Caduceus vs Staff of Asclepius

[Green Apple]

So I was considering getting a caduceus tatoo sometime later in life. So I decided to look up its meaning and role in mythology.

Apparently the caduceus is only mistakenly associated with medicine. Traditionally the caduceus is the staff of Hermes, who's the conductor of hte dead and protector of merchants and thieves. Book printers used to use the caduceus as a professional symbol. The first association with medicine came about when one bookprinter prominently displayed a caduceus in its medical textbooks. Later on, the US Navy Hospital Corps adopted the caduceus as its symbol.

The real symbol of medicine is the Staff of Asclepius, which is a plain wooden staff with ONE snake wound around it. Real medical institutions like medical schools and hospitals know this, but many biomedical companies apparently do not and continue to use the caduceus.

Today, I saw the caduceus used in the Medical College of Wisconsin prospective student video. The school has the staff of Asclepius in its logo. Maybe the people who made the video didn't know the difference? I dunno, I'm probably looking too much into this topic.

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[146233]

So I was considering getting a caduceus tatoo sometime later in life.

Man, you're hardcore. Maybe try getting into medical school first? In all seriousness, I was unaware of the difference and am surprised MCW doesn't.

 

[dideoxy]

I just learned about this difference a couple weeks ago. Most medical offices I drive by use the caduceus, so I always thought of it as the medical sign, or at least interchangeable with the rod of asclepius, which is used by most professional organizations. I think a lot of graphic design companies are unaware of the distinction, and thus they make medical office signs and a lot of medical-related imagery with the wrong one.

I actually think the caduceus looks cooler, with the wings representing the "always-on-call" philosophy behind medicine and the snakes mimicing a sort of double-helix (I know this wouldn't have been the original meaning, but I came to see it as that). The rod's a bit more boring but if you go to a good tattoo artist I'm sure they could make it look cool

 

[kylek044]

Technically you are right, but the caduceus is an accepted symbol of medicine as it is used almost interchangable with the Rod of Asclepius; the Army Medical Corps uses it, as well as MANY other medical organizations and practices. They say that 62% of medical associations use the caduceus rather then the road of Asclepius.

IMHO the rod looks kinda stupid and unrecognizable by itself (but it looks right in the star of life).

 

[penisclaw]

crazy. I was thinking of getting the same tat, but only once I actually get in to med school. would be kinda tough explaining that one if the whole med school thing doesn't work out for me.

also, though the caduceus is not technically the symbol for medicine, it is confused often enough that it might be better to go with that. plus it looks cooler than the staff.

 

[Green Apple]

Yeah, the caduceus IS much better looking than the rod. But now I'm afraid of getting a caduceus tattoo.

Jerk pointing at my tatoo: "You know the caduceus doesn't REALLY symbolize medicine."
Me: "Yeah, I knew that."
Jerk: "No you didn't."

 

[146233]

Jerk pointing at my tatoo: "You know the caduceus doesn't REALLY symbolize medicine."
Me: "Yeah, I knew that."
Jerk: "No you didn't."

...and the "Jerk" is the PD during your top ranked residency interview.

 

[River Rat]

you tend to see the caduceus with the business aspect side of medicine, i.e. pharmaceuticals, insurance companies.

hospitals, ambulances, ems all don the staff of aesclepius.

 

[spart39]

There is a theory that the Rod of Asclepius comes from the traditional treatment of a guinea worm infection. The guinea worm is a parasite that's larval form lives in lakes. When someone drinks the water they become infected. Eventually the female worm becomes very long and migrates down the leg until its head emerges from the skin near the foot. Naturally, one would at that point want to grab said parasite and remove it from the leg. Unfortunately, the worm is nearly the length of leg and if it breaks off when you pull it it will cause an intense allergic reaction in the leg. So, the treatment that has been used to remove the worm is to wrap it around a stick and slowly turn the stick one or twice a day until it comes out.

