If you think profit/non-profit status is what differentiates the schools "driven" by cash then you have a lot to learn. The entire healthcare industry is money driven period.
California Northstate gains Accreditation
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I've heard about that one and that it's going nowhere fast.
They'll probably end up with Touro-CA rejects.
"GPA and MCAT Requirements: California Northstate University College of Medicine requires a minimum GPA of 2.8 and traditional MCAT score of 24 to be considered for admission."
That's going to hurt.
"CNUCOM is in the process of applying to the U.S. Department of Education for participation in Federal Student Aid programs. Until this process is complete and the U.S. Department of Education indicates CNUCOM to be eligible to participate in Federal Student Aid programs, we will be unable to provide students with Federal Student Aid, which includes Federal Direct Loans, Federal Graduate PLUS Loans, Federal Work-Study benefits, etc."
Y'know, when I first heard about this school, I toyed with the idea of applying for a faculty job there. Mrs Goro would like the proximity to Napa and Sonoma. I'll pass.
They'll probably end up with Touro-CA rejects.
"GPA and MCAT Requirements: California Northstate University College of Medicine requires a minimum GPA of 2.8 and traditional MCAT score of 24 to be considered for admission."
That's going to hurt.
"CNUCOM is in the process of applying to the U.S. Department of Education for participation in Federal Student Aid programs. Until this process is complete and the U.S. Department of Education indicates CNUCOM to be eligible to participate in Federal Student Aid programs, we will be unable to provide students with Federal Student Aid, which includes Federal Direct Loans, Federal Graduate PLUS Loans, Federal Work-Study benefits, etc."
Y'know, when I first heard about this school, I toyed with the idea of applying for a faculty job there. Mrs Goro would like the proximity to Napa and Sonoma. I'll pass.
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I think the students need to borrow private loans, pretty typical for new schools
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?
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Still a terrible deal! Higher interest rates, worse payback schemes and/or lack of forgiveness programs, not to mention weird stuff like debt that's not discharged when the student dies, and the parents who co-signed on the loan are stuck paying it back.
Why in the world would anyone want to go to this school? It's reminiscent of the Caribbean...
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So at the risk of sounding ignorant...
it's a real school? What does being accredited mean? I thought all medical schools are supposed to be standardized in education and deliver sufficient education to its students? What's the risk with this school?
it's a real school? What does being accredited mean? I thought all medical schools are supposed to be standardized in education and deliver sufficient education to its students? What's the risk with this school?
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Does anyone have any idea when this application will open? Or whether we need the 2015 or 2016 AMCAS to apply for Fall 2015 entry?
They plan to ramp up to 265 students by 2017. Why not a cool 1,000? More students, more money right? Disgusting. Medical school is one of the last bastions of upward mobility through education in this country, and it is slowly eroding partly thanks to the attitude and greed of people who put schools together like this.
This is due to federal regulations. All newly accredited medical school could not receive federal loans. Western Michigan was just accredited and is recruiting their 2nd medical school class, and also no student attending there could receive any fed loans, only private loans.
http://med.wmich.edu/education/students/future-students/your-finances-and-financial-aid
That's a good point. But sometimes you can find private loans with lower interest rates than fed loans' 6-7% interest rates, so if the payment scheme is reasonable, it doesn't hurt to look around for private loans for lower interest rates.
All MD schools in US must be accredited by LCME to legally recruit med students and award MD degrees. LCME approve med schools by requiring schools to meet certain standards and requirements.
http://www.lcme.org/directory.htm
I'm not sure, but I'm assuming you apply by AMCAS 2015 if AMCAS can change their system in time. If not, it sounds like you apply with CNUSOM's application directly.
From their website:
Fall 2015 Entry Class, please apply now using CNUCOM Application Portal! (Please check daily for the link)
Timeline:
Timeline for CNUCOM Fall 2015 Entry Class
June 12, 2015
AMCAS application submission begins (Pending)
July 1, 2015
CNUCOM Supplemental application opens
So does anyone know if one has been admitted to an MD school, and it is past May 15 when students must hold acceptance to only 1 med school, the student can still apply to CNUSOM and obtain another acceptance from CNUSOM?
