California Pharmacists - The Real Story on Job Outlook

[pinipig523]

everyone is mad for this guy running his pharmacy like a business? everyone is pissed off because they want to deny the reality of where pharmacy is going.

enough already, you all should have seen this coming a long time ago. i have posted on these boards about this for far too long. many others have done the same. when someone posts these back to reality threads, everyone jumps and attacks. pharmacist salaries are going down, like it not. you can try to deny it all you want but eventually it will hit you. your employer will come to you and say, we are cutting salaries and you have the option to stay or not. if not we will terminate you for the good of profit and hire a person for lower wage.

give it some short time people, this is coming. why would you pay 1 person 110k a year to do "pharmaceutical services" when you can hire 2 people for 85k and double the productivity and increase your profit? you spent an additional 60k, but were able to double productivity and possibly profit. sounds like a smart move to me.

start learning supply and demand economics. most pharmacies make their money off front end sales (unless specialty pharm). with that being said, the pharmacy itself is a commodity to draw in more sales to the front end. pharmacy isn'twhat it was in the 1960s. the sooner people accept this, the sooner they can figure out how to survive.

MTM is over, give it up
APhA is over give it up
accept the fate that is pharmacy and push for new legislation. pharmacists collectively never unite and in fact i never seen a group of professionals that are so self deprecating and not unified. most pharmacists would cut another person out from under their feet to survive in this economy.

retail pharmacy has changed drastically and you are just another number. accept this and look at your job this way; it will change your whole outlook on how you approach work.

I don't think anyone is denying the trend of a downtick in pharmacist pay. People aren't jumping on this guy because of that.

People are jumping on this guy because he's no better than any other corporate retail machine - especially when the OP is a pharmacist. Then the OP tries to pass off that he's not earning a fair living, has to go to work "unpaid" at 5am. Then the OP has the audacity to tell the group to complain to the associations or anyone who would listen about the unfair pay for pharmacists and that we should all rise up and stop the openings of future pharmacy schools.

Well, that's fine. But instead of showing some shallow support for your own profession and spouting rhetorics - why don't you step up to the plate and do your part? Pay your pharmacist a bit better and don't take advantage of them like every other retail giant out there. Be an example instead of posting a nonsensical thread on the forum.

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[gotdrugs]

everyone is mad for this guy running his pharmacy like a business? everyone is pissed off because they want to deny the reality of where pharmacy is going.

enough already, you all should have seen this coming a long time ago. i have posted on these boards about this for far too long. many others have done the same. when someone posts these back to reality threads, everyone jumps and attacks. pharmacist salaries are going down, like it not. you can try to deny it all you want but eventually it will hit you. your employer will come to you and say, we are cutting salaries and you have the option to stay or not. if not we will terminate you for the good of profit and hire a person for lower wage.

give it some short time people, this is coming. why would you pay 1 person 110k a year to do "pharmaceutical services" when you can hire 2 people for 85k and double the productivity and increase your profit? you spent an additional 60k, but were able to double productivity and possibly profit. sounds like a smart move to me.

start learning supply and demand economics. most pharmacies make their money off front end sales (unless specialty pharm). with that being said, the pharmacy itself is a commodity to draw in more sales to the front end. pharmacy isn'twhat it was in the 1960s. the sooner people accept this, the sooner they can figure out how to survive.

MTM is over, give it up
APhA is over give it up
accept the fate that is pharmacy and push for new legislation. pharmacists collectively never unite and in fact i never seen a group of professionals that are so self deprecating and not unified. most pharmacists would cut another person out from under their feet to survive in this economy.

retail pharmacy has changed drastically and you are just another number. accept this and look at your job this way; it will change your whole outlook on how you approach work.

I bolded just two parts of your *as always* humorous rant.

What do you see about these sections that I wanted to draw attention to?

 

[PharmDTop5]

Anyone who feels entitled to "get 100k" for the work we do is completely wrong. What we do and what we are trained to do are very very different things. What we should/could do is worth 130-150k on many levels. What pharmacists currently do as stated by some other posters is some very basic inventory and workflow management (and don't give the BS that this is hard...you obviously haven't worked in a fast food chain/know any fast food chain managers...many people without educated are amazing at managing workflow like this). The chains and the very nature of the pharma industry has made inventory management and workflow semi brainless, electronic adjudication has made insurance much easier to deal with today than in the past. Everything is easier for the most part yet salary's have gone up.

What we need to do is wake up as profession. Recognize that we are all not worth six figures right now...once we get out of denial maybe we can move on with the idea that its time to change pharmacy to a provider focused profession through legislation rather than a retail focused profession.

The problem isn't owners like me. The problem is people fighting tooth and nail for the status quo and then denying there is a problem and attacking people who bring up a problem. The world is headed towards a world of hurt for pharmacists graduating today in some markets. And all I can hear from a lot of you is...oh don't worry there hourly rate is still this or that..my friend just got this job or that.

WAKE UP FOR God's sake. See the mega trends. Wallgreen's just bought a 200 M specialty pharmacy provider today. What do you think the company they bought does? They ship new biologics directly to a patients home in specialized packaging, and they offer disease management, patient counseling via internet and phone directly to the patients home. They have call centers in other states (cheaper states) that field questions from the patients and providers and help with adherence.

Some of you scare me. You scare me because you sound complacent and attack the wrong people. You sound like Blockbuster -- videos in store always right? Borders -- get books in stores right?

