Bloomberg: Hospital Employed Physicians

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http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-21/the-high-price-of-nickel-and-diming-doctors#r=read

The High Price of Nickel-and-Diming Doctors
By Shannon Pettypiece on November 21, 2012 Tweet Facebook LinkedIn Google Plus 12


Dr. Thomas Lewandowski, a Wisconsin cardiologist, had a tough choice to make in 2010 after the federal government yet again reduced the payments he received for treating Medicare patients: He could fire half his staff to keep his practice open, or sell it to a local hospital. He sold, becoming one of more than 6,000 employees at ThedaCare, which runs five hospitals and numerous clinics in the northeastern part of the state. Lewandowski is among thousands of once-independent doctors who are joining with hospital chains to stay afloat, a trend that threatens to raise the price of health care even as the federal government strains to keep a lid on costs.

Under Medicare’s tangled payment system, hospitals get higher reimbursements than individual doctors for cardiology treatment and other specialty services—in some cases a lot higher. The program pays a hospital $400 for an echocardiogram, $180 for a cardiac stress test, and more than $25 for an electrocardiogram, according to data from the American College of Cardiology. At a private physician’s office, Medicare pays $150 for an echocardiogram, $60 for a cardiac stress test, and $10 for an electrocardiogram.

Large hospital chains also have more power than individual doctors to negotiate reimbursements from insurers such as UnitedHealth Group (UNH) and WellPoint (WLP). The result: Instead of controlling costs by keeping payments to doctors down, the federal government may be driving them higher. “Clearly, in the short run, it raises costs,” says Paul Ginsburg, president of the Center for Studying Health System Change, a nonprofit research group. “A physician becomes employed by a hospital, and now a payer, like Medicare, has to start paying more.”

Since 2007, when the government began repeatedly cutting Medicare payments to doctors, the number of cardiologists working for U.S. hospitals has more than tripled, while the number in private practice has fallen 23 percent, according to the ACC. Jay Alexander, a cardiologist who co-owned a practice in Lake County, Ill., says he sold out to a local hospital after his Medicare revenue dropped 35 percent. Now the government pays Alexander three times as much to perform the same tests and procedures—far more than he would have needed to keep his private practice open. “If this was government’s solution to reducing health-care costs, they should have their heads examined,” he says. “This is an unfortunate consequence of bad planning.”

Changes beginning to take place under the 2010 Affordable Care Act are supposed to help slow this cost creep. The law encourages hospitals to move toward accepting lump-sum payments to treat a condition, rather than charging separate fees for every test and procedure. “It is part of the broader trend where physicians and hospitals are not only getting paid for the number of patients they treat but how they manage the health of their patients,” says Simon Gisby, managing director of the Life Science and Healthcare practice at Deloitte Corporate Finance. But that shift may take years to complete, with most hospitals still getting paid piecemeal.

For cardiologists, working for a hospital has a good and a bad side. While they gain more stable incomes, they have to follow strict hospital guidelines that limit their ability to personalize treatment. They’re also pressured to see more patients each day. “I miss being in private practice and being my own boss,” says Alexander, the Illinois cardiologist. “I would have said 30 years ago that I planned on dying with my boots on and practicing until I couldn’t practice anymore. Now, do I look forward to retirement? Yes.”

The bottom line: Under Medicare’s bizarre rules, hospital doctors are paid as much as three times more for patient care than those in private practice.

Pettypiece is a reporter for Bloomberg News in New York.

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Very sad but I don't think it's bad planning as pointed out in the article. I think this is exactly what the government intends.

Kill private practice and wrangle all the docs in under hospital control. Then start going after the hospitals. All part of the grand plan to achieve socialized medicine.
 
the problem is their conclusion.

The bottom line: Under Medicare's bizarre rules, hospital doctors are paid as much as three times more for patient care than those in private practice.

the hospital doctors are not being paid 3 times as much. the hospital system is - sometimes - being paid 3 times as much as a private doctor. the doctor is probably getting a lot less.

conclusions like that are sure to rile up laypeople who cant/dont understand how hospitals pay their employees, and they will blame us physicians again.
 
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As someone who came into Pain from a hospital based specialty here's my take on this (I technically was not a hospital employee, but was as close as you can get without technically being a direct employee)-

I think physicians who take the hospital-employeed route for the short term financial incentives are going to pay dearly in the long run. This pendulum has swung back and forth before. Once they have enough of us under their control with a controlling monopoly, they will tighten the screws on all physicians under their control, in every way possible, be it financial, ethical, hours, call, autonomy, medicolegal or other.

