California Northstate gains Accreditation

[el_duderino]

To expand on my "no," let me speak about my own experience with my own school.

First of all, I'm not a student who fills any diversity quotas, and I certainly wasn't selected for my stellar GPA. My MCAT was good but not phenomenal (top 80-90% at my school, which is a low-tier US MD school). Yet my school interviewed and accepted me anyway.

From my first interactions with the faculty there, I quickly realized that they really honestly care a lot more about how good of a physician you'll make than how smart you are or how likely you are to crush Step I or how diverse the class is. Every time one of the senior faculty speaks about patient care, they hammer and hammer and hammer about listening to, connecting with, and empathizing with the patient. Our standardized patient interactions are graded at least as much for making the patient feel comfortable and cared about as we are on the checklists of things we need to examine and ask.

I can also speak to the interview process. My school does MMI interviews and utilizes student volunteers as some of the interviewers. We score interviewees based heavily on non-intellectual metrics like awareness of social justice, ability to empathize with people unlike themselves, ability to communicate effectively in several ways, etc.

So, "no", intellectual ability is not the primary factor for a potential medical student or a medical student.

Medical schools are overwhelmed with applicants that have the intellectual ability to pass the curriculum. But the thing is... you can effectively teach the process and job of medicine in lecture and rotation format. You can't effectively teach someone how to actually be aware of, care about, and interact positively and effectively with the world around them. It's also very hard to teach them, particularly in a lecture or PBL format, how to effectively deal with personal and interpersonal stress. Medical schools look for candidates who are smart enough and possess those qualities. For the most part, people who are exceptionally smart but don't possess those qualities get looked over.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[el_duderino]

Hallmark card phrases. I guarantee you the highly skilled docs I shadowed would scoff at those hackneyed phrases.

And fyi taxpayer supported state med schools are no less concerned about $ than CSNU. Wake up. Pensions of tenured med school faculty US wide are not ones you'd associate with Mother Teresa selfless "passionate about medicine" individuals.

Are you even a med student/resident/physician? It sure doesn't sound like it.

 

[Hyde]

I'm still poking around for UCD's list.

4.0 automatons are a dime-a-dozen.

Poke no further:
https://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mdprogram/registrar/pdfs/2014_Match_Public.pdf

No doubt osteopathic schools see those 4.0/40 MCAT automaton applicants all the time...

 

[Hyde]

Are you even a med student/resident/physician? It sure doesn't sound like it.

I'm about to matriculate shortly.
Right now I am enjoying my last bit of liberation time.
If I don't "sound" like what you are accustomed to hearing, it may be that you are hanging with too many like minded people.
You should diversify your friendship circle.

 

[el_duderino]

I'm about to matriculate shortly.

Oh, that explains that.

 

[anonimoose]

Also CNSU isn't going to take much of anyone from CA DOs or at least the informed applicants, seeing as Touro's match list alone beats the pants off UC Davis medical school's match list

can someone post both lists?

Sorry, can't help myself.

Touro University California's College of Osteopathic Medicine residency "match list" for the class of 2014:
http://com.tu.edu/_resources/docs/curriculum/2013-2014_GME_accountability_report.pdf

University of California at Davis' School of Medicine match list for the class of 2014:
https://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mdprogram/registrar/pdfs/2014_Match_Public.pdf

But remember, it's like reading chicken guts to interpret match lists.....you need a resident in the field to tell you what's a good program or not, just like a PhD in, say, Anatomy can tell you that school X has a great Anatomy program. I couldn't begin to tell yo what's a good Neuroscience PhD program, but my Neuroscience colleagues sure can!

What Dr. Goro said.

That being said, if we're talking about what are generally agreed to be the two most prestigious medical schools/programs in California -- Stanford and UCSF -- then the count is:

Of Touro CA's graduates,
- 6 went into UCSF-affiliated residency programs
- 2 went into Stanford-affiliated residency programs

Of UC Davis's graduates:
- 5 went into UCSF-affiliated residency programs
- 5 went into Stanford-affiliated residency programs

And if we're talking about "ROAD", then the count is:

Of Touro CA's graduates,
- 3 went into Radiology
- 0 went into Ophthalmology
- 3 went into Anesthesiology
- 0 went into Dermatology

Of UC Davis's graduates:
- 3 went into Radiology
- 3 went into Ophthalmology
- 3 went into Anesthesiology
- 2 went into Dermatology

Thus, my cursory review leads me to conclude that Monster_Cat's declaration of "Touro's match list...beats the pants off UC Davis medical school's match list" seems a bit hyperbolic. Not surprised.

