BBC to Air Accupuncture Findings

[flyingbridge]

Interesting, this story at the BBC web site. Excerpt:

The team, including leading scientists from University College London, Southampton University and the University of York, found the superficial needling resulted in activation of the motor areas of the cortex, a normal reaction to pain.

But with deep needling, the limbic system, part of the pain matrix, is deactivated.

The finding was surprising because experts had always assumed acupuncture activates the brain in someway.

So here's the question part of this post: do you all think that as time goes on, these kinds of techniques will become more accepted/common in western medicine to the point where they are adopted as part of standard training for MDs/DOs and not just considered the purview of specialized healthcare practitioners (ie, people who are not also MDs or DOs)?

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[DropkickMurphy]

OD's? You mean DO's right?

 

[flyingbridge]

OD's? You mean DO's right?

Ha, yes indeed. Corrected original post, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

No problem....I was just confused as to why optometrists would be using acupuncture...... "Now don't move, whatever you do!"

 

[CatsandCradles]

No problem....I was just confused as to why optometrists would be using acupuncture...... "Now don't move, whatever you do!"

Now there's a thought! A needle slowly headed straight for your eyes!


Acupuncture is one of those really interesting things from China. I always wondered how something like acupuncture developed over the millennium. How did it start? Are there early forms of acupuncture? Who was the fellow who discovered it? I mean after all it's not every day your local village doctor gets the bright idea and says, "Hey let me try sticking you with needles to see if it will help you."

 

[DeadlyWarbler]

Acupuncture was born out of Taoist meditation, which discovered through feel the different energy meridians that run through the body. The most sensitive were able to feel points where the energy was accessable from the outside. The earliest was by touch, but they found that needles could access the energy at a deeper level. I believe the earliest needles were stone or volcanic glass, and not very small!! Obviously once metals were used, the needles became much smaller, but even today they are pretty thick gague
I'm studying for a Master's in traditional Chinese Medicine. The curriculum structure is almost identical to the MD programs minus the residency. It's 4.5 years. Two years of didactic, and the rest advanced didactic and clinical internship. There's legislation trying to require acupuncturists to do a residency too! The doctorate program is another three years!!

speaking of eye acupuncture, I know some extremely talented doctors who are able to thread a 2.5" needle under the eye ball and back behind to lightly contact the optic nerve for optic neuritis and migraines! That's scary.

Now there's a thought! A needle slowly headed straight for your eyes!


Acupuncture is one of those really interesting things from China. I always wondered how something like acupuncture developed over the millennium. How did it start? Are there early forms of acupuncture? Who was the fellow who discovered it? I mean after all it's not every day your local village doctor gets the bright idea and says, "Hey let me try sticking you with needles to see if it will help you."

 

[Haemulon]

Acupuncture was born out of Taoist meditation, which discovered through feel the different energy meridians that run through the body. The most sensitive were able to feel points where the energy was accessable from the outside. The earliest was by touch, but they found that needles could access the energy at a deeper level. I believe the earliest needles were stone or volcanic glass, and not very small!! Obviously once metals were used, the needles became much smaller, but even today they are pretty thick gague
I'm studying for a Master's in traditional Chinese Medicine. The curriculum structure is almost identical to the MD programs minus the residency. It's 4.5 years. Two years of didactic, and the rest advanced didactic and clinical internship. There's legislation trying to require acupuncturists to do a residency too! The doctorate program is another three years!!

speaking of eye acupuncture, I know some extremely talented doctors who are able to thread a 2.5" needle under the eye ball and back behind to lightly contact the optic nerve for optic neuritis and migraines! That's scary.

I of course accept that needling does elicit a true physical response and can impact pain perception. However, I do not see accupuncture in its complete sense being incorporated into mainstream western medical practice. This is largely because there is a difference between accepting the use of needling in certain circumstances for pain relief or muscle tension (things like that) and accepting the foundation of accupuncture as modifying engery pathways and re-channeling energy in the body (something without empirical merit).

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

Acupuncture was born out of Taoist meditation, which discovered through feel the different energy meridians that run through the body. The most sensitive were able to feel points where the energy was accessable from the outside.

Does your masters program teach that there actually are energy meridians in the body? I'm just curious, not coming down on the program.

 

[PBEA]

Acupuncture was born out of Taoist meditation, which discovered through feel the different energy meridians that run through the body. The most sensitive were able to feel points where the energy was accessable from the outside. The earliest was by touch, but they found that needles could access the energy at a deeper level. I believe the earliest needles were stone or volcanic glass, and not very small!! Obviously once metals were used, the needles became much smaller, but even today they are pretty thick gague
I'm studying for a Master's in traditional Chinese Medicine. The curriculum structure is almost identical to the MD programs minus the residency. It's 4.5 years. Two years of didactic, and the rest advanced didactic and clinical internship. There's legislation trying to require acupuncturists to do a residency too! The doctorate program is another three years!!

speaking of eye acupuncture, I know some extremely talented doctors who are able to thread a 2.5" needle under the eye ball and back behind to lightly contact the optic nerve for optic neuritis and migraines! That's scary.

As an OD, I don't know squat about accupuncture. I do find it incredulous to think that someone is actually trying to treat optic neuritis by threading a needle within the orbit to contact the optic nerve! and then they do what exactly with the needle? Wait a minute, that sounds an awful lot like optic nerve decompression . I get the presumed mechanism of action for this procedure, but what is the theory behind using accupuncture for optic neuritis.

 

[PublicHealth]

I'm studying for a Master's in traditional Chinese Medicine. The curriculum structure is almost identical to the MD programs minus the residency. It's 4.5 years. Two years of didactic, and the rest advanced didactic and clinical internship. There's legislation trying to require acupuncturists to do a residency too! The doctorate program is another three years!!

