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Calling DOs/MDs alike, the AOA/AMA, Student Doctors

Discussion in 'Osteopathic' started by DO Down, May 23, 2009.

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  1. Styria

    Styria

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    The Hawaii College of Pharmacy is a false comparison. It was shut down because they didn't follow regulations on non-accredited schools and lied about it to their students. RVU-COM's provisional accreditation status is not in question.
  2. Chuck's Right Foot

    Chuck's Right Foot Class of 2013

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    1. What effect will the new board have on the education at RVU?
    2. Will there be any lasting effects in the local community that would affect rotations?
    3. What the AOA will find if they choose to investigate.

    I think for-profit status would scare me as a student. Luckily, that wasn't a choice I had to make. I'd like input from any RVU students on their view of these questions, no matter which side you come in one.

    -Chuck's Right Foot, DPM
  3. Chuck's Right Foot

    Chuck's Right Foot Class of 2013

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  4. Lastmanstanding

    Lastmanstanding

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    I'm not looking down on you. That's what, based on reading over some of your old posts, you seem to be doing to the entire DO profession as well any non top-tier MD school.

    If you know a fraction of what you claim you know about Osteopathic Medicine, then of course you also know CO is a very small part of OMT and it would be ludicrous to single CO out as reason to not attend a DO school. But considering you turn your nose up at "second-tier MD schools" its not surprising you would take backward reasoning and find faulty with our profession. That says a lot more about you than it does about Osteopathic Medicine.
  5. Lastmanstanding

    Lastmanstanding

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    I don't find anything ironic or humorous about cliche jokes, that weren't funny the first time, stereotyping elderly people. sorry. People would be up in arms if it were say...a homosexual making a comment, fulfilling a stereotype so I don't see the distinction except that geriatrics don't typically surf SDN and ergo aren't here to defend themselves from puerile insults
  6. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    And all of the information is not even available yet. That is why it is so distressing to someone who choose to go to school here, doesn't want anyone to bail them out, doesn't want to transfer anywhere else because she is a Colorado kid and hears half truths and outright false statements on forums like this one.

    It is like a break up...time and space. We need time to let the dust settle and see how the new board and administration handle this change.

    Oh and to correct the Rocky Mountain News...

    Of the 9 from the board that were released, I understand that 4 were released (including Dean Martin). Not half...I guess this is minor detail to some. Also, if they could at least get the initials of my degree correct, I might be more inclined to put more stock into the story.
  7. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    Anybody else wondering where DO Down is at? Starting a huge flame war and then suddenly choosing not to stand up and continue the discussion.

    Hopefully he or she is secure enough to come to the meeting that we are having tommorow to discuss these issues. I would love to hear more of his or hers point of view.

    Until then, I have to get productive with school work. I hope everyone behaves. I appreciate everyone who hasn't stooped to personal attacks, name calling and otherwise. To be mature, professional and respectful is something we could all stand to do a little better...:xf:

    Liz
  8. Lastmanstanding

    Lastmanstanding

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    Liz,

    I was wondering the same thing. I think that person is, rightfully, running scared. the naysayers want to make this a substantive debate when the jury is still out. They were all too willing to take DO Down's word but think we are attacking his or her character by calling him or her on the out and out lies he or she posted.

    I'll admit it all read like engrossing short story by John Grisham but the problem is the poster took the same amount of creative license and labeled it non fiction.

    Now he/she doesn't want to come on here and defend those assertions to fellow classmates? Color me shocked!
  9. RVU RULZ

    RVU RULZ

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    I love rvuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
  10. brucecanbeatyou

    brucecanbeatyou Junior Park Ranger

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    First of all, this is also the impression I got - my favorite quote - '"I will catch you on the boards," from JayLay. Are you behind? A close second, "I love rvuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu," from, wait for it, RVU RULZ. My 14 year old niece is more discriminate with her repeating letters on her facebook status updates. Seriously, she drives me crazy.

    Second of all, Lastman, really? DrMidlife is one of the most respected contributors to this site. If you want your opinions to be respected on SDN, or in any social arena to which you are new, respect the people whose turf you are entering. Good lord, I would hate to be a nurse in one of the wards where you will be doing clinicals.
  11. m015094

    m015094

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    Exactly!