 

[anonimoose]

Look at and compare specific surgical speciality matches in the past few years, for example one I checked only had one ent and orthodox for Davis and touro had plenty more ppl in surgery.

Fine.

I don't know what "orthodox" is (sorry to be so caustic; of course you meant "Orthopedics"), but if we're talking about the most competitive programs according to the National Residency Matching Program (NRMP) -- which includes ENT and Orthopedic Surgery:
https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2014/04/04/the-toughest-fields-for-match-day-2014

Of Touro CA's graduates,
- 0 went into Neurological Surgery
- 2 went into Orthopedic Surgery (1 AOA, 1 military)
- 1 went into Otolaryngology (AOA)
- 0 went into Plastic Surgery
- 0 went into Radiation Oncology

Of UC Davis's graduates:
- 1 went into Neurological Surgery
- 4 went into Orthopedic Surgery
- 1 went into Otolaryngology
- 0 went into Plastic Surgery
- 2 went into Radiation Oncology

I don't know where you're getting "for example one I checked only had one ent and orthodox (sic; obviously orthopedic) for Davis". Source?

Stanford and ucsf aren't the only top institutions and programs noteworthy either.

I never said they were; I merely referred to them as "the two most prestigious medical schools/programs in California". Do you disagree? (I specifically referred to Stanford and UCSF because it's safe to say that a significant proportion of students at Touro CA and UC Davis [and yes, at CNUCOM] aspire to stay in the golden state. Do you disagree?)

I provided links to the original source documents. You are free to "provide a more comprehensive and objective evaluation" comparing the placement of Touro CA's graduates with UC Davis' graduates in other "top institutions and programs noteworthy (sic)".

You need to provide a more comprehensive and objective evaluation

Happy to do so! I'll follow your lead.

 

[anonimoose]

Touro's match list is very impressive either way though.

Absolutely no disagreement there.

Just respectfully exhort all of us to be as accurate as possible in our assessments. The whole point of this discussion is to (hopefully) help inform, guide, and counsel prospective students at CNUCOM of both the good and the bad (and again, there are a LOT of red flags right now).

 

[Goro]

I'd like to point out that most COMs want their grads to go into Primary Care. At my school, our applicants are self-selecting toward this when they apply.

So the Touro (or any other COM) vs UCD is kind of an apples vs oranges comparison for the most part. If CNU has a mission to provide doctors for that part of CA, then the bulk of their grads may also end up in Primary Care.

I meant orthopedic, but my phone had the chutzpah to correct it to orthodox. I will look into things more later today and report back, until then mazel tov for the information you have provided. Touro's match list is very impressive either way though.

 

[leela13]

Interviewed today. Loved it. I have nothing bad to say. PM me for more details. I will be matriculating if I get in. Leela out.

 

[Abraxas65]

Interviewed today. Loved it. I have nothing bad to say. PM me for more details. I will be matriculating if I get in. Leela out.

Want to give me your Touro acceptance if you get in

 

[leela13]

Want to give me your Touro acceptance if you get in

Sure! It's all yours

 

[allantois]

Post details here. It'd really contribute to the thread and future discussion.

Except that it will not. Whoever wanted to apply to CNU, would have done so by now. If they are given an II, they will have an opportunity to judge the school for themselves. Otherwise, posting in this thread will result in nothing but further speculation and personal attacks.

 

[Hyde]

. If CNU has a mission to provide doctors for that part of CA, then the bulk of their grads may also end up in Primary Care.

Or maybe, possibly, probably not.

