California Pharmacists - The Real Story on Job Outlook

[Judgment Dragon]

^ wtf... That school name sounds like a troll... That's the kind of school I'd shut down. And California pharmacists are paid by the hour with strict OT laws, so I think you are trolling

http://www.uiw.edu/pharmacy/

I asked about that too in another thread. Are you sure the job isn't 7 on 7 off? California is one of the only states that mandates OT and lunch breaks for pharmacists, I doubt someone is working 70 hours every week making 130k as a pharmacist or that their base hourly rate is $37 an hour.

What does 7 on 7 off mean?

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[confettiflyer]

lol

 

[HouTX]

university of incarnate word... bottom of the barrel students go there

 

[ineeddrug]

http://www.uiw.edu/pharmacy/



What does 7 on 7 off mean?

It is 7 days on and 7 days off.
But usually they make you work Wed -Sat (4 days) & Sun-Tue (3days). So they don't have to pay OT because each payroll starts Sun thru Sat.

As far as I know, at least CVS stopped doing this because some pharmacist sued company for not paying OT.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

It is 7 days on and 7 days off.
But usually they make you work Wed -Sat (4 days) & Sun-Tue (3days). So they don't have to pay OT because each payroll starts Sun thru Sat.

As far as I know, at least CVS stopped doing this because some pharmacist sued company for not paying OT.

Do you mean work 7 days, then take a break for 7 days?

 

[owlegrad]

Do you mean work 7 days, then take a break for 7 days?

No he means work 168 hours straight then off 168 hours.

 

[confettiflyer]

lol

 

[lt23]

lol

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

http://www.calcxml.com/do/ins07

Simple online calculator--- I just made it simple cause I can't do fancy things with online calculators
Start at 22 for career or 26 for RPh, retire at 62 for both.

Starting at age 22
Years 0-10: $50k+ annual 2% COLA = $547,486 total income for 10 years
One time raise
Years 11-40 $80k+ annual 2% COLA = $3,245,446 total income for 30 years
Lifetime income from ages 22-62: $3,792,932

Starting at age 26
Years 0-36 $110,000k (obviously depends on hospital/retail, etc) + annual 2% COLA = Lifetime income $5,719,380....
MINUS
http://www.mortgage101.com/amortization-calculator-home
Amortizated $200,000k student loans over 25 years at 6.8% interest = $416,443.26

Lifetime total = $5,302,937

Final difference: +$1,510,005 for RPh.

Obviously if you change the numbers it can change dramatically.
If you imput starting salary at $100,000 for RPh with only 1.5% COLA (ie: 0.5% real drop every year).... you get lifetime income of: $4,727,597 - $416,443 in amoritized student loans to give a lifetime total of $4,311,154 and a victory of only $518,222.

But I did this exercise just for you confetti

I feel like that is only half of the story.

Someone making 50k... will spend the majority of their money on basic necessities. Someone making over 100k needs so much for necessities, and then can invest the money giving them more than 1.5 mil difference. For someone who has 0 balances, and invests 50k a year with an average of 7 percent return over 40 years will have a whooping 10.7 million dollars.... with an effective tax rate of 15 percent...

The hardest thing for someone to do is to get a pot of gold at the age of 26 that will keep on giving if used right. I feel like this is an important lesson for a lot of pre pharmacy students who don't know much about finance.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

ItsZ and others talking about the highly paid staff spots. Listen, I'm not trying to talk about the ifs and buts. You and I agree, there are pharmacists/pharmacist positions out there that are worth much more than the market rate. I am talking about retail, the market middle end market in the high saturated areas that a lot of current students are dreaming about practicing in. That was the sole point of the data I provided and it is not to say that as a pharmacist you could/should not be at a much higher salary. I don't know the details of your work, but I'm sure that the work that you do is higher end than the work that we do or what most retail pharmacies do.

I'm trying to make the real data point that pharmacies are suffering. My data is being discounted so lets look at something less disputable. Savon, Wallgreens, Rite Aid, etc.