Worm around stick = snake around staff, or so the theory goes. So keep that in mind when deciding on the tatoo

 

[146233]

Worm around stick = snake around staff, or so the theory goes. So keep that in mind when deciding on the tatoo

"Ah, nice tattoo. So, you had worms?"

 

[armybound]

I have a caduceus tattoo. I kinda wish I had only gotten the 1 snake, which is also more associated with emergency medicine.

 

[Meatwad]

If you want the real deal, get the staff of Asclepius. It's not as recognizable to the public, and it looks a bit weirder, though. Still, neither tattoo is going to get you chicks, so you might as well get the staff since it's authentic in meaning.

However, like mentioned in this thread, it is (mistakenly) used to signify physicians by a lot of hospitals and things like that. I read a few months ago that the confusion was because Hermes was also the patron god of alchemy, which was pretty intertwined with medicine hundreds of years ago. It's kind of funny how the caduceus is more recognizable as a symbol for medicine even though it isn't technically representative of it.

Either way, as a pre-med, why would you even be thinking of getting a caduceus tat?

Get a sweet dragon or something.

 

[doinmybest5840]

I heard this theory in my parasitology class! Haha

 

[Jolie South]

There is a theory that the Rod of Asclepius comes from the traditional treatment of a guinea worm infection. The guinea worm is a parasite that's larval form lives in lakes. When someone drinks the water they become infected. Eventually the female worm becomes very long and migrates down the leg until its head emerges from the skin near the foot. Naturally, one would at that point want to grab said parasite and remove it from the leg. Unfortunately, the worm is nearly the length of leg and if it breaks off when you pull it it will cause an intense allergic reaction in the leg. So, the treatment that has been used to remove the worm is to wrap it around a stick and slowly turn the stick one or twice a day until it comes out.

Worm around stick = snake around staff, or so the theory goes. So keep that in mind when deciding on the tatoo

true, i heard this during my master's in tropical medicine. to this day, that is the most effective treatment for guinea worm (otherwise known as Dracunculus medinensis).

 

[Green Apple]

If I'm gonna get a caduceus (or rod of asclepius, I'm leaning towards the rod) tattoo, I'll get it as soon as I get into med school. I like the idea but I wouldn't tattoo myself before I'm accepted. I wouldn't put it off too long either. I might get disillusioned or jaded about medicine when I finally become a full fledged doctor, and bail out on the tattoo idea.

 

[MossPoh]

The caduceus is generally viewed as commerce. (It has other meanings since Hermes also led the dead and was god of thieves I believe) Supposedly printers put the caduceus inside their books for a long time. Eventually a popular line of medical books came along in the 1800s and that led to the popularity of using it.

Personally, I wouldn't do it unless it is a private spot. Not because of the debates that go on here..but because I have literally heard of about 20 premeds talking about getting it done. It is like the tribal armband of the health professions.

 

[indiamacbean]

I think that all of you guys are confused. If you want the real deal of medical tattoos I would consider the DONO HARM two handed knuckle tattoo. that is what will get you real respect.

 

[shotdiscus]

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[Mayday]

Well, ****. I never knew that. Should I change my avatar?

 

[Meatwad]

I think that all of you guys are confused. If you want the real deal of medical tattoos I would consider the DONO HARM two handed knuckle tattoo. that is what will get you real respect.

Haha, pretty awesome idea actually...

 

[Agent Splat]

Today, I saw the caduceus used in the Medical College of Wisconsin prospective student video. The school has the staff of Asclepius in its logo. Maybe the people who made the video didn't know the difference? I dunno, I'm probably looking too much into this topic.

what video is this? the one with the hard-to-hear audio and tons of photos put together with bad music?

 

[artaxerxes]

according to wikipedia, the Staff of Asclepius is associated with Osteo

 

[JAL05]

In the lobby of the FSU COM they have a giant statue of hermes with the caduceus.
My room mate and i are getting caduceus tats after acceptance.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

If I'm gonna get a caduceus (or rod of asclepius, I'm leaning towards the rod) tattoo, I'll get it as soon as I get into med school.