PLEASE. This entire thread's popularity is based on people thinking that I am somehow crazy by discounting a pharmacist's salary to 80ish in some markets. THAT IS THE LEAST of the problems right now.

 

[Its Z]

Well, the work provided by your pharmacists at your joint may not be worth 100k per year but i have a CA pharmacist position - staff...at $160k per year with a major sweet benefits package and i think they deserve more.

 

[njac]

Well, the work provided by your pharmacists at your joint may not be worth 100k per year but i have a CA pharmacist position - staff...at $160k per year with a major sweet benefits package and i think they deserve more.

I'm making just less than that as a unicorn clinical specialist in california.

You just have to find a department that knows your worth.

 

[Its Z]

I'm making just less than that as a unicorn clinical specialist in california.

You just have to find a department that knows your worth.

My buddy dop is hiring a m-f unicorn for $67 per hour. But my dept is better.

 

[njac]

My buddy dop is hiring a m-f unicorn for $67 per hour. But my dept is better.

California, FTW!

 

[Its Z]

California, FTW!

Well we are both in CA. I hate the state income tax tho.

 

[njac]

Well we are both in CA. I hate the state income tax tho.

I'm used to it. I've never lived in a state without it.

 

[Its Z]

I'm used to it. I've never lived in a state without it.

The truth is CA reg and the gov suck. theres a reason the state is near bankrupt. the gov is too big and employ too many people....especially those MERP idiots.

 

[njac]

The truth is CA reg and the gov suck. theres a reason the state is near bankrupt. the gov is too big and employ too many people....especially those MERP idiots.

oh I know, I'm the one who couldn't work for 6 weeks thiss ummer because CA BOP was taking their sweet, sweet time to process my license.

 

[Its Z]

I absolutely love the locale and the outdoors here. but i hate this backward hippie state. damn i wish texas would take over CA

 

[rxlea]

I want to be a unicorn.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

 

[njac]

I want to be a unicorn.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

yay for unicorns!

 

[Its Z]

I want to be a unicorn.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

Timing is everything.

 

[njac]

Timing is everything.

and location is not.

 

[Its Z]

I gotta go back to my office.
....left a dozen of fresh organic eggs on my desk. so many people raise chickens here!

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

I gotta go back to my office.
....left a dozen of fresh organic eggs on my desk. so many people raise chickens here!

Sunny-side up with a side of toast & jelly for me!

 

[Its Z]

Sunny-side up with a side of toast & jelly for me!

You askin me to serve you breakfast?

 

[njac]

You askin me to serve you breakfast?

she's good!

 

[SpirivaSunrise]

You askin me to serve you breakfast?

I don't know...with the time difference, it may be lunch.

 

[PharmDTop5]

ItsZ and others talking about the highly paid staff spots. Listen, I'm not trying to talk about the ifs and buts. You and I agree, there are pharmacists/pharmacist positions out there that are worth much more than the market rate. I am talking about retail, the market middle end market in the high saturated areas that a lot of current students are dreaming about practicing in. That was the sole point of the data I provided and it is not to say that as a pharmacist you could/should not be at a much higher salary. I don't know the details of your work, but I'm sure that the work that you do is higher end than the work that we do or what most retail pharmacies do.

I'm trying to make the real data point that pharmacies are suffering. My data is being discounted so lets look at something less disputable. Savon, Wallgreens, Rite Aid, etc.

(Verifiable at any income statement provider...yahoo finance, google finance, or the company website itself)
Rite Aid- Last 3 years about 7 Billion dollars annually in gross profit. However, the company lost money in each of the last 3 years on net income and operating income basis. LOST money.
WAG- Last 3 years profit margin of less than 4%...yes 4%.
CVS - Last 3 year profit margin of less than 4%

The macro trend says the pharmacy business, the retail business, is a razor thin margin people. In business, we know one thing -- when there is any business that operates on low margins -- it will exploit cost savings / operational efficiency at the first chance it gets. The entire business -- profit versus loss - relies on complete operational efficiency - 4%. Now, you know that in Wallgreens its about a 75% to 25% pharmacy to non pharmacy income split. If anything, the wallgreens front end is higher margin (all those random cosmetics etc) than the prescriptions and OTC products. As a result, it is actually important to understand that the WAG/CVS etc. pharmacy margins are lower than 4% on a net profit basis.

Now imagine that these companies face increasing pressure from PBM's to lower costs (which is why WAG lost 10% of its pharmacy business from Express Scripts...ES was simply asking too much and WAG had to draw its line in the sand) while facing the general retail trend of increased online spending by consumers (WAG/CVS is gradually losing that toilet paper business, the soap cleaners etc to the internet and now OTC products gradually). WHAT do you think will be happening in the coming years with respect to pharmacist salary's?

People people ... the game is a 4% margin game at best...probably closer to 3% and when you cut out higher margin OTC versus Rx ... it could be even less!!

I won't provide our margin numbers at our pharmacies...but I hope people understand that the decision to cut a salary isn't a small issue. In this business the line between black and red, profit and loss is razorrr thin. You have one off month and you are done for the year.