Would that be against AAMC rules?
I thought you can because ppl with an acceptance but got accepted off waitlist after May 15 to a 2nd school can still choose to attend the 2nd school?
Would that be against AAMC rules?
I thought you can because ppl with an acceptance but got accepted off waitlist after May 15 to a 2nd school can still choose to attend the 2nd school?
I can't see why you couldn't apply I mean it would be similar to someone who has an acceptance getting off the waitlist at their top school.
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Is it showing up on anyone's amcas?
No looks like they won't be on AMCAS this year. They are talking about doing direct applications on the webpage.
Not my 2015 AMCAS. Can't even add any med school now.
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Thank you for the info! This was not on the website when I checked earlier today
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You can bash this MD program/school all you want. But I know these facts are true, scream if you think it is not:
1) I don't care if they only accept 60 people in 3 months; they can easily fill a class of 300 students in 3 months if they want too. It is CA that we talk about, they can pop another 10 more MD schools in CA; it is still not enough for the overpopulation of premed in this state.
2) They will have thousands of applications in a matter of couple months (from all the MD rejects and DO students who is still gunning for that MD initials)
3) The competition is still as fierce for those interviews/acceptances this september; I would guess 3.5 sGPA and 30 MCAT for beginning bids. You can imagine how many CA premed dying to stay close; that is not to mention OOS folks.
Sorry I just have to point out reality; no matter how harsh it is; I still prefer it over fantasy.
1) I don't care if they only accept 60 people in 3 months; they can easily fill a class of 300 students in 3 months if they want too. It is CA that we talk about, they can pop another 10 more MD schools in CA; it is still not enough for the overpopulation of premed in this state.
2) They will have thousands of applications in a matter of couple months (from all the MD rejects and DO students who is still gunning for that MD initials)
3) The competition is still as fierce for those interviews/acceptances this september; I would guess 3.5 sGPA and 30 MCAT for beginning bids. You can imagine how many CA premed dying to stay close; that is not to mention OOS folks.
Sorry I just have to point out reality; no matter how harsh it is; I still prefer it over fantasy.
I agree with all of your points, but I still hope you are wrong. I grew up not too far away from this school and would not have applied even if tuition was free.
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None of these points make the school seem like less of a **** sandwich.
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So I suppose the consensus here is to not apply? I'm sitting on a waitlist and thought since this is pretty close to me it's worth applying for this year. I don't mind financing through private lenders, but I refuse to go anywhere that won't provide me a quality education. For-profit is also rather frightening...
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Again, if you think the federal tax designation of being a 501(c)(3) organization has anything to do with whether schools/hospitals are motivated by profit or money, that's just naive. The biggest risk with Northstate now is not that it is "for-profit" or not, but whether they actually have the teaching resources to provide decent clinical education (preclinical is a non-issue, I'd argue; just find some basic science profs and boom. Plus, some top schools have ****ty teachers anyway so it's not a big difference) in 2 years. Do they actually have good terms with hospitals for med students to rotate at? Do the attendings there actually want to teach people? These are the questions that should be focused on, not the tax designation status that determines whether shareholders of the school can get some money in their pockets (ICYMI, "non-profit" administrators pocket tons of money every year, as would an investor/shareholder of Northstate if they choose to pay them).
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Yeah, that too! =D I wasn't implying I knew anything about the difference between the two, just that nearly everyone in this thread made it seem daunting. I apologize for going with the flow.
I think this is an absurd statement.
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How so? Because 501(c)(3) is an angel designation that wins the heart and worthy trust of all altruistic premeds, med students, and physicians?
