California Northstate

[Sourgrapesss]

aw man this was my first choice!!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[786doctor]

.Same #twinsies

lol

 

[bear2roo]

That's tough to say. Even if you were to decide which one is in a better position, you've added so many variables to the equation that you wouldn't know if the reason one has the advantage over the other is because of Step1 score, differences in quality of LoR, or school attended.

Fair enough. What about an equal stats student CNU vs AUC

 

[allantois]

Fair enough. What about an equal stats student CNU vs AUC

This does not even deserve a comparison. There is at the very least Rocky Vista, a for-profit osteopathic school, where everyone matches into residency. Caribbean schools don't even have a 50% match.

 

[goldy490]

Literally they have only one teaching faculty member with a US MD Degree. Not throwing the school out (There are plenty of great international professors out there), but I'm not sure how comfortable I am being taught by someone who get their medical degree in Kazakhstan...

 

[786doctor]

Literally they have only one teaching faculty member with a US MD Degree. Not throwing the school out (There are plenty of great international professors out there), but I'm not sure how comfortable I am being taught by someone who get their medical degree in Kazakhstan...
View attachment 193450

Hey hey hey, I counted at least 3! lol.
But seriously, even though a bunch of the faculty are not US trained, a lot of them seem to have decent experience/merits it seems. Example, the doctor from Kazakhstan "was a founding Director of Foundations of Medicine course, Director of Endocrine/Reproduction course, and Director of Standardized Patient program at Florida Atlantic University College of Medicine." I'm not saying she should be put up for a nobel prize now lol but certainly I don't think just because you are not US MD trained that you are unfit to be a professor. That being said, I have no idea how good these peoples backgrounds are compared to professors at other medical schools

 

[gyngyn]

Hey hey hey, I counted at least 3! lol.
But seriously, even though a bunch of the faculty are not US trained, a lot of them seem to have decent experience/merits it seems. Example, the doctor from Kazakhstan "was a founding Director of Foundations of Medicine course, Director of Endocrine/Reproduction course, and Director of Standardized Patient program at Florida Atlantic University College of Medicine." I'm not saying she should be put up for a nobel prize now lol but certainly I don't think just because you are not US MD trained that you are unfit to be a professor. That being said, I have no idea how good these peoples backgrounds are compared to professors at other medical schools

I do.

 

[SoonToBeDrG]

I do.

And the comparison conclusion is the CNU faculty are no bueno, yes?

 

[Sourgrapesss]

Literally they have only one teaching faculty member with a US MD Degree. Not throwing the school out (There are plenty of great international professors out there), but I'm not sure how comfortable I am being taught by someone who get their medical degree in Kazakhstan...
View attachment 193450

Racist..

 

[gyngyn]

And the comparison conclusion is the CNU faculty are no bueno, yes?

I wouldn't start a department or even a division with this faculty and resources, much less a medical school.
Any one of them might be a good teacher, but there are some serious deficiencies here for the scope necessary to provide the support for 50 students. I was completely sure that they wouldn't achieve preliminary accreditation when I reviewed their website last year.

If Baylor is on probation, how could this faculty and facilities be approved, even preliminarily?

 

[northernlights15]

I wouldn't start a department or even a division with this faculty and resources, much less a medical school.
Any one of them might be a good teacher, but there are some serious deficiencies here for the scope necessary to provide the support for 50 students. I was completely sure that they wouldn't achieve preliminary accreditation when I reviewed their website last year.

If Baylor is on probation, how could this faculty and facilities be approved, even preliminarily?

Seems fishy...

 

[Goro]

As a fellow Faculty member, I don't think that SDNers really grasp how damning the wise gyngyn's words really are!

And CNU wants to go from 50 to 250+ in two years!!!!

Being a NYer, I wouldn't be surprised if money changed hands in their accreditation process.

I wouldn't start a department or even a division with this faculty and resources, much less a medical school.
Any one of them might be a good teacher, but there are some serious deficiencies here for the scope necessary to provide the support for 50 students. I was completely sure that they wouldn't achieve preliminary accreditation when I reviewed their website last year.

If Baylor is on probation, how could this faculty and facilities be approved, even preliminarily?

