Best UG schools for pre-meds

[md-2020]

Out of complete curiosity (read: I know this is pretty arbitrary), what would you guys put as the top 10 undergraduate schools to pursue pre-med at, factoring in 1.) lay prestige, 2.) school quality/location/resources/EC opportunities, and 3.) inflation/deflation/stress on students?

I've seen alot of lists such as this one that are just utterly ridiculous:

http://www.collegemagazine.com/cms-top-10-universities-pre-med-students/

I'd say, in very rough order:

1. Harvard 1.) A+ 2.) A 3.)A+
2. Yale 1.) A+ 2.) A- 3.)A
3. Brown 1.) A 2.) A 3.)A+
4. Duke 1.) A- 2.) A- 3.)A-
5. Stanford 1.) A+ 2.) A 3.)B
6. Northwestern 1.) A 2.) A- 3.)B+
7. Penn 1.) A 2.) B+ 3.)B+
8. Dartmouth 1.) A- 2.) B 3.)A-
9. WashU 1.) B 2.) B+ 3.)A-
10. Columbia 1.) A 2.) A- 3.)B-


Thoughts?

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[DrDorianTurkleton]

If I could go back and do it all over again from UG, I would have tried so very hard to get into WashU. I feel like their curriculum/preparation for pre-med students yields amazing results when it comes to MCAT, and all the WashU students I know have gotten into amazing med schools.

Also this is not bashing any other schools, just going off the experience I have with WashU since my gf went there.

 

[WingedOx]

LACs FTW.

 

[Spinach Dip]

No Name State U FTW!!!



(Except for our football team. We don't talk about them.)

 

[md-2020]

No Name State U FTW!!!



(Except for our football team. We don't talk about them.)

Can't agree w/ that. Statistically state U's are way deflated, have mass attrition, fewer resources, and less investment into student opportunities (as compared to top national privates).

 

[deleted393595]

Out of complete curiosity (read: I know this is pretty arbitrary), what would you guys put as the top 10 undergraduate schools to pursue pre-med at, factoring in 1.) lay prestige, 2.) school quality/location/resources/EC opportunities, and 3.) inflation/deflation/stress on students?

I've seen alot of lists such as this one that are just utterly ridiculous:

http://www.collegemagazine.com/cms-top-10-universities-pre-med-students/

I'd say, in very rough order:

1. Harvard 1.) A+ 2.) A 3.)A+
2. Yale 1.) A+ 2.) A- 3.)A
3. Brown 1.) A 2.) A 3.)A+
4. Duke 1.) A- 2.) A- 3.)A-
5. Stanford 1.) A+ 2.) A 3.)B
6. Northwestern 1.) A 2.) A- 3.)B+
7. Penn 1.) A 2.) B+ 3.)B+
8. Dartmouth 1.) A- 2.) B 3.)A-
9. WashU 1.) B 2.) B+ 3.)A-
10. Columbia 1.) A 2.) A- 3.)B-


Thoughts?

This thread needs more @efle!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Eh, I think this depends heavily on the individual. It's easy to list some of the top undergrads and label them as "the best" for pre-meds, but this will vary from student to student. For some, an Ivy (or another top private school) might be ideal, while a state school can easily be a more appropriate launching pad for others. In addition, you have to consider that many applicants are non-trads, and they will often choose the most convenient program to finish their requirements.

 

[Spinach Dip]

Can't agree w/ that. Statistically state U's are way deflated, have mass attrition, fewer resources, and less investment into student opportunities (as compared to top national privates).

Hey it worked for me.

What do you want? Good grades? Research opportunities? Collegiate sports? Academic advisors you meet more than once a year?

Kids these days....

 

[efle]

I'd give Wustl 1) C- 2) A because of the med school (some of these seem odd...Brown really has better resources/EC/location for premeds than Duke...?) 3) B

 

[md-2020]

I'd give Wustl 1) C- 2) A because of the med school (some of these seem odd...Brown really has better resources/EC/location for premeds than Duke...?) 3) B

By definition, a C is an "average" grade. C- would indicate below average reputation. As in the University of Missouri, a lower-tier state UG. WUSTL is definitely not that, even if it is under-recognized.