You're absolutely correct that the Staff of Asclepius is more correctly associated with the practice of medicine. The caduceus is commonly used in this country and elsewhere - and the fact that it's the wrong symbol never seems to have stopped anyone. Advertising and P.R. people seem to think that it's "prettier." Since the caduceus is associated with Hermes, conductor of the dead, "purists" think it has rather a negative connotation to be associated with medicine. Asclepius, the God of Healing, is the real traditional symbol.

The caduceus does seem to be associated more with commerce than the actual practice of medicine - and I believe that pharmacists commonly use caduceus as their symbol.

The tattoo may be a little over the top, but I'll certainly give you credit for getting into the culture of medicine and getting it right. I wouldn't know about any of this mess, but when I was managing an internal medicine clinic, our interior designer included a caduceus symbol on the wall in the drawings for a redecoration of the lobby. My academic physicians threw a hissy fit over it - and thus I learned about Asclepius versus caduceus!!

 

[8744]

You will live to regret your tatoos. One of the saddest things I see on a daily basis are old, tired-out, incredibly sick sixty-year-old men covered with tatoos which probably made them look incredibly fearsome when they were twenty and invincible but now just look pathetic as they suck desperately at the BIPAP trying to stretch their lives out by another couple of days.

Not to mention the incredibly fat, sloppy-looking diabetic women who smell like runny cheese and cheap perfume but who still sport their "tramp tags" as if they were still in the brief flowering of white trash beauty and not five years from the massive stroke that will kill them, their bodies slowly melting in the oven of their single-wide trailers until somebody notices the smell.

Not saying you will end up like this but you get my point.

 

[ChiDoc27]

You will live to regret your tatoos. One of the saddest things I see on a daily basis are old, tired-out, incredibly sick sixty-year-old men covered with tatoos which probably made them look incredibly fearsome when they were twenty and invincible but now just look pathetic as they suck desperately at the BIPAP trying to stretch their lives out by another couple of days.

Not to mention the incredibly fat, sloppy-looking diabetic women who smell like runny cheese and cheap perfume but who still sport their "tramp tags" as if they were still in the brief flowering of white trash beauty and not five years from the massive stroke that will kill them, their bodies slowly melting in the oven of their single-wide trailers until somebody notices the smell.

Not saying you will end up like this but you get my point.

Ok, i think that this might be one of the worst arguments as to why not to get a tattoo. I have a small tattoo, and my mom always says, "Are you going to want that when you're 80??" I always have the exact same response, "No, but I probably won't want to have wrinkles and incontinence when I'm 80 either. But I'm not 80, and I want it now." Sorry for the threat hi-jack, by the way.

Oh, and that second part about "their bodies slowly melting in the oven of their single-wide..." is a really nice way to talk about patients or people in general. Classy.

 

[smq123]

I have a small tattoo, and my mom always says, "Are you going to want that when you're 80??" I always have the exact same response, "No, but I probably won't want to have wrinkles and incontinence when I'm 80 either. But I'm not 80, and I want it now."

I think Panda's point is that you can be 80 yo, with wrinkles and incontinence, or you can be 80 yo, with wrinkles, incontinence, and a tattoo that looked good 50 years ago but now just makes you look kind of sad, lonely, and pathetic.

But if it's a small tattoo, it might not be too visible if you get sufficiently wrinkly. Just a thought.

 

[shotdiscus]

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[8744]

...Oh, and that second part about "their bodies slowly melting in the oven of their single-wide..." is a really nice way to talk about patients or people in general. Classy...

I assure you I meant this literally. Although my career as an EMT was brief, I went on several runs to trailers in which incredibly obese people had died. The bodies do sort of melt after a week or two in an non-airconditioned single-wide trailer baking in the hot Louisana Summer. This is just a fact of life down there. People die of massive heart attacks or strokes and nobody discovers the body until either the smell gets really bad or their cousins notice that they haven't heard from them in a while.