 

[northernlights15]

As a fellow Faculty member, I don't think that SDNers really grasp how damning the wise gyngyn's words really are!

And CNU wants to go from 50 to 250+ in two years!!!!

Being a NYer, I wouldn't be surprised if money changed hands in their accreditation process.

I don't think the LCME would accept bribes though...

 

[Goro]

It didn't stop hospital administrators from giving rotation slots away to Carib diploma mills.

I don't think the LCME would accept bribes though...

 

[allantois]

I wouldn't start a department or even a division with this faculty and resources, much less a medical school.
Any one of them might be a good teacher, but there are some serious deficiencies here for the scope necessary to provide the support for 50 students. I was completely sure that they wouldn't achieve preliminary accreditation when I reviewed their website last year.

If Baylor is on probation, how could this faculty and facilities be approved, even preliminarily?

WesternU in OR had 15 faculty members for a class of 100+ DO students, which have just graduated..
It is not immediately clear, upon looking at their website, how many faculty they have now for 400+ students, but it does not seem like much. I do not think that this faculty to student ratio is unique to this particular school, either.

 

[786doctor]

As a fellow Faculty member, I don't think that SDNers really grasp how damning the wise gyngyn's words really are!

And CNU wants to go from 50 to 250+ in two years!!!!

Being a NYer, I wouldn't be surprised if money changed hands in their accreditation process.

Wait what? They want to go from 60 to 250+??! I feel like I've read this before on this thread. Is this on their site? I guess for them it's as simple as demand and supply lol

It seems they have one building, and that too is shared with the college of pharmacy. Surely, they would need to build more facilities to accommodate more students, and hire more faculty.

 

[Ronaldihno517]

Those schools had US trained faculty members with ties to their specialty communities.

How important are faculty connections in terms of students from a particular medical school being competitive for residency match? I'd imagine this first class at Cal Northstate wouldn't be cream of the crop, but what if a student matriculated and was a very independent, self-studier and did well on the steps? That student wouldn't have to deal with anti-DO bias and would the for-profit status really be that much of a handicap, would most hospital administrators even know it's a for-profit school?

Basically, would a student who flourished at this school be at a great disadvantage even if they did well against the odds?

It didn't stop hospital administrators from giving rotation slots away to Carib diploma mills.

Forgive me if I'm being naive. I know American medical schools trump Caribbean schools, but don't the Carib graduates who match into US residency have to meet the same standards as US MD's, if not do better on the steps to be considered for the same residency spots?

 

[goldy490]

It's a gray area some of the adcoms or senior members could explain better than me, but my understanding is that the Carib schools make tons of money, which they then use to pay for residency slots back in the US. There was a recent article about this happening in New York, where people were up in arms because the wealthy Caribbean schools were basically paying to insert less qualified residents into programs and elbowing the NY educated residents out of spots. They still have to be at the top of their Carib class and score very well to get those spots, but the argument is that they are still less qualified since they did get training at a US school with LCME accreditation.

 

[Goro]

You're correct, but I was referring to 3rd/4th year rotation sites.

Forgive me if I'm being naive. I know American medical schools trump Caribbean schools, but don't the Carib graduates who match into US residency have to meet the same standards as US MD's, if not do better on the steps to be considered for the same residency spots?[/QUOTE]

 

[gyngyn]

How important are faculty connections in terms of students from a particular medical school being competitive for residency match?

Very important.

 

[gyngyn]

WesternU in OR had 15 faculty members for a class of 100+ DO students, which have just graduated..
It is not immediately clear, upon looking at their website, how many faculty they have now for 400+ students, but it does not seem like much. I do not think that this faculty to student ratio is unique to this particular school, either.

It's not just the number, it's the depth and breadth of experience.

 

[jaxon]

California Northstate University College of Medicine started its first class this Fall 2015 semester. Most accepted students coming from California (UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc) with a few coming from other notable schools such as BYU Provo, MIT, and more. Average MCAT score of accepted students over 34 and only 60 students were accepted. Currently accepting applicants for the 2016 cycle through AMCAS!

lol.