CNSU is an allopathic med school. No matter what its mission statement is , because CNSU will attract high caliber ( MCAT, GPA) applicants, it cannot block its M.D. students from exploring specialization. As you point out nearby DO schools attract and support primary care oriented students. That's the beauty of medicine -it allows for many different paths.

It's a win win all way round, yes?

 

[Hyde]

Interviewed today. Loved it. I have nothing bad to say. I will be matriculating if I get in. Leela out.

I am happy for you, leela. CNSU should feel honored that you want to matriculate there.

 

[Gandyy]

Or maybe, possibly, probably not.

CNSU is an allopathic med school. No matter what its mission statement is , because CNSU will attract high caliber ( MCAT, GPA) applicants, it cannot block its M.D. students from exploring specialization. As you point out nearby DO schools attract and support primary care oriented students. That's the beauty of medicine -it allows for many different paths.

It's a win win all way round, yes?

Just curious.. if you were Dean of admissions at a MD school, would you do holistic review or would you give people acceptances based on MCAT/GPA only?

 

[OutInSacramento]

I didn't know that continued discussion could make a thread less valuable, but posters here have managed to find a way to do exactly that.

 

[Spector1]

Or maybe, possibly, probably not.

CNSU is an allopathic med school. No matter what its mission statement is , because CNSU will attract high caliber ( MCAT, GPA) applicants, it cannot block its M.D. students from exploring specialization. As you point out nearby DO schools attract and support primary care oriented students. That's the beauty of medicine -it allows for many different paths.

It's a win win all way round, yes?

They could try to screen for people who profess a desire to go into primary and rural care.

 

[Hyde]

They could try to screen for people who profess a desire to go into primary and rural care.

CNSU has provisional accreditation right now. Put yourself in CNSU's shoes. It's in their best interests to accept students who will do well in board exams and match well in residencies across the board, not just in FM and RM. They need "just enough" of their med students to pursue FM and RM. Screening out competitive applicants does not make sense for the greater good, as it were, of CNSU's long term reputation as respectable allopathic med school. They're not playing the short game here nor do they want to duplicate the goals of nearby DO schools.

 

[el_duderino]

CNSU has provisional accreditation right now. Put yourself in CNSU's shoes. It's in their best interests to accept students who will do well in board exams and match well in residencies across the board, not just in FM and RM. They need "just enough" of their med students to pursue FM and RM. Screening out competitive applicants does not make sense for the greater good, as it were, of CNSU's long term reputation as respectable allopathic med school. They're not playing the short game here nor do they want to duplicate the goals of nearby DO schools.

..... So are they playing the short game by making sure they gain accreditation by matching students into "good" specialties with "good" board scores, or are they playing the long game by making sure they turn out effective physicians with excellent communication and clinical skills? Accepting the people who will blow away Step 1 and 2 and match into derm/ENT/whatever regardless of whether they'll end up being respected is very different than accepting people who will do fine on Step 1 and end up being highly respected.

You're mixing your messages here a bit, I think.

 

[Hyde]

..... You're mixing your messages here a bit, I think.

No I'm not. But imho I think you see whatever your own biases cause you to see.

 

[Dohnut]

I guess the bottom line question here is, how to make the most profits fastest?


And here's one of my favorite movie quotes from The Matrix: "....Appearances can be deceiving...." - former Agent Smith

 

[el_duderino]

No I'm not. But imho I think you see whatever your own biases cause you to see.

Well what do you mean by "the short game"?

 

[Hyde]

Well what do you mean by "the short game"?

I would have thought it's obvious. They're not just filling their seats indiscriminately with anyone who applies. It seems like CNSU is looking to the future and establishing itself as a respected allopathic medical school. And a key way to do that is to accept academically talented candidates. CNSU needs to distinguish itself and separate itself from mission statements and goals of DO schools. And you don't do that by filling your entire class with med school students who are not academically competitive for a variety of residencies and who might be better suited to DO schools in terms of training interests as well as skills and professional goals.

 

[el_duderino]

This makes no sense.