For most independents, if they lost 5-10% of their scripts to a new competitor-- wow bad things. The pharmacy business is a fight tooth and nail every single day. It is a blood bath out there and students need to be educated. They are walking into a middle of a technological revolution in pharmacy and in the middle of a retail versus provider transition. They need to expect that there are going to be some rough times before good times. They need to have the mindset that pumping scripts as a "profession" is not going to get them 100k a year...at least not all of them like what is being propogated every single day on these forums.

 

[Its Z]

she's good!

Good at what?

 

[Its Z]

Too long.... Didnt read.

ItsZ and others talking about the highly paid staff spots. Listen, I'm not trying to talk about the ifs and buts. You and I agree, there are pharmacists/pharmacist positions out there that are worth much more than the market rate. I am talking about retail, the market middle end market in the high saturated areas that a lot of current students are dreaming about practicing in. That was the sole point of the data I provided and it is not to say that as a pharmacist you could/should not be at a much higher salary. I don't know the details of your work, but I'm sure that the work that you do is higher end than the work that we do or what most retail pharmacies do.

I'm trying to make the real data point that pharmacies are suffering. My data is being discounted so lets look at something less disputable. Savon, Wallgreens, Rite Aid, etc.

(Verifiable at any income statement provider...yahoo finance, google finance, or the company website itself)
Rite Aid- Last 3 years about 7 Billion dollars annually in gross profit. However, the company lost money in each of the last 3 years on net income and operating income basis. LOST money.
WAG- Last 3 years profit margin of less than 4%...yes 4%.
CVS - Last 3 year profit margin of less than 4%

The macro trend says the pharmacy business, the retail business, is a razor thin margin people. In business, we know one thing -- when there is any business that operates on low margins -- it will exploit cost savings / operational efficiency at the first chance it gets. The entire business -- profit versus loss - relies on complete operational efficiency - 4%. Now, you know that in Wallgreens its about a 75% to 25% pharmacy to non pharmacy income split. If anything, the wallgreens front end is higher margin (all those random cosmetics etc) than the prescriptions and OTC products. As a result, it is actually important to understand that the WAG/CVS etc. pharmacy margins are lower than 4% on a net profit basis.

Now imagine that these companies face increasing pressure from PBM's to lower costs (which is why WAG lost 10% of its pharmacy business from Express Scripts...ES was simply asking too much and WAG had to draw its line in the sand) while facing the general retail trend of increased online spending by consumers (WAG/CVS is gradually losing that toilet paper business, the soap cleaners etc to the internet and now OTC products gradually). WHAT do you think will be happening in the coming years with respect to pharmacist salary's?

People people ... the game is a 4% margin game at best...probably closer to 3% and when you cut out higher margin OTC versus Rx ... it could be even less!!

I won't provide our margin numbers at our pharmacies...but I hope people understand that the decision to cut a salary isn't a small issue. In this business the line between black and red, profit and loss is razorrr thin. You have one off month and you are done for the year.

For most independents, if they lost 5-10% of their scripts to a new competitor-- wow bad things. The pharmacy business is a fight tooth and nail every single day. It is a blood bath out there and students need to be educated. They are walking into a middle of a technological revolution in pharmacy and in the middle of a retail versus provider transition. They need to expect that there are going to be some rough times before good times. They need to have the mindset that pumping scripts as a "profession" is not going to get them 100k a year...at least not all of them like what is being propogated every single day on these forums.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I'd ask the owner of my pharmacy how he manages to make money without screwing over his pharmacists on salary... but he's too busy working to get online and type long, condescending lectures and tell people they "don't" understand. I do know that he would never pretend that he only gets paid a pittance or whine about working "unpaid" all the time.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Well, the work provided by your pharmacists at your joint may not be worth 100k per year but i have a CA pharmacist position - staff...at $160k per year with a major sweet benefits package and i think they deserve more.

What is that like minimum wage in Commiefornia?

 

[Its Z]

What is that like minimum wage in Commiefornia?

About.....but the cost of living where i am isnt so bad. you bitch about texas but wait til you leave ....you will see what real suck ass state means. CA sucks... but its prettier.

 

[rxlea]

Timing is everything.

So it seems.

and location is not.

I just want to live somewhere near a Banana Republic and Nordstrom, good Indian food, real Mexican food, a movie theatre, and where it is less than 115 degrees in the summer.

I'd ask the owner of my pharmacy how he manages to make money without screwing over his pharmacists on salary... but he's too busy working to get online and type long, condescending lectures and tell people they "don't" understand. I do know that he would never pretend that he only gets paid a pittance or whine about working "unpaid" all the time.

Who has that kind of time???? Time is money

About.....but the cost of living where i am isnt so bad. you bitch about texas but wait til you leave ....you will see what real suck ass state means. CA sucks... but its prettier.

Top 3 reasons why Cali sucks... go!

 

[pinipig523]

People people ... the game is a 4% margin game at best...probably closer to 3% and when you cut out higher margin OTC versus Rx ... it could be even less!!

I won't provide our margin numbers at our pharmacies...but I hope people understand that the decision to cut a salary isn't a small issue. In this business the line between black and red, profit and loss is razorrr thin. You have one off month and you are done for the year.

OK, so given that your profits are RAZOR thin.... why do you come on the boards with the intention to rile people up to stand up and fight against lowered wages? Why do you ask the pharmacists on this board to write to their superiors asking for schools not to be opened so as to not oversaturate the field?

If this was the case and there were a reversal and there were less pharmacists, then wouldn't higher pay diminish your razor thin profits?

If so, what's the point of this thread?

