C4 rumor

[Gastrapathy]

Heard from a friend that his hospital is buzzing with a rumor that the interns were TASERed at C4. Can't wait to see that in Navy Crimes if true.

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[deleted480308]

Oooh more details

 

[sonofva]

Just to clarify it wasn't a taser like you'd see in an episode of "Cops" that they shoot at you. It was this box they strap to your buttocks when you're in the simulator. If you're screwing up some how they zap the **** out of you. All in good fun

 

[j4pac]

My buddy got shot in the eye with out of those fake ink explosives. LOL. Made the experience much more "real". He's fine now.

 

[Perrotfish]

[QUOTE="Gastrapathy, post: 15968978, member: eard from a friend that his hospital is buzzing with a rumor that the interns were TASERed at C4. Can't wait to see that in Navy Crimes if true.[/QUOTE] someone started delivering electric shocks to officers at C4, yes. Its been going on all year and yes, many of our Interns were furious over it. Is anyone here of sufficient rank to ask who approved this?

 

[Homunculus]

does this remind anyone else of the ESP research experiment in Ghostbusters where Venkman is shocking the poor nerd guy and picking up the chick?

-- your friendly neighborhood "you volunteered, didn't you? we're paying you, are we?" caveman

 

[deleted480308]

[QUOTE="Gastrapathy, post: 15968978, member: eard from a friend that his hospital is buzzing with a rumor that the interns were TASERed at C4. Can't wait to see that in Navy Crimes if true.

someone started delivering electric shocks to officers at C4, yes. Its been going on all year and yes, many of our Interns were furious over it. Is anyone here of sufficient rank to ask who approved this?[/QUOTE]

wait up.....this is an actual approved official curriculum thing? or is this some afterhours, we're all frat boys, hazing bull$%^&

 

[sonofva]

Did no one read my post? Hah.its a little black box they strap to your rear end they call the "motivator." Technically it's "optional," but no one in my platoon didn't get shocked at Least once

 

[pgg]

Just to clarify it wasn't a taser like you'd see in an episode of "Cops" that they shoot at you. It was this box they strap to your buttocks when you're in the simulator. If you're screwing up some how they zap the **** out of you. All in good fun

What simulator?

 

[sonofva]

It's this huge indoor complex that has a giant video screen, 100 degree heat, and sensory deprivation. They give you infrared m4s and the medic kits and have you engage enemy and try to experience what it's like performing casualty care under fire. And if you f up you get the motivator shocking you in the tuckus

 

[Homunculus]

beyond the frat (i can say it, i was in one) atmosphere this creates ("haha, johnny screwed up and listen to him yelp") is there evidence this improves learning or retention?

if it works for combat simulation i can't wait to use it at morning report.

--your friendly neighborhood "wake up!! bzzzzzzt!!" caveman

 

[pgg]

beyond the frat (i can say it, i was in one) atmosphere this creates ("haha, johnny screwed up and listen to him yelp") is there evidence this improves learning or retention?

if it works for combat simulation i can't wait to use it at morning report.

--your friendly neighborhood "wake up!! bzzzzzzt!!" caveman

When I was a med student, I rotated through the Bethesda anesthesiology department. At morning report one day they were pimping the new residents about equipment and monitors. They put a pulse ox on one of them and made fun when he got tachycardic when he didn't know an answer.

 

[Perrotfish]

When I was a med student, I rotated through the Bethesda anesthesiology department. At morning report one day they were pimping the new residents about equipment and monitors. They put a pulse ox on one of them and made fun when he got tachycardic when he didn't know an answer.

Now that's funny

 

[idq1i]

Is C4 optional for the milmed residents?

It's bad enough that we get gassed at OBC...

 

[pgg]

Is C4 optional for the milmed residents?

It's bad enough that we get gassed at OBC...

I'm pretty sure it's required, unless you were a USUHS student who did the Texas thing as a MS4 (same as C4 ... Do those MS4s still do that?).

Most of my co-interns who went enjoyed the week away from being an intern.

The tear gas chamber to teach people how to use their gas masks is totally appropriate, though not particularly fun. This electric shock thing at C4, enh, I wasn't there so maybe I shouldn't form an opinion, but it sounds like crap.