 

[dellprecision]

I would have thought it's obvious. They're not just filling their seats indiscriminately with anyone who applies. It seems like CNSU is looking to the future and establishing itself as a respected allopathic medical school. And a key way to do that is to accept academically talented candidates. CNSU needs to distinguish itself and separate itself from mission statements and goals of DO schools. And you don't do that by filling your entire class with med school students who are not academically competitive for a variety of residencies and who might be better suited to DO schools in terms of training interests as well as skills and professional goals.

(Speculation ahead)
If I were starting a new med school, I'd be much more wary towards aiming for high-stat applicants who haven't necessarily demonstrated the necessary clinical/volunteering experiences, because to me, those are the applicants who are much more likely to drop out (not because of the academic rigor, but because they realize that they're pursuing the wrong career). And I feel like having a low attrition rate is much more important than matching graduates into competitive residencies, from an accreditation perspective.

 

[foreverbuckeye]

From my experience interviewing at CNU, they share same vision as other medical schools in comprising a diversified class with a limited intent on focusing their admissions efforts in admitting only high academic achievers or those indicating intents on entering primary care. I got a very "holistic" feel from them -- this is the movement that most, if not all medical schools have transitioned to. Thus, the applicants they accept will have a wide range of achievements and interests. I don't recall hearing them say even once that they are primary care focused, but that doesn't mutually exclude them wanting to admit high academic achievers with the propensity to enter careers in academia. I surmise the upcoming class compositions at CNU will be comparable to other US allopathic schools - time will tell!

At another US MD school I interviewed at, they specifically said that the school is primary care focused; although I read/heard speculation elsewhere about CNU wanting to admit high MCATers or future Mother Teresas, it's just that - speculation. One interviewer at CNU was a specialist and she specifically said CNU will produce specialists and will be very successful based on its location in California.

To current and future CNU applicants: I highly encourage you to individually assess the school and come to your own conclusions, before seeking others' opinions. I, like many others had my reservations about the school, but interviewing there quelled my concerns. Especially if you are considering this school, do your own research first before letting media influence your perception. Observation before interpretation. Not the other way around.

 

[OutInSacramento]

If you're going to try and predict board scores, 1st & 2nd year didactic grades, and 3rd & 4th year clinical behavior reviews -- in other words, how well they match -- based on entering student's qualities (e.g. MCAT, grades, interviewing ability), here are statistical correlations they've done relating these items:

 

[Hyde]

From my experience interviewing at CNU, they share same vision as other medical schools in comprising a diversified class with a limited intent on focusing their admissions efforts in admitting only high academic achievers or those indicating intents on entering primary care. I got a very "holistic" feel from them -- this is the movement that most, if not all medical schools have transitioned to. Thus, the applicants they accept will have a wide range of achievements and interests. I don't recall hearing them say even once that they are primary care focused, but that doesn't mutually exclude them wanting to admit high academic achievers with the propensity to enter careers in academia. I surmise the upcoming class compositions at CNU will be comparable to other US allopathic schools - time will tell!

I'm glad that as an interviewee, you learned that CNSU will not limit itself to recruiting primary care focused med school students or limit the focus of training opportunities. That's the way it should be especially because students who do not receive institutional need based scholarships will run up considerable private loan debt and should not be constrained in their professional goals.

Just so you know - here's what has been said elsewhere so there is an expectation of primary focus in some quarters ( examples):

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/436326/20150630_threenewlyaccreditedmedschools.html

snip

"California Northstate University College of Medicine in Elk Grove, Calif., will focus on educating primary care physicians."

http://fox40.com/2015/06/11/elk-grove-medical-school-gets-rare-accreditation/

snip

"Both health systems are also concerned about the lack of doctors available, especially primary care physicians, which will be a specialty of Northstate."

 

[Goro]

Concur. It's LOW MCAT scores that predict failure; once you get about 27 and higher, the risks of failing flatten out.

But good test takers tend to do well, no matter what field they're in.

It's a tad premature to speculate on CNU's board performance when a single student has yet to matriculate.

