BS/MD Dismissal

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This is why most BS/MD programs are stupid. Please explain to me how a 17 year old kid could know he wants to go into medicine. Please I'm dying to hear it.

I volunteered at a hospital for 500 hours in high school and shadowed about 200 hours. At that point, I was pretty confident in my choice to pursue medicine, though I will admit that my year of scribing in college was much more insightful than shadowing or volunteering ever were (this extra experience didn't change my mind any, just strengthened my resolve). But I guess my point is that, by age 17, I had a not insignificant exposure to the medical field, and I think I could have been a viable candidate for a BS/MD program if I had been confident enough to apply. I'm glad I didn't do a BS/MD program, since I've gained a lot of maturity and improved my work ethic by going through the traditional pre-med route. I also think that I'm a much stronger candidate for med school now than 17 year old me would have been. But the combined program would have saved me a lot of stress, so I can certainly see why it would have been beneficial.

Edit: I should add that neither of my parents are physicians nor were they even initially encouraging of my plans to pursue medicine. An early interest in being a physician is not always parentally driven.

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This is why most BS/MD programs are stupid. Please explain to me how a 17 year old kid could know he wants to go into medicine. Please I'm dying to hear it.

so you clearly got rejected from one. they're 17, if they get into a program and don't like it, they have plenty of time to find something they do like.... It's not like your life is over and you're forever doomed.

I also really don't think there's that much difference in maturity or knowing your career path between a 17 yr old and a 21 yr old. The only major difference is beer, which I don't think is too life-changing or maturity granting.
 
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Simple. Their parents want them and thus force them to do it. College ECs, volunteering, and the MCAT are for chumps.

a majority require you to get a certain score on MCAT, I only know of 2 that don't and combined they have like 15 spots..

Not to mention that since BS/MDs are competitive, the whole "college EC and volunteering " aspect is just translated ahead a few years, as nearly all of the candidates have that. Hell a lot of them even have research.
 
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so you clearly got rejected from one. they're 17, if they get into a program and don't like it, they have plenty of time to find something they do like.... It's not like your life is over and you're forever doomed.

I also really don't think there's that much difference in maturity or knowing your career path between a 17 yr old and a 21 yr old. The only major difference is beer, which I don't think is too life-changing or maturity granting.
:rolleyes:
 
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a majority require you to get a certain score on MCAT, I only know of 2 that don't and combined they have like 15 spots..

Not to mention that since BS/MDs are competitive, the whole "college EC and volunteering " aspect is just translated ahead a few years, as nearly all of the candidates have that. Hell a lot of them even have research.
Brown doesn't, Northwestern doesn't, there are more that don't. You're limited as far as what you can experience as a high schooler.
 

I really don't. If someone is 25, yeah I'd say there's a big difference, but I don't look at undergrad as this "crucible for making people mature" that everyone talks about. If it was, then the avg medical student wouldn't be a social *****.
 
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Brown doesn't, Northwestern doesn't, there are more that don't. You're limited as far as what you can experience as a high schooler.

yeah but the high schoolers busting their balls are going to be in some pretty serious stuff. I know numerous people with publications during HS with big name hospitals. I personally didn't and most of my accolades that I applied with, were related to sports but I think people would be surprised by the resumes of some of these people applying to programs.
 
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yeah but the high schoolers busting their balls are going to be in some pretty serious stuff. I know numerous people with publications during HS with big name hospitals. I personally didn't and most of my accolades that I applied with, were related to sports but I think people would be surprised by the resumes of some of these people applying to programs.
Yes, but you also don't get to explore different alternative healthcare (or otherwise) career routes in high school like you get to in college.
 
yeah but the high schoolers busting their balls are going to be in some pretty serious stuff. I know numerous people with publications during HS with big name hospitals. I personally didn't and most of my accolades that I applied with, were related to sports but I think people would be surprised by the resumes of some of these people applying to programs.
If most undergrads don't publish, I wonder how a high school student is able to publish. :rolleyes:

I feel like top BS/MD programs select for people from priveledged backgrounds who really good at gaming the system moreso than trad. MD, and probably have savvy parents who help them along too, but that's just my hunch.

