Brigham vs MGH Anesthesiology

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checkov

checkov

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Hey all, I'm an MS-4 who is going into anesthesiology and hoping to settle down in the Boston area for residency. I've interviewed at both of these places and thought both were great, but was hoping for some insider advice on which program to choose.

My impression of the Brigham was that it was particularly strong at cardiac anesthesia and OB anesthesia, prepared residents well for private practice, and had a collegial, family-friendly atmosphere.

My impression of MGH was that it was particularly strong at research, had a ton of complex trauma and general cases, and had a hard-working to malignant atmosphere (per some residents and Scutwork.com).

I'd be thankful for any pointers / tips / guidance on how to choose between the two.
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checkov said:
Hey all, I'm an MS-4 who is going into anesthesiology and hoping to settle down in the Boston area for residency. I've interviewed at both of these places and thought both were great, but was hoping for some insider advice on which program to choose.

My impression of the Brigham was that it was particularly strong at cardiac anesthesia and OB anesthesia, prepared residents well for private practice, and had a collegial, family-friendly atmosphere.

My impression of MGH was that it was particularly strong at research, had a ton of complex trauma and general cases, and had a hard-working to malignant atmosphere (per some residents and Scutwork.com).

I'd be thankful for any pointers / tips / guidance on how to choose between the two.
Click to expand...

Judging by your post you already have your answer.
 
MGH, B&W is a pain to get to on the green line. Traffic around the whole Longwood area sucks too. You could live in Cambridge and easily have a car.

Seriously, if you're choosing between the two, good for you. You can't go wrong at either and end up splitting hairs.
 
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This is the exact feeling I got when I interviewed at both places and it made the choice obvious for me. You will get excellent training at either place so why be unhappy? :)
 
Brigham

For the reasons you mentioned.
 
Just wanted to say thanks for the input -- I appreciate the advice :)
 
I've heard from some attendings who trained at BWH that the program can be surprisingly malignant, usually in a targeted way toward a few residents per year. They said MGH is actually the more 'kinder, gentler Harvard'. Just my 2 cents. From my interviews back in 2003 they both seemed like amazing places to be.
 
powermd said:
I've heard from some attendings who trained at BWH that the program can be surprisingly malignant, usually in a targeted way toward a few residents per year. They said MGH is actually the more 'kinder, gentler Harvard'. Just my 2 cents. From my interviews back in 2003 they both seemed like amazing places to be.
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I don't know what the place was like in '03, but since arriving here in 2007 I think we've been a pretty happy crew (residents and attendings included). Right now a bunch of us are on call on OB having just eaten thanksgiving dinner together and, with the exception of arguing over which place to order dessert from, we've been pretty civil. :laugh:

Anesthesiadoc
(CA-3, BWH)
 
anesthesiadoc said:
I don't know what the place was like in '03, but since arriving here in 2007 I think we've been a pretty happy crew (residents and attendings included). Right now a bunch of us are on call on OB having just eaten thanksgiving dinner together and, with the exception of arguing over which place to order dessert from, we've been pretty civil. :laugh:

Anesthesiadoc
(CA-3, BWH)
Click to expand...

This is what I've heard about BWH...I hear it's an awesome place.

From meeting people on the interview trail ...I've seen that MGH has a lot of FMGs....lot are PhDs,etc from their own country...not sure how much of the norm that is nevertheless. Not sure if that's important in OP's decision making process.
 
I didn't get a malignant feeling at either place. It would be an honor to train at either institution. I do think the Brigham is probably a little more laid-back and MGH is a little more old-school, but that is probably true of each hospital's atmosphere in general. MGH has a long proud history (hello, Ether Dome) and Brigham is the shinier, more modern, glassy and glossy. Both are full of brilliant people who will teach you plenty. Can't go wrong.
 
MGH is not malignant. It has a reputation for being malignant and a marketing problem during the interview season which in the past has done little to counteract its pre-existing reputation. At BWH they exude an image of being nice, congenial and normal when you interview there, while at MGH there are a couple of weird interviewers and somehow they just don't get the "nice" point across.