I think Brown > Duke for pre-meds. No grad requirements. Tons of academic advising. Small school size, lots of EC clubs etc. Mass incest/opportunities between Alpert and the UG. etc etc. Lay prestige Brown > Duke. Probably the most grade inflation in the country.

But again, notice in my first post that everything is my opinion only and also quite roughly estimated.

 

[tigueraso23]

Are my chances higher if I graduate from BYU or UofU?

 

[md-2020]

Are my chances higher if I graduate from BYU or UofU?

I don't think there's an appreciable difference between those 2. I am personally a fan of BYU though (hotter students)

 

[mrspecialist]

No UC's school? (cost effective)

 

[gyngyn]

I think Brown > Duke for pre-meds. No grad requirements. Tons of academic advising. Small school size, lots of EC clubs etc. Mass incest/opportunities between Alpert and the UG. etc etc. Lay prestige Brown > Duke. Probably the most grade inflation in the country.
.

Brown is not helpful to their undergrads who apply out.
Their committee letter is historically very late.
Brown's grade inflation is legendary.

 

[efle]

My scale would be
A everyone knows of it tons of prestige (eg hypsm)
B anyone familiar with good colleges knows of it and that its great (eg non-hyp Ivy)
C people know about it regionally for quality (- for wustl because its locally known about and usually seen positively, but also often viewed negatively as gaming its way to fame via test scores and wait list antics)
D people will recognize it as legit uni without really any reaction/judgement about prestige (eg U of Kansas or other typical state flag ships)
F essentially nobody recognizes
I think the average college student is in F, zero prestige contribution from your Alma mater being on your resume

Duke has much more name recognition than Brown where I'm from

 

[GrapesofRath]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong(I could easily be) but doesn't Brown still have the policy that classes you fail don't show up on your transcript? You can intentionally FAIL classes to gain the system. Sit in on Ochem one semester, take a few tests, then skip the final, that F will never show. Take it again next semester, it's like re-taking the class only no one will ever know.

I tend to stay away from alot of these threads and argue at the end of the day none of this inflation/deflation talk really matters overall but I think we can all agree Brown is in its own world for grading. And yes, this comes from someone who generally argues that these grade inflation/deflation debates are usually way overblown and don't make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

Interestingly though about Brown is yes like gyngyn talked about they take a ton of their own for medical school and allow for all kinds of tricks and ways to help your GPA, but you'll hear all the time on this site and in general how late and questionable their advising is and how late they send some of their letters. Kind of an interesting dichotomy.

 

[md-2020]

I think the average college student is in F, zero prestige contribution from your Alma mater being on your resume

Duke has much more name recognition than Brown where I'm from

Clearly we view the letter grade "F" quite differently No problem, after all my list/grades are all based on my personal opinion/scale.

Interesting, on the East Coast and Midwest (the two areas I've been in extensively), most view Brown as head and shoulders above Duke. In fact, I've met many non-academia Americans ask me "What's Duke?" Many more assumed it was a state school/alternate campus of UNC.
Goes to show the regional differences, eh?

 

[WingedOx]

even if it is under-recognized.

not by anyone important.

 

[WingedOx]

most view Brown as head and shoulders above Duke.

Anyone in the Midwest having this discussion isn't someone that you want to hang out with.

 

[Spector1]

Hey there should be a cost rating too. Give some love for state schools. (cough berkeley cough)

 

[md-2020]

No UC's school? (cost effective)

Hey there should be a cost rating too. Give some love for state schools. (cough berkeley cough)

As has been extensively covered, most of the schools on my list will give you extremely generous financial aid, several with no loans. It's not definitive that a UC would be cheaper than an Ivy (assuming you get in, though).

Berkeley is super tough on pre-meds. Would not want to be fighting through that attrition. Same w/ the other UC's. Large campus also definitely means way more "sink or swim" for students. @ZedsDed

Statistically public schools are much more deflated. That's bad news for aspiring docs.