At that age (16-17?), I don't think I would have had the appreciation I do now for volunteering, research, and shadowing, so I'm not entirely sure if kids are fully aware of what's going on either.

But I'm just going off on a tangent.
 
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If most undergrads don't publish, I wonder how a high school student is able to publish. :rolleyes:

I feel like top BS/MD programs select for people from priveledged backgrounds who really good at gaming the system moreso than trad. MD, and probably have savvy parents who help them along too, but that's just my hunch.

At that age (16-17?), I don't think I would have had the appreciation I do now for volunteering, research, and shadowing, so I'm not entirely sure if kids are fully aware of what's going on either.
Well there are books on how to do it apparently:
upload_2014-12-10_16-56-27.jpeg
upload_2014-12-10_16-56-53.jpeg
upload_2014-12-10_16-57-51.jpeg


As if medical schools need even more entitled narcissists.
 
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This is why most BS/MD programs are stupid. Please explain to me how a 17 year old kid could know he wants to go into medicine. Please I'm dying to hear it.

There are certainly plenty of college freshmen who are about that age who get and stay on pre-med track.
 
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There are certainly plenty of college freshmen who are about that age who get and stay on pre-med track.
Except the premed track actually requires some level of dedication, stamina and endurance unlike a BS/MD track.
 
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The left pic makes me very glad I had hands-off parenting...
According to the Look Inside feature for that book, it has students start planning in middle school.
 
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Btw my university has a high school associated with it, where starting from year 10 all students take college classes only to fulfill their high school graduation requirements. Some even manage to graduate with a BS degree at the same time as they get their high school diploma (age 18-19). Some are also involved with research. I'm not even touching on things such as dual enrollment. The high school is considered public and free; and they make every effort to ensure that not only privileged kids are able to attend it.

Just because someone else is taking a path that is different from the one traveled by you, it does not mean that it won't work for them. There is no ideal way for everyone to get into medicine.
 
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Well, I still have hope for being re-admitted. I have a feeling if I was dismissed I would've gotten an e-mail the same day saying my dismissal was upheld.

Uh - It doesn't usually work that way. People like to tell you good news sooner rather than later, and distance themselves from the bad news with time and medium (snail mail).

OP - Imagine how that appeals discussion must have gone. Which of your professors would have been in that meeting arguing passionately that you should be reinstated? Which of those professors knew you well enough to convince anyone that you're shy, not aloof, and that you'd be able to turn that around and fix the problem if given a second chance.

Relationships really matter. And because you avoided developing some important ones, you are now suffering some pretty severe consequences. Medicine is not necessarily over for you. But you've got one foot in a hole and will need to dig yourself out.

Regardless of the committee's decision, I'd suggest you go to your [former] adviser and every other 'honcho' in the program and apologize in person. Own your failure and vow to do better. It will be hard. But it's exactly what you need to do to redeem yourself -- in their eyes and your own. Ya gotta pay this piper.
 
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If most undergrads don't publish, I wonder how a high school student is able to publish. :rolleyes:

I, too, know high schoolers who were able to publish. I went to a good high school that sent 1-2 people to the International Science Fair each year, a couple of those people were doing research through a relatively local university, and one of the students was a brilliant kid who graduated high school at 15 or something. It's not at all common, but enough focused hard work and some luck plays a big part.

This is why most BS/MD programs are stupid. Please explain to me how a 17 year old kid could know he wants to go into medicine. Please I'm dying to hear it.
Simple. Their parents want them and thus force them to do it. College ECs, volunteering, and the MCAT are for chumps.

FWIW, I was planning on medicine since before high school, though at that point I certainly didn't know anything more than "I want to be a doctor." Then I had something like 600 hours of clinical volunteering and shadowing before undergrad, then stuck through pre-med from day 1 to finish. And no, my parents weren't pushing me to do this at all. No one in my family is in any kind of medical field and this was entirely my own doing. If I had been offered the BS/MD program at my school, I would have taken it in a heartbeat...it's not binding, no MCAT, just keep a 3.75 and do research, volunteering, and shadowing. And the process to get into our program is rigorous--they need substantial clinical exposure, volunteering, be at the top of their class, and most have solid research experience. Plus an interview just like the med school applicants get.