(Verifiable at any income statement provider...yahoo finance, google finance, or the company website itself)
Rite Aid- Last 3 years about 7 Billion dollars annually in gross profit. However, the company lost money in each of the last 3 years on net income and operating income basis. LOST money.
WAG- Last 3 years profit margin of less than 4%...yes 4%.
CVS - Last 3 year profit margin of less than 4%

The macro trend says the pharmacy business, the retail business, is a razor thin margin people. In business, we know one thing -- when there is any business that operates on low margins -- it will exploit cost savings / operational efficiency at the first chance it gets. The entire business -- profit versus loss - relies on complete operational efficiency - 4%. Now, you know that in Wallgreens its about a 75% to 25% pharmacy to non pharmacy income split. If anything, the wallgreens front end is higher margin (all those random cosmetics etc) than the prescriptions and OTC products. As a result, it is actually important to understand that the WAG/CVS etc. pharmacy margins are lower than 4% on a net profit basis.

Now imagine that these companies face increasing pressure from PBM's to lower costs (which is why WAG lost 10% of its pharmacy business from Express Scripts...ES was simply asking too much and WAG had to draw its line in the sand) while facing the general retail trend of increased online spending by consumers (WAG/CVS is gradually losing that toilet paper business, the soap cleaners etc to the internet and now OTC products gradually). WHAT do you think will be happening in the coming years with respect to pharmacist salary's?

People people ... the game is a 4% margin game at best...probably closer to 3% and when you cut out higher margin OTC versus Rx ... it could be even less!!

I won't provide our margin numbers at our pharmacies...but I hope people understand that the decision to cut a salary isn't a small issue. In this business the line between black and red, profit and loss is razorrr thin. You have one off month and you are done for the year.

For most independents, if they lost 5-10% of their scripts to a new competitor-- wow bad things. The pharmacy business is a fight tooth and nail every single day. It is a blood bath out there and students need to be educated. They are walking into a middle of a technological revolution in pharmacy and in the middle of a retail versus provider transition. They need to expect that there are going to be some rough times before good times. They need to have the mindset that pumping scripts as a "profession" is not going to get them 100k a year...at least not all of them like what is being propogated every single day on these forums.

I am not disagreeing with you... but http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/cvs/financials- CVS as a chain can not be compared to independents. They made 7 billion dollars in profit, and got 3.4 after taxes.... off sales of 1.2 trillion dollars.

Independents have an average of 3 percent profit but that is profit going into the owners hand (depending on how they structure the company). At 3 million dollars in sales, independent owners can easily make 100k+ their salary of 100k... They benefit from not having to pay for back end stuff like warehouses, teams of expensive lawyers, expensive software and hardware, executive officers, and most importantly, have the ability to be flexible.

I don't own an independent but I do work for a lot of them. They don't kill it but they are doing fine as it is.

Those that are not doing so well have the option of choosing to do shady stuff like doing more narcs, double billing, billing for meds not picked up, etc... but not doing it so much they are on Law enforcement or insurance radars.

I worked for one independent owner that gave customers 50 dollars as "taxi fare" for them to fill their Procrit and other drugs at her store. I have seen customers taking candy and chocolate bar off the shelf at another independent while they wait because their HIV medications like Atripla plus whatever other meds will give the owner 200 dollars profit for the day. If the customer did that at CVS, they would be thrown in jail.

But most importantly, independent owners don't have to answer to share holders, schedule a lot of help, and can always offer the cheapest price on a drug....

 

[wickedone]

I am not disagreeing with you... but http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/cvs/financials- CVS as a chain can not be compared to independents. They made 7 billion dollars in profit, and got 3.4 after taxes.... off sales of 1.2 trillion dollars.

Independents have an average of 3 percent profit but that is profit going into the owners hand (depending on how they structure the company). At 3 million dollars in sales, independent owners can easily make 100k+ their salary of 100k... They benefit from not having to pay for back end stuff like warehouses, teams of expensive lawyers, expensive software and hardware, executive officers, and most importantly, have the ability to be flexible.

I don't own an independent but I do work for a lot of them. They don't kill it but they are doing fine as it is.