From what I'm reading - you're saying that high pharmacist pay is unsustainable - so the point of decreasing saturation is a moot point. If you can't pay a pharmacist any higher than $80K, then you can't pay them any higher regardless of the situation with the field in general.

 

[Momrowgal]

My buddy dop is hiring a m-f unicorn for $67 per hour. But my dept is better.

Keep in mind cost of living, for California according to the census bureau (vs natl average of 100)

Fresno 117.3
LA-Long Beach 136.4
Oakland 139.1
Orange County 146.4
Palm Springs 121.8
Riverside 112.5
Sacramento 116.2
San Diego 132.3
San Francisco 164.0
San Jose 156.1
Truckee-Nevada County 146.9

 

[PharmDTop5]

What is funny to me, is that I get nothing but support for my posts on this thread and view point in private messages and mostly just criticism on the thread itself. Listen, I didn't make the thread to start a fight. I made it for 1 reason only-- to give new students a realist opinion on the California pharmacist retail market using a small subset of data that I have through my network. Everyone can take it or leave it but there are some undisputable facts with regards to the movement of mail order, technology, new school openings, unemployment and more importantly UNDERemployment/employment of new pharmacists.

I suggest everyone investigate the situation in their own markets and talk to real pharmacists who have been in the game for a long time and take everything you hear on an sdn thread with a grain of salt whether it be my viewpoint or the other valid viewpoints of the posters opposed to me here.

I've been getting two types of messages on how to deal with the situation if you believe my point of view on the pharmacy world:
1) I am considering pharmacy school, should I still go?
In a nut shell, yes but know what you are getting into. Do not think you are guaranteed anything. You need to come into school expecting fierce competition, the willingness to build social and academic skills. You need to come in with the expectation that you will have to be creative to get your intern hours (maybe volunteering etc in some cases) and will need to fight tooth and nail to get a niche--compounding, long term care, perhaps hospital positions etc.
In short, start pharmacy school like law school. Many are going to make it great, and some are going to quite simply put...never ever going to see a return on investment (investing 200k to get a 70-80ish job is in my opinion not wise.) That said, pharmacy school is attracting so many bad candidates these days, I think it is quite easy for you to be socially adept and excel over classmates that may not be able to network. If we do end up moving to a more counseling type of roll, I think charisma will become more of a valuable skill to employers like me and we'll be willing to pay extra for it.

2) I am in pharmacy school, what should I do?
Listen, this is my opinion. If it were ME or my SON/DAUGHTER, I would say either become a clinical specialist board certified etc. (which I know less about) or enter retail in a specific way. I don't know anything about industrial positions and insurance companies etc. But I do know about retail, and if you are going to be in retail I would say join Kaiser, CVS, Wal Mart or WAG. I'd put high probability that these 3 guys will co-evolve/survive in a changing market. They will have lay offs etc and restructuring but they will always have the need for pharmacists (the best ones that is). Avoid companies that do not have pharmacy as a core business (grocers etc). I wished I learned compounding better in school. Compounding is a great avenue as well if you get someone to mentor you.

The most shrewd bet on a stable income for the rest of your life--join Wal Mart pharmacy and never look back, don't do a residency. Wal Mart will survive any chaos/change that this country's healthcare market will go through.

 

[Jackie B]

I actually appreciated this post. Maybe it's because I haven't started pharmacy school yet - I could imagine people who have their PharmD's already reading these posts getting PO'd because the worth of their degree is being challenged. It sounds like a lot of people here got into pharmacy at the opportune time when there was a shortage so they got used to their 120k+ salaries thinking that that's what their degree was worth when really they just got lucky with timing. That's how nursing is now, nursing was never a career to go into for the money, but these days with a BSN you can expect to see 100k or more just because demand is high now. Everyone and their mom is going to nursing school for this reason now.

I don't think what retail pharmacists DO merit the high salary; however, the time and especially MONEY it takes to get the degree merits the higher salary. California schools charge $150-200K in tuition alone...I read somewhere that the amount you pay for tuition should be equal to or less than your one year salary for it to be "worth it". Well, if pharmacists make 80-110K/yr then economically, becoming a pharmacist isn't worth the cost. I have no problem working as a pharmacist for 80K, I still think that's a lot of money, but the problem is I'm not willing to do so when the degree is going to cost me double or triple that!

The problem is the schools that keep raising tuition, and they can, because they receive a jillion applicants - supply and demand. Too bad most applicants don't do any research regarding finances and the market and such to see if pharmacy school is financially worth it. I've spoken to some students in pharmacy school for advice and they're completely obvious to the finances, they just took out the loans like no problem without a worry of being able to pay them back. I've also spoken to some recent grads who've been hit by reality and they're pretty upset, some even told me not to do pharmacy because it's not worth it. Furthermore, I spoke to someone who works at a chain who graduated from Western in 2004 or 2005 and his tuition was 33-35K, now it's 45K/yr! That's a HUGE increase for just a few years time but it keeps going up. The schools saw the shortage, saw their students were being offered good money, and thought, "hey, these kids are gonna make a fortune when they get out, let's keep charging them, they'll pay, because they know they're gonna hit the jackpot once they're out". WELL that's not the case anymore now is it! No more sign on bonuses or BMW's or 120K+ salaries signed on the spot at school job fairs. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen to pharmacy school tuition in 5-10 years when CA is really saturated and there are 2 new schools open.