MGH has normal residents and, more importantly, very normal attendings, congenial surgeons (except two or three of the CT surgeons) and fairly normal resident work hours (I work about 55-60 hrs a week on average on most OR rotations, assuming arriving to work around 6:30am and leaving around 5:30pm). It's the best kept secret in Boston.

I've never regretted my choice and I think if you put both at the top of your list and let the Match decide for you, you would still end up with very similar experiences at both places.
 
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I did a month of OB anesthesia at Brigham last year as a visiting resident and was very impressed with the place. Wish I could've spent more time there. The residents all seemed happy with the program. The faculty took teaching seriously too and I thought the didactics were quite good. I got the feeling that the residents worked relatively long hours during their OR months. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

My 1/36th of $.02 ...
 
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I graduated for Brigham a few years ago. Both are great places. While I was there I thought our residents at Brigham were more "normal" for whatever that means, and we had more fun outside of work together. Both places work hard. From working with MGH residents at Children's and on OB at Brigham I got the feeling Brigham did more regional type stuff, IE placing epidurals in the main OR earlier as CA-1s ect, doing nerve blocks early in residency. The joke in residency was Mass GENERAL Hospital for anesthesia. Both groups seemed very well trained though, I don't think you could go wrong with either.

There were a few residents in each class that got "picked" on by the attendings, but usually they deserved the "attention" in my opinion.
 
From what I recall, the kinder, gentler Harvard was BID. My knowledge of the programs is likely somewhat dated, but I worked in a lab at B&W in the mid-90s between undergrad and med school and one of my attendings at Mayo had done a regional fellowship at B&W. She was a little hard core, but said she enjoyed her time in Boston. A classmate from med school is a Professor at MGH and seems to be enjoying himself, from what I recall. MGH is big into research in a way most other programs aren't, or at least it has been traditionally.

As has been echoed above, you won't go wrong with any of the Harvard programs. Pick whichever one you feel is the best fit. Are people of the opinion that BID is "Harvard-light?"

PMMD
 
pmichaelmd said:
From what I recall, the kinder, gentler Harvard was BID. My knowledge of the programs is likely somewhat dated, but I worked in a lab at B&W in the mid-90s between undergrad and med school and one of my attendings at Mayo had done a regional fellowship at B&W. She was a little hard core, but said she enjoyed her time in Boston. A classmate from med school is a Professor at MGH and seems to be enjoying himself, from what I recall. MGH is big into research in a way most other programs aren't, or at least it has been traditionally.

As has been echoed above, you won't go wrong with any of the Harvard programs. Pick whichever one you feel is the best fit. Are people of the opinion that BID is "Harvard-light?"

PMMD
Click to expand...
Typically from what I've seen/heard....in terms of Harvards: Brigham and MGH
 
pmichaelmd said:
From what I recall, the kinder, gentler Harvard was BID. My knowledge of the programs is likely somewhat dated, but I worked in a lab at B&W in the mid-90s between undergrad and med school and one of my attendings at Mayo had done a regional fellowship at B&W. She was a little hard core, but said she enjoyed her time in Boston. A classmate from med school is a Professor at MGH and seems to be enjoying himself, from what I recall. MGH is big into research in a way most other programs aren't, or at least it has been traditionally.

As has been echoed above, you won't go wrong with any of the Harvard programs. Pick whichever one you feel is the best fit. Are people of the opinion that BID is "Harvard-light?"

PMMD
Click to expand...

This is what I heard on the interview trail last year... that BID is "Harvard with a heart". People seemed very relaxed at BID and it seemed like an extremely positive learning environment that provides a great education. If you look at where the programs are ranked each year on applicants residency match lists I think you'll find that many choose BID over BWH/MGH due to this... but I seriously don't think you can go wrong with any of these places...

2009: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=608384&highlight=2009+top+ranked+anesthesia

2008: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=503677&highlight=top+ranked+anesthesia
 
checkov said:
Hey all, I'm an MS-4 who is going into anesthesiology and hoping to settle down in the Boston area for residency. I've interviewed at both of these places and thought both were great, but was hoping for some insider advice on which program to choose.