 

[Femme Fatale]

*

 

[zmeister22]

You will live to regret your tatoos. One of the saddest things I see on a daily basis are old, tired-out, incredibly sick sixty-year-old men covered with tatoos which probably made them look incredibly fearsome when they were twenty and invincible but now just look pathetic as they suck desperately at the BIPAP trying to stretch their lives out by another couple of days.

Not to mention the incredibly fat, sloppy-looking diabetic women who smell like runny cheese and cheap perfume but who still sport their "tramp tags" as if they were still in the brief flowering of white trash beauty and not five years from the massive stroke that will kill them, their bodies slowly melting in the oven of their single-wide trailers until somebody notices the smell.

Not saying you will end up like this but you get my point.

First of all, tattoos have nothing to do with the type of person you are or how you will end up. There are plenty of "white trash" people out there tattoo-free who ended up doing nothing with themselves except getting fat and arrested and there are people with tattoos that have become wonderfully successful human beings that serve others, whether they are physicians or not. The attitude of Panda Bear above is bothersome and the prejudice displayed in his brief chastising comments is most definitely displayed in his actions and treatment of patients.

Attitudes like that are one of the various causes to the health care "road blocks" in this country to the poor or underprivileged or "different" or those who avoid the doctor because of their fears of what the physician will think.

I personally have several very large tattoos: a 1/4 sleeve on my right arm of the Edwin Smith papyrus tablet vii (5000 year old medical procedure text, the oldest known, 1st example of evidence based medical practice) and the other is a 1/2 sleeve on my right leg of the caduceus surrounded by the prayer of St. Francis (look it up, one of the most beautiful prayers ever). I personally work in a very very poor, urban ER setting and see these "pathetic" people several times a day but they deserve the same care as anyone else. I have had many positive experiences with my tattoos and patients. If a patient has tattoos and appears nervous, I start to talk about theirs and mine, often putting them at ease and making them feel not so "put off" or judged.

 

[Gut Shot]

So I was considering getting a caduceus tatoo sometime later in life.

F*ck that, dude. Get "SPRING BREAK '08!!!" on your ankle come March.

 

[kylek044]

First of all, tattoos have nothing to do with the type of person you are or how you will end up. There are plenty of "white trash" people out there tattoo-free who ended up doing nothing with themselves except getting fat and arrested and there are people with tattoos that have become wonderfully successful human beings that serve others, whether they are physicians or not. The attitude of Panda Bear above is bothersome and the prejudice displayed in his brief chastising comments is most definitely displayed in his actions and treatment of patients.

Attitudes like that are one of the various causes to the health care "road blocks" in this country to the poor or underprivileged or "different" or those who avoid the doctor because of their fears of what the physician will think.

I personally have several very large tattoos: a 1/4 sleeve on my right arm of the Edwin Smith papyrus tablet vii (5000 year old medical procedure text, the oldest known, 1st example of evidence based medical practice) and the other is a 1/2 sleeve on my right leg of the caduceus surrounded by the prayer of St. Francis (look it up, one of the most beautiful prayers ever). I personally work in a very very poor, urban ER setting and see these "pathetic" people several times a day but they deserve the same care as anyone else. I have had many positive experiences with my tattoos and patients. If a patient has tattoos and appears nervous, I start to talk about theirs and mine, often putting them at ease and making them feel not so "put off" or judged.

 

[Green Apple]

Nice post, zmeister. I don't believe tatoos are any indication of what kind of person you are, either. There is this professor (history or political theory, I think) at my UG institution with multiple piercings and a huge tatoo on his scalp. I've never had a class with him, but I heard from friends he's the most intellectual person they've ever met.

 

[mastamark]

I can't believe people are actually getting tattoos of medical symbols. Good Luck guys, I hope you don't do anything you will regret later.

 

[zmeister22]

I can believe that I have that symbol on me. I have been involved with EMS/emergency medicine since I was 17 and even if, for some reason, I am not able to attend medical school, I will stay in my current role and be involved with medicine that way.