    I could see the point of discriminating against for-profit schools when they are just "diploma mills." But, this isn't the case with "for-profit" medical schools (here or anywhere else), because the students will have to meet the same standards as all med student to get licensed (USMLE or COMLEX). The "for-profit" status is just an unfortunate taboo they are dealing with.

    And let's get real here. Every school is realistically "for-profit." If you sat in on a budget meeting with your school's board, you'd see that they'll do anything to minimize costs, while trying to bring in more money. You can call a school "non-profit" all you like, but when the President is making 500K/year, the money comes from somewhere.

    I mean what the hell am I thinking? Non-profits are so much more ethical.

    And to the poster that claimed that USUHS is free. Think again. If you think giving up the time, reduced salary as practicing physician, distance from family, and career freedom in military medicine are "free", then think again.
  12. drmsm

    drmsm

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    While I agree that budgets are a portion of all schools and students concern, as well as many admins being grossly overpaid, your statement about 'standards' is not quite on point. Yes, students have to pass 4 tests in either pathway overall, but these anyone can be trailed to pass a test.

    Seriously, do you want a physician who can just pass an exam (that 90% of people pass ANYWAY, based on the bell curve both licensing boards set up) but has very little clinical training or real world knowledge? I don't. This is the very issue with residencies not accepting Caribbean school students. Those schools can do whatever they want and charge whatever they want as long as their students pass USMLE.

    So, you're telling me, students get a 2 year long board prep course and then get sent to some hospital somewhere where they do scut work for two years, but as long as they pass USMLE they're meeting standards? I can't agree. Notably, RVUCOM has a higher standard (than a Caribbean/foreign school technically) because the AOA is overseeing. But the thin line between standards and buying a degree just got thinner when the board and dean were dismissed, either by mysterious or very weak causes (that we currently know of, anyway......I'm still waiting on a full story, but the AOA has apparently made note according to Dr. DiMarco's blog).
  13. Doctor Bob

    Doctor Bob

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    Well that poster was also me.
    And as a military doctor myself, I'll disagree with your assessment of military medicine, but to each his/her own.

    What is a cost to one person is a benefit to another. Just a different way of looking at things.
  14. Handy388

    Handy388

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    we really got to see the quality of selected few students at RVU. I wish the way they carry themselves do not represent RVU student body at large.
  15. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    The majority are certainly not spoken for in our class of 150.

    It is interesting to see how folks act when allowed to be anonymous and have their stones put to the fire.
  16. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    I wish that the military was something that I could take advantage of. Your are correct with your assessment. No matter how you slice it, you have to pay back somehow. Money, time or even having to work during school; something has to be given back. :thumbup:
  17. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    Couldn't agree more...except the nurse on the wards will probably love breaking bruce...isn't the old saying that nurses eat their young and the one time they out rank the doc is when he or she is a student?
  18. brucecanbeatyou

    brucecanbeatyou Junior Park Ranger

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    Just to clarify, it's Lastman, not me - and yeah, he's gonna get owned, but nobody likes dealing with people like that.
    Last edited: May 27, 2009
  19. ohnamaste

    ohnamaste

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    Liz- the "why the change of heart?" question was in reference to the link posted where you said:
    "As a Colorado kid, I was first excited to hear of this school. Now, not so much.
    I will not be applying to, or considering RVU now or in the future.:thumbdown:
    Too, bad though. I would have loved to stay home."
    That sounds about right for you...

    Jarrett- you're awesome. I'm sorry your personality doesn't come across as well through posts, but you're right on in what you're saying.

    I'm also an RVU student and unfortunately we have been under attack from every possible angle- including our own Denver post. The only facts we can share are that WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON!!! I don't know why everyone wants to get on here and act like we have the facts- we don't. We're struggling to get through these last couple weeks while stressing out about unforeseen faculty/Board issues. Very recently we were given a very vague explanation of what's going on and we're scheduled to meet again tomorrow to hopefully get some questions answered.