 

[Cotterpin]

I would give Columbia an A+ for "school quality/location/resources/EC opportunities." Certainly not an A-.

 

[tortelliniboy]

whatever is the cheapest and provides you with the most happiness (preferably 4 year uni)

 

[Dr. Death]

A school in an easy pre-med state to gain residency there. I like my UG because most of the classes (even upper division sciences) are easy and 90% of people have never heard of it so they don't know it's that easy.

 

[WingedOx]

whatever is the cheapest and provides you with the most happiness (preferably 4 year uni)

Seriously. It's not the school, it's the student.

 

[ZedsDed]

As has been extensively covered, most of the schools on my list will give you extremely generous financial aid, several with no loans. It's not definitive that a UC would be cheaper than an Ivy (assuming you get in, though).

Berkeley is super tough on pre-meds. Would not want to be fighting through that attrition. Same w/ the other UC's. Large campus also definitely means way more "sink or swim" for students. @ZedsDed

As far as I know, almost all of the core classes at UCLA/Cal are 17% A, 33% B, 33% C, 17% D/F. When I bitch about deflation I am talking about the engineering classes. Frankly, I thought the engineering classes at UCLA were exponentially more difficult than the core classes I took at Cal (my GPA in the core classes is ~3.9. Engineering? Not so much...) Whether or not you will be one of the many casualties on Berkeley's battlefield is going to largely depend on you. Though I think it's important to take into consideration the fact that Berkeley's stats are only slightly below Stanford's. Being in the top 17% of Berkeley's class may be tougher than being in the top 35% or whatever of Stanford's class.

Berkeley's prestige does surprisingly little for her applicants.

I received scholarships+grants to go to UCLA, but they really only covered books, tuition, and some of my rent. If you want the kind of money that will allow you to be unemployed or not dependent on mom and dad you should consider the Ivy League schools imo.

 

[NotYou20]

Can't agree w/ that. Statistically state U's are way deflated, have mass attrition, fewer resources, and less investment into student opportunities (as compared to top national privates).

What resources are you referring to here?

 

[ZedsDed]

Seriously. It's not the school, it's the student.

I wish that were the case. The older I get, the more I feel like life is one big d***-measuring contest. Of course you would know better than I do how much of this actually carries over into practicing medicine.

 

[WingedOx]

The older I get, the more I feel like life is one big d***-measuring contest.

Honestly it's one of the reasons I was happy to leave the East Coast. The whole academic pretentiousness thing is just idiotic...and pointless.

Instead I enjoy living in a world where Michigan State owns bragging rights over Michigan.

 

[ZedsDed]

Honestly it's one of the reasons I was happy to leave the East Coast. The whole academic pretentiousness thing is just idiotic...and pointless.

Instead I enjoy living in a world where Michigan State owns bragging rights over Michigan.

It's annoying, but I understand why people care. Prestige carries practical implications as well.

 

[ZedsDed]

@WedgeDawg Where's your list?

 

[md-2020]

What resources are you referring to here?

http://www.gradeinflation.com/ Data is old but indicative.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/same-performance-better-grades/384447/ More recent article. They quote a 3.3 average for privates and a 3.0 for publics.

Resources as in the types of activities that students can join & the help that the school gives its UGs on an individual basis. At my UG, as an econ major I got to help manage (with only 3 other students and a faculty sponser) a 500k+ portfolio (sub-section of our school's multimillion $ investment) on Wall St. Interned at several BB banks. Met influential alumni etc.

On the med side of things, 1 on 1 research opportunities that led to me being a publication machine, abundant chances to do extracurriculars, etc. Got great LORs because I got sit-downs w/ professors every week to discuss class, life, career aspirations etc. All appointed faculty are obligated (and want to) set aside additional office hours for academic/non-academic conversations with students.

Also better advising, personalized attention/ step-by-step help every semester starting as soon as I arrived on campus. When I signed up for O-Chem my soph year, I had about 5 different school organizations contact me to set up tutoring, study sessions, advising etc if needed.