If you're going to try and predict board scores, 1st & 2nd year didactic grades, and 3rd & 4th year clinical behavior reviews -- in other words, how well they match -- based on entering student's qualities (e.g. MCAT, grades, interviewing ability), here are statistical correlations they've done relating these items:

View attachment 194388

 

[foreverbuckeye]

Thanks for posting this. I should clarify what I said, when I said I didn't hear CNU say they are primary are focused, I meant I literally didn't hear them say that in the interview day, unlike another school I'm considering. I did read about it, however. Although they say they focused on producing primary care physicians, my point was that there is reason to believe that is not all they are looking for when deciding who to interview and accept.

I'm glad that as an interviewee, you learned that CNSU will not limit itself to recruiting primary care focused med school students or limit the focus of training opportunities. That's the way it should be especially because students who do not receive institutional need based scholarships will run up considerable private loan debt and should not be constrained in their professional goals.

Just so you know - here's what has been said elsewhere so there is an expectation of primary focus in some quarters ( examples):

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/436326/20150630_threenewlyaccreditedmedschools.html

snip

"California Northstate University College of Medicine in Elk Grove, Calif., will focus on educating primary care physicians."

http://fox40.com/2015/06/11/elk-grove-medical-school-gets-rare-accreditation/

snip

"Both health systems are also concerned about the lack of doctors available, especially primary care physicians, which will be a specialty of Northstate."

 

[GnomeBeGone]

FWIW (for any silent readers), I unambiguously stated what I have an interest in specializing in during 2 of my 3 interviews. Give the adcom's some credit---I'm sure they can tell if you're being insincere. If you have X years of activities and none seem in line with what you said during your interview (they take notes), they can do the math.

That being said, people change their minds. If this or any other school does place an emphasis on primary care training, they can conceivably still attract more people into primary care areas later in the game, including people who would have been competitive for other things.

 

[Spector1]

Thanks for posting this. I should clarify what I said, when I said I didn't hear CNU say they are primary are focused, I meant I literally didn't hear them say that in the interview day, unlike another school I'm considering. I did read about it, however. Although they say they focused on producing primary care physicians, my point was that there is reason to believe that is not all they are looking for when deciding who to interview and accept.

I'd just be open minded and avoid saying I want to go into some hyper specialized and competitive specialty like pediatric oncology or interventional neurology that few people from this school will get matched to appropriate residencies for. Be realistic.

 

[SoCalPipeDreamer]

Has there been any discussion on the school's focus on producing family practitioners?

Sorry I'm late to the convo and 17 pages is too much catch up for me haha.

 

[Spector1]

CNSU has provisional accreditation right now. Put yourself in CNSU's shoes. It's in their best interests to accept students who will do well in board exams and match well in residencies across the board, not just in FM and RM. They need "just enough" of their med students to pursue FM and RM. Screening out competitive applicants does not make sense for the greater good, as it were, of CNSU's long term reputation as respectable allopathic med school. They're not playing the short game here nor do they want to duplicate the goals of nearby DO schools.

*preliminary accreditation, not provisional accreditation

 

[4401]

All,

Newbie question. I understand the "traditional/conventional" model of medical training:

1. Medical students at Prestige University Medical School doing their clinical rotations learn from the resident physicians training in Prestige University-affiliated programs based at Prestige University-affiliated university/teaching hospitals

2. Resident physicians in Prestige University-affiliated programs based at Prestige University-affiliated university/teaching hospitals learn from the attending physicians affiliated with Prestige University Medical School (this is academic medicine)

What happens at medical schools that don't have affiliated residency programs and/or university/teaching hospitals? (e.g. Touro, CNU, etc.) Who trains the medical students during their clinical rotations? Residents from other programs, if it's a teaching hospital? Attending physicians, if it's not? (i.e. preceptorship?)

Forgive me; I'm comfortable with hierarchy and organizational charts, so the unconventional? nature of "standalone" medical schools makes my eyebrows furrow.

Thanks in advance for any insights you might offer.

V/R,
4401

 

[Goro]

At my school, students have defined rotation sites away from our campus. Almost all are in our state, a few are out of state. This is true for most COMs, as the vast majority of them don't have teaching hospitals.

MUCOM will make use of Riley and the Catholic hospitals in IN. For residency, we don't have a direct residency program, but that doesn't stop our students. Mine have gone to places in MA, NY, OH, MI CA, NV, KS, TX FL MA...basically, wherever there are ACGME or AOA programs. I'll name drop one: we've sent a grad to the Cleveland Clinic. KCUMB has sent grads to Mayo.