My impression of the Brigham was that it was particularly strong at cardiac anesthesia and OB anesthesia, prepared residents well for private practice, and had a collegial, family-friendly atmosphere.

My impression of MGH was that it was particularly strong at research, had a ton of complex trauma and general cases, and had a hard-working to malignant atmosphere (per some residents and Scutwork.com).

I'd be thankful for any pointers / tips / guidance on how to choose between the two.
Click to expand...

I interviewed at both of these programs, and I wish I would've done away rotations at the two programs. Boston is an awesome city from what I could tell. To sum up both programs, they're simply excellent. I think the training the residents have at the Harvard programs are second to none. The attendings you'd work with are superb at what they do. Look at all the OB you can do at Brigham and the critically ill patients you will treat at MGH. Clearly, you couldn't go wrong with either program. If you match at either program, I envy you. Good luck.
 
So why does MGH only have a 2 year accreditation versus the normal 5 year duration....
 
Hey, MGH resident here. The program is excellent. I have friends at Brigham. That program is excellent. BID is great, I have a couple friends there who are really happy as well.

I don't know what the purpose of spreading misinformation on here is, but MGH, BWH, and BID all have 4 yr accreds. I hope people will look to official sites such as FREIDA rather than random internet postings.

There are some definite "style" differences to the programs- some are real and some are stereotypes passed along from back in the day. As said before, you can't go wrong with any of these programs. I chose MGH because of the greater degree of independence I perceived, the people I interviewed with back then, the fellowship I wanted to pursue, and (hate to admit it) but also the "classic Harvard hospital" name... this obviously does not make it a better hospital, but the name is why ABC did the mini-series here this year, and what seems to get the most recognition as I've been contacting people. By the way- the last reason should be pretty much near last on your priority list when deciding a place to go. Although many times the name is connected to things like fellowship opportunities, variety of cases, jobs after grad.. just look at these separately -- I was just being honest about what had influenced me, not advocating you to do the same.

Anyway don't envy the stress of going through the match at all, but at least you eat like royalty for a few months.. good luck!:thumbup:
 
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AVP said:
"I don't know what the purpose of spreading misinformation on here is, but MGH, BWH, and BID all have 4 yr accreds. I hope people will look to official sites such as FREIDA rather than random internet postings."




I think there is some misunderstanding here. The training length accreditation for all programs is four years if they have a PGY-1 included or three years if they only have advanced positions. This will be the same for any program you look up on FREIDA.

The key difference is how long the cycle length for the next ACGME site visit is. The longest cycle is 5 years (this implies that there were no or little issues at the preceding site visit and the ACGME/RRC does not think it is necessary to swing by earlier). If there were issues during the last visit the cycle length is shorter; the next step down the ladder is probation with a really short cycle...

For applicants it is key to know what the current cycle length is (BWH and BID 5 years, MGH 3 years) and to inquire about the reasons for a shorter cycle on the day of their interview. This is a legitimate question no matter where you interview and shows that you have done your homework. Keep in mind that there are multiple reasons for a shorter cycle which may or may not influence your decision making.

Cycle length can be viewed at the ACGME webpage under "Reports", "list of programs by specialty" and "details" of the accredited program:

http://www.acgme.org/adspublic/
Click to expand...
 
Given that residency interview season is winding down, I was wondering if anyone else had any additional insight on how to pick between The Brigham or MGH.

I'll be doing second looks at both institutions soon, but am quite curious if anyone had a 'gut feeling' or other strong reasons that led them to choose one institution over the other. Thanks in advance, and best wishes to all on the interview trail!
 
You're the one ranking the programs, so why don't you go by YOUR gut feeling? I'm sure both programs provide the means to train you well, just like 95% of the other programs in the US... the key is the hard work that YOU put into your education the next four years.
 
i trained at MGH... both programs are solid programs and will generate solid practitioners.... there are a few more FMGs at MGH due to its research relationships (primarily w/ germany and japan) --- however, these are NOT your typical FMGs (the typical MGH anesthesia FMG is a FULLY-trained anesthesiologist in their respective country and usually is already an associate or higher level professor in their respective country - which means: they know their stuff)

MGH cuts the umbilical cord sooner --- i was doing bigger, more complicated cases earlier in my training with less supervision... if you have self-confidence issues then MGH may not be the right place for you...