 

[Med Ed]

California Northstate University College of Medicine started its first class this Fall 2015 semester. Most accepted students coming from California (UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc) with a few coming from other notable schools such as BYU Provo, MIT, and more. Average MCAT score of accepted students over 34 and only 60 students were accepted. Currently accepting applicants for the 2016 cycle through AMCAS!

So you guys filled your class with high stat leftovers. Sounds like a recipe for mopping up sociopaths and weirdos. I heard LCME is furious that you guys decided to seat a class this year instead of next. I'm sure that will make obtaining provisional accreditation a breeze!

Congrats on bringing the Everest/U of Phoenix model to allopathic medical education in the United States. That is truly a remarkable feat, and something to be extremely proud of.

 

[wasteofspace323]

So you guys filled your class with high stat leftovers. Sounds like a recipe for mopping up sociopaths and weirdos. I heard LCME is furious that you guys decided to seat a class this year instead of next. I'm sure that will make obtaining provisional accreditation a breeze!

Congrats on bringing the Everest/U of Phoenix model to allopathic medical education in the United States. That is truly a remarkable feat, and something to be extremely proud of.

So professional

*swoons*

 

[Gastrapathy]

High stat leftovers. Sounds like the right group from which to pick your students. Attacking the students is shameful. It's the faculty participating in this ruse who deserve shame.

 

[Med Ed]

High stat leftovers. Sounds like the right group from which to pick your students.

Um, sometimes they are leftovers for a reason. The rest could be referred to, charitably, as impatient. Suffice to say there is a valid counterpoint to what @cnucom is spreading around.

Attacking the students is shameful. It's the faculty participating in this ruse who deserve shame.

Just because they are students does not get them entirely off the hook. The school may be predatory, but without complicit prey the enterprise will not function.

 

[Med Ed]

So professional

*swoons*

While I fancy myself the Lenny Bruce of verified SDN members, I cede that I am probably much closer to dirty Bob Saget.

 

[WingedOx]

I don't think the LCME would accept bribes though...

One half of the LCME is based in Chicago after all... The other half is based in DC. They learn from the best.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Charitably? no. Do you honestly believe that the last 1000 accepted students are a better qualified group than the first 1000 rejected students? You'd be wrong. And they only had to find 60 of those. They are undoubtedly better qualified than the bottom 60 students accepted to allopathic schools. Or do you believe your process is perfect?

Blame the sketchy school, the coward LCME but not the kids with dreams.

 

[Med Ed]

Do you honestly believe that the last 1000 accepted students are a better qualified group than the first 1000 rejected students? You'd be wrong. And they only had to find 60 of those. They are undoubtedly better qualified than the bottom 60 students accepted to allopathic schools. Or do you believe your process is perfect?

My concerns specifically relate to the fact that CNUCOM opened its application season mere weeks before the start of school, and (allegedly) sat a class with an MCAT average of 34. That is a highly unusual situation, and the results do not suggest the sort of sober, reflective admissions process we strive for in this highly imperfect world. Especially when you have someone on here shilling for the school a few months into the academic year.

Blame the sketchy school, the coward LCME but not the kids with dreams.

I believe you wanted to blame the faculty earlier in this thread, but they are just trying to put food on the table and get a grant or two. The kids just have dreams. The administration just wants to serve society by educating more physicians. The LCME doesn't want to be dragged into prolonged litigation regarding for-profit medical schools that it will likely lose. See? No one is really to blame for this monstrosity, everyone involved is being completely rational. How tidy!

The truth is that everyone bears some blame for this overt regression to a pre-Flexner model of entrepreneurial medical education. That includes the students, who either had a failed 2014-15 admissions cycle and/or did not want to start the 2015-16 cycle. They are the ones funneling $3.2 million/class into this operation. Let's see how quickly enrollment increases.

 

[Gastrapathy]

The reason the LCME exists is to provide a standard. Either this meets their standard or they aren't willing to hold to it and would prefer just to sit back and collect money. If either of those are the case, then why should they exist? As for the "food on the table" argument ala Latrell Sprewell, a physician who can't make a living in America should never be in charge of teaching students. The students have a choice between taking a subpar education or maybe never being a doctor.

 

[jaxon]

The students have a choice between taking a subpar education or maybe never being a doctor.

Or perhaps just waiting a year to fix their application?

