Box checking

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Chemistry>Physics

Puggy
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2013
Messages
169
Reaction score
57
What are the best EC's you guys have done in your time during undergrad? The ones you felt really made you a competitive candidate.

Also do med schools value small two week medical related research trips?

Sorry for two very different questions. Thank you for your responses in advance!!

Members don't see this ad.
 
1.) I think research and employment in a medical setting are my best ECs.
2.) If you mean mission trips, not really. I don't know what a 2 week long research trip is though...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
i worked with kids at an afterschool program. really liked it and cared about those kids. enjoyed talking about it
shadowing as i could tell them what i liked about being a doctor
volunteering because i could tell them what i liked about dealing with patients

2 week trips are useless
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Research, preferably with publications, and long-term volunteering on the order of hundreds of hours are probably the two most important things you can do.

Not really? Sure they're important, but work experience, leadership positions, etc. Are also important. It comes down to what you put in and what you got out.
 
Originally posted here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-take-next-year-after-junior-year-off.1113782/

Understand that what I'm about to talk about is a very fuzzy topic. I'm putting boundaries on things that really don't have boundaries and explaining a thought process that is largely subconscious... There are three broad categories of ECs. Leisure activities, neutral, and altruistic. There is nothing wrong with enjoying or doing any of them. However, there is a reason adcoms are looking for certain kinds of activities. Medicine is a lot of science, but it is by and large a people profession. It is also a profession that is dominated by the concept of helping other people. No, you don't have to be the next Mother Theresa, but a good part of your time will be in the service of others. If you can't handle that, you will be miserable. No, it does not make you a bad person. It just makes you a poor fit for what most physicians do every day. No matter how bad of a day I'm having in the hospital, virtually every single one of my patients is having a worse day, after all, they are in the hospital, seeing me. Certainly not every physician's practice is like that, but most physicians will have something similar to say about helping their patients.

  • Leisure activities are those that you do for yourself. The focus is on you. Most hobbies/sports fall into this category. I would say that if you could potentially scratch out an EC and it wouldn't negatively impact other people or your life, then it is leisure. We like to see people that have leisure activities. Being able to have fun and focus on non-academic things is important. Everyone wants to be around people with hobbies, it makes for a more interesting class.
  • Neutral activities are things that you have to do. For example, if you have to work because you are paying for school or supporting family etc. It is a limitation on your time that is just something that has to be done. This is something that needs to be considered when looking at GPAs or how involved people are in other activities.
  • Altruistic activities are things where the focus is on other people. Things that better the lives of others primarily. Things that demonstrate that you spend at least a small amount of your time thinking about the needs of others instead of your own. This is where the, "What % of your time do you spend doing different things?" comes in. I'm not saying that someone that devotes <1% of their free time to others can't be a good physician or get enjoyment out of it. But, everything else being equal, I'd strongly prefer someone that is much higher as I think that their chances of success are much higher.

Regarding productivity. Virtually any activity can be productive. It is more about what you do with an activity than what the activity itself is. For instance, if you are in research for 2000 hours, what did you produce? Conceivably, someone paid you or you got academic credits, or at the very least you invested your time into it. So, what came of it? What tangibly shows that you weren't goofing off and getting nothing out of it. The easiest to appreciate are publications, posters, abstracts etc. Strong letters of recommendation are another. I'm not talking about a good letter, I'm talking about, "It is tragic that none of his work was published because he has made significant contributions to our lab including X, Y, and Z." And more importantly in a LOR like that, what is your analagous Wins Above Replacement, compared to if the lab hired someone else. I'm not that creative, so I'll go through the applications sitting on my desk right now and pick out the single most "productive" things I can find that they did before medical school.

Restructured soup kitchen, tripled meals served by reallocating resources.
Top 3 rank, nationally fencing
2 years research, x1 first author in low impact, 2 presentations
2 years research, x2 non-first author publications, one in Cell, the other PNAS
1 year research, x2 presentations, x1 award from presentation
3 months fundraising and 3 months (Summer) digging wells in Kenya
5 years habitat for humanity from HS to present
2 Summers teaching English in a Lebanese refugee camp

Yes, I cherry picked from ~30 applications. There are certainly a lot of people with very good scores that played video games, worked on their hobbies and are perfectly good people. But, there are also a lot of pretty amazing people out there doing a lot of amazing things. Being productive is about dedication, passion, hard work and perseverance. ie. what we want from our medical students. I interviewed at most of the top 10 as well as several other more local places. Virtually everyone you meet on the trail is going to be a good student. Some better than others. But, it was very obvious when talking to other applicants at the top schools that I was a small fish in a very big sea of stellar applicants.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Not really? Sure they're important, but work experience, leadership positions, etc. Are also important. It comes down to what you put in and what you got out.