    We still have an extremely committed faculty and so far our education for the next year doesn't look to be affected. As far as the other politics at our school- we obviously want to keep the medical community updated as we receive more information to retain what little dignity we have left and hopefully work to gain some respect from our future colleagues. I don't anticipate any of us dropping out of RVU or attempting to transfer, so please guys, don't make us feel worse about a situation we don't have much control over and still see hope for. The reason more students from RVU are just now posting is because a fellow student just alerted us to the misleading info others have posted.
  20. Handy388

    Handy388

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    I would like to apologize to the RVU students for any harsh comments I might have stated, inspired by last post.

    Among all those personal attacks and speculation, we seemed to forget that RVU students are the ones who have to face with the struggle from both inside and outside.

    I hope you good luck. Though I do not believe in the for profit medical education system and condemn what is essentially a caribean school on the mainland, the students aren't the culprits.
  21. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Hahaha ... great apology. You should really work on that. Either apologize to the students and recognize that it isn't their fault, or say nothing. A backhanded apology means nothing and looks super insincere.
  22. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    Sorry bruce...I didn't read close enough...

    Your right owned, worked whatever...
  23. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    Hey namaste...digging up some old posts...Thats cool.

    Like most people here on SDN, I had a knee jerk reaction to RVU. When I actually took the time to investigate the school myself and not just believe what I read, I came to realize that RVU had a great mission and vision. I had all of my questions answered regarding the for profit status and I felt good whenever I had contact from anyone representing the school.

    Your right, the faculty here is awesome and commited to helping us achieve our goals.

    I appreciate you clarifiying the change of heart thing. That was a long time ago that I posted that statement. It is not the first, nor will it be the last time I say something stupid. Just ask my lab family!

    Peace
  24. Chuck's Right Foot

    Chuck's Right Foot Class of 2013

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    Now I'm upset. We have a rational RVU student as opposed to the guy who told me I might be a good podiatrist!!!

    Liz, are most of the students not worried about things at RVU right now? I imagine wrapping up the semester is probably the main goal.
  25. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    Thanks for the love...for me it goes a long way.

    Whether you agree or disagree with the concept behind the institution is one thing. But chastizing people who you don't know for choosing to go their own way is just hateful.

    You never know, you may be working side by side with one of us someday and not even know it.
  26. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    The inside joke right now is "is it June 9th yet?" Yeah, I don't want to speak for everyone, but I'm certainly ready for a break and feel a little stretched thin. With less than two weeks and 6 tests to go, I can see the tiny light at the end of the tunnel. Personally I want to finish strong.

    I don't feel consumed by the change, but I will be going to the meeting today with the president, interim dean and assistant dean. I'm interested to hear what they say and if there are any additional recent developments.

    It is interesting to see how people handle themselves under adversity though. You kind of get an idea how they will handle themselves while actually practicing medicine. For me, you always have to see both sides of the story. That is part of what makes medicine so challenging.
  27. Cp22kjer

    Cp22kjer Bottom of the Food Chain

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    Definitely tough times for RVU students right now. Keep us posted. It sucks to finish the year with this issue looming. Hopefully it will be cleared up quickly, though it sounds as if it may take a while.
  28. JPR22

    JPR22 New Member

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    What kinda perplexes me is that is says on their website that there's a tuition freeze class of 2013. I wonder if theres an outside reason for that, or just for good PR.
  29. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    The reason that the board decided to freeze the tuition is because of the fact that we can't get title IV funding until we are fully accredited.

    Personally, I'm very thankful that I don't have to worry about the possibility of a hike in my tuition.
  30. PLDO

    PLDO

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    I'm shocked at all the lengthy med-student responses to what is going on at our school....did you guys get out early or are you not worried about finals? ;)

    I'm taking a tiny break from studying- just wanted to thank all those that are behind us in becoming part of the Osteopathic Family.

    As for those that are out for our students' and Mr. Tien's blood....thanks for the concern. I really wish you could see the amazing people we have here- already helping Colorado. To think that we are sub-par is really funny. Hopefully you'll follow up- and look at our board scores and talk to our happy patients in the future. Don't worry, we won't hold it against you when we meet as colleagues.