Those that are not doing so well have the option of choosing to do shady stuff like doing more narcs, double billing, billing for meds not picked up, etc... but not doing it so much they are on Law enforcement or insurance radars.

I worked for one independent owner that gave customers 50 dollars as "taxi fare" for them to fill their Procrit and other drugs at her store. I have seen customers taking candy and chocolate bar off the shelf at another independent while they wait because their HIV medications like Atripla plus whatever other meds will give the owner 200 dollars profit for the day. If the customer did that at CVS, they would be thrown in jail.

But most importantly, independent owners don't have to answer to share holders, schedule a lot of help, and can always offer the cheapest price on a drug....

CVS giftcards anyone? they gave them to everyone. paid a fine and moved on but got the patient.
the big specialty places will wave copays and provide free delivery. check walgreens c and m they do the same...

its all the same game except CVS is years of consolidating independent pharmacy tactics.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

The 13th pharmacy school in California will be Marshall opening in Fall 2016. The OP predicted the California pharmacist job market perfectly.

 

[emergentmd]

I am not a pharmacist but have a slew of family members who are pharmacists. I can tell you the ones that graduated 10 yrs ago have good jobs and likely will never leave. It seems once you find a good job in pharmacy, you plant some big roots. The ones that just graduated (yes some from Feik) have a tough time finding a good job. Pay is going down but not anywhere near the 80k/yr.

I think the pharmacy profession is going down the barrel. Everyone is opening a pharmacy school suckering people at 40k+/yr, promise 120k/yr jobs sitting in an AC room relaxing. The skill set is easy to replace. There is telemedicine taking hold. Why not tele pharmacy?

 

[Lnsean]

I am not a pharmacist but have a slew of family members who are pharmacists. I can tell you the ones that graduated 10 yrs ago have good jobs and likely will never leave. It seems once you find a good job in pharmacy, you plant some big roots. The ones that just graduated (yes some from Feik) have a tough time finding a good job. Pay is going down but not anywhere near the 80k/yr.

I think the pharmacy profession is going down the barrel. Everyone is opening a pharmacy school suckering people at 40k+/yr, promise 120k/yr jobs sitting in an AC room relaxing. The skill set is easy to replace. There is telemedicine taking hold. Why not tele pharmacy?

It's already happening. They have pharmacists that verify remotely from home/central location and dispensed at another location. The only thing stopping this from progressing farther is regulations. At least right now, regulations still require a pharmacist to be present at the location of dispensing.

 

[BearDog]

This thread is about California pharmacy right? I've got an interview at a hospital in the San Joaquin Valley. By my out-of-state standards the pay+relocation help+student loan repayment is out of this world, what's the area like?

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Which pharmacy school did you graduate from?

 

[confettiflyer]

This thread is about California pharmacy right? I've got an interview at a hospital in the San Joaquin Valley. By my out-of-state standards the pay+relocation help+student loan repayment is out of this world, what's the area like?

I bolded the keywords in your post. Look on google maps.

 

[gwarm01]

This thread is about California pharmacy right? I've got an interview at a hospital in the San Joaquin Valley. By my out-of-state standards the pay+relocation help+student loan repayment is out of this world, what's the area like?

Care to give any details? Maybe I should be looking out west.

 

[BearDog]

I guess I didn't realize how much area that included. It's in the Fresno area. A hybrid inpatient position. They've stated that with my experience I'd start at a little more than $10/hr more than I make now. With the little added bonuses, relocation, sign-on, loan re-payment made me think there might be something about the location. Job really sounds great.

 

[confettiflyer]

I guess I didn't realize how much area that included. It's in the Fresno area. A hybrid inpatient position. They've stated that with my experience I'd start at a little more than $10/hr more than I make now. With the little added bonuses, relocation, sign-on, loan re-payment made me think there might be something about the location. Job really sounds great.

So...Fresno. It's the largest city in the United States not served by an interstate. It's in one of the poorest/hottest counties in California, it's about 3 hours from Los Angeles and 3 hours from San Francisco.