One of my clinical deans told me that CNU poached rotation sites from UCD...this seems to be more common with the newer MD schools. The three new MI schools poached theirs from U MI and MSU, for example.

Students will be precepted on rotations by residents, and/or attendings. The attendings all become Adjunct Professors...and get some training as to what we want and need our students to do by end of OMSIII and IV. The do a good job; residency directors find out grads as well trained as MD grads or any other DO, according to the polls we give them. NOTE: for some rotation sites, and this is true for many COMs, the preceptors are limited to in-office, and so the students essentially just shadow. I remember an DO in AZ student writing bitterly about this in the Osteo forum. Don't know if the school was SOMA or AZCOM.

What happens at medical schools that don't have affiliated residency programs and/or university/teaching hospitals? (e.g. Touro, CNU, etc.) Who trains the medical students during their clinical rotations? Residents from other programs, if it's a teaching hospital? Attending physicians, if it's not? (i.e. preceptorship?)

 

[nRomaleos]

At my school, students have defined rotation sites away from our campus. Almost all are in our state, a few are out of state. This is true for most COMs, as the vast majority of them don't have teaching hospitals.

MUCOM will make use of Riley and the Catholic hospitals in IN. For residency, we don't have a direct residency program, but that doesn't stop our students. Mine have gone to places in MA, NY, OH, MI CA, NV, KS, TX FL MA...basically, wherever there are ACGME or AOA programs. I'll name drop one: we've sent a grad to the Cleveland Clinic. KCUMB has sent grads to Mayo.

One of my clinical deans told me that CNU poached rotation sites from UCD...this seems to be more common with the newer MD schools. The three new MI schools poached theirs from U MI and MSU, for example.

Students will be precepted on rotations by residents, and/or attendings. The attendings all become Adjunct Professors...and get some training as to what we want and need our students to do by end of OMSIII and IV. The do a good job; residency directors find out grads as well trained as MD grads or any other DO, according to the polls we give them. NOTE: for some rotation sites, and this is true for many COMs, the preceptors are limited to in-office, and so the students essentially just shadow. I remember an DO in AZ student writing bitterly about this in the Osteo forum. Don't know if the school was SOMA or AZCOM.

What happens at medical schools that don't have affiliated residency programs and/or university/teaching hospitals? (e.g. Touro, CNU, etc.) Who trains the medical students during their clinical rotations? Residents from other programs, if it's a teaching hospital? Attending physicians, if it's not? (i.e. preceptorship?)

Why would a COM allow clinical rotations to become a glorified shadowing experience?

Is that an indictment of the DO curriculum?

 

[Goro]

No, it's an indictment of hospitals that are litigation-fearful.

I don't think that these are reflective of the majority of COMs, nor the majority of rotation sites either. There are some schools that do seem to be too lazy or cheap to invest in their clinical education.

Why would a COM allow clinical rotations to become a glorified shadowing experience?

Is that an indictment of the DO curriculum?

 

[4401]

At my school, students have defined rotation sites away from our campus. Almost all are in our state, a few are out of state. This is true for most COMs, as the vast majority of them don't have teaching hospitals.

MUCOM will make use of Riley and the Catholic hospitals in IN. For residency, we don't have a direct residency program....Students will be precepted on rotations by residents, and/or attendings. The attendings all become Adjunct Professors...and get some training as to what we want and need our students to do by end of OMSIII and IV. The do a good job; residency directors find out grads as well trained as MD grads or any other DO, according to the polls we give them. NOTE: for some rotation sites, and this is true for many COMs, the preceptors are limited to in-office, and so the students essentially just shadow.

So at Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine (MUCOM) -- since there's no affiliated hospital -- MUCOM medical students will participate in defined rotation sites away from campus, at Riley Hospital for Children (Indiana University-affiliated teaching hospital) or at Catholic hospitals in Indiana (non university-affiliated teaching hospitals). Since Riley has residents (from Indiana University-affiliated programs), MUCOM medical students will learn from said residents. Since the Catholic hospitals have no residents, MUCOM medical students will learn from attending physicians (who become MUCOM adjunct professors).