 

[confettiflyer]

Keep in mind cost of living, for California according to the census bureau (vs natl average of 100)

Fresno 117.3
LA-Long Beach 136.4
Oakland 139.1
Orange County 146.4
Palm Springs 121.8
Riverside 112.5
Sacramento 116.2
San Diego 132.3
San Francisco 164.0
San Jose 156.1
Truckee-Nevada County 146.9

wtf...living in bumfu*k truckee costs more than san diego and orange county? what the hell crack are these people smoking?

 

[xiphoid2010]

Right now, fresh grads make the same as people with 20 years experience. I say the system needs to rewards experience and additional skill/training. I can imagine a job market where fresh grads start at $80k-$85k for fresh grads, going up to $150-$160K for experienced board specialists.

 

[xiphoid2010]

wtf...living in bumfu*k truckee costs more than san diego and orange county? what the hell crack are these people smoking?

I don't know, take a look at Salary.com's living cost calculator and see if that makes more sense.

COL wizard

 

[jasonkido]

I actually appreciated this post. Maybe it's because I haven't started pharmacy school yet - I could imagine people who have their PharmD's already reading these posts getting PO'd because the worth of their degree is being challenged. It sounds like a lot of people here got into pharmacy at the opportune time when there was a shortage so they got used to their 120k+ salaries thinking that that's what their degree was worth when really they just got lucky with timing. That's how nursing is now, nursing was never a career to go into for the money, but these days with a BSN you can expect to see 100k or more just because demand is high now. Everyone and their mom is going to nursing school for this reason now.

I don't think what retail pharmacists DO merit the high salary; however, the time and especially MONEY it takes to get the degree merits the higher salary. California schools charge $150-200K in tuition alone...I read somewhere that the amount you pay for tuition should be equal to or less than your one year salary for it to be "worth it". Well, if pharmacists make 80-110K/yr then economically, becoming a pharmacist isn't worth the cost. I have no problem working as a pharmacist for 80K, I still think that's a lot of money, but the problem is I'm not willing to do so when the degree is going to cost me double or triple that!

The problem is the schools that keep raising tuition, and they can, because they receive a jillion applicants - supply and demand. Too bad most applicants don't do any research regarding finances and the market and such to see if pharmacy school is financially worth it. I've spoken to some students in pharmacy school for advice and they're completely obvious to the finances, they just took out the loans like no problem without a worry of being able to pay them back. I've also spoken to some recent grads who've been hit by reality and they're pretty upset, some even told me not to do pharmacy because it's not worth it. Furthermore, I spoke to someone who works at a chain who graduated from Western in 2004 or 2005 and his tuition was 33-35K, now it's 45K/yr! That's a HUGE increase for just a few years time but it keeps going up. The schools saw the shortage, saw their students were being offered good money, and thought, "hey, these kids are gonna make a fortune when they get out, let's keep charging them, they'll pay, because they know they're gonna hit the jackpot once they're out". WELL that's not the case anymore now is it! No more sign on bonuses or BMW's or 120K+ salaries signed on the spot at school job fairs. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen to pharmacy school tuition in 5-10 years when CA is really saturated and there are 2 new schools open.

Basically, pharmacy is not a free ride to 120k+ salaries, full-time employment with sick benefits package kinda deal anymore. Also the flexibility is now gone since much of the areas surrounding pharmacy schools and metropolitan cities have become hugely saturated. New grads will have to adapt by moving out to more undesirable areas and also networking like crazy along with it. I feel like this post has been repeated 100 times in one form or another.

The op's initial point about over saturation in California due to schools is a story all too common and is happening everywhere there is at least 2 pharmacy schools. Even the less desirable locations will be flooded soon. We can only hope for an expansion in the retail sector and a shift away from mail order.

 

[Momrowgal]

wtf...living in bumfu*k truckee costs more than san diego and orange county? what the hell crack are these people smoking?

Priced Out
Truckee/Tahoe's cost of living recently ranked top 10 in the nation
By David Bunker/Moonshine Ink

December Print Edition
Published: December 9, 2011

http://moonshineink.com/articles.php/95/2604

(click link to read the full article)

Even those who know all too well that Truckee is an outrageously expensive place to live must have been caught by surprise when Truckee made the top 10 in a list of the nation’s most expensive cities in early November.
The news, first released in a report by the Council for Community and Economic Research, which actually included Truckee, North Tahoe, and Grass Valley, later made headlines in media outlets across the nation including the Wall Street Journal on Nov. 1.
Truckee ranked as the ninth most expensive area in the nation, above Orange County but below Manhattan, San Francisco, San Jose, Honolulu, Stamford, Conn., and Washington, D.C. And the report put numbers and statistics behind what Truckee residents have known for quite some time — every expense is inflated in town.
Truckee’s grocery prices ranked fourth highest in the nation, and transportation costs were well above the national average, not surprising for an area where gas prices regularly rank among the highest in the continental United States.
According to the report, it is 36.5 percent cheaper to live in Reno than it is to live in Truckee. A family living in Truckee and making $50,000 per year could move to Reno and make $31,750 per year and maintain the exact same lifestyle. That number only calculates the cost of living; it does not take into account Nevada’s lower taxes.
In fact, in every single category that the report looked at — housing, utility bills, transportation, groceries, health care — Truckee outpaced the national average by a long shot. . . .