At that point, the hospital-employed physicians will beg for the "good old days."

I'm going to avoid the employee role as long as possible.
 
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What model would you suggest for those of us currently in fellowship getting ready to graduate in this climate?
 
I agree the pendulum will eventually swing back. Monopoly, which is the current government plan to "force down the cost of healthcare" will NEVER deliver the quality/cost that a free market can. Or I should say "could", because we are a far-cry from a free market in healthcare at this point. Anyway, the more we suppress the free market and consolidate care in large organizations the more quality will suffer. If it's not obvious now, it will certainly become obvious in the future.
 
What model would you suggest for those of us currently in fellowship getting ready to graduate in this climate?

I personally chose to go with a large multi-specialty physician-owned group. It's mostly PCPs and some IM subspecialists (no surgeons) and I'm the only Pain guy. I get the feeling that as long as I'm not losing money for them long term, they're ecstatic to have me. To me this seems like the best of both worlds. I get quite a bit of autonomy in how I practice, yet have the security and built-in referrals of a large group. I'm only 4 months out, so I need another year or so to fully assess it, but so far it seems to be working out well. I don't have the full autonomy of single doc practice (or the risk) but have a lot more freedom than just being an employee of a hospital.

The more seasoned guys can chime in on whether they think this setup is good or not.
 
I personally chose to go with a large multi-specialty physician-owned group. It's mostly PCPs and some IM subspecialists (no surgeons) and I'm the only Pain guy. I get the feeling that as long as I'm not losing money for them long term, they're ecstatic to have me. To me this seems like the best of both worlds. I get quite a bit of autonomy in how I practice, yet have the security and built-in referrals of a large group. I'm only 4 months out, so I need another year or so to fully assess it, but so far it seems to be working out well. I don't have the full autonomy of single doc practice (or the risk) but have a lot more freedom than just being an employee of a hospital.

The more seasoned guys can chime in on whether they think this setup is good or not.

1+

The BIG caveat is who your partners are. I worked for 6yrs in Kaiser N. CA, with nice people. Didn't make much money but had lots of perks: good retirement, good hours, easily $12K/yr of medical journals:) But, there was a lot of politics involved if you opted to climb the ladder. I'm not a politician, so I left.
 
You can thank your traitor democrat physician colleagues who voted Osamacare into office. Apparently they welcome government control and are happy to lose their practices and careers
 
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Ligament
Clear out your private messages
 
emd, you were a hospital employee. "contracted" ED docs are still not private. i was one for 3 years before joining an academic hospital group. there is no difference.

it still seems as if you are not truly private. you are still beholden to the admin in your multigroup specialty, you still have to play the politics game, and as soon as one admin or PCP, has it in for you, you are done.


regardless of how you look at it, and decry the slow death of private practice, the current model of private practice with medicare/caid is not adequate or controlling costs at all. you can argue against obamacare, etc. but something has to change - even romney and his side agreed with this. status quo wasnt an option.


PP will be around but it will be specialty medicine, and that is how it is in American industry. name a single industry that is primarily operated by the little man, and one can name the multitude of other industries that are now dominated by corporations.

Your local pharmacy? the vast majority are Walgreens and Rite Aids. Your local grocer? Krogers, Wegmans, Trader Joes. Your local gas pump? Sonoco, Shell, Hess. Your 5 and Dime? Walmart, Target. People used to get soda from their local pharmacy/fountain. now its Pepsi or Coke.


in the new era, its going to be the hospitals and systems that dominate the landscape. join the crowd, or struggle to pay the monthly bill...
 
You can thank your traitor democrat physician colleagues who voted Osamacare into office. Apparently they welcome government control and are happy to lose their practices and careers

yawn.

work in the system to change it, or become an ornery, disgruntled, poor doctor.
 
yawn.

work in the system to change it, or become an ornery, disgruntled, poor doctor.

So you choose to change it in the worst way possible, destroying your own career. The system is the problem, working "in" it will do nothing. I am ornery, I am extremely disgruntled, and I will likely be poor due to Obamacare, as will you.

Btw, I'm not a disgruntled Republican. Romney and Obama are both worthless. I'm a libertarian if anything.