Also, when i did one of my OB rotations at the Brigham (which I enjoyed) I was suprised at the weird dichotomy: the attendings didn't supervise epidural placements (which i hope has changed for billing/coding/fraud reasons), yet they baby-sat the residents for any General Anesthesia case... in fact, i distinctly remember doing IVF (which is basically a MAC w/ some propofol on healthy 35 year old women) as a CA-3 at the Brigham, and the attendings basically dictated every aspect of anesthesia care (how much versed pre-procedure, how much propofol during the case, etc...)... hopefully that has changed as well....

some people confuse tough, autonomy and strong personalities with malignancy
some people confuse touchy-feely, less independence and a lot of hand-holding with a benign program...

oh well... my 2 cents...

re: regional.... i also learned u/s guided regional during my treaning early 2000s and had enough interscalene, infra-clavicular, sciatic, fem, iliacus, axillary blocks under my belt to feel comfortable performing those in the real world...

downside at MGH: cardiac sucked when i was there because of the malignant cardiac surgeons - i don't know if that situation has improved, and we only averaged about 1 real cardiac case per day (i don't include EP lab, cath lab as cardiac cases), unless you were on call... that in my opinion is not sufficient to do hearts right out of training without doing a cardiac fellowship...now clearly i could have spent 3 of my elective months doing more cardiac, but who wants to spend 3 months around a bunch of a-hole surgeons? on the flip-side the thoracic surgeons were awesome, and i got a TON of thoracic experience
 
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When I interviewed at MGH residents were getting farmed out to either Lahey Clinic or the VA to get their cardiac numbers.

I did a second look at MGH and did not think there was anything malignant about the place. I did think two of the interviewers were d-bags, but that could have been bad luck.
 
quick Q about the interview day at MGH - laid-back interviews? any potential pimping?
 
residents have been fired from both programs they both have great 'names' dont let any of this 'stop' you, if u survive u will be in for a great life after res :0
 
Tenesma said:
some people confuse tough, autonomy and strong personalities with malignancy
some people confuse touchy-feely, less independence and a lot of hand-holding with a benign program...
Click to expand...

love it
 
My PD has always said... if the Brigham calls, you better answer. What I think he means by that is that the Brigham affords you so many opportunities for the rest of your career that you'd be a fool to turn them down if you had the opportunity to train there. I think MGH would be the same. But MGH has the reputation of bordering on malignant (3 year ACGME accreditations for the past 2 cycles should be a red flag). I have heard that the Brigham is Harvard without all the attitude/fuss/malignancy/pretentiousness. Brigham > MGH.
 
MGH <3
Loved it.
PD & Asst PDs great. New chair awesome. Cheif residents super nice and all residents were fun to talk to... Seems like a great place to work hard at for 3 years. A side bonus is the cool history.
Not malignant. (do you have specific examples of malignancy?)

Good luck ranking and matching :)
 
Beardpapa,

You only have 19 past posts, but from looking at them I can see that there are now multiple times you have brought threads back from the dead to post about negative rumors you have heard about MGH (it being "malignant")... but it appears you aren't a current resident there, and you are only applying right now, and you aren't even considering MGH or BWH on your rank list? I'm just curious why you are so into posting strong feelings about MGH and BWH when the threads are old, you aren't answering anyone's pressing questions, and you don't really have inside information to share? If you are seriously considering it but panicking about the intensity of the program, maybe you should talk to some current MGH residents who will be open and straight-forward with you about what the program is actually like?...

I'll be honest, your posts about these rumors made me feel uneasy... but I talked to someone (just yesterday actually) who just finished the program and she assured me that she worked hard cases, learned a lot, had some easier weeks and some more intense weeks, but in general on OR days CRNAs relieve most residents by 5pm (more were hired recently for this), the attendings are supportive and always around but give you a lot of autonomy, the new chair Dr. Wiener-Kronish who just came over from UCSF is super warm and approachable, and the PD is very much into resident education and well-being. She loved her co-residents and couldn't think of anything she thought was "malignant"... She had no reason to lie to me...