 

[Jackie B]

That's true this topic has been brought up a lot before but I feel like all the other threads have been speculation, worry, typical "sky is falling" SDN attitude with hearsay and assumptions.....but this thread was a real example with concrete numbers and detailed explanations, that kind of concretized everything. It's like hearing the sky is falling vs. seeing a piece of chunk fall to the ground. LOL

 

[Rph888]

I actually appreciated this post. Maybe it's because I haven't started pharmacy school yet - I could imagine people who have their PharmD's already reading these posts getting PO'd because the worth of their degree is being challenged. It sounds like a lot of people here got into pharmacy at the opportune time when there was a shortage so they got used to their 120k+ salaries thinking that that's what their degree was worth when really they just got lucky with timing. That's how nursing is now, nursing was never a career to go into for the money, but these days with a BSN you can expect to see 100k or more just because demand is high now. Everyone and their mom is going to nursing school for this reason now.

this is a total falsehood. seriously....yes, an experienced bsn already hired into kaiser can easily make 100K, but for a new grad? it is not easy to land a new grad nursing spot at all. this 100k nursing talk is just like pharmacy saying "good 120k jobs in los angeles or chicago!!" most of the rest of usa where most of us live bsn dont get close to california wages btw.

I don't think what retail pharmacists DO merit the high salary; however, the time and especially MONEY it takes to get the degree merits the higher salary. California schools charge $150-200K in tuition alone...I read somewhere that the amount you pay for tuition should be equal to or less than your one year salary for it to be "worth it". Well, if pharmacists make 80-110K/yr then economically, becoming a pharmacist isn't worth the cost. I have no problem working as a pharmacist for 80K, I still think that's a lot of money, but the problem is I'm not willing to do so when the degree is going to cost me double or triple that!
do what i did, refuse to pay high tuition. refuse private schools. go to an inexpensive, taxpayer funded public school.

The problem is the schools that keep raising tuition, and they can, because they receive a jillion applicants - supply and demand. Too bad most applicants don't do any research regarding finances and the market and such to see if pharmacy school is financially worth it. I've spoken to some students in pharmacy school for advice and they're completely obvious to the finances, they just took out the loans like no problem without a worry of being able to pay them back. I've also spoken to some recent grads who've been hit by reality and they're pretty upset, some even told me not to do pharmacy because it's not worth it. Furthermore, I spoke to someone who works at a chain who graduated from Western in 2004 or 2005 and his tuition was 33-35K, now it's 45K/yr! That's a HUGE increase for just a few years time but it keeps going up. The schools saw the shortage, saw their students were being offered good money, and thought, "hey, these kids are gonna make a fortune when they get out, let's keep charging them, they'll pay, because they know they're gonna hit the jackpot once they're out". WELL that's not the case anymore now is it! No more sign on bonuses or BMW's or 120K+ salaries signed on the spot at school job fairs. I'm really curious to see what's going to happen to pharmacy school tuition in 5-10 years when CA is really saturated and there are 2 new schools open.

That's true this topic has been brought up a lot before but I feel like all the other threads have been speculation, worry, typical "sky is falling" SDN attitude with hearsay and assumptions.....but this thread was a real example with concrete numbers and detailed explanations, that kind of concretized everything. It's like hearing the sky is falling vs. seeing a piece of chunk fall to the ground. LOL

So whats the plan Jackie B? You know pharmacy is going down the tubes in California...You're still pre-pharm...it seems you know what your debt levels will be. you know paying 150K + in tuition for a job in a field where Wages are falling is a raw deal...btw i like how you think so far, so i really want to hear your plan

 

[Rph888]

What is funny to me, is that I get nothing but support for my posts on this thread and view point in private messages and mostly just criticism on the thread itself.

I sincerely thank you for your posts in this thread, you are truly enlightening many. keep it coming though, this thread actually encouraged me to actually open a sdn acct. haha

 

[Jackie B]

So whats the plan Jackie B? You know pharmacy is going down the tubes in California...You're still pre-pharm...it seems you know what your debt levels will be. you know paying 150K + in tuition for a job in a field where Wages are falling is a raw deal...btw i like how you think so far, so i really want to hear your plan

Haha thanks. As to the BSN comment, I did exaggerate a bit, but if you have a BSN (and I mean BSN....NOT an A.A. RN from a ****ty for-profit school) and a few years work experience you can make 100k. Maybe not anymore, it sounds like nursing is getting saturated fast too. But for example my friend's cousin got her BSN, worked as an RN for 2 years and got promoted to Case Manager where she makes over 100K. Now this was 2-3 years ago though when I think the shortage was bad but it's VERY EASY to get promoted in nursing (if you have a BSN) or move to another hospital and take on a higher position because there is a lot of hierarchy to nursing positions and different kinds, specialties, etc whereas there isn't too much potential to move anywhere for a pharmacist. My whole point was that when there is a demand for a career, that career's "worth" or compensation rises dramatically to attract candidates. Everyone on this forum is complaining that they deserve their 120K and that the OP is satan but they're just spoiled brats who got lucky and landed their jobs during the shortage when salary was falsely high. Again my issue is not the 80K (like it is for the crybabies here)...my issue is the tuition which makes it not worth it. Students will realize this eventually but probably not for 5-10 years unfortunately.