 

[ssj27krillin]

I want to eventually get a tattoo later on in life of the three things I love, medicine (the Staff of Asclepius), something with scuba diving, and the mets all in one tattoo. any ideas? because im completely lost.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

First of all, tattoos have nothing to do with the type of person you are or how you will end up.

You're entitled to feel that way and I might even agree with you - just as long as you don't have a problem with people my age (45) who don't agree with you. When I was in college the first time, tattoos were for sailors, longshoremen, and truck drivers. Nothing wrong with sailors, longshoremen, or truck drivers, but tattoos were something professionals of any discipline just didn't have. As you progress in training, your evaluations will become increasingly subjective and you will undoubtedly encounter some middle-aged attendings who don't like tattoos on students and who don't really care what you think. If your scrubs cover your tattoos, you're fine. If they don't - it won't keep you from becoming a physician, but it may well ding your rotation grades and your residency placement. The attending's right to subjectively evaluate your "professionalism" will definitely trump your right to free expression. I know a guy at my school with some lower-arm tattoos that he covered with long sleeves for interviews, and he's preparing to spend a fortune to have them removed.

 

[zmeister22]

Despite my urge to do more tattooing, I have kept all of my tattoos where they are completely covered by scrubs .

 

[littlealex]

http://www.freedom2ink.com/default.asp

Easily removable tattoos. I plan on getting 5 of these.

 

[jbrice1639]

while it may be an error that the caduceus has become the symbol of medicine, it is not incorrect to use it as the symbol of the medical profession. like many words, over thousands of years, it has been mistakenly interpreted, but the stedman's medical dictionary and the webster's medical dictionary both name it a symbol of the profession. so...it would not be "wrong" to get it as a tattoo, or put it on a business card, or whatever else you want to do with it.
___________________________________
ca·du·ce·us (k-ds-s, -shs, -dy-)
n. pl. ca·du·ce·i (-s-)

1. A winged staff with two serpents twined around it, carried by Hermes.
2. An insignia modeled on Hermes' staff and used as the symbol of the medical profession.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
___________________________________
Main Entry: ca·du·ceus
Pronunciation: k&-'dü-sE-&s, -sh&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural ca·du·cei /-sE-"I/
: a medical insignia bearing a representation of a staff with two entwined snakes and two wings at the top: a : one of the symbols of a physician —compare STAFF OF AESCULAPIUS b : the emblem of a medical corps or a department of the armed services (as of the U.S. Army)
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

 

[jbrice1639]

It's "tramp stamp" aka "bullseye." Defined to be any lower back or pubic area tat.

yep - two handlebars to hold onto and a donation tray in the middle to pay when you're done.

 

[Dulcina]

crap... technically i have a tramp stamp =(
I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but if i were to redo it, I wouldnt get the tat.

no, it isnt a medical one.

 

[8744]

First of all, tattoos have nothing to do with the type of person you are or how you will end up. There are plenty of "white trash" people out there tattoo-free who ended up doing nothing with themselves except getting fat and arrested and there are people with tattoos that have become wonderfully successful human beings that serve others, whether they are physicians or not. The attitude of Panda Bear above is bothersome and the prejudice displayed in his brief chastising comments is most definitely displayed in his actions and treatment of patients.

Attitudes like that are one of the various causes to the health care "road blocks" in this country to the poor or underprivileged or "different" or those who avoid the doctor because of their fears of what the physician will think.

I personally have several very large tattoos: a 1/4 sleeve on my right arm of the Edwin Smith papyrus tablet vii (5000 year old medical procedure text, the oldest known, 1st example of evidence based medical practice) and the other is a 1/2 sleeve on my right leg of the caduceus surrounded by the prayer of St. Francis (look it up, one of the most beautiful prayers ever). I personally work in a very very poor, urban ER setting and see these "pathetic" people several times a day but they deserve the same care as anyone else. I have had many positive experiences with my tattoos and patients. If a patient has tattoos and appears nervous, I start to talk about theirs and mine, often putting them at ease and making them feel not so "put off" or judged.