Either way... good luck! There are many awesome anesthesia programs. I'm biased (and hopeful) at this point... but I really believe MGH is an amazing program and not an opportunity to pass up. (I'll post an update in 3 years :) )
 
I went to MGH and it was not malignant, in fact both residents, attendings and surgeons are generally very friendly. There is nowadays more handholding than you think (good or bad depending on who you are), but no more nor less than at any other residency.

Excellent rotations: Thoracic (but a lot of work), vascular (but a lot of work), neurosurgery, orthopedics, OB (relaxed), pediatrics (you get much more acuity than as a resident rotating outside at Children's), regional (range of ultrasound guided interscalene, infraclavicular, TAP, paravertebral, popliteal/sciatic, femoral).

Bad rotations: Cardiac (totally dysfunctional, but I got about 25-30 pump cases in 2 months which is more than the ACGME requirements), SICU (completely non-educational, scutty, oversupervised and uncaring since Bigatello no longer runs the SICU). Acute pain (waste of 3 MDs, rounding on epidurals 24 hours a day for a whole month).

All residencies have their good points and their bad points. We did electives at the VA or Lahey to do more cardiac in a less dysfunctional environment but to be honest if you did only your requisite 2 months of cardiac at MGH you would meet your ACGME requirements. I have no regrets going there, my regional/OB/peds training were excellent and I highly recommend going there.
 
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I am a few years out from MGH... very happy w/ my training though - i did some bad-ass cases - incl. crazy cool pedi cases (which at most other institutions would have been stolen by fellows) such as an 18mo old liver transplant, a 5yr old coarctation repair, etc...

It sounds like Edelweiss is a more recent grad - and I would agree w/ everything edelweiss mentioned, except it is sad to hear about SICU and pain... When i did my training at MGH, the SICU was an awesome (but tough experience) - it is sad to hear it has become non-educational/over-supervised... i find that that typically happens based on the type of fellow you have - i was fortunate that i had very confident fellows who allowed the residents to run the show, and would only step in when necessary...

there has been and always will be a B&W vs MGH mentality in anesthesia in Boston... but outside of Massachusetts, nobody cares about that rivalry, and MGH has far better name recognition in the rest of the country/world...
 
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They're both good. MGH people think they have a bigger name, BWH people think the people are nicer. Visit each and choose which is right for you
 
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it comes down to where you feel more comfortable... personally i don't mind the perception that MGH is "tough"...
 
AVP said:
Hey, MGH resident here. The program is excellent. I have friends at Brigham. That program is excellent. BID is great, I have a couple friends there who are really happy as well.

I don't know what the purpose of spreading misinformation on here is, but MGH, BWH, and BID all have 4 yr accreds. I hope people will look to official sites such as FREIDA rather than random internet postings.
Click to expand...

This seems to be confusing accreditation with ACGME cycle length:

MGH:
Last Site Visit Date: October 22, 2009
Cycle Length: 3 years
Approximate Date of Next Site Visit: April 1, 2013

BWH
Last Site Visit Date: August 17, 2011
Cycle Length: 2 years
Approximate Date of Next Site Visit: October 1, 2013

BU
Last Site Visit Date: November 17, 2009
Cycle Length: 5 years
Approximate Date of Next Site Visit: April 1, 2015

BID
Last Site Visit Date: October 10, 2006
Cycle Length: 5 years
Scheduled Date of Next Site Visit: May 9, 2012

StE's
Last Site Visit Date: November 16, 2010
Cycle Length: 4 years
Approximate Date of Next Site Visit: April 1, 2015
Approximate Date of Next Site Visit: April 1, 2013


Now the review cycles of both the BWH and MGH added together equals that of BU OR BID. I understand the ACGME review is not the only determination of quality of a residency program but they are an objective body so it does say something about the program. Why are the cycles for these two programs so low???
 
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DerekJeter said:
Why are the cycles for these two programs so low???
Click to expand...