To your second point, I wish I could refuse higher tuition but there are only 2 public pharmacy schools in CA and they're extremely hard to get into compared to the other schools as I'm sure you know. The decision isn't up to me lol. I did get accepted into 2 CA schools already (Western and Pacific) and have an interview at UCSF coming up. I think a UCSF degree is very valuable so if I were to get in, I would definitely pursue it. I declined Western's admission because the school seems like it's a chain feeder which is not my interested. I have Pacific's acceptance to sit on and come up with a decision b/c they want my money in like 2 weeks LOL.

This is hard. I've worked really hard to come this far but that's not enough reason to continue something just to say I stuck it out. I don't know, I'll take this spring and summer researching the topic more and hopefully come up with a decision

 

[xXRAYNEXx]

Haha thanks. As to the BSN comment, I did exaggerate a bit, but if you have a BSN (and I mean BSN....NOT an A.A. RN from a ****ty for-profit school) and a few years work experience you can make 100k. Maybe not anymore, it sounds like nursing is getting saturated fast too. But for example my friend's cousin got her BSN, worked as an RN for 2 years and got promoted to Case Manager where she makes over 100K. Now this was 2-3 years ago though when I think the shortage was bad but it's VERY EASY to get promoted in nursing (if you have a BSN) or move to another hospital and take on a higher position because there is a lot of hierarchy to nursing positions and different kinds, specialties, etc whereas there isn't too much potential to move anywhere for a pharmacist. My whole point was that when there is a demand for a career, that career's "worth" or compensation rises dramatically to attract candidates. Everyone on this forum is complaining that they deserve their 120K and that the OP is satan but they're just spoiled brats who got lucky and landed their jobs during the shortage when salary was falsely high. Again my issue is not the 80K (like it is for the crybabies here)...my issue is the tuition which makes it not worth it. Students will realize this eventually but probably not for 5-10 years unfortunately.

To your second point, I wish I could refuse higher tuition but there are only 2 public pharmacy schools in CA and they're extremely hard to get into compared to the other schools as I'm sure you know. The decision isn't up to me lol. I did get accepted into 2 CA schools already (Western and Pacific) and have an interview at UCSF coming up. I think a UCSF degree is very valuable so if I were to get in, I would definitely pursue it. I declined Western's admission because the school seems like it's a chain feeder which is not my interested. I have Pacific's acceptance to sit on and come up with a decision b/c they want my money in like 2 weeks LOL.

This is hard. I've worked really hard to come this far but that's not enough reason to continue something just to say I stuck it out. I don't know, I'll take this spring and summer researching the topic more and hopefully come up with a decision

Yeah I don't think the PharmD is worth more than $150K nowadays. It's not worth the investment as other careers that don't require a huge amount of debt but still have a six figure salary with experience. Only get it because you like the nature of the job and its dynamics, not the money, which is now on a decline.

If you like the job but the debt worries you, you can always go out of state for cheap. There
are still some schools with $5k-$10k for tuition. I'm not sure if you want to live there though. The school may be swept up by the next hurricane along with your degree, lol.

 

[Jackie B]

Ehh the problem with out-of-state schools is that you have to pay out-of-state tution lol so even though the in-house tuition is cheap the out-of-state tuition balances out. Even if it's still less the amount of money you save is probably not worth the cost of NOT having made connections in CA, interned in CA, done rotations here, etc, since you clearly need to network like crazy and beg someone for a job. I'm a California girl and would not consider living or working anywhere else

Sooo I see that you're a pre-pharmer in So-cal too. What's your plan??? I'm curious since you seem to agree with me. I find it so sad how so many pre-pharmers are floating in blissful ignorance and not even thinking about the cost or researching the market. They just *assume* there are plenty of jobs out there. No idea why. Maybe that's what their mommies and daddies told them lol.

Yeah I don't think the PharmD is worth more than $150K nowadays. It's not worth the investment as other careers that don't require a huge amount of debt but still have a six figure salary with experience. Only get it because you like the nature of the job and its dynamics, not the money, which is now on a decline.

If you like the job but the debt worries you, you can always go out of state for cheap. There
are still some schools with $5k-$10k for tuition. I'm not sure if you want to live there though. The school may be swept up by the next hurricane along with your degree, lol.

 

[Jackie B]

BTW this is kind of and kind of not related but the point I made above about students taking out loans with no worry....it's going to escalade into a national issue. A lot of students go to private schools that easily charge 200-300K for 4 years of UNDERGRAD. I mean really what in the world kind of job can you get straight out of college to tackle that. I'm not talking about the sons and daughters of politicians who go to Harvard and can pay for it in cash but I'm talking about the average Joe kid who goes to some private school, heck even some public schools (*cough*UC's) are super expensive. The whole economy got messed up because ******s took too many loans on their houses when they couldn't pay them back....well I think the next economic tragedy is going to be students not paying their student loans back, defaulting, causing a second downfall. I wish this country didn't run on credit. Buy only what you can afford.

 

[xXRAYNEXx]

Ehh the problem with out-of-state schools is that you have to pay out-of-state tution lol so even though the in-house tuition is cheap the out-of-state tuition balances out. Even if it's still less the amount of money you save is probably not worth the cost of NOT having made connections in CA, interned in CA, done rotations here, etc, since you clearly need to network like crazy and beg someone for a job. I'm a California girl and would not consider living or working anywhere else

Sooo I see that you're a pre-pharmer in So-cal too. What's your plan??? I'm curious since you seem to agree with me. I find it so sad how so many pre-pharmers are floating in blissful ignorance and not even thinking about the cost or researching the market. They just *assume* there are plenty of jobs out there. No idea why. Maybe that's what their mommies and daddies told them lol.