All 501(c)(3) means is that the profits turned by the organization cannot be distributed to shareholders and must be "recycled" into the operating budget of the next year, but it doesn't prevent administrators from taking a large chunk of it out as part of their salaries/compensation packages (i.e., this is what all med school and hospitals administrators do). Every organization needs to be motivated by money, no matter how altruistic the mission. "No margin, no mission." You can't run a hospital and treat uninsured patients if you're broke (e.g., see all past decade Catholic hospital bankruptcies; it doesn't last).
Northstate would only be adversely impacted by the for-profit designation if their shareholders started to demand changes that would affect the delivery of medical education...in which case the LCME's gonna step in at a certain point and require that their quality measures are still met. We can argue about how much of a possibility/factor the shareholders (if there are any) will be in the structuring of the organization, but the lack of a 501(c)(3) designation really doesn't scream bloody murder as most people would like to think. It's just a different model that more often than not has a higher risk of putting students in the backseat. But (c)(3) organizations do their own fair share of nebulous activities, so let's not take a moral high ground and pretend like being for-profit is the end of the world. It isn't. But it could be, just like any other non-profit organization.
TL;DR – Northstate is a ****ty deal as it stands now, but not because it is simply a "for-profit" school. It's the other stuff that makes it pretty bad for anyone to attend.
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They have support from some of the big health systems in the area, I believe. I personally wouldn't apply here, but don't necessarily thinks its a bad a idea for someone with low stats who's eager to stay in California.
Let's just say that for Northstate's 2015 matriculants, the competition has never been easier. For some, this may be their only chance at a US MD.
Northstate's press release attached.
Let's just say that for Northstate's 2015 matriculants, the competition has never been easier. For some, this may be their only chance at a US MD.
Northstate's press release attached.
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I own a 501(c)(3) corporation and I'd just like to expand on this a bit. The 501(c)(3) designation (at least in my state) prevents any employees/members from receiving raises or additional compensation beyond a salary which has to be preset each year given by my state's guidelines on "reasonable compensation" (And they're actually decently proportional to overall profits, my board of directors can only pocket ~5% of the profits each and standard employees can account for another ~15% max). So this means that non-profit medical schools must use the remaining budget for their students and facilities. Although they still wish to make more money, their salary increases at a marginal rate compared to overall income and cannot exceed the cap set by the state and that figure cannot increase if they make more at the end of the year than expected. But now we look at for profit schools, and just as The Real SVB said, they can pay dividends to shareholders and hand out raises as desired. Now greed is a risk factor in the student's education, and that's never a good thing to have.
If we did some (extremely rough) calculations:
Assume a school has 600 students between all four classes. The average tuition over four years is 25,000/yr when averaging IS and OOS. So now the school has $15,000,000 in gross profit (Likely to be higher due to donations and other sources of income, but I'm keeping it simple here). Let's say $500,000 goes to expenses such as electricity, water, cadavers, etc. (Likely an overestimate) and leaves $14.5M in net profit. Now lets assume 6 members are classified as "Board Directors" and each take home 5% of profits (4.35M divided between them). So a total of $10.15M left in the budget. You now have $2.175M (15% of 14.5M, percentage can heavily vary by state) left to pay the remaining employees which should be very plausible (This part I'm unsure about, as average salary for "Professor of Medicine is 142,000" but I'd imagine that number can be reduced by hiring attendings who don't primarily teach). So the medical school has $7.975M left in the bank. If you're a 501(c)(3) school, this all has to be invested into research, facility improvements, student education, etc. If you're a for profit school, and share holders are looking at $8M cash, they're more likely to say "Ehh who needs that extra student lounge/pathoma subscriptions for students/one of the PhD researchers who doesn't have very promising results yet when we deserve that extra 1M from our investments." It can also increase desire to raise tuition more so than non profit schools because they can pocket more.
Adcoms on here will probably laugh at my terrible estimate of medical school financials, but I just used it as an example of how greed+massive gross income should not be a factor in a student's education.
Tl;Dr When dealing with several millions of dollars, for profit schools can take however much they want as long as minimum accreditation standards are met. Greed + massive gross income is a risk factor in student's education as it encourages the school to barely maintain minimum standards and pocket the rest between executives and shareholders rather than reinvesting in research, facilities, etc.