No need to do all of that. I know several docs (MDs, DOs, DCs) who completed a couple hundred hour IAMA program and have successfully incorporated acupuncture into their practices: http://www.iama.edu/

Other programs: http://www.dabma.org/programs.asp

Scope of practice for various docs by state: http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/licensure.html

 

[PublicHealth]

No need to do all of that. I know several docs (MDs, DOs, DCs) who completed an IAMA or related program and have successfully incorporated acupuncture into their practices: http://www.iama.edu/

Other programs: http://www.dabma.org/programs.asp

Scope of practice for various docs by state: http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/licensure.html

No optometrists in this list!

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

No need to do all of that. I know several docs (MDs, DOs, DCs) who completed a couple hundred hour IAMA program and have successfully incorporated acupuncture into their practices: http://www.iama.edu/

This is perfectly acceptable if those doctors realize the limit of their training. As I've mentioned on other threads, those that actually get a master's degree in acupuncture spend more time practicing needling on each other (before even seeing a patient) then the time spent on the entire medical acupuncture program. This clinical outcomes of this fact was painful obvious to me (and the patients) when I witnessed medical acupuncturists attempting to needle patients for the first time while in China.

In addition, while most people on this board might not agree with the purported classical mechanisms of acupuncture, training in classical acupuncture opens up a huge volume of clinical case studies that are absent from the medical acupuncture training. Plus there is a huge difference in seeing over 400 patients as a student acupuncture practitioner and taking a 300 hour program.

Now I'm not saying that medical acupuncture should be outlawed, but it should be honestly evaluated and restricted. The logic behind this reminds me of the FNP vs. FP MD thread I started...and the reasons for why being a FP MD trumps those of being a FNP apply here. And just like the how it is an ethical imperative that the role of FNPs be restricted to reflect their training, the role of a medical acupuncturist should be restricted to reflect their training.

On the other hand, the lack of biomedical clinical training that the average acupuncture student learns should (and is being) addressed. I might be a dreamer, but the pathophysiology class that acupuncture students are required to take should at least be in depth as the nursing one I'm taking now (which is not very detailed).

So far this lack of training hasn't really been much of an issue since the acupuncture-patient relationship almost always takes place in the context of the patient having a PCP, but all it will take is for a few acupuncturists to miss a critical biomedical diagnosis and then...




BTW, I have spoken to a medical acupuncturist that is phenomenal, but that still doesn't justify the lack of training. The same could be said about some FNP's.

 

[PublicHealth]

This is perfectly acceptable if those doctors realize the limit of their training. As I've mentioned on other threads, those that actually get a master's degree in acupuncture spend more time practicing needling on each other (before even seeing a patient) then the time spent on the entire medical acupuncture program. This clinical outcomes of this fact was painful obvious to me (and the patients) when I witnessed medical acupuncturists attempting to needle patients for the first time while in China.

In addition, while most people on this board might not agree with the purported classical mechanisms of acupuncture, training in classical acupuncture opens up a huge volume of clinical case studies that are absent from the medical acupuncture training. Plus there is a huge difference in seeing over 400 patients as a student acupuncture practitioner and taking a 300 hour program.

Now I'm not saying that medical acupuncture should be outlawed, but it should be honestly evaluated and restricted. The logic behind this reminds me of the FNP vs. FP MD thread I started...and the reasons for why being a FP MD trumps those of being a FNP apply here. And just like the how it is an ethical imperative that the role of FNPs be restricted to reflect their training, the role of a medical acupuncturist should be restricted to reflect their training.

On the other hand, the lack of biomedical clinical training that the average acupuncture student learns should (and is being) addressed. I might be a dreamer, but the pathophysiology class that acupuncture students are required to take should at least be in depth as the nursing one I'm taking now (which is not very detailed).

So far this lack of training hasn't really been much of an issue since the acupuncture-patient relationship almost always takes place in the context of the patient having a PCP, but all it will take is for a few acupuncturists to miss a critical biomedical diagnosis and then...

BTW, I have spoken to a medical acupuncturist that is phenomenal, but that still doesn't justify the lack of training. The same could be said about some FNP's.

Scope of practice issues appear to have crept into many areas of medicine, including CAM. What kinds of regulations are in place for acupuncture? I certainly would not want someone with a couple-hundred-hour online program under their belt sticking needles in my face!

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Scope of practice issues appear to have crept into many areas of medicine, including CAM. What kinds of regulations are in place for acupuncture? I certainly would not want someone with a couple-hundred-hour online program under their belt sticking needles in my face!

Usually it depends on the state. Most states require that the applicant pass the national licensing exam (www.nccaom.org) in order to get licensed by the state. One of the prerequisites for the exam is a master's degree in acupuncture, training in an apprenticeship for several years, or a degree from overseas.

Once the exam is passed, some states require the applicant submit their transcripts in order to determine the number of hours completed (some states like WA and CA require more hours than the number required to sit for the licensing exam).

But some states have their own licensing exams, like Nevada. Others like CA have even more requirements, like completion of a Chinese herbal medicine program. A few states, like Kansas [ for my homestate], do not license acupuncturists. Instead they license MDs or DOs without any training, and DCs if they complete a 100 hour course.

The ability of MDs or DOs to practice acupuncture is varies between states. Some states require the doctor complete the medical acupuncture training program while others do not. As for DCs, most states require completion of 100 hours of training.


Now some of my information might be a little dated or incorrect, but for the most part, I think that was an accurate overview.




Edit: when in doubt, ask the acupuncturist where they got their master's degree, or you can check the nccaom website to make sure they are licensed [a good idea].