    Back to the books for me.....
  31. JPR22

    JPR22 New Member

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    forgive my ignorance, but what does title IV have to do with tuition freezing. If students can afford $39k/yr, they could surely afford 45k the next year with private lenders?
  32. Concubine

    Concubine PDE5 inhibited

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    I'm not really worried about the first incoming classes at RVU, I'm sure they will be up to par. There is at least an initial incentive for Mr. Tien to put on a good face. I'm more worried about the potential long term affects on medical education from RVU and thus future medical student bodies. It's not only RVU though. The increase in medical student enrollment without increases in residency slots worries me at least as much. I really do wish you guys the best.

    As for getting out early, hell no. I'm knee deep in the third block of neuroanatomy, with only a little over a week left. :)
  33. PLDO

    PLDO

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    Before attending school, my liberal, anti-capitalistic, peaceful ways had an issue with the idea of "for profit"....but I REALLY wanted to be a D.O. and be in Colorado. Frankly I felt like I could really trust the staff and folks at RVU with my future. That was then....as soon as school started my only issues were getting through exams- just like all med students.

    BUT I when I take a step back I can realize the potential concern for future classes (after the profits start). But, I have to keep optimistic that our class and those after ours will be instrumental in making sure that our school continues with it's goals and demonstration of excellence.
  34. HarMegido

    HarMegido

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    That was a fine apology. He apologized for the way he handled it but stands by his beliefs. If he doesn't like for-profit then he doesn't like for profit, he's got that right to say it.
  35. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

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    No problem to forgive what you define as ignorance...It takes a big person to admit why they aren't sure about something.

    Basically it is a show of good faith for the class of 2012 and 2013 to offset the slightly higher interest rate that we pay with private lenders. And with the situation of our ecomony we just can't borrow as much as we want. We can only borrow up to the cost of attendance (around 60K), like any other school I imagine.

    CU SOM, they recently increased their tuition another 14% or so, affecting current and future students.
  36. m015094

    m015094

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    The only reason that 90% of people taking the USMLE pass the first time is because US med-school admission is so selective. This is easy to see when you compare US med schools to Caribbean med schools with less stringent admission criteria -- there USMLE pass rate drops like a rock. So, yes, the tests are there for a reason and obviously the NBME feels that they are a good judge of whether or not a student is ready to become a doctor or not. And don't forget that Step 2 is a practical, so it DOES judge ones clinical experience.

    Hell, I think that if you could somehow pass the USMLE without going to med school , you should be given a license, but I don't make the rules (and I don't actually think someone could ever do this).
  37. Instatewaiter

    Instatewaiter But...There's a troponin

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    I agree about the pass rates. FMG pass rate is ~50%

    But passing the USMLE is necessary but not sufficient. Just by reading a book you could pass all of the steps of the USMLE even the CS portion of step 2. Step 2 CS is more about going through the motions and is not a good indicator of real clinical acumen. Frankly it is a bul1**** test where it is more impt you do each part and get the check mark than do a thorough job or do it right. It has been extended from FMGs to all US students because it is a money maker and nothing more. The test costs 1100 bucks- 15,000 US students- you do the math.

    You need the real clinical experience b/c the experience goes way beyond what you learn in books. That's why 3rd year has such a steep learning curve

    So I agree the USMLE is needed but it is not a great measure of your clinical abilities, only your knowledge base. If you can't hear rales, the S3 and see the JVD, you wont be able to tell the person is in CHF no matter how many times you have read Robbins or Harrison's.
  38. Dissected

    Dissected When in doubt, cut it out

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    Im curious how that meeting went :confused:
  39. DrMidlife

    DrMidlife has an opinion Gold Donor

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    I'm not, unless one of those first year med students is a lawyer, well versed in business law, who has the time and the interest to not only go to the meeting but ask hard questions. The information these students need isn't going to be offered up willingly by the administration. How on earth is a typical first year med student supposed to know how to even assess the situation? If I were there, I'd forget the AOA petition, and instead fundraise to have a law firm represent the students.
  40. drmsm

    drmsm

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    I understand your point; however my point is that the test itself (both USMLE and COMLEX) are set up that 90% of takers in a given period pass. If a large group (say 100,000) over a year take the exam those results are averaged to allow approximately 90,000 to pass, despite some scores being lower than say, the previous year. The two digit score is set in the 70s and above to satisfy state and federal licensing authorities of a number that sounds good (you know, in secondary schools, 70 is a pass, right?) I'm not making light of this, it really is a bunch of playing with numbers.