It's actually a decently big city, the median home price is $182,000 vs. Silicon Valley (San Jose), whose median house price is $980,000. If desirability, in general, is a function of its median house price, that should give you a pretty strong indication. Also, given the general balance/saturation in the pharmacy labor market, the fact that they're offering a sign-on and relocation package to you should also be an indication of how hard it is to recruit for that area.

That said, I have lots of friends from Fresno/Bakersfield/etc... they seem to be well adjusted and fine, but they all left.

If I didn't get a residency closer to SF, taking a job right out of school in Fresno/Visalia (even more remote)/etc... and putting in 3 years was my plan B.

 

[confettiflyer]

I guess I didn't realize how much area that included. It's in the Fresno area. A hybrid inpatient position. They've stated that with my experience I'd start at a little more than $10/hr more than I make now. With the little added bonuses, relocation, sign-on, loan re-payment made me think there might be something about the location. Job really sounds great.

Addendum here, the job is probably fantastic. The location is what may kill the deal. If you're a single person in your 20's/30's, and having somewhat of a night life is important to you and is a catalyst for long-term plans, look elsewhere.

Also, you say it's $10/hr more than what they're paying you now. I personally wouldn't take a job there for < $75/hr ($70/hr if I were a new grad), pending other benefits. I don't know your experience or background, but there could be a chance a hospital closer to civilization would hire you for about the same amount of money. Food for thought.

Might be time for a California trip to scope things out? That would be money well spent if you're serious and on the fence.

 

[BMBiology]

I don't know why someone would choose to live in Fresno, Kern county and pay California high state income tax. Are those places really better than Arizona?

I would pack up my things and move out of California in a heart beat.

 

[confettiflyer]

I don't know why someone would choose to live in Fresno, Kern county and pay California high state income tax. Are those places really better than Arizona?

I would pack up my things and move out of California in a heart beat.

I think the main driver of affordability in California is 1) housing and 2) income tax in that order. I know most of us in CA get beat up on both ends of that because we like to live near the coast and not deal with temperatures > 80 degrees. BUT, if you get high california pay and manage to only have to deal with taxes (i.e. the cost of a house in Fresno is almost the same as Phoenix), you could end up ahead.

Personally, I'd rather live in Phoenix than Fresno. At the very least, PHX is a big city with lots of things to do and the airport is a major hub.

OH! I know, airport...if you want to fly into and out of an airport whose call sign is FAT, then you should move to Fresno. Hahahah

 

[BearDog]

I am a new grad, just finished residency, and from a rural/lower paying state, so the pay and extras are enticing. But, our quality of life where we are now is pretty great. Would probably be difficult to convince the wife to move. We will check it out when I'm there for an on-site interview. Spend a few extra days.

I read that the area has some of the worst air-pollution too?

 

[confettiflyer]

I'm there for an on-site interview. Spend a few extra days.

I read that the area has some of the worst air-pollution too?

Oh yeah that too...that's another reason people live along the coast (fresh ocean air), all the gunk generated there gets stuck in these hot valleys like San Joaquin. Don't forget all the farm activity.

I think Fresno will be OK in maybe 20-25 years when they build the HSR line and SF is like 90 minutes away.

But yes roam around first, and do try to apply elsewhere. What field is your wife in work-wise?

 

[phrmthrong17]

I'm coming from out of state and looking to apply to retail/LTC positions in the central valley/norcal (sacramento, modesto, SJ, etc). Are there still a lot of openings in the central valley or is the entirety of california now saturated?

 

[ImmunoglobulinE]

Sorry to revive an old thread but I would like any California folks to help me out on this. I didn’t match with a residency for this past year, but I would like to know if the job market in Central Valley for inpatient Pharmacist is still very good. What are my chances of getting an inpatient graveyard night position as a new grad?

 

[BidingMyTime]

What are my chances of getting an inpatient graveyard night position as a new grad?

I don't know about the CA market specifically (other than it's pretty bad), but graveyard positions are highly desirable, and no hospital is going to hire someone without experience to fill one (assuming they even had an opening, usually the graveyard position will be filled internally.) If you were going to get a hospital job without a residency, it will more likely than not be a swing shift position.