 

[Mace1370]

I'm pretty sure it's required, unless you were a USUHS student who did the Texas thing as a MS4 (same as C4 ... Do those MS4s still do that?).

Most of my co-interns who went enjoyed the week away from being an intern.

The tear gas chamber to teach people how to use their gas masks is totally appropriate, though not particularly fun. This electric shock thing at C4, enh, I wasn't there so maybe I shouldn't form an opinion, but it sounds like crap.

I get learning how to use the mask in the chamber (having it on, jumping around, trying to talk with the mask on). I don't understand why they make people take the mask off and force them to recite various details about themselves before they are allowed to leave the chamber.

 

[idq1i]

I get learning how to use the mask in the chamber (having it on, jumping around, trying to talk with the mask on). I don't understand why they make people take the mask off and force them to recite various details about themselves before they are allowed to leave the chamber.

Sadistic tendencies, frat house behavior.

 

[DeadCactus]

I get learning how to use the mask in the chamber (having it on, jumping around, trying to talk with the mask on). I don't understand why they make people take the mask off and force them to recite various details about themselves before they are allowed to leave the chamber.

Demonstration that the mask works and negatively reinforcing that bad things happen when you take the mask off...

 

[Gastrapathy]

Incredible and even more incredible that this behavior is defended. Are the shocks painful or just like a 9V on the tongue?

 

[Perrotfish]

Demonstration that the mask works and negatively reinforcing that bad things happen when you take the mask off...

+1. I agree with making everyone take the mask off. There are a depressing number of people who need this kind of immediate, visceral demonstration of cause and effect or they'll never believe that something works. If you don't believe me, try getting your non-military patients to get a flu shot.

 

[Homunculus]

do they test the ballistic plates, IOTV's, or kevlar's similarly? or fire resistant ACUs? or go into a tank of mosquitos to prove that permethrin repels them?

this logic is dumb, and is a leftover relic of the hazing days. putting my mask on correctly, proving it in the chamber, and exiting the chamber should suffice. if the guy burning the CS is doing is job correctly, people's whose masks are leaking should be easy to spot. purposefully making everyone take off their mask to "prove that it works" is a waste of time and energy. the amount of things they ask us to take their word for is immense, but this particular thing is so important to them why? it's a cultural byproduct of a time when they had nothing better to do, and is a "right of passage" type thing. it's dumb. i've done it twice (ROTC and OBC) and each time thought it was a dog and pony show.

--your friendly neighborhood gas gas gas caveman

 

[Gastrapathy]

Based on received PMs, this was way over the top. Burns, etc

 

[Homunculus]

Based on received PMs, this was way over the top. Burns, etc

that's too bad. would be interested to hear more about how it is "technically" optional. that's probably the course's command's way of avoiding getting in any hot water over it. but if opting out has negative consequences or there is undue pressure to opt-in, they may not be as protected as they think.

--your friendly neighborhood "sure you can say no but we will put you at the end of the line and you won't get out until 1900" caveman

 

[deleted480308]

that's too bad. would be interested to hear more about how it is "technically" optional. that's probably the course's command's way of avoiding getting in any hot water over it. but if opting out has negative consequences or there is undue pressure to opt-in, they may not be as protected as they think.

--your friendly neighborhood "sure you can say no but we will put you at the end of the line and you won't get out until 1900" caveman

About as appropriate as a colonel saying the hot 20yr old pfc had the option to not sleep with them

 

[Qurmish]

do they test the ballistic plates, IOTV's, or kevlar's similarly? or fire resistant ACUs? or go into a tank of mosquitos to prove that permethrin repels them?

this logic is dumb, and is a leftover relic of the hazing days. putting my mask on correctly, proving it in the chamber, and exiting the chamber should suffice. if the guy burning the CS is doing is job correctly, people's whose masks are leaking should be easy to spot. purposefully making everyone take off their mask to "prove that it works" is a waste of time and energy. the amount of things they ask us to take their word for is immense, but this particular thing is so important to them why? it's a cultural byproduct of a time when they had nothing better to do, and is a "right of passage" type thing. it's dumb. i've done it twice (ROTC and OBC) and each time thought it was a dog and pony show.

