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They're all basically the same regarding USMLE pass rate. SGU and Ross have slightly better residency placement rates, I think. Uncertain how you would rank faculty support.1) The ranking of the big four. Including their average gpa and mcat. USMLE/ Complex passing rate. Success of matching into residency. Support from faculties.
It's a Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree. An "IMG MD" isn't really a recognized thing as far as I know.2) The type of degree earned after graduating from the big four.
From what I have gathered. Graduates earn IMG MD. Is that right?
Mostly in the US, Canada, the UK, and the Caribbean.3a) Where do graduates usually practice?
About 60% go into primary care, the rest are well represented in most specialties. We seem to graduate an above-average number of ED physicians.3b) What do they usually specialize in?
We have no practicing restrictions. Students that do the KBT program cannot do their clerkships in year 3 and 4 in New Jersey.4) Where in US are graduates rejected from pacticing?
Vetted schools with above average placement rates for residencies.5) Benefit of attending the big four
Compared to what? Not going to medical school at all? Going USDO? Going USMD? Going non-Big 4 Caribbean?6) Negative of attending the big four
I think SGU is the most expensive, about $270k for most students. I think average for a US school is about $200k for reference.6) The average cost of attending the big four compared to MD or DO. (I heard that it costs A LOT)
Accepts US federal loans and Canadian government loans. Don't need private loans.7) Availability of student loan/ financial aid
Hot, tropics, mosquitos, humid, wet rainy season and lengthy dry season with occasional droughts. Students are a huge spectrum, 19yo's to 59yo's. Some are partiers and some are studious. Lots of social events (too many, in my opinion). Lots of outdoor social events.8) Environment/ Weather/ social atmosphere/ the girls/ guys.
No.9) Are classes taught in spanish?
Yes, pretty much the same as any US school. Bio, G-Chem, O-Chem, Anat, Gen physics, etc. I'm pretty certain Spanish isn't required. MCAT is also required.10) Are there prerequisite courses that need to be taken? I know that for the carribean schools on AMCAS, 2 semesters of spanish are required.
Not easy. I'm not sure what answers you expect from this question? Med school is hard. We all pretty much take the same courses because we all take the same licensing exams.11) How difficult are the classes
Virtually no gunners. Very helpful student body, plenty of study groups.12) How strong are the student support groups? Are students actively helping each other via study groups or people are cut throat like Berkeley?
Varies from class to class. We have lots of visiting professors from US schools. Classes like Pathology, Anatomy, and Physio have specialists teach each system. A class like Immuno may only have a single prof though.13) Staff/ professor availability ( according to dimsum: the big four typically have 4-5 professors)
SGU will accept students with lower scores into the MPH/MD program that they won't accept straight into the MD program. It's basically a way for the school to wring more money out of you. A Caribbean MPH is pretty useless outside of the Caribbean for residency and career prospects. Some people do it for personal interest in public health, though.14) explain the MPH/ MD program mentioned by Mr. Happy (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/another-what-are-my-chances-thread-low-gpa.1079512/)
Caribbean English with some local patois/slang.15) Language spoken by natives
Assuming you're not brain-dead during the interview, you should be fine.16) Now for the question people hate to read the most: What is my chance of getting into the big four with my stat:
My GPA is a 3.1, MCAT is 29 (12 PS, 7 VR, 10 BS)
The quality of these things don't matter, just that you have them on your application.I have decent extracurricular activities:
-Shadowed doctor
-2 publications with three separate research experiences.
-Pre-med chapter officer for consecutive years
-Ambassador of 3rd world country outreach program. Actually traveled to 3rd world countries to shadow doctors and interact with locals
-Founded a healthcare initiative organization and led medical students lobby for healthcare reform in the CA capitol
-Camp counselor for children with muscular dystrophy.
-2000+ volunteer hours
-Hospital work
-Tutored underprivileged high school students.
LOR:
2 Strong Science Professor, 1 non-science, 2 MD doctors.
ED is what people that didn't learn about medicine from TV call an Emergency Department in the United States. In most Commonwealth countries, they're referred to as A&Es, accident and emergency departments.@bedevilled ben Thank you so much for your replies.
Your answers have been extremely helpful.
I have a couple questions regarding your replies:
"We seem to graduate an above-average number of ED physicians"
1) Do you mean ER physician? Because google doesn't tell me what ED stands for.
"Mostly in the US, Canada, the UK, and the Caribbean."
2) Could graduates practice outside of these regions?
"We have no practicing restrictions. Students that do the KBT program cannot do their clerkships in year 3 and 4 in New Jersey."
3a) What's a KBT program?
3b) I have also heard that Texas doesn't accept Caribbean students, is that true?
"Vetted schools with above average placement rates for residencies."
4) I have been browsing around SDN forum. People seem to suggest otherwise. They say that Caribbean students have lower chance of matching into residencies than MD and DO. Where did you get this info?