I had a college advisor, career advisor, pre-med advisor, peer advisor, and alumni connection, all on a pretty permanent basis. House master also. Pretty much 24/7 office hours, extremely fast response times, willing to help with almost any request.

Many more examples.

 

[WingedOx]

It's annoying, but I understand why people care. Prestige carries practical implications as well.

It does and it doesn't. Depends on your goals. I've disclosed that I went to a good but no-name* LAC. If I'd gone to a place like Williams or Swarthmore instead, I'm sure I could have had other opportunities that weren't otherwise there, but the trade-off is I think I would have wanted to strangle most of my classmates.

Medicine is thankfully a situation where your current step can help you take the next step, but once you make that step, the previous step doesn't matter anymore.... (if that makes any sense)

*though for your typical SDN poster, ALL liberal arts colleges are obscure. I wonder what the over/under is for the number of people who could tell me what state Kenyon or Carleton are in without looking it up.

 

[ZedsDed]

I wonder what the over/under is for the number of people who could tell me what state Kenyon or Carleton are in without looking it up.

Not a clue.

 

[efle]

I think I would have wanted to strangle most of my classmates.

yeah **** people who do well in high school and want to go to college with others like that as well

 

[NotYou20]

http://www.gradeinflation.com/ Data is old but indicative.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/same-performance-better-grades/384447/ More recent article. They quote a 3.3 average for privates and a 3.0 for publics.

Resources as in the types of activities that students can join. It my UG, as an econ major I got to help manage a 500k+ portfolio on Wall St. Interned at several BB banks. Met influential alumni etc.

On the med side of things, 1 on 1 research opportunities that led to me being a publication machine, abundant chances to do extracurriculars, etc. Got great LORs because I got sit-downs w/ professors every week to discuss class, life, career aspirations etc. All appointed faculty are obligated (and want to) set aside additional office hours for academic/non-academic conversations with students.

Also better advising, personalized attention/ step-by-step help every semester starting as soon as I arrived on campus. When I signed up for O-Chem my soph year, I had about 5 different school organizations contact me to set up tutoring, study sessions, advising etc if needed.

I had a college advisor, career advisor, pre-med advisor, peer advisor, and alumni connection, all on a pretty permanent basis. House master also. Pretty much 24/7 office hours, extremely fast response times, willing to help with almost any request.

Many more examples.

The first paragraph introduces a debate about which type a given student would do better at that we've both seen before. I wouldn't really consider it a resource either.

That's a pretty cool opportunity. There are also pretty good opportunities at my state school. My best friend works many accounts for a huge marketing company, another friend has a few patents interning at a big company and I turned down a similar opportunity. I wonder how big of a difference there really is, but I have zero experience with top colleges.

Yeah we don't have that lol. The professors I did visit did all of that with me but they weren't obligated to.

I didn't go to many tutors or academic centers so I don't know how ours would compare. Sounds like something that would be helpful for a lot of people and pretty useless for others.

Eww more advisors? No thanks, my annual visit with one is plenty.

Thanks for explaining!

 

[NotYou20]

I think I would have wanted to strangle most of my classmates.

*though for your typical SDN poster, ALL liberal arts colleges are obscure. I wonder what the over/under is for the number of people who could tell me what state Kenyon or Carleton are in without looking it up.

I get the same feeling. I tend to not hang out with super academically driven people and would probably go crazy surrounded by them, despite the cool ones.

No idea, Minnesota. Do I win?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It does and it doesn't. Depends on your goals. I've disclosed that I went to a good but no-name* LAC. If I'd gone to a place like Williams or Swarthmore instead, I'm sure I could have had other opportunities that weren't otherwise there, but the trade-off is I think I would have wanted to strangle most of my classmates.

Medicine is thankfully a situation where your current step can help you take the next step, but once you make that step, the previous step doesn't matter anymore.... (if that makes any sense)

*though for your typical SDN poster, ALL liberal arts colleges are obscure. I wonder what the over/under is for the number of people who could tell me what state Kenyon or Carleton are in without looking it up.

Carleton is in the tundra. I have no idea where Kenyon is.