I'm not sure if you are asking a question or not given the question mark. How are you defining work experience and leadership positions? Secretary-treasures of student-run organizations are a dime a dozen. I would only care if you actually accomplish something other than running meetings or keeping track of your thousand dollar budget. Likewise, work experience is ill-defined. Did you work as a freshman TA? That's mildly interesting, but not exactly awe-inspiring.
 
I'm not sure if you are asking a question or not given the question mark. How are you defining work experience and leadership positions? Secretary-treasures of student-run organizations are a dime a dozen. I would only care if you actually accomplish something other than running meetings or keeping track of your thousand dollar budget. Likewise, work experience is ill-defined. Did you work as a freshman TA? That's mildly interesting, but not exactly awe-inspiring.

I've had two full time jobs since I graduated over four years ago, and also worked for residential life and a community health center through college. Your conjecture is amusing though. I would suggest re-reading the last sentence I wrote. Also, mimelim's post highlights that while research is definitely important, there are other things that show passion and dedication that aren't related to research.

While research is awesome, it's not required for med school or residency. It just depends on what you're interested in. Guessing you know far more about that than I do though!
 
Last edited:
Originally posted here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-take-next-year-after-junior-year-off.1113782/

Understand that what I'm about to talk about is a very fuzzy topic. I'm putting boundaries on things that really don't have boundaries and explaining a thought process that is largely subconscious... There are three broad categories of ECs. Leisure activities, neutral, and altruistic. There is nothing wrong with enjoying or doing any of them. However, there is a reason adcoms are looking for certain kinds of activities. Medicine is a lot of science, but it is by and large a people profession. It is also a profession that is dominated by the concept of helping other people. No, you don't have to be the next Mother Theresa, but a good part of your time will be in the service of others. If you can't handle that, you will be miserable. No, it does not make you a bad person. It just makes you a poor fit for what most physicians do every day. No matter how bad of a day I'm having in the hospital, virtually every single one of my patients is having a worse day, after all, they are in the hospital, seeing me. Certainly not every physician's practice is like that, but most physicians will have something similar to say about helping their patients.

  • Leisure activities are those that you do for yourself. The focus is on you. Most hobbies/sports fall into this category. I would say that if you could potentially scratch out an EC and it wouldn't negatively impact other people or your life, then it is leisure. We like to see people that have leisure activities. Being able to have fun and focus on non-academic things is important. Everyone wants to be around people with hobbies, it makes for a more interesting class.
  • Neutral activities are things that you have to do. For example, if you have to work because you are paying for school or supporting family etc. It is a limitation on your time that is just something that has to be done. This is something that needs to be considered when looking at GPAs or how involved people are in other activities.
  • Altruistic activities are things where the focus is on other people. Things that better the lives of others primarily. Things that demonstrate that you spend at least a small amount of your time thinking about the needs of others instead of your own. This is where the, "What % of your time do you spend doing different things?" comes in. I'm not saying that someone that devotes <1% of their free time to others can't be a good physician or get enjoyment out of it. But, everything else being equal, I'd strongly prefer someone that is much higher as I think that their chances of success are much higher.

Regarding productivity. Virtually any activity can be productive. It is more about what you do with an activity than what the activity itself is. For instance, if you are in research for 2000 hours, what did you produce? Conceivably, someone paid you or you got academic credits, or at the very least you invested your time into it. So, what came of it? What tangibly shows that you weren't goofing off and getting nothing out of it. The easiest to appreciate are publications, posters, abstracts etc. Strong letters of recommendation are another. I'm not talking about a good letter, I'm talking about, "It is tragic that none of his work was published because he has made significant contributions to our lab including X, Y, and Z." And more importantly in a LOR like that, what is your analagous Wins Above Replacement, compared to if the lab hired someone else. I'm not that creative, so I'll go through the applications sitting on my desk right now and pick out the single most "productive" things I can find that they did before medical school.

Restructured soup kitchen, tripled meals served by reallocating resources.
Top 3 rank, nationally fencing
2 years research, x1 first author in low impact, 2 presentations
2 years research, x2 non-first author publications, one in Cell, the other PNAS
1 year research, x2 presentations, x1 award from presentation
3 months fundraising and 3 months (Summer) digging wells in Kenya
5 years habitat for humanity from HS to present
2 Summers teaching English in a Lebanese refugee camp

Yes, I cherry picked from ~30 applications. There are certainly a lot of people with very good scores that played video games, worked on their hobbies and are perfectly good people. But, there are also a lot of pretty amazing people out there doing a lot of amazing things. Being productive is about dedication, passion, hard work and perseverance. ie. what we want from our medical students. I interviewed at most of the top 10 as well as several other more local places. Virtually everyone you meet on the trail is going to be a good student. Some better than others. But, it was very obvious when talking to other applicants at the top schools that I was a small fish in a very big sea of stellar applicants.
What type of "balance" do you think an appilcant should have to these activities? Just wondering because say you didn't have any neutral activities? (Worked a lot in HS, don't want to work 20 hours a week in college, would rather volunteer that time instead) How important are each of those three EC categories to you? 30% Leisure 10% Neutral and 60% Altrusitic?