 

[Spector1]

lol.

where is the original post from cnucom that you guys were quoting? I can't seem to find it in the thread. Did they delete it?

 

[jaxon]

where is the original post from cnucom that you guys were quoting? I can't seem to find it in the thread. Did they delete it?

"California Northstate University College of Medicine started its first class this Fall 2015 semester. Most accepted students coming from California (UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc) with a few coming from other notable schools such as BYU Provo, MIT, and more. Average MCAT score of accepted students over 34 and only 60 students were accepted. Currently accepting applicants for the 2016 cycle through AMCAS!"

That's more or less the meat of it, I think.

 

[SoCalPipeDreamer]

You will have to take out private loans. Not worth it IMO.

On the topic of private loans, if your or your guarantor's credit score are good it's not uncommon to get a private loan at a fixed rate that is more competitive than the federal variable rate of 6.something%

 

[Spector1]

"California Northstate University College of Medicine started its first class this Fall 2015 semester. Most accepted students coming from California (UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCLA, USC, Stanford, etc) with a few coming from other notable schools such as BYU Provo, MIT, and more. Average MCAT score of accepted students over 34 and only 60 students were accepted. Currently accepting applicants for the 2016 cycle through AMCAS!"

That's more or less the meat of it, I think.

I saw the quoted text. I am just wondering where the actual post from @cnucom went? Did they delete it?

 

[jaxon]

Did they delete it?

Ah yea, I think so. Also curious why @cnucom didn't also include GPA averages along with the prima facie impressive MCAT averages.

 

[WingedOx]

On the topic of private loans, if your or your guarantor's credit score are good it's not uncommon to get a private loan at a fixed rate that is more competitive than the federal variable rate of 6.something%

Plus it's the case with any new school. A more reputable place like Western Michigan et al. would have the same issues.

 

[Spector1]

I heard LCME is furious that you guys decided to seat a class this year instead of next. I'm sure that will make obtaining provisional accreditation a breeze!

That's interesting to hear. I had assumed that they had obtained LCME's blessing to start for the fall 2015 but if they had not, it certainly sounds unwise to step on LCME's toes while still in provisional accreditation. Is there any source for this?

 

[claduva94]

On the topic of private loans, if your or your guarantor's credit score are good it's not uncommon to get a private loan at a fixed rate that is more competitive than the federal variable rate of 6.something%

Yes but they also aren't eligible for deferment or forgiveness most of the time.

 

[Med Ed]

That's interesting to hear. I had assumed that they had obtained LCME's blessing to start for the fall 2015 but if they had not, it certainly sounds unwise to step on LCME's toes while still in provisional accreditation. Is there any source for this?

I do not have a source, per se, but if you want to dig you can search lcme.org to see when the new schools have been accredited, and then look at when they seat their first classes. From FSU up to now they all follow an established pattern: they have a site visit, they receive preliminary accreditation, they plug into AMCAS and finish a regular application cycle, and sit their first class the following year. Even the late comers who did not receive preliminary accreditation until October did not have a class show up until 10 months later.

Northstate decided it couldn't wait. The school received preliminary accreditation on June 9, and held its white coat ceremony 88 days later. I do not even think they had time to arrange federal loans for their students. I would be extremely surprised if the LCME does not go back there with a fine tooth comb and a strong desire to pick that place apart.

I invite you to read the 1910 Flexner report on medical education in the United States, because it feels like we're on the verge of going back in time: http://archive.carnegiefoundation.org/pdfs/elibrary/Carnegie_Flexner_Report.pdf

 

[Med Ed]

The reason the LCME exists is to provide a standard. Either this meets their standard or they aren't willing to hold to it and would prefer just to sit back and collect money. If either of those are the case, then why should they exist?

This issue isn't merely the standard, its the timing. In this case the LCME granted preliminary accreditation under the assumption that Northstate would do what everyone else has done and spend the subsequent 10-14 months finishing preparations for its charter class. Instead the jammed 60 students into place in less than 3 months. That's a big problem and a huge red flag for the next site visit.

As for the "food on the table" argument ala Latrell Sprewell, a physician who can't make a living in America should never be in charge of teaching students.