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That's assuming that reinvesting in research, facilities, etc is against their own self-interest somehow, when it clearly isn't.
No to go all capitalist on yah, but businesses usually do reinvest in themselves; the ones that stay in business in a competitive market, that is.
(This isn't an invitation to debate capitalism, just pointing something out)
So no, I don't think that Northstate is going to swindle all that tuition money; they are fighting an uphill battle in terms of respect and prestige, which directly affect their business prospects, if nothing else. You can't really compare Northstate to some dinky for-profit diploma mill because their respective competition is quite different, and Northstate's likelihood of success will be dependent on their residency placements, which will be dependent, at least in part, on their reputation and ability to competently deliver education and training.
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So I see they have their interview portal open for Fall 2015 matriculation.
As a CA applicant with a risky application for 2016 matriculation, do I (we) apply here?
The application is $125 including primary and secondary. I have been evaluating the pros and cons and cannot decide what to do. I am heavily leaning towards no, mainly because of the need for all private loans.
As a CA applicant with a risky application for 2016 matriculation, do I (we) apply here?
The application is $125 including primary and secondary. I have been evaluating the pros and cons and cannot decide what to do. I am heavily leaning towards no, mainly because of the need for all private loans.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah... I get it -- no financial aid, for-profit, questionable education. But none of that scares me more than THIS on the their homepage:
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An advantage of ACGME/LCME accreditation is that it completely obliterates for-profit MD schools from existing (For-profit DO schools however....).
And yet we have a rogue passing through. This won't last long.
Well would you look at that?
Why is medical education even a commodity in the first place? I entirely blame for-profit DO schools like Rocky Vista for contributing to this problem.
The Caribbean forum on SDN answers your question
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How so
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I completely agree with you. I think the greed is a small risk factor, but not a guaranteed "We're going to pocket all of the money and keep minimum accreditation standards" that many people believe it will be. I was using my example to point out that 501(c)(3) schools are forced to reinvest and that is a much better alternative than reinvesting as desired. Especially in a state that is over-saturated with medical applicants desperate for a chance at an MD. Basically pessimists will say education quality will sacrifice due to greed (Although not nearly as much as Caribbean schools due to Northstate requiring LCME cred), optimists will side with you, and I'm sitting on the fence waiting to see how Northstate plays their cards.
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Its pharmacy school has not become a joke...yet. I have no reason to suspect that its med school would also not become a joke. (double negative ftw)
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Circular reasoning time (apologies @gettheleadout and the brilliant logical fallacy link).
Have you ever seen an accredited for-profit MD school prior to Northstate? The reason why they're absent is that the accreditation process is excellent and minimizes/eradicates all errors
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Doesn't that parse out to "I suspect the med school would become a joke", though?
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Fixed that for you.
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Yah ok fineFixed that for you.
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California's tanked economy will likely appreciate that tax revenue, though!
*cries for home state*
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You're only a reapp where you apply...I don't think other schools would even see that you had applied anywhere before unless they ask on their secondary.
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Curious if we could apply for the 2015 term, and the 2016 through AMCAS at the same time.
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Is it possible that an LCME accredited school will be viewed as a carribean school for residency purposes?
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From my understanding, the real reason no MD for-profits existed prior to Northstate was because one of the LCME accreditation standards was that the school be a non-profit. This standard was deleted in 2013 and look we now have an accredited for-profit school.Circular reasoning time (apologies @gettheleadout and the brilliant logical fallacy link).
Have you ever seen an accredited for-profit MD school prior to Northstate? The reason why they're absent is that the accreditation process is excellent and minimizes/eradicates all errors
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60 -> 265 in 1-2 years????? That's outright irresponsible. They'll have to get LCME approval for such an increase.
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I'm applying
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They don't even have a working phone number...
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Nah, it'll be fine! They just won't have clinical spots for 90% of their class. I mean, that's not a big deal, right? ........r-right?
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