Is this correct?

///breakbreakbreak///

Do you mind comparing and contrasting?

University of California Davis School of Medicine (UC Davis SOM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_School_of_Medicine#Hospitals

Third year medical students at UC Davis SOM will do clinical rotations at UC Davis-affiliated hospitals, to include:
- UC Davis Medical Center
- UC Davis Children's Hospital
- UC Davis Cancer Center
- Shriners Hospitals for Children-Northern California
- Sacramento VA Medical Center
- Kaiser Permanente Medical Centers in Sacramento, Roseville, and South Sacramento

In sum, UC Davis medical students will be supervised by resident physicians training in UC Davis-affiliated programs, based at UC Davis-affiliated university/teaching hospitals. (This just...makes sense to me.)​

California Northstate University College of Medicine (CNUCOM)
http://medicine.cnsu.edu/education/clinical-clerkshipsb

Two years from now, third year medical students at CNUCOM will do clinical rotations at defined rotation sites away from campus:
- Kaiser Permanente of Northern California (over 900 beds and 1,400 physicians)

- Kaiser North Valley
- Kaiser South Sacramento
- Kaiser Roseville​

- Dignity Health System (over 1,000 beds and 2,100 physicians)

- Mercy General
- Mercy San Juan
- Methodist
- Woodland Memorial​

At the Kaiser hospitals, CNUCOM medical students may be supervised by resident physicians training in UC Davis-affiliated programs, but they may also be supervised by attending physicians. At the Dignity hospitals, CNUCOM medical students will definitely not be supervised by any resident physicians, since UC Davis has no affiliated residency programs based at Dignity hospitals, and because CNUCOM has no affiliated residency programs at all. CNUCOM medical students will instead be supervised by attending physicians, who may or may not (eventually) become adjunct professors at CNUCOM. (This just...seems ad-hoc?)​

Did I get this correct? If so, is the latter system inherently/systematically/fundamentally an inferior teaching process? (Perhaps because attending physicians who didn't necessarily plan to go into academic medicine are now being thrust into the role? Perhaps because there are no residents serving as buffers/intermediaries between medical students and attending physicians? Perhaps because it's...weird? [for lack of a better word] for residents from one program to teach students from another school/university/program?)

 

[Spector1]

OK -- so at Marian University College of Osteopathic Medicine (MUCOM), since there's no affiliated hospital, MUCOM medical students will participate in defined rotation sites away from campus, at Riley Hospital for Children at Indiana University Health (university-affiliated teaching hospital) or at Catholic hospitals in Indiana (non university-affiliated teaching hospital. Since Riley has residents, MUCOM medical students will learn from said residents. Since the Catholic hospitals have no residents, MUCOM medical students will learn from attending physicians (who become adjunct professors).

Is this correct?

///breakbreakbreak///

Do you mind comparing and contrasting?

University of California Davis School of Medicine (UC Davis SOM)

Third year medical students at UC Davis SOM will do clinical rotations at UC Davis-affiliated hospitals, to include:
- UC Davis Medical Center
- UC Davis Children's Hospital
- UC Davis Cancer Center[9]
- Shriners Hospitals for Children-Northern California
- Sacramento VA Medical Center
- Kaiser Permanente Medical Centers in Sacramento, Roseville, and South Sacramento

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_School_of_Medicine#Hospitals

They will be supervised by resident physicians training in UC Davis-affiliated programs, based at UC Davis-affiliated university/teaching hospitals.​

California Northstate University College of Medicine (CNUCOM)