"Negatives of attending Caribbean schools"
5a) If there is no downside to attending Caribbean schools, how come there are stigmas and people usually avoid them?
5b)There has to be reasons why people would choose USMD and DO over Caribbean, do you know some of these reasons?
--> Quoting @JaggerPlate (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/interesting-thread-comparing-carib-sgu-to-do.796926/):
DO > Caribbean. Still ... and always.
5c) Also, I have heard that Caribbean schools have alarming low pass rate for USMLE/ complex. And especially low graduation
--> Quoting @Seth Joo (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...bashes-do-school.1050379/page-3#post-14869633) :
"Caribbean schools accept students knowing that a very large percent will not graduate and will not become doctors."
--> Quoting @Ibn Alnafis MD (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...bashes-do-school.1050379/page-3#post-14869633):
70% (overall match rate for Caribbean schools)is extremely low, especially if we take in consideration that this rate is AFTER 30-50% attrition rate. All in all, those who went to the Caribbean, be it SGU or Saba, have a 50% chance of never practicing medicine in the US.
5d) Could you address this 30-50% attrition rate? Is this common?
No, I mean an ED physician. As MadJack said, ED = emergency department. Also called an emergency medicine/EM physician. Emergency rooms were staffed by internists and ceased being just "rooms" a long time ago, so the name has changed as the speciality differentiated itself. It just hasn't filtered down into the general vernacular yet. I blame Crichton's late 90's TV show ER for this."We seem to graduate an above-average number of ED physicians"
1) Do you mean ER physician? Because google doesn't tell me what ED stands for.
Of course. We're licensed to practice everywhere, this is just where the vast majority of students end up."Mostly in the US, Canada, the UK, and the Caribbean."
2) Could graduates practice outside of these regions?
KBT is the Keith B. Taylor global scholars program, a study abroad program that SGU offers. Students complete MS1 of basic sciences in Newcastle in the UK at a sister university and then join the MS2 class on the island of Grenada in the Caribbean the following year. Because they do not complete their first 2 years of basic science education in the same country, they are ineligible to do their MS3 and MS4 clerkships in New Jersey because of some bizarre wording of their state regulations. Caribbean IMGs from the Big 4 schools can all practice in all 50 states, including Texas."We have no practicing restrictions. Students that do the KBT program cannot do their clerkships in year 3 and 4 in New Jersey."
3a) What's a KBT program?
3b) I have also heard that Texas doesn't accept Caribbean students, is that true?
Sorry, I should have clarified. Compared to other Caribbean schools, the Big 4 graduate and match students into residencies at a much higher rate than other Caribbean schools, and they are unfairly often all grouped together as just "Caribbean graduates"."Vetted schools with above average placement rates for residencies."
4) I have been browsing around SDN forum. People seem to suggest otherwise. They say that Caribbean students have lower chance of matching into residencies than MD and DO. Where did you get this info?
"Negatives of attending Caribbean schools"
5a) If there is no downside to attending Caribbean schools, how come there are stigmas and people usually avoid them?
5b)There has to be reasons why people would choose USMD and DO over Caribbean, do you know some of these reasons?
--> Quoting @JaggerPlate (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/interesting-thread-comparing-carib-sgu-to-do.796926/):
DO > Caribbean. Still ... and always.
5c) Also, I have heard that Caribbean schools have alarming low pass rate for USMLE/ complex. And especially low graduation
--> Quoting @Seth Joo (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...bashes-do-school.1050379/page-3#post-14869633) :
"Caribbean schools accept students knowing that a very large percent will not graduate and will not become doctors."
--> Quoting @Ibn Alnafis MD (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...bashes-do-school.1050379/page-3#post-14869633):
70% (overall match rate for Caribbean schools)is extremely low, especially if we take in consideration that this rate is AFTER 30-50% attrition rate. All in all, those who went to the Caribbean, be it SGU or Saba, have a 50% chance of never practicing medicine in the US.
5d) Could you address this 30-50% attrition rate? Is this common?
Oh wow, thank you, I didn't know that.
This question is for @bedevilled ben.
So I asked around the SDN forum, somebody pointed this out as a "negative" aspect of Caribbean schools, it would be awesome if you could address/ counter this issue:
In the Caribbean, 50% of your class will be gone by 2nd year. Of those remaining, 50% will get a residency. As a Caribbean student, you have a 75% chance to end up in debt with no job. If you're in the luck 25%, which will diminish with all the new MD and DO schools opening, you're pretty much stuck into primary care or psychiatry. If that's your ambition, no problem, but if you find out that you really love Urology or Otolaryngology, that will never happen. At least with DO school you have a chance. Yes, there are some that make it into EM or Gas, but I assure you that for a Caribbean graduates that's the equivalent of a DO matching into a top specialty.