    The point regarding FMGs is well taken, I realize their standards are lower and thus why their schools' pre-clinical years often are like a board prep course. The further point regarding Step 2 CE/COMLEX PE is well regarded and correct, I found it horrifically oversimplified, just a way to again satisfy licensing agencies and get 1,000 out of each student. Most of the failures on COMLEX PE these days are on the humanities section, which amount to less diagnostic ability and more "being nice" to the patients (which is important, but shouldn't be the primary focus).

    The COMLEX version is only held at one location (near Philly) which further makes students spend travel money that could be used for interviews or other costs. I am fortunate enough to be within driving distance but it's quite the imposition for those from Midwestern/Western schools.
  41. Dissected

    Dissected When in doubt, cut it out

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    still curious what they said....at least its something
  42. simplecountrydo

    simplecountrydo attendings biatch

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    as a soon to be 3rd year resident who graduated from a small, little known school in the northwest corner of PA that is now one of the largest med schools in the country, i need to inform all of you students to open your eyes! these problems will continue to occur regardless of tax status because all osteopathic schools are private schools. even michigan state com isnt a true public state school. concentrate on your studies and let the powers in charge do what they want. as long as you receive/keep your coca accreditation you will be able to matriculate to an osteopathic res program (maybe not an allo one, but if thats your goal you shouldnt be complaining). the schools are all businesses and the way they run their stuff may scare you, even upset your ethics, but will not stop you from passing your boards or receiving an accredited transcript following graduation. pikeville had accreditation problems when they started and they have incredible faculty and students now. if there is one thing ive learned its the DO world is very small and no one gives a crap where you went to school after you pass step 3, they just care about you. are you good at what you do? so quit whining and get good at what you do. nuff said!
  43. HarMegido

    HarMegido

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    :thumbup:
  44. ohnamaste

    ohnamaste

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    Nicely said. The meeting went well, but again they left us with a vague explanation of what really occurred. The timing of everything was horrible so close to finals, but I think now that the hype has calmed down a bit everyone is realizing things are going to be OK. I think it's safe to say a majority of the students are just bummed to be losing so many great, caring faculty. I think the rest of the community would agree it's also a little distressing to see a Board of Directors overruled by one man. Our most recent loss is Dr. Greg Smith who resigned for his own reasons and I personally respect him for that. He's worked extremely hard to set up programs for our rotations and I don't think he'd leave unless he felt it was well established and in good hands. RVU really is a great school and now that I'm so close to surviving the first year I can say I'm happy to be here... It was really rough and frustrating, but we made it.
  45. DO Anes

    DO Anes ASA Member

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    Stockholm syndrome.
  46. TXDO

    TXDO USMLE/COMLEX Terminator

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    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Guys,
    Please keep your posts in boundary. We are here to discuss the issues with an amicable attitude, therefore, please do not bash each other.

    Thanks:)
  47. Handy388

    Handy388

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2008
    Messages:
    1,057
    Status:
    Medical Student
    who is in charge of rotations now?
  48. PETRADOCS

    PETRADOCS

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Who remains on the Board and who does not? And what happen to change the board? I really feel uneasy about the rapid changes- good luck on the finals!
  49. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    507
    Location:
    Colorful Colorado
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Dr. Thomas Told DO FACOFO-dist
  50. paramediclizard

    paramediclizard Powder chaser

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    507
    Location:
    Colorful Colorado
    Status:
    Medical Student
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    Thanks for the wishes on finals...so far so go for me

    As for whose is in the board, the school is in the process of interviewing candiates to fill the seats of those that left. Not 100% sure on names, so I am not going to give false infomation. Time will tell, but I still have 100% trust in my school.

    Happy Saturday, back to re-watching my lectures and reading.:thumbup:

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