These programs don't bind your life to pre-med, you can drop out of the program, and many people do. I think it's a little dismissive to say a 17 year old doesn't know they want to do medicine. Chances are they think they have the interest in medicine and the start of an idea of what it's about and if it ends up being something that doesn't appeal to them or doesn't work out, so be it. Leave the program and figure something else out. No more harm than coming into college completely undecided and taking a bunch of random classes like so many people do at my school. It's not like something magical happens between the ages of 17 and 20 that makes one totally aware and sure that they want to do medicine. *points at pre-meds who still have idealistic/glorified views of medicine or go into medicine for the wrong reasons*
 
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Except the premed track actually requires some level of dedication, stamina and endurance unlike a BS/MD track.

huh? I don't understand. it's not like you're automatically a doctor once you get into a bs/md. the 8 year programs it's like the exact same thing as having a normal undergrad experience except you're guaranteed a seat if you meet certain conditions. you make it sound like it's the easy way out, when the bs/mds do all the same stuff trads do, and since most bs/md programs are competitive, the students have pretty good stats and resumes coming out of HS...
 
I went through a bs/md program and of the 8 of us that were selected, 4 people couldn't handle keeping up with the requirements or figured out medicine wasn't for them and just left the program.
 
Most of BS/MD program requirements are laughable (~3.3 GPA, no MCAT). I can't imagine anybody not being able to handle it :laugh: IMO such programs create unnecessary unfair advantage because evaluating high school performance is different from evaluating college performance; high school in this country is laughably easy compared to college.
 
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Most of BS/MD program requirements are laughable (~3.3 GPA, no MCAT). I can't imagine anybody not being able to handle it :laugh: IMO such programs create unnecessary unfair advantage because evaluating high school performance is different from evaluating college performance; high school in this country is laughably easy compared to college.

My program would only allow you to get below a 3.5 GPA in a semester once. Even if your cumulative GPA was 3.8 and your semester GPA dipped below 3.5 again, you were out. We also had a minimum mcat score, but it wasn't to competitive of a score.

I agree that high school was really easy, but it also made it harder to stand out from all the other applicants in the state who had a 4.0 high school GPA and extracurriculars that you would expect from someone at the top of their class.
 
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I, too, know high schoolers who were able to publish. I went to a good high school that sent 1-2 people to the International Science Fair each year, a couple of those people were doing research through a relatively local university, and one of the students was a brilliant kid who graduated high school at 15 or something. It's not at all common, but enough focused hard work and some luck plays a big part.
I agree, some high schoolers are probably competent enough to help with research, but I'd imagine that in most cases, they received the position because of connections, not aptitude (I don't see why a PI would take a high schooler over an undergrad unless the high schooler was a verifiable genius ;) ).
 
I agree, some high schoolers are probably competent enough to help with research, but I'd imagine that in most cases, they received the position because of connections, not aptitude (I don't see why a PI would take a high schooler over an undergrad unless the high schooler was a verifiable genius ;) ).

I'd also say that many undergrads receive their position because of connections. I got into my lab because my friend told me there was an opening in her lab.

College students with high aptitude were most likely high schoolers with high aptitude. And the high schoolers I know who did research actually came up with their own hypothesis driven projects, and got help from professors at the university for materials and guidance. You don't have to be a genius, these people just had a passion for research and pursued it. The same way an undergrad emails around looking for a position, these high schoolers email around and look for someone who can help them.
 
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I came across this note hanged in the chemistry department:
35ncylf.jpg


I'll repeat that the types of students who get admitted into BS/MD or even "high school research" are not your ordinary students; but highly driven individuals who completed beyond your typical high school coursework. Dare I say it but most of them don't just come out of your "typical" high school.
 
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I agree, some high schoolers are probably competent enough to help with research, but I'd imagine that in most cases, they received the position because of connections, not aptitude (I don't see why a PI would take a high schooler over an undergrad unless the high schooler was a verifiable genius ;) ).

dude it's undergrad research. you're there because you can breathe and manage to not droll on whatever you're looking at. it's not rocket science. please don't tell me it's about aptitude when you can randomly email people and be like " hey can I work in your lab?" " yeah sure" <- yeah totally about aptitude. newsflash: undergrad research isn't important. like at all. it's not some battle royale to see who can analyze this arbitrary useless protein found only in clams of the south china sea or how this protein affects the efficiency of their ox-phos system. a high school junior or senior is just as useless as a college sophomore for actually getting anything done in a lab.
 
