that are eccentric, but all of them believe in well-documented scientific theory.

Part of the beauty of my school is how willing the professors are to stay after class and chat about something that came up during class. If that teacher were here, I'd take the time to stay after quite a few class periods and try to convince her otherwise. If not for her own sake, then for the sake of a good story.

 

[carwreck]

The professor spends the entire day essentially ranting about how a shadow group called "The Enterprise" (composed of big business) controls the government and various other aspects of the economy. It was pretty heavy conspiracy theorist stuff.

Sounds like MGS2's storyline.

 

[NickMB]

I think you might be confusing septic shock with something else. Septic shock is cause by an infection overload (bacteremia, etc) causing cytokine release, not a hyper-immune response (anaphylaxis).

No, no, I'm talking about septic shock. High levels of TNF as a result of the infection are what cause septic shock, not the infection itself. High plasma concentration of TNF causes a drop in blood pressure due to blood vessel dilation and low output by the heart. It also causes the liver to move into acute-phase protein production overdrive, which overtakes its ability to maintain normal function and causes hypoglycemia. All of this is normal immune response, it just happens to be on a grand scale.

But, again, none of that would have happened were it not due to an infection. It's just that the infection is not what's causing the symptoms.

 

[ufgrad00]

spitting cobras are natural, but nobody's rushing to cuddle with them.

nice

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

No, no, I'm talking about septic shock. High levels of TNF as a result of the infection are what cause septic shock, not the infection itself. High plasma concentration of TNF causes a drop in blood pressure due to blood vessel dilation and low output by the heart. It also causes the liver to move into acute-phase protein production overdrive, which overtakes its ability to maintain normal function and causes hypoglycemia. All of this is normal immune response, it just happens to be on a grand scale.

But, again, none of that would have happened were it not due to an infection. It's just that the infection is not what's causing the symptoms.

Hmm, I've always read that death due to SS is caused by low blood oxygen and poor tissue oxygenation causing organ failure, not hypoglycemia. Meh, not going to argue about it since neither of us are medical student/doctors and will by thusly schooled on the subject soon =).

 

[Depakote]

spitting cobras are natural, but nobody's rushing to cuddle with them.

you've clearly never met my pet spitting cobra, fluffykins.

 

[NickMB]

Hmm, I've always read that death due to SS is caused by low blood oxygen and poor tissue oxygenation causing organ failure, not hypoglycemia. Meh, not going to argue about it since neither of us are medical student/doctors and will by thusly schooled on the subject soon =).

Indeed I'm just amusing myself talking about this because this is exactly what the professor talked about in my immunology class last Thursday! It's fun to apply classroom concepts to the real world

 

[sicko]

people do.

 

[Depakote]

Hmm, I've always read that death due to SS is caused by low blood oxygen and poor tissue oxygenation causing organ failure, not hypoglycemia. Meh, not going to argue about it since neither of us are medical student/doctors and will by thusly schooled on the subject soon =).

From
Tintinalli's Emergency Medicine

Sepsis starts as a focus of infection (urinary tract infection, pneumonia, cellulitis, abscess, or indwelling prosthetic device) resulting in blood stream invasion or a proliferation of organisms at the infected site (Figure 32-2). These growing organisms release a large amount of exogenous toxins consisting of endotoxins, exotoxins, and other components of the organism's structural components. The host's reaction to these toxins results in the release of endogenous mediators and activation of other humoral defense mechanisms including complement, kinins, and coagulation factors. Among the most prominent of the endogenous mediators are the cytokines [e.g., tumor necrosis factor (TNF-) and interleukins (ILs)], platelet-activating factor (PAF), arachidonic acid metabolites, and myocardial depressant substances. Release of myocardial depressant substances results in the depression of myocardial function, dilation of the ventricles, and vasodilation.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

From
Tintinalli's Emergency Medicine

Looks like I overestimated the time it would take for us to be schooled on the subject.

I defer to Depakote due both to his advanced knowledge, and his cobra named fluffykins.

 

[Depakote]

Looks like I overestimated the time it would take for us to be schooled on the subject.

I defer to Depakote due both to his advanced knowledge, and his cobra named fluffykins.

I had shock as a Learning Objective for PBL this morning...

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

I had shock as a Learning Objective for PBL this morning...

Haha, what a freaky coincidence. Apparentlyit was an omen. Or maybe I'm one of your professors trying to test you in a non-classroom environment? Haha, just kidding, I'm not. Or am I? No. No I'm not.

Or maybe I am.

 

[Mr hawkings]

True, but take for example septic shock. Septic shock is caused by normal immune response that just happens to be on a much larger scale than the body can withstand. Are the bacteria themselves eating away at cells and causing things to go haywire? Technically, no, they're just moving around being bacteriaish and the immune response is just doing what it normally does. But yes, if the bacteria weren't there in such a large scale, there would be no immune response.

There are bacteria that do directly destroy some cells, and not through any bye-products.

 

[novastorm]

The moon is made of cheese. That is all carry on.