It is people like you, who are more than happy to bend over and take it up the butt from the government, that are destroying our profession. I cannot fathom how in any way Obamacare is good for any of our careers, and I have yet to hear any remotely good argument from any physician how Obamacare, increased beauty racy, and decreased physician autonomy are GOOD for physicians. Tell me, please, how YOUR career will be edit from Obamacare?

For my part, I distributed anti Obamacare flyers to all my patients, posted anti Obamacare articles on my clinic website, called and wrote to my representatives and Senator.
 
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So you choose to change it in the worst way possible, destroying your own career. The system is the problem, working "in" it will do nothing. I am ornery, I am extremely disgruntled, and I will likely be poor due to Obamacare, as will you.

Btw, I'm not a disgruntled Republican. Romney and Obama are both worthless. I'm a libertarian if anything.

It is people like you, who are more than happy to bend over and take it up the butt from the government, that are destroying our profession. I cannot fathom how in any way Obamacare is good for any of our careers, and I have yet to hear any remotely good argument from any physician how Obamacare, increased beauty racy, and decreased physician autonomy are GOOD for physicians. Tell me, please, how YOUR career will be edit from Obamacare?

For my part, I distributed anti Obamacare flyers to all my patients, posted anti Obamacare articles on my clinic website, called and wrote to my representatives and Senator.

unless you postulate an alternative, one that addresses the core issues, then your opinion is just loud banging in the background. if its broken, dont just sit around, mope, bitch and moan that it doesnt work any more. what do you want to do with our healthcare system??


i am not "for" obamacare, far be it. but i am a pragmatist. thats why i know that i will continue to make money as a doctor - and way more than i was making as an ED doc, when i was working twice has hard as i am now.

(EDIT: before going back to retraining, i thought about changing ED jobs. the salary offer? not even 6 figures, working 42 hours a week. i seriously considered it...)
 
The answer is clear: tort reform, cash pay, eliminate all third party payors. Charity care will work if we are allowed to afford it. People need to die when it is time. No universal health coverage.

The AAPS has been offering the solution for decades.

Replacing one evil with a greater one does nothing but make things worse. The government t has proven itself to be fully incapable of dealing with healthcare- what more proof do you need than Medicare and Medicaid?

We are treated as CRIMINAL SUSPECTS at all times by our own government! Under or overcode, go to jail. HIPPAA violation? Go bankrupt.
 
unless you postulate an alternative, one that addresses the core issues,..

What are the "core issues"?

To me the core issue is that the govt is bankrupt and continues to accrue more obligation to its citizens that it can't pay for, accruing up debt that is unsustainable. The core issue to me is the unsustainability of the country.

If the core issue is that outcomes are unequal (some are rich, some are poor, some have good health insurance, others don't), I would argue these are core issues with human nature that can't be addressed with govt.
 
As to ligaments post....


So the doctrine that we are all created equal holds true, until money decides who lives and who dies? Those who can afford cash care get it, the rest get a funeral?

That seems unusually harsh, and not in live with our mores to help all of our fellow man . I thought we were more civilized than this caveman mentality.
 
As to ligaments post....


So the doctrine that we are all created equal holds true, until money decides who lives and who dies? Those who can afford cash care get it, the rest get a funeral?

That seems unusually harsh, and not in live with our mores to help all of our fellow man . I thought we were more civilized than this caveman mentality.

Not created equal or even evolved equal. Genetic heterogeneity assures us of varied disease processes and protections.

There is not a right to another mans work. There is a right to pursue happiness but not a right to be happy.
 
Not created equal or even evolved equal. Genetic heterogeneity assures us of varied disease processes and protections.

There is not a right to another mans work. There is a right to pursue happiness but not a right to be happy.

you are confusing individual patient differences with socioeconomic status differences. i am discussing access to medical care, not specifically individual treatments.


unfortunately for us, in a dog eat dog world, what pain docs do will indubitably be rated as fairly optional. few patients will pay cold hard cash in the amount of $200+, especially if the average family makes $50k a year.
 
As to ligaments post....


So the doctrine that we are all created equal holds true, until money decides who lives and who dies? Those who can afford cash care get it, the rest get a funeral?

That seems unusually harsh, and not in live with our mores to help all of our fellow man . I thought we were more civilized than this caveman mentality.

You are perfect to lead the socialized medicine movement.
 
As to ligaments post....


So the doctrine that we are all created equal holds true, until money decides who lives and who dies? Those who can afford cash care get it, the rest get a funeral?