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I think it's ridiculous for you to get thrown out just cause you don't meet with a few advisers. Especially in your first semester.

On the other hand, if there weren't many requirements and this really was just one requirement then I think you should have done so. So I'm a little bit confused in both directions.

They should cut you some slack imo. You're a freshman and it takes a while to adjust into stuff. You have to learn a whole set of skills in college and no two people are the same.
 
dude it's undergrad research. you're there because you can breathe and manage to not droll on whatever you're looking at. it's not rocket science. please don't tell me it's about aptitude when you can randomly email people and be like " hey can I work in your lab?" " yeah sure" <- yeah totally about aptitude. newsflash: undergrad research isn't important. like at all. it's not some battle royale to see who can analyze this arbitrary useless protein found only in clams of the south china sea or how this protein affects the efficiency of their ox-phos system. a high school junior or senior is just as useless as a college sophomore for actually getting anything done in a lab.
On a side note, I resent the implications of your avatar picture.
 
I recently came across this note hanged in the chemistry building:
35ncylf.jpg


I'll repeat that the types of students who get admitted into BS/MD or even "high school research" are not your ordinary students; but highly driven individuals who completed beyond your typical high school coursework. Dare I say it but most of them don't just come out of "typical" high schools.
Interesting pic. :)

They're smart and ambitious, but many of them don't just have "typical" parents, either. ;)
 
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I recently came across this note hanged in the chemistry department:
35ncylf.jpg


I'll repeat that the types of students who get admitted into BS/MD or even "high school research" are not your ordinary students; but highly driven individuals who completed beyond your typical high school coursework. Dare I say it but most of them don't just come out of your "typical" high school.

dude if someone wrote " I'm telling you this" " I am thoughtful, consistent and trustworthy" in an email to me asking to help them out, I'd delete it immediately. it's not impressive to get a 740 on an SATII if you can't even write a two paragraph email without sounding like a complete doofus.
 
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dude if someone wrote " I'm telling you this" " I am thoughtful, consistent and trustworthy" in an email to me asking to help them out, I'd delete it immediately. it's not impressive to get a 740 on an SATII if you can't even write a two paragraph email without sounding like a complete doofus.

You are right; but I'd give them credit for trying to get into research without having an idea (as seen on this picture) about how to actually get involved.

PS I probably too sounded somewhat silly when I was trying to land a research position in a lab for the first time, but we learn things by trying; not by being afraid of sounding/looking silly.


Interesting pic. :)

They're smart and ambitious, but many of them don't just have "typical" parents, either. ;)

That perhaps is my main problem with BS/MD: it leads to little, if any, socioeconomic diversity in medical students.
 
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dude if someone wrote " I'm telling you this" " I am thoughtful, consistent and trustworthy" in an email to me asking to help them out, I'd delete it immediately. it's not impressive to get a 740 on an SATII if you can't even write a two paragraph email without sounding like a complete doofus.
I don't get your point? The writer is showing all he can that he's driven and interested in chemistry. I don't think it's for you to decide that it's not impressive, it's the fact that he's putting all he can out there to get into research, and I'm pretty sure some professors would want this guy/gal in their lab
 
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I don't get your point? The writer is showing all he can that he's driven and interested in chemistry. I don't think it's for you to decide that it's not impressive, it's the fact that he's putting all he can out there to get into research, and I'm pretty sure some professors would want this guy/gal in their lab

it's just incredibly awkwardly written. it's weird to write about your character. it's weird to say " I'm telling you this because," instead of doing that, just tell them. It's like if you were writing an english paper and said " I bring up this passage to show XYZ" vs " this passage highlights XYZ"
 
I got a tiny violin for you
It's just inaccurate. That's all. And with all the jokes you see in the Internet about "#ThingsHurtMoreThanDarrenWilson" to stuff like this, it just contributes to the stereotypes. That's all.
 