Of course I count the cost of an outofstate resident, but u need to carefully select schools that allow u to apply for instate residency after a year. Yea u can easily find pharm students oblivious of the current job outlook and still believe in the hype about the false shortage and benefits because they don't do their own research. They will hit the wall hard after graduation. As for my plan, I'm going out of state even though I'm accepted to California schools. I love cali, but I need to leave my nest to grow, then work my way home. Hopefully, you will hook me up with a job later, LOL.

 

[xXRAYNEXx]

BTW this is kind of and kind of not related but the point I made above about students taking out loans with no worry....it's going to escalade into a national issue. A lot of students go to private schools that easily charge 200-300K for 4 years of UNDERGRAD. I mean really what in the world kind of job can you get straight out of college to tackle that. I'm not talking about the sons and daughters of politicians who go to Harvard and can pay for it in cash but I'm talking about the average Joe kid who goes to some private school, heck even some public schools (*cough*UC's) are super expensive. The whole economy got messed up because ******s took too many loans on their houses when they couldn't pay them back....well I think the next economic tragedy is going to be students not paying their student loans back, defaulting, causing a second downfall. I wish this country didn't run on credit. Buy only what you can afford.

Although undergrad private schools are costly, they do give tons of need-based scholarships like usc and Stanford. So the actual cost of attendance maybe the same or lower than public. It's the lenders and borrowers fault to me. The lenders were too lenient on giving out loans for high risk applicants because of greed. I would be careful on what you wish for, credit is a tool used for great things if handled properly. Without it, you may regret it. Just my opion..lol

 

[Jackie B]

Hopefully, you will hook me up with a job later, LOL.

LOL ur really funny. That made me chuckle. As for the student loans...yeahhh some schools give out scholarships but still, that 50k/yr going down to 30k/yr is still a lot. Also don't forget the for-profit schools - those don't have scholarships and tend to be very pricey. Finally most students can't find work so they go for master's degrees or postbac programs and other expensive non-scholarship-y things. I just suspect there is going to be a huge student loan problem in the near future causing another problem in the already-broken economy.

So u did ur research, where are u going to school? Where did u get accepted into in CA?

 

[Ackj]

I just suspect there is going to be a huge student loan problem in the near future.

Isn't that already happening? Those Occupy folks and all that?

 

[xiphoid2010]

Isn't that already happening? Those Occupy folks and all that?

Don't know if this has already been posted.
Student loan debt surpass credit card debt

Easy money lead to housing bubble in 08, when that burst it lead to this bubble.

 

[CareDD]

What is funny to me, is that I get nothing but support for my posts on this thread and view point in private messages and mostly just criticism on the thread itself. Listen, I didn't make the thread to start a fight. I made it for 1 reason only-- to give new students a realist opinion on the California pharmacist retail market using a small subset of data that I have through my network. Everyone can take it or leave it but there are some undisputable facts with regards to the movement of mail order, technology, new school openings, unemployment and more importantly UNDERemployment/employment of new pharmacists.

I suggest everyone investigate the situation in their own markets and talk to real pharmacists who have been in the game for a long time and take everything you hear on an sdn thread with a grain of salt whether it be my viewpoint or the other valid viewpoints of the posters opposed to me here.

I've been getting two types of messages on how to deal with the situation if you believe my point of view on the pharmacy world:
1) I am considering pharmacy school, should I still go?
In a nut shell, yes but know what you are getting into. Do not think you are guaranteed anything. You need to come into school expecting fierce competition, the willingness to build social and academic skills. You need to come in with the expectation that you will have to be creative to get your intern hours (maybe volunteering etc in some cases) and will need to fight tooth and nail to get a niche--compounding, long term care, perhaps hospital positions etc.
In short, start pharmacy school like law school. Many are going to make it great, and some are going to quite simply put...never ever going to see a return on investment (investing 200k to get a 70-80ish job is in my opinion not wise.) That said, pharmacy school is attracting so many bad candidates these days, I think it is quite easy for you to be socially adept and excel over classmates that may not be able to network. If we do end up moving to a more counseling type of roll, I think charisma will become more of a valuable skill to employers like me and we'll be willing to pay extra for it.

2) I am in pharmacy school, what should I do?
Listen, this is my opinion. If it were ME or my SON/DAUGHTER, I would say either become a clinical specialist board certified etc. (which I know less about) or enter retail in a specific way. I don't know anything about industrial positions and insurance companies etc. But I do know about retail, and if you are going to be in retail I would say join Kaiser, CVS, Wal Mart or WAG. I'd put high probability that these 3 guys will co-evolve/survive in a changing market. They will have lay offs etc and restructuring but they will always have the need for pharmacists (the best ones that is). Avoid companies that do not have pharmacy as a core business (grocers etc). I wished I learned compounding better in school. Compounding is a great avenue as well if you get someone to mentor you.

The most shrewd bet on a stable income for the rest of your life--join Wal Mart pharmacy and never look back, don't do a residency. Wal Mart will survive any chaos/change that this country's healthcare market will go through.

Bravo! If you had started this thread like this, you would receive a tremendous support !