Two years from now, third year medical students at CNUCOM will do clinical rotations at defined rotation sites away from campus:
- Kaiser Permanente of Northern California (over 900 beds and 1,400 physicians)
- Kaiser North Valley
- Kaiser South Sacramento
- Kaiser Roseville
- Dignity Health System (over 1,000 beds and 2,100 physicians)
- Mercy General
- Mercy San Juan
- Methodist
- Woodland Memorial

http://medicine.cnsu.edu/education/clinical-clerkshipsb​

At the Kaiser hospitals, they may be supervised by resident physicians training in UC Davis-affiliated programs, but they may also be supervised by attending physicians. At the Dignity hospitals, they will definitely not be supervised by any resident physicians, since UC Davis has no affiliated residency programs based at Dignity hospitals, and because CNUCOM has no affiliated residency programs at all. They will be supervised, instead, by attending physicians, who may or may not (eventually) become adjunct professors at CNUCOM.​

Did I get this correct? If so, is the latter system inherently/systematically/fundamentally an inferior teaching process? (Perhaps because attending physicians who didn't necessarily plan to go into academic medicine are now being thrust into the role? Perhaps because there are no residents serving as buffers/intermediaries between medical students and attending physicians?)

Kaiser sacramento has residents

 

[Hyde]

)

Am I getting this right? You want a Do Adcom to compare 2 M.D. programs? Weird.

 

[LLCoolK]

Am I getting this right? You want a Do Adcom to compare 2 M.D. programs? Weird.

doesn't mean Goro doesn't have experience interacting with/working with MD programs. clinical rotations are identical in both DO and MD schools, aside from OMM rotations. he is one of the biggest contributors of WAMC? MD/DO threads, and have helped posters here a lot. I might not have even applied to the MD school I am attending this fall if it wasn't for Goro. Both DO and MD are obviously very similar, anyone can tell you that.

 

[Hyde]

doesn't mean Goro doesn't have experience interacting with/working with MD programs.

Just as allopathic adcoms would likely refer questions about specific osteopathic med schools' programs to Goro, I'm guessing the opposite would be true if someone had questions about specific allopathic med schools' programs, no?

 

[Gandyy]

Am I getting this right? You want a Do Adcom to compare 2 M.D. programs? Weird.

Man, all your posts exude an extremely elite attitude.

You are the guy that thinks MCAT and GPA are the only important things in med school admissions right?

 

[Goro]

Who are you addressing that to, Gandy?

Man, all your posts exude an extremely elite attitude.

You are the guy that thinks MCAT and GPA are the only important things in med school admissions right?

 

[Verbatim Disk]

Man, all your posts exude an extremely elite attitude.

Seriously. Glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

 

[Gandyy]

Who are you addressing that to, Gandy?

To Hyde. He has made the claim that the only important thing, in his not so humble opinion, in medical school admissions is the MCAT and GPA or at least that it should be.

He would have medical school admissions solely determine your applicant candidacy by your MCAT and GPA.

No interview, EC's etc.

 

[Goro]

Oh, that. I have him on ignore.

To Hyde. He has made the claim that the only important thing, in his not so humble opinion, in medical school admissions is the MCAT and GPA or at least that it should be.

He would have medical school admissions solely determine your applicant candidacy by your MCAT and GPA.

No interview, EC's etc.

 

[Hyde]

To Hyde. He has made the claim that the only important thing, in his not so humble opinion, in medical school admissions is the MCAT and GPA or at least that it should be.

He would have medical school admissions solely determine your applicant candidacy by your MCAT and GPA.

No interview, EC's etc.

Sorry for your recent bad news but I don't think it justifies your taking out your frustrations on me personally nor does it excuse your rudeness in putting words in my mouth. Good luck with your other applications. But fyi I don't think it's a smart idea for you to bitterly dismiss the importance of the MCAT exams or associate it with "elitist" thinking, especially in interviews if/when you are asked about your score. There's a reason that top+mid tier ranked allopathic schools place a lot of importance on MCAT scores+GPA and it's because those 2 items, particularly MCAT scores, are predictors of med school students successfully completing med school within a 4 year window and passing the USMLE board exams first try, and those latter board exam scores in turn relate to placement in competitive and very competitive residencies. It costs a heck of a lot of $ to train med school students - that's why med schools continue to place a good deal of emphasis on predictors (except for certain cases) - to avoid risk . The importance of board exam scores are not going to go away even after being accepted to medical school, so instead of flaming me, face reality and do your best on board exams in the future. Again, good luck this cycle.