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it's just incredibly awkwardly written. it's weird to write about your character. it's weird to say " I'm telling you this because," instead of doing that, just tell them. It's like if you were writing an english paper and said " I bring up this passage to show XYZ" vs " this passage highlights XYZ"
I guess yeah you're right, but is it really that big a deal? I mean maybe when he was writing that he was thinking, "I wonder if the reader will ask himself why he's writing this?". Yeah it's awkward to post it but it's not a deal breaker.
 
OP, are you there? We're curious to hear how it turned out for you.

To contribute to the thread hijacking, many universities and research centers have internship programs for nearby high schools. I participated in one. There was a very extensive application process that lasted about 6 months if I remember correctly. You had to write a bunch of essays, get letters of recommendation from teachers, submit your transcripts, and go to formal interviews.

On another side note, I'd absolutely be interested in that kid who posted the letter. It might be awkwardly written but the kid is 15 or 16 years old for Pete's sake, and it's great that s/he's taking the initiative to seek out research opportunities. Initiative takes you far in this world, and this kid is demonstrating that early. That is to be commended, not derided.
 
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It's just inaccurate. That's all. And with all the jokes you see in the Internet about "#ThingsHurtMoreThanDarrenWilson" to stuff like this, it just contributes to the stereotypes. That's all.

stereotypes are real and exist for a reason- because they are right more often than they are wrong. get the idealist bull outta here

Why do asian parents have the stereotype of emphasizing the importance of academic performance to their kids? Probably because most of them do that. OH THE HORROR
 
stereotypes are real and exist for a reason- because they are right more often than they are wrong. get the idealist bull outta here

Why do asian parents have the stereotype of emphasizing the importance of academic performance to their kids? Probably because most of them do that. OH THE HORROR
I'm not even going to bother telling you how dumb that argument is
 
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Lol, I quoted the wrong post...
I'd also say that many undergrads receive their position because of connections. I got into my lab because my friend told me there was an opening in her lab.

College students with high aptitude were most likely high schoolers with high aptitude. And the high schoolers I know who did research actually came up with their own hypothesis driven projects, and got help from professors at the university for materials and guidance. You don't have to be a genius, these people just had a passion for research and pursued it. The same way an undergrad emails around looking for a position, these high schoolers email around and look for someone who can help them.
From my admittedly limited experience, the high schoolers got into my PI's lab on connections, cleaned glassware and did rudimentary data work (like entering values in Excel!). One was pressured into it by his physician mother, though I don't know if this is the same for other biomed basic/clinical research.

What one can do can vary significantly by field - maybe one can perform stimulating research in ecology or geology too, but it's harder to do so in pharmacology or neurobiology. In the lab I work at, I can't fathom a high school student testing their own hypothesis or contributing in an academically meaningful way in the lab unless they had loaded down in college courses in high school beyond AP Chem/Calc w/e. When people say "publish" in this thread, I'm assuming they don't mean 3rd or 4th author, which to my understanding may just be investing time in the project with only a working knowledge of it.
 
Lol, I quoted the wrong post...

From my admittedly limited experience, the high schoolers got into my PI's lab on connections, cleaned glassware and did rudimentary data work (like entering values in Excel!). One was pressured into it by his physician mother, though I don't know if this is the same for other biomed basic/clinical research. attachFull187672

What one can do can vary significantly by field - maybe one can perform stimulating research in ecology or geology too, but it's harder to do so in pharmacology or neurobiology. In the lab I work at, I can't fathom a high school student testing their own hypothesis or contributing in an academically meaningful way in the lab unless they had loaded down in college courses in high school beyond AP Chem/Calc w/e. When people say "publish" in this thread, I'm assuming they don't mean 3rd or 4th author, which to my understanding may just be investing time in the project with only a working knowledge of it.

Most undergrads who publish are not 1st or 2nd author either.