You're joking, right?

 

[8744]

The most pathetic thing I have ever seen: The naked, bloated, week-old corpse of an incredibly obese fifty-something woman laying face down on some ratty carpet in her single-wide trailer. Visible above her extremely wide ass were the distended but still legible words of her tatoo, "Hot Stuff."

I tell you. It made a philosopher out of me.

 

[8744]

First of all, tattoos have nothing to do with the type of person you are or how you will end up. There are plenty of "white trash" people out there tattoo-free who ended up doing nothing with themselves except getting fat and arrested and there are people with tattoos that have become wonderfully successful human beings that serve others, whether they are physicians or not. The attitude of Panda Bear above is bothersome and the prejudice displayed in his brief chastising comments is most definitely displayed in his actions and treatment of patients.

Attitudes like that are one of the various causes to the health care "road blocks" in this country to the poor or underprivileged or "different" or those who avoid the doctor because of their fears of what the physician will think.

I personally have several very large tattoos: a 1/4 sleeve on my right arm of the Edwin Smith papyrus tablet vii (5000 year old medical procedure text, the oldest known, 1st example of evidence based medical practice) and the other is a 1/2 sleeve on my right leg of the caduceus surrounded by the prayer of St. Francis (look it up, one of the most beautiful prayers ever). I personally work in a very very poor, urban ER setting and see these "pathetic" people several times a day but they deserve the same care as anyone else. I have had many positive experiences with my tattoos and patients. If a patient has tattoos and appears nervous, I start to talk about theirs and mine, often putting them at ease and making them feel not so "put off" or judged.

Dude, I personally work as a physician in a poor, urban ER and if there's one thing that distinguishes many of the pathetic losers in the great game of life (who none-the-less get superlative medical care) it's the number and the location of their tatoos.

Little Marine Corps Eagle Globe and Anchor on the deltoid or forearm? No big deal. Lot's of military men get a tatoo. Tribal stripes or prison tats on the fingers? Not going to end well. Not a perfect rule but enough to establish a gestalt and how you are going to be judged by many people, including me, who may have only a few minutes to decide to explore your individualhood more closely or put your resume in the discard pile.

As to avoiding their doctor, wow, I think we're all waiting for that to happen.

 

[smeagol]

Visible above her extremely wide ass were the distended but still legible words of her tatoo, "Hot Stuff."

I tell you. It made a philosopher out of me.

Ack I feel terrible for chuckling at this

 

[alwaysaangel]

crap... technically i have a tramp stamp =(
I don't feel strongly one way or the other, but if i were to redo it, I wouldnt get the tat.

no, it isnt a medical one.

Didn't realize what it was dubbed at the time?

I've always thought tat artists should inform girls before they start drawing..."uh you realize this is commonly known as a tramp stamp..."

Just make sure when you go to bars etc. you wear a shirt long enough to cover it (not hard anymore since midrifts aren't in style anymore). But I do know plenty of guys who automatically assume a girl is easy and will more frequently hit on girls with tramps stamps than girls without. So it really is a common belief by men

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Easily-covered tats are cool. I bet Panda has heard an old expression that I used to hear in the hospital ER with certain scruffy-looking patients - an "indirect vital sign:" "What's the patient's T-to-T?" The T:T refers to the ratio of the number of tattoos the patient has versus the number of teeth the patient has. A high T:T is a reliable indicator of an impending patient encounter that probably won't be much fun.

 

[Gut Shot]

Not going to end well. Not a perfect rule but enough to establish a gestalt and how you are going to be judged by many people, including me, who may have only a few minutes to decide to explore your individualhood more closely or put your resume in the discard pile.

I don't know why you're discouraging all these greenhorns from running to the ink parlor with their acceptance letters in hand. I need more people to openly laugh at, and M0s sporting ghey medical tattoos would be perfect.