I should have been more clear that I was referring to PhD faculty. I have perused the current faculty list and would be curious to see how many of the sixteen MD-bearing faculty in Medical Education are part-time or on final approach for retirement.

The students have a choice between taking a subpar education or maybe never being a doctor.

What jaxon said.

 

[Spector1]

I do not have a source, per se, but if you want to dig you can search lcme.org to see when the new schools have been accredited, and then look at when they seat their first classes. From FSU up to now they all follow an established pattern: they have a site visit, they receive preliminary accreditation, they plug into AMCAS and finish a regular application cycle, and sit their first class the following year. Even the late comers who did not receive preliminary accreditation until October did not have a class show up until 10 months later.

Northstate decided it couldn't wait. The school received preliminary accreditation on June 9, and held its white coat ceremony 88 days later. I do not even think they had time to arrange federal loans for their students. I would be extremely surprised if the LCME does not go back there with a fine tooth comb and a strong desire to pick that place apart.

I invite you to read the 1910 Flexner report on medical education in the United States, because it feels like we're on the verge of going back in time: http://archive.carnegiefoundation.org/pdfs/elibrary/Carnegie_Flexner_Report.pdf

has LCME ever revoked preliminary accreditation?

 

[Med Ed]

has LCME ever revoked preliminary accreditation?

The only school in recent history to lose its accreditation was San Juan Batista in Puerto Rico. It eventually got it back after a messy legal fight with the LCME, but a lot of damage was done in the process.

Among the new schools, Commonwealth is the undisputed champion in terms of accreditation problems. They managed to come off probation and achieve full accreditation, but not before burning through a lot of money, good will, and a number of Deans.

Given its for-profit status and the immediate shenanigans with admitting a class, this business with Northstate is uncharted territory in many ways.

 

[Gastrapathy]

What jaxon said.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Just "fix"their application. Easy. Or...maybe they have enough insight to realize that they will be marginal candidates next year and that there is a decent chance that this is their only opportunity to be a physician. The school is accredited but these students are supposed to perform their own evaluation and determine that it doesn't meet the standard? I don't suppose you'll write each of the them a check for the lifetime lost income.

 

[WingedOx]

The only school in recent history to lose its accreditation was San Juan Batista in Puerto Rico. It eventually got it back after a messy legal fight with the LCME, but a lot of damage was done in the process.

Among the new schools, Commonwealth is the undisputed champion in terms of accreditation problems. They managed to come off probation and achieve full accreditation, but not before burning through a lot of money, good will, and a number of Deans.

Given its for-profit status and the immediate shenanigans with admitting a class, this business with Northstate is uncharted territory in many ways.

Back when Commonwealth was founded I was really skeptical of the LCME's decision. Not because I didn't think it would be a fine school someday, but because IIRC they still hadn't finalized where students were going to be doing their clinical rotations when accreditation was approved.

The LCME is an odd organization because it's basically a spin-off of three separate larger entities, and it doesn't have a central figurehead like the ACGME has with Tom Nasca. I could see how this could create issues with accountability in the future.

/How do you starve a dog to death?
//You tell more than one person to feed the dog

 

[WingedOx]

The school is accredited but these students are supposed to perform their own evaluation and determine that it doesn't meet the standard?

Plenty of educational institutions are accredited in all fields. Doesn't mean they prepare you well or will lead to a career when you're done. Are people who want to be physicians not supposed to be discerning?

 

[Med Ed]

You're being deliberately obtuse.

No, merely agreeing with jaxon that the decision is not binary, as you suggest.

 

[Med Ed]

Plenty of educational institutions are accredited in all fields. Doesn't mean they prepare you well or will lead to a career when you're done. Are people who want to be physicians not supposed to be discerning?

Precisely. Thank you.

 

[Med Ed]

Back when Commonwealth was founded I was really skeptical of the LCME's decision. Not because I didn't think it would be a fine school someday, but because IIRC they still hadn't finalized where students were going to be doing their clinical rotations when accreditation was approved.

I was concerned because it was a standalone entity started on a shoestring budget, without the financial security of being part of a university or health system. Prelim was also granted in 2008, a particularly rough year to get off the ground. The research model pretty much went bust. And yet it dutifully fills its classes and sends folks into the match.