Also, is a medical publishment in high school (senior year) worth putting on a med school app? Eagle scout? and 2000+ hours of high school volunteering? Is the general rule of thumb "don't include anything on the med school app from high school"? does that rule still pertain to lifetime achievements like eagle scouts or a publishment?

This post was on the money by the way. Thank you as always Mimelim
 
Last edited:
Combat medic before undergrad. lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
What type of "balance" do you think an appilcant should have to these activities? Just wondering because say you didn't have any neutral activities? (Worked a lot in HS, don't want to work 20 hours a week in college, would rather volunteer that time instead) How important are each of those three EC categories to you? 30% Leisure 10% Neutral and 60% Altrusitic?

Also, is a medical publishment in high school (senior year) worth putting on a med school app? Eagle scout? and 2000+ hours of high school volunteering? Is the general rule of thumb "don't include anything on the med school app from high school"? does that rule still pertain to lifetime achievements like eagle scouts or a publishment?

This post was on the money by the way. Thank you as always Mimelim

I think Eagle Scout is still something you should put on your resume. Same with publication, but it depends on what it is.

You're trying to quantify something that has no right answer. It just doesn't make sense to break it down the way you're trying to.

Go be involved in things in college, work if you need to (or want to), and try to get the most out of the experience. It's really not rocket science, but it is a quality over quantity type of thing and dedication matters. I.e. if you're involved in something for years and lots of hours, it's far better than having a few random activities for a few months at a time.
 
What type of "balance" do you think an appilcant should have to these activities? Just wondering because say you didn't have any neutral activities? (Worked a lot in HS, don't want to work 20 hours a week in college, would rather volunteer that time instead) How important are each of those three EC categories to you? 30% Leisure 10% Neutral and 60% Altrusitic?

Also, is a medical publishment in high school (senior year) worth putting on a med school app? Eagle scout? and 2000+ hours of high school volunteering? Is the general rule of thumb "don't include anything on the med school app from high school"? does that rule still pertain to lifetime achievements like eagle scouts or a publishment?

This post was on the money by the way. Thank you as always Mimelim

Neutral is what it is for people. If you don't have to work, then don't work. Nobody will hold that against you. I would be a little worried about someone who is 90%+ leisure. But, as @ridethecliche said, it isn't something that can really be quantified. The numbers are just an easy way for me to explain things, but nobody actually sits there and calculates it out as there really isn't a good way of comparing people anyways. Publication at any point should be included in a medical school application. Eagle scout should be on your application. There was a Wash U. faculty adcom that I knew pretty well that really liked Eagle scouts (was one himself) and would always up talk them. When I was in undergrad, I gave him crap about it and we got into a pretty heated argument about the merits of being an Eagle scout. HS volunteering not so much, if you spend time volunteering, it should be obvious from what you do in undergrad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It honestly shocked me when the dean of admissions at one of the schools I interviewed at was talking to everyone in a group and going over 'interesting' things in their application.

My undergrad had program houses, i.e. places where you could choose to live that had a mission. I lived in one of those my sophomore year, managed it my jr year (a reslife job), and then went on to manage RA's my senior year (senior most student reslife job). That's what the dean chose to talk to me about and I had totally forgotten about it because while it was a blast, I viewed it as a job and it was over 4 years ago (I graduated in 2010).

That is what stuck out on my application for him. It required a lot of work, leadership, team building, etc and I mentioned it as one of my 3 most meaningful activities. It's not research, not community service, but a leadership position that was a job. I've also done the others, but I'm just pointing this out since it was apparently what caught a deans eye.

I took this as a lesson that I should talk this up more at interviews as I found this out at my 3rd interview. I'm lucky that the most important ones are still coming up.

My point is simply that if you put together a cookie cutter application, you won't stand out. You have to explore your interests and find something that is meaningful to you and that you can contribute to and grow from. That's the important bit that gets lost when you try to check off boxes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
@ridethecliche That was a really informative response thanks by the way, when you say
My point is simply that if you put together a cookie cutter application, you won't stand out. You have to explore your interests and find something that is meaningful to you and that you can contribute to and grow from. That's the important bit that gets lost when you try to check off boxes.
what is your definition of a cookie cutter app? Sorry to keep quantifying this more but is the volunteering/research/leadership positions and bio major going to make you just like the rest? How would you think a mimelim approved activity like "3 months fundraising and 3 months (Summer) digging wells in Kenya" pan out? Would that be under the cookie cutter catagory?
 
If you do something for an extremely short time, say hospital volunteering, and then stop once you hit like 100 hours or so. That's checking off a box. If you do 4-8 hrs a week for 2 years, then that shows continuity.
I think short service trips (spring break etc) are 'meh'. I did one. I didn't bother writing about it.
 
Top