Getting into DO school right now is open field for anyone willing to put in the work to increase their GPA, EC and MCAT. Lucky for you, you only need to work on your GPA. Don't waste your time in the Caribbean just because you're desperate to get into medical school. Getting in is exciting and fun, but it won't matter if you can't make it into a residency. Also, getting an MD from the Caribbean is useless in terms of how other physicians see your MD. Sure, you may avoid the 1 or 2 odd conversations a year to a patient explaining what a DO is (You can always just get your coat to read "Dr. X Y" instead of "X Y, DO"), but aside from that, all physicians will see you went to a Caribbean school when you apply to a job (or anyone Googling you to be honest). It doesn't give you an advantage over a DO, so it can't be a "pro."
Wildly inaccurate? Do you have any sources to any of your claims or you'll just state that my claims are wrong? Unfortunately, all the links on the website are down, but I've seen those lists and there are not 900+ matches on it. Also, how do you lose 5% and then say you lose 15%?This is wildly inaccurate, and the reason why I spend so much time posting on these boards. This is exactly what I was referring to earlier by grouping all Caribbean schools together. The stats and percentages that follow are for SGU, but I think they're similar for the other Big 4 schools (SGU, Ross, Saba, AUC).
SGU's actual attrition rate is complicated. If a student fails a midterm, they are given the option to "decel" the course, which basically means they drop it and retake it the following term with following class. They become a part of that graduating class. Since we are on rolling admissions with 2 classes, we are losing and gaining students every term. The January class, however, is usually much smaller, a few hundred students, and the August class is large, around 900 students. So consider a January starting class that loses 5% of their 300 students, but gains 5% from the previous class of 900. You can see how this becomes difficult to suss out.
None of that really matters, though, because whoever posted that pulled those numbers out of thin air and things asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. We lose a lot of students, they're not wrong about that. It's more like 15% but it doesn't matter, it's still a lot. Our residency placement rate is more like 90%, and that does matter a lot. Yes, the Caribbean will basically lock you out of some high-demand specialities like Derm & Optho. But we graduate plenty of EM, gas, rads, Obs/Gyn, surg, etc. The only people that look down on Caribbean MDs are pre-med students. We all take the same classes and licensing exams. Once you're through basic sciences and working in the trenches alongside other junior doctors, where you went to school just becomes a footnote.
The take home message is that you should exhaust every avenue you have to get into a US school, be it MD or DO. If you've done that a few times, and you're starting to eat into your 30's, and you're positive nothing else is going to fulfill you as a person but becoming a physician, there are ways to make it work. It's a messy solution, but it can be done successfully.
A more succinct way to address this would probably just have been a link to our residency placements:
SGU Residency Appointments By Year
Seriously, just please go to the Caribbean.I don't think I claimed that. If I have, I will withdraw my statement right away.
I have stated that the initial behind your name doesn't matter, it is the quality of your health care delivery that matters.
Lets keep the tone of the conversation civil and classy okay?
I appreciate @bedevilled ben very much for taking his/ her time to address all of my questions.
Wildly inaccurate? Do you have any sources to any of your claims or you'll just state that my claims are wrong? Unfortunately, all the links on the website are down, but I've seen those lists and there are not 900+ matches on it. Also, how do you lose 5% and then say you lose 15%?
Snide remarks aren't necessary, if you have issues with what I said, simply address them directly. I didn't realize that I needed to quantify the word "plenty". Firstly, I don't believe I ever said that Obs/Gyn wasn't primary care, the words "primary care" don't even show up in my post. Primary care refers to those specialities that see a patient for chronic health needs and if necessary, refer them to a specialist. There are not, to my knowledge, any rigid standards to classify a speciality as primary care or not, though FP, general IM, and peds are pretty universally accepted as primary care. Obs/gyn, IM, and some others can be either primary or secondary care. An obs/gyn that specializies in L&D, or a hospitalist for example, would not be considered primary care. Considering that a non-trivial percentage of those doing IM continue on to subspecialize, I think its a fair estimate so say that 35-40% of SGU graduates are non-primary care. I would call this "plenty".What the hell "plenty" anyway? The 17% that's not in primary care or transitional year (using the pie chart)? And how do you not know OB/Gyn is primary care?
On this we agree. I mentioned the proverbial pecking order above, and you'll see I placed Caribbean MDs squarely at the bottom. There is no question that we are at a disadvantage. The issue arises when all Caribbean schools are lumped together, because there are many that do have the abysmal statistics you posted initially and others that do not. It is always best to complete your training in the US. If that option isn't feasible, going to the Caribbean is not the death sentence that SDN so often makes it out to be. It is riskier, and the penalties for failure are severe, which is why I always encourage people to exhaust all possible means of getting into a USMD/DO program before considering the Caribbean.While I'm ready to accept that once your training is over everyone is pretty much treated equivalently (which I have said so myself), there is absolutely no doubt that Caribbean graduates are the bottom choice for residency and fellowship; that is what the quote was about. The OP was also referring to having an "MD" as an advantage of the Caribbean, which it is not aside from maybe avoiding a conversation or two about "what's a DO?"