We can go back and forth about this forever. I do get what you're saying, but there are absolutely excellent high schoolers out there capable of doing that work and having that knowledge. I'm not going to go into detail about the projects that have come out of my high school, because one of them is quite accomplished and easily traceable. Just look at the winners of the ISEF. https://student.societyforscience.org/top-winners
 
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That perhaps is my main problem with BS/MD: it leads to little, if any, socioeconomic diversity in medical students.
Diversity is irrelevant to these programs. The point is to capture your "high-achieving" student as evidenced by high school, ECs up to that point, and SAT/ACT scores. :lol::lol::lol:
 
huh? I don't understand. it's not like you're automatically a doctor once you get into a bs/md. the 8 year programs it's like the exact same thing as having a normal undergrad experience except you're guaranteed a seat if you meet certain conditions. you make it sound like it's the easy way out, when the bs/mds do all the same stuff trads do, and since most bs/md programs are competitive, the students have pretty good stats and resumes coming out of HS...
Yeah, you have a laughable GPA and MCAT cutoff to reach. Not at all like a normal undergrad which pushes you, esp. since many of these programs have ****ty undergrads.

Then the shock sets in when people start dropping like flies. Of course, when you have students who've been prepping for it since middle school, if you look at the Table of Contents of the first book. BS/MDs are competitive? HIGHLY depends on the medical school in question. The ones who do these are the mediocre med schools, not the ones who get great applicants thru the normal process.
 
Yeah, you have a laughable GPA and MCAT cutoff to reach. Not at all like a normal undergrad which pushes you, esp. since many of these programs have ****ty undergrads.

Then the shock sets in when people start dropping like flies. Of course, when you have students who've been prepping for it since middle school, if you look at the Table of Contents of the first book. BS/MDs are competitive? HIGHLY depends on the medical school in question. The ones who do these are the mediocre med schools, not the ones who get great applicants thru the normal process.

Ah yes, UCSD, Baylor, Northwestern, Brown, Case Western, Mt. Sinai, Pitt...totally mediocre.
 
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Most of BS/MD program requirements are laughable (~3.3 GPA, no MCAT). I can't imagine anybody not being able to handle it :laugh: IMO such programs create unnecessary unfair advantage because evaluating high school performance is different from evaluating college performance; high school in this country is laughably easy compared to college.

Understatement of the century. I wish I could go back in time and tell my 18 year old self that. :D
 
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Yeah, you have a laughable GPA and MCAT cutoff to reach. Not at all like a normal undergrad which pushes you, esp. since many of these programs have ****ty undergrads.

Then the shock sets in when people start dropping like flies. Of course, when you have students who've been prepping for it since middle school, if you look at the Table of Contents of the first book. BS/MDs are competitive? HIGHLY depends on the medical school in question. The ones who do these are the mediocre med schools, not the ones who get great applicants thru the normal process.

I agree with you about the schools being mediocre, but I wouldn't say the applicants are. It's just translating the cycle further up in someone's life. To get into the super good BS/MDs (somewhere like case) that is going to be significantly more competitive than even middle tier med schools in my opinion. It's usually 5k people for 10 seats.

Don't want to discuss program specifics, but there's also a difference in how a student is expected to perform if it's an accelerated program or not. Can't realistically expect the same performance out of students doing 22 credits/ semester + summer, that you can out of people who have 2 semesters of 15 a year.
 
Ah yes, UCSD, Baylor, Northwestern, Brown, Case Western, Mt. Sinai, Pitt...totally mediocre.
Not all, but most. Mt. Sinai is not directly after high school - it's an early assurance program not a BS/MD program. Brown is decreasing the number of PLMEs in their class for a reason - it used to be nearly all PLMEs, etc. etc. Doesn't address the maturity point either. That's why the rest of these schools have such low percentages of them when compared to the rest of the class. Students in Northwestern's HPME tended to have lower board scores and NW acknowledged this as a real problem.

It's why Brown used to let PLMEs apply out which a large number did until they stopped it bc they were losing really great applicants, and so said you could lose your spot if you do. The BS/MD helps the school more than the applicant.
 
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You are right; but I'd give them credit for trying to get into research without having an idea (as seen on this picture) about how to actually get involved.

PS I probably too sounded somewhat silly when I was trying to land a research position in a lab for the first time, but we learn things by trying; not by being afraid of sounding/looking silly.

For a letter seeking an unpaid research position written by a ~17 year-old high school student, I don't find it dorky at all; and if I had a lab and project that needed some relatively unskilled labor, I'd call this person in for an interview. It's initiative like this (even if parent-driven) that pays dividends down the road.
 
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It's initiative like this (even if parent-driven) that pays dividends down the road.
I'm not going to lie - I wish I had this kind of drive at 17, or even 18 or 19.
 
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