--your friendly neighborhood gas gas gas caveman

I thought the point was to gain familiarization with the feeling of CS gas and to train you on how to respond ("my eyes are open and my arms are flapping"). It seems like a realistic concern that people might freak out more if they had never experienced the sensation of being gassed. The hazing component is real and certainly that seemed to be the focus with the cadre when I did it, but the intention might be different at the policy level where these things are mandated. Isn't everyone in the Army supposed to go through CBRN gas chamber training yearly? I remember this always being threatened in my unit but no one ever followed through.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

Incredible and even more incredible that this behavior is defended. Are the shocks painful or just like a 9V on the tongue?

The shocks are entirely optional. In my group, maybe 2/3 of the people decided to get "motivated." No one (instructors or participants) urged or gave anyone a hard time that didn't want it.

As said previously, its an indoor complex that the first exercise is target practice/familiarization with CO2 powered infared M4s and 9mms. Next is engaging enemy combatants on the video screen. Lastly is going through the urban structure complex and its (still indoor) fake outdoor area to simulate TCCC recently taught procedures and protocols. The "motivator" is offered for these to wear to add to the stress (in addition to the stereo system playing gunfire and explosive sounds and dark lights as you fumble for tourniquets and other medical supplies to get your mannequin patient packed up for the fake helicopter coming).

If you want, the "motivator" there is a a walkie-talkie size brick clipped to your belt loop (over clothing, not touching skin) that delivers a jolt that gets your attention (mine didn't hurt). They only have one 'motivator' so in the TCCC exercise, only one person can wear it (if they want) out ofthe 5 person team.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Sounds fine to me.

How can anyone think this serves any useful purpose? So incredibly dumb.

 

[Perrotfish]

The shocks are entirely optional. In my group, maybe 2/3 of the people decided to get "motivated." No one (instructors or participants) urged or gave anyone a hard time that didn't want it.

As said previously, its an indoor complex that the first exercise is target practice/familiarization with CO2 powered infared M4s and 9mms. Next is engaging enemy combatants on the video screen. Lastly is going through the urban structure complex and its (still indoor) fake outdoor area to simulate TCCC recently taught procedures and protocols. The "motivator" is offered for these to wear to add to the stress (in addition to the stereo system playing gunfire and explosive sounds and dark lights as you fumble for tourniquets and other medical supplies to get your mannequin patient packed up for the fake helicopter coming).

If you want, the "motivator" there is a a walkie-talkie size brick clipped to your belt loop (over clothing, not touching skin) that delivers a jolt that gets your attention (mine didn't hurt). They only have one 'motivator' so in the TCCC exercise, only one person can wear it (if they want) out ofthe 5 person team.

I wonder how the real cost of C4 would compare to the cost of just flying every military Intern to a top ranked level 1 trauma center and having them do a TAD Trauma surgery month

 

[DeadCactus]

I wonder how the real cost of C4 would compare to the cost of just flying every military Intern to a top ranked level 1 trauma center and having them do a TAD Trauma surgery month

How much value do you really think an outside intern is going to get from being the bottom man on the totem pole a trauma center with 4 or 5 physicians on the team?

 

[idq1i]

How much value do you really think an outside intern is going to get from being the bottom man on the totem pole a trauma center with 4 or 5 physicians on the team?

Possibly, just POSSIBLY a bit more than getting zapped by a taser run by a sadistic NCO with an axe to grind ("damn MC officers having it too easy" kind of axe)

T minus 380 days

 

[DeadCactus]

Sure, if we're going to exaggerate the situation by ignoring the rest of the training and focus on a small optional portion of it as if that was the entirety of the situation. Let me try...

Whoo! Trauma call! I was awake for 36 hours ! I can feel Hippocrates flowing through my veins!


There's plenty of to be upset about in milmed. I just don't get the need to blow non-issues out of proportion, like you need extra evidence against milmed. At the very least it's an exercise in empathy for the poor bastards not making six figures to put up with the military.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Remind me what part of C4 helped me on either combat deployment. It did serve as a nice break from internship and my buddy met his wife there (I helped her over a wall on the obstacle course and she fell on him, it was fate).