The MGH PD said that they were dinged for "Service > Education" burden on the residents, something they were working to fix. In other words, residents are being overworked. Some changes already put into place were hiring a couple more CRNAs, eliminating some call shifts, and changing an in-house call to a home call on one of the rotations. However, he admitted that the problem is still not fixed in his opinion.

And yeah, I really would like to know why BWH is only 2 yrs, I somehow forgot to ask that question...anyone know?
 
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Going around the forum to debunk any myths about MGH. Recent grad. There is no service > education problems at MGH. You will ALWAYS, without fail, get out by 5pm in the main OR. We have lectures/board reviews 3-4 days per week. And the PD's are intense about education. Our PD just won best PD award in the country from the ACGME. MGH breeds anesthesiologists that are at the top of their game, are prepared for any scenario, and with a name that can secure you any job. I have first hand experience with this. Not to speak poorly about Brigham but I rotated through Brigham as a resident (a lot of the Boston hospitals have inter-program rotations). I felt that we were more efficient and better-trained. Brigham people are definitely nice, don't get me wrong. But if I was undergoing anesthesia, when it comes to knowledge and skill, I'd rather have a lion than a lamb. Choose MGH and never look back.
 
harvardanesthesia said:
Going around the forum to debunk any myths about MGH. Recent grad. There is no service > education problems at MGH. You will ALWAYS, without fail, get out by 5pm in the main OR. We have lectures/board reviews 3-4 days per week. And the PD's are intense about education. Our PD just won best PD award in the country from the ACGME. MGH breeds anesthesiologists that are at the top of their game, are prepared for any scenario, and with a name that can secure you any job. I have first hand experience with this. Not to speak poorly about Brigham but I rotated through Brigham as a resident (a lot of the Boston hospitals have inter-program rotations). I felt that we were more efficient and better-trained. Brigham people are definitely nice, don't get me wrong. But if I was undergoing anesthesia, when it comes to knowledge and skill, I'd rather have a lion than a lamb. Choose MGH and never look back.
Click to expand...
What kind of lions always need to be home by 5 pm?
 
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Baller MD said:
What's wrong with being home by 5pm? Better than staying late, no?
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It depends. It's not worth staying late for cases that are CRNA-level but, with what I know now, I would stay even till midnight in a challenging case. What you should ask yourself is where will you learn more? If you are doing a very comfortable (for you) case, maybe you'd learn more from cracking a book at home. If what you are doing is pushing your limits, then staying late is best.

Wherever you are, at home or at work, you should try pushing your boundaries. Even here, on this forum.

Don't forget: you might have only one life to live, but you also have only one residency to shape you into the badass attending we all want to be.
 
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Baller MD said:
What's wrong with being home by 5pm? Better than staying late, no?
Click to expand...
Many of the best cases I've done as a resident and even now have come after hours. This is when you get those trainwrecks and don't have the backup help and full nursing crew during the day. Things change when it's all on you. It's annoying hearing people from "Man's Greatest Hospital" boast about how superior their training is while at the same time state their program is cush. Please. They don't teach anesthesia different there, they read the same stupid books, and the cases done there can be found at most major medical centers in this country. I did residency in Boston and worked with attendings who trained at all the Harvard programs and other big names, there was nothing extraordinary about MGH at all. Just like grads of any other program, some were great/good/bad/embarrassingly bad, most were average. For the vast majority of programs out there, the quality of training comes down to the individual. In my current group, a big name on your CV will help you, but our experience has taught us that this does not correlate with level of skill and you'll be replaced if you can't cut it.
 
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This is a riveting thread. But seriously, how many harvard vs harvard threads does there need to be?
 
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Dude, all new accreditation cycles are 10 years, they don't do 1-5 years anymore
 
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What kind of step 1 scores does one need to match into MGH for an anesthesia residency? Thanks for your insight, just trying to get a sense of what's in my reach
 
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There arent enough 260's around to fill all the top programs with 260's. I dont doubt that they have their fair share though.
 
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The first born child thing isn't necessarily a joke. It might also be true to say that it could cost you your marriage.
 
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