 

[Depakote]

Haha, what a freaky coincidence. Apparentlyit was an omen. Or maybe I'm one of your professors trying to test you in a non-classroom environment? Haha, just kidding, I'm not. Or am I? No. No I'm not.

Or maybe I am.

fluffykins cares not for your shenanigans...

 

[NickMB]

There are bacteria that do directly destroy some cells, and not through any bye-products.

indeed which is why I said "the bacteria's presence in the body is not the cause of the disease in most cases, but it's rather their 'by-products.'"

In nature, there are no absolutes

 

[NickMB]

fluffykins cares not for your shenanigans...

Say hello to my little friend:

 

[130912]

If micro organisms dont cause infections and diseases, then what does? It be interesting to know what the prof thinks causes diseases...

I've heard some loonies say things like: sin is the cause of all disease; disease is caused by a desire to be sick; disease is mother earth's way of retaliating against humans who don't appreciate her. (I once worked in a hippie grocery store...)

At any rate, just don't be surprised that people are grossly uninformed and willfully ignorant of things like this. It seems to me that there is a strong anti-science streak in even some of the most seemingly forward-thinking people.

What scares me is that when I'm a doctor, people who believe things like this may come to me with some horrible diseases and insist on being treated without any modern medicine. (i.e. antibiotics, etc.) What do you do then?

 

[NickMB]

What scares me is that when I'm doctor, people who believe things like this may come to me with some horrible diseases and insist on being treated without any modern medicine. (i.e. antibiotics, etc.) What do you do then?

You can get a court order. If it's life-threatening and they refuse treatment, and a court declares them legally incompetent of making decisions regarding health, they'll assign someone who'd have more logic.

That touches on a multitude of ethical issues and opens up a whole can of worms.

For example, on Discovery Health was a guy who cut off his arm and wouldn't let the doctors reattach it. They were going to get a court order so that they can do it anyway, but then he was just going to cut it off again, so they just gave up. There was no point in wasting resources.

 

[RPedigo]

Mama says alligators are angry because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush

Chlorophyll? More like boreophyll.

 

[45408]

Hmm, I've always read that death due to SS is caused by low blood oxygen and poor tissue oxygenation causing organ failure, not hypoglycemia. Meh, not going to argue about it since neither of us are medical student/doctors and will by thusly schooled on the subject soon =).

Sepsis produces hypoglycemia, cardiac failure, and disseminated intravascular coagulation. It's probably a combination of the three that brings you down.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Chlorophyll? More like boreophyll.

No I will not make out with you! Did ya hear that? This girl wants to make out with me in the middle of class. You got Chlorophyll Man up there talking about god knows what and all she can talk about is making out with me. I'm here to learn, everybody, not to make out with you. Go on with the chlorophyll.

 

[130912]

You can get a court order. If it's life-threatening and they refuse treatment, and a court declares them legally incompetent of making decisions regarding health, they'll assign someone who'd have more logic.

That touches on a multitude of ethical issues and opens up a whole can of worms.

For example, on Discovery Health was a guy who cut off his arm and wouldn't let the doctors reattach it. They were going to get a court order so that they can do it anyway, but then he was just going to cut it off again, so they just gave up. There was no point in wasting resources.

I've read about people getting court orders to treat children whose parents won't authorize a life-saving operation or course of treatment for their child due to religious/moral reasons.

But I've never heard of a court ordering a person to take penicillin because they have strep throat and don't believe in antibiotics. How do you deal with a situation like that?

 

[RySerr21]

Once you've damaged your heart with an ischemic event, no amount of healthy eating is going to reverse that and regenerate the scarred cardiac muscle.

true. i was referring to things like atherosclerosis, things that will eventually lead to ischemic events and casue the scarred cardiac muscle you mentioned..... things that coronary bypass and anioplasties try to "cure" but in the long run don't do much of anything, especially if the same lifestyle and diet is maintained as before the surgery

 

[NickMB]

I've read about people getting court orders to treat children whose parents won't authorize a life-saving operation or course of treatment for their child due to religious/moral reasons.

But I've never heard of a court ordering a person to take penicillin because they have strep throat and don't believe in antibiotics. How do you deal with a situation like that?

At that point, it's really their choice. You can refer them to an N.D. or inform them of ways they can boost their immune system. You just can't treat every patient.

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

true. i was referring to things like atherosclerosis, things that will eventually lead to ischemic events and casue the scarred cardiac muscle you mentioned..... things that coronary bypass and anioplasties try to "cure" but in the long run don't do much of anything, especially if the same lifestyle and diet is maintained as before the surgery

Isn't everything in medicine just a stall "in the long run"? As far as I know, there isn't a cure for death yet...

 

[NickMB]

Isn't everything in medicine just a stall "in the long run"? As far as I know, there isn't a cure for death yet...

only because we've yet to find a way to lengthen telomeres

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

only because we've yet to find a way to lengthen telomeres

And find a way to regenerate dead cardiac/neuronal tissue.