That seems unusually harsh, and not in live with our mores to help all of our fellow man . I thought we were more civilized than this caveman mentality.

If you want to make zero money and help all of fellow man, become a monk, not a physician.

And yes, no pay, no play. There is always the option of charity care, which I am happy to administer to the needy, if the government and insurance companies allow me to make sufficient profit to do so.

But if you try to force my hand and steal my labor, you condemn me to a slave of the state.
 
If you want to make zero money and help all of fellow man, become a monk, not a physician.

And yes, no pay, no play. There is always the option of charity care, which I am happy to administer to the needy, if the government and insurance companies allow me to make sufficient profit to do so.

But if you try to force my hand and steal my labor, you condemn me to a slave of the state.


everything's black or white, huh? either your with me or against me. if you are not a physician, you are a monk. no money, no care.

that is a very difficult way to live. and since you dont appear to be the supreme executive commander of the united states, it looks like you are going to be in for decades and decades of disappointment.
 
Hey folks:

- we can complain to each other all we want but we are complaining to the wrong people
- internal fighting and cat herding mentality has gotten doc's to their current place of nil political clout--find some common ground and stick to it

soap box off
 
If you want to make zero money and help all of fellow man, become a monk, not a physician.

And yes, no pay, no play. There is always the option of charity care, which I am happy to administer to the needy, if the government and insurance companies allow me to make sufficient profit to do so.

But if you try to force my hand and steal my labor, you condemn me to a slave of the state.


unless you prescribe oodles of opioids, sir, you will be a very poor man in your system.
 
you are confusing individual patient differences with socioeconomic status differences. i am discussing access to medical care, not specifically individual treatments.


unfortunately for us, in a dog eat dog world, what pain docs do will indubitably be rated as fairly optional. few patients will pay cold hard cash in the amount of $200+, especially if the average family makes $50k a year.

Muffler costs more(they always need new exhaust piping) and patients have the cash for this and a dlb mocha extra whip venti latte every day
 
See my thread in docs only folder.... update on these issues
 
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-21/the-high-price-of-nickel-and-diming-doctors#r=read

The bottom line: Under Medicare’s bizarre rules, hospital doctors are paid as much as three times more for patient care than those in private practice.

Pettypiece is a reporter for Bloomberg News in New York.

The chickens always come home to roost. I saw a lot of physicians trading away autonomy for the magic beans promised by the ACO's. Now, coincidentally around the time those contracts are resetting, everyone's falling out of love with their hospital employers. Curious.
 
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Listen the Aca is not as horrific in some states... Yes I said it.
It should be modified as it cannot exist in its current state. More patients are going bankrupt using it and/or not even using theirplans (Gallup shows 30% of insured not using benefits ), which is bad for hospitals and pp...
When you folks get back into your private practices really negotiate for higher Aca rates, they are desperate for pp network doctors.... And abandoned medicaid, which 70% of Aca patients were dumped into...
 
Stim4me... that made no sense. Can u explain.
 
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Stim4me... that made no sense. Can u explain.
There are probably 3-4 Aca carriers in your state. Negotiate and get > 150% of Medicare rates. Some will comply some will not... United tried to tie there commercial plans to their Aca plans. That was my final straw, I pulled out, the increased rates to all plans to retain network providers.... Negotiate get good rates. Screw ovamacare
 
What are aca plans? R u talking about exchange plans?
 
There are probably 3-4 Aca carriers in your state. Negotiate and get > 150% of Medicare rates. Some will comply some will not... United tried to tie there commercial plans to their Aca plans. That was my final straw, I pulled out, the increased rates to all plans to retain network providers.... Negotiate get good rates. Screw ovamacare

None are budging yet in my area. One of the clinics I subcontract at accepts these plans. Access is terrible. I've recently been referred a few patients from the local county hospital. Has never happened before.
 
What are aca plans? R u talking about exchange plans?
United, oxford, bcbs, have separate Aca plans. My state has two additional ones. So I accept three of them at 160% of Medicare rate, I don't take bcbs because they pay -10% of Medicare!!! It really depends on your state , and competition of carriers. These insurance are capped in profit due to the Aca. They make money by ramping up their exchange patient volume, thus should be willing to negotiate your rates...hope that helps a few of you....
 
Ok that's what I thought u meant. In my state those plans are all less than medicare and suck....
 
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