 

[DeadCactus]

Not trying to sell it as a beacon of medical education, and maybe you honestly took nothing of value away from it, but people are rabble-rousing like it's rectal feeding...

 

[Perrotfish]

How much value do you really think an outside intern is going to get from being the bottom man on the totem pole a trauma center with 4 or 5 physicians on the team?

Theoretically, you could learn:

1) How to adequately sedate a trauma patient pending surgical management (Important for Peds/Ob/psych types)

2) How to triage a trauma patient

3) How to run an ATLS algorithm, and the chance to participate in one 10+ times

4) How to place emergent central lines, and the chance to practice at least a couple.

5) How to acutely manage a burn patient

6) Finally (arguably most importantly) how to do a FAST exam, and the opportunity to do that 20+ times

Not saying that any of this is necessary. After all GMOs aren't actually trauma surgeons, they're primary care doctors whose role in a major trauma is mostly focused on evacuation. However if you make the argument that GMOs need to understand the basics of managing trauma for semper Gumby purposes at trauma rotation at least MIGHT be helpful.

 

[psychbender]

Theoretically, you could learn:

1) How to adequately sedate a trauma patient pending surgical management (Important for Peds/Ob/psych types)

2) How to triage a trauma patient

3) How to run an ATLS algorithm, and the chance to participate in one 10+ times

4) How to place emergent central lines, and the chance to practice at least a couple.

5) How to acutely manage a burn patient

6) Finally (arguably most importantly) how to do a FAST exam, and the opportunity to do that 20+ times

Not saying that any of this is necessary. After all GMOs aren't actually trauma surgeons, they're primary care doctors whose role in a major trauma rarely is mostly focused on evacuation. However if you make the argument that GMOs need to understand the basics of managing trauma for semper Gumby purposes at trauma rotation at least MIGHT be helpful.

C4 actually taught you that? FAST exams were discussed when I went through four years ago, but we never got to touch a probe. Burn patients, and the Parkland formula, were discussed, and we had one or two verbal problems on how much fluid to give, but nothing more. There was no practice with central lines, let alone "emergent" ones. What I got from C4 was how poorly emergency medicine topics were being taught to nonphysicians (I had to correct poor instruction given to some of my nurse bunk-mates throughout the week), and how much the NCOs there hated young Medical Corps officers.

 

[Homunculus]

C4 actually taught you that? FAST exams were discussed when I went through four years ago, but we never got to touch a probe. Burn patients, and the Parkland formula, were discussed, and we had one or two verbal problems on how much fluid to give, but nothing more. There was no practice with central lines, let alone "emergent" ones. What I got from C4 was how poorly emergency medicine topics were being taught to nonphysicians (I had to correct poor instruction given to some of my nurse bunk-mates throughout the week), and how much the NCOs there hated young Medical Corps officers.

read his earlier reply. you guys are in agreement, methinks.

back to the original issue-- if this was purely volunteer and went down as fluffhead said, it's a non-starter.

--your friendly neighborhood wait a sec . . "fluffhead?" caveman

 

[Onefellswoop87]

read his earlier reply. you guys are in agreement, methinks.

back to the original issue-- if this was purely volunteer and went down as fluffhead said, it's a non-starter.

--your friendly neighborhood wait a sec . . "fluffhead?" caveman

Fluffhead . . . as in the title to one of the greatest Phish songs, ever.



Enjoy!

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

"fluffer
(noun) a person in the adult entertainment industry whose job it is to give male porno stars blowjobs in order to get them ready to perform."

Gotta love the urban dictionary (also wikipedia had the same definition). But, you're right. Fluffhead isn't weird at all...

 

[psychbender]

read his earlier reply. you guys are in agreement, methinks.

back to the original issue-- if this was purely volunteer and went down as fluffhead said, it's a non-starter.

--your friendly neighborhood wait a sec . . "fluffhead?" caveman

My bad, I was reading on my phone, skipped over what Perrotfish quoted, and thought he was saying that you could learn all of those things at C4.