 

[WingedOx]

I get the same feeling. I tend to not hang out with super academically driven people and would probably go crazy surrounded by them, despite the cool ones.

No idea, Minnesota. Do I win?

Honestly it's more being around people who consider their academic achievements as part of their personal identity... and lack self awareness of how obnoxious that is, particularly when it's not backed up by any practical/life experience.

edit: I should also add that isn't just bragging about achievement. The number of non-HYP Ivy students and grads I've met over the years with raging inferiority complexes borders on the absurd (*cough*Penn*cough*).

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

No love for Johns Hopkins? Insane EC opportunities- clinical and otherwise. Chance to really get involved in an underserved urban environment. Probably one of the best schools for research in the country especially with all the opportunities for undergrads at the School of Medicine. Well respected programs in Neuroscience and Biomedical Engineering at the undergraduate level. A large pre-medical community means the university puts in a lot of effort to try and maximize the resources available to pre-meds. The prestige factor is already there, plus with the university breaking into US News top 10 this year it only continues to grow. Yes, getting grades is hard but many people do manage to get amazing GPAs which makes their application stand out even more.

 

[efle]

No love for Johns Hopkins? Insane EC opportunities- clinical and otherwise. Chance to really get involved in an underserved urban environment. Probably one of the best schools for research in the country especially with all the opportunities for undergrads at the School of Medicine. Well respected programs in Neuroscience and Biomedical Engineering at the undergraduate level. A large pre-medical community means the university puts in a lot of effort to try and maximize the resources available to pre-meds. The prestige factor is already there, plus with the university breaking into US News top 10 this year it only continues to grow. Yes, getting grades is hard but many people do manage to get amazing GPAs which makes their application stand out even more.

Unhappy students though...the reputation for cutthroat misery there (and UChicago) is pretty much unrivaled by the rest of the top 20s

 

[WedgeDawg]

@WedgeDawg Where's your list?

What?

Idk just go to the most highly regarded school that is cheap, you mesh with, and you can do well at. Tall order but it's not one size fits all.

 

[Lawpy]

Unhappy students though...the reputation for cutthroat misery there (and UChicago) is pretty much unrivaled by the rest of the top 20s

What about MIT?

 

[efle]

What about MIT?

Rough, similar with Cornell, but Chicago and Hopkins are their own "where fun goes to die" level

 

[WedgeDawg]

Okay I would say in no particular order the best undergrads for premed are Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, your flagship state school that has an attached med school, WashU, and then probably Princeton.

Obvs fit is most important.

 

[Lawpy]

Rough, similar with Cornell, but Chicago and Hopkins are their own "where fun goes to die" level

So... From most evil to least evil among harsh schools are:

Chicago = Hopkins > MIT = Cornell > Princeton > WashU = Vanderbilt?

 

[efle]

Depends if we're talking student happiness/QoL or degree of weedout/intensity/difficulty

 

[Lawpy]

Depends if we're talking student happiness/QoL or degree of weedout/intensity/difficulty

More curious about intensity/weedout

 

[efle]

More curious about intensity/weedout

My guesstimate for hardest to make the good grades would be

Chicago, Hopkins, MIT, Berkeley/UCLA
Princeton(?), Cornell, Vandy

I tend not to rank or compare Wustl in these discussions, too biased, better off asking someone like Wedgie that is more objective. Am not really familiar with premed weedout reputations of Notre Dame, Georgetown, CMU, or any but a handful of LACs. Princeton gets a (?) because of their recent removal of anti-inflation policy, may drop off the list if it eases up a bit to be more like HYS.

 

[NotAnotherPreMed]

Unhappy students though...the reputation for cutthroat misery there (and UChicago) is pretty much unrivaled by the rest of the top 20s

Honestly it's hard but not that bad at Hopkins. Plus I haven't seen examples of cutthroat behavior or even heard of anything devious taking place here. Competitiveness is definitely there but it rarely gets to an unhealthy level. Yeah it isn't a party intensive school if that's what you're looking for either but there are definitely ways to blow off steam.