Can a ND become a Psychiatrist?

[pdxic1]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. I just graudated with a BS in psychology as a pre-med student. I have taken all pre-med classes at my state college except for Anatomy and Physiology. I have heard mixed feedback on whether a naturopathic doctor could get licensed as a Psychiatrist. I want to stay in Oregon and may consider moving to California or Washington state. This has limited my options for medical school. I have a 3.76 gpa and had the honor of being selected to be a organic chemistry workshop leader. However I really suck at timed standardized tests. I am now in my thirties and have ADHD. It just so happens Portland has one of the top naturopathic programs in the country. The program does not require me to take MCATs. so I was wondering, can a ND become a Psychiatrist? I would appreciate to hear your opinions. Must I go to a traditional medical school?

The reason I want to work as a Psychiatrist is because I have recently began working in a secure residential facility which treats adults who suffer from schizophrenia. I really love working closely with patients and want to do more than just skills training and crisis intervention. I am also a scientist. I absolutely loved studying chemistry and drugs. I have a publication for when worked with a graduate student on his PhD project. I find I am more and more interested in how drugs effect us physiologically and psychologically. I also am leaning towards earning a ND because traditional medical schools seem to be limited in treating people only physically and utilizing an emergency medicine model. I believe that physical and mental health are integrated.

Thank you for reading my post! I look forward to hearing your opinions and suggestions! : )

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[New_Slang]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. I just graudated with a BS in psychology as a pre-med student. I have taken all pre-med classes at my state college except for Anatomy and Physiology. I have heard mixed feedback on whether a naturopathic doctor could get licensed as a Psychiatrist. I want to stay in Oregon and may consider moving to California or Washington state. This has limited my options for medical school. I have a 3.76 gpa and had the honor of being selected to be a organic chemistry workshop leader. However I really suck at timed standardized tests. I am now in my thirties and have ADHD. It just so happens Portland has one of the top naturopathic programs in the country. The program does not require me to take MCATs. so I was wondering, can a ND become a Psychiatrist? I would appreciate to hear your opinions. Must I go to a traditional medical school?

The reason I want to work as a Psychiatrist is because I have recently began working in a secure residential facility which treats adults who suffer from schizophrenia. I really love working closely with patients and want to do more than just skills training and crisis intervention. I am also a scientist. I absolutely loved studying chemistry and drugs. I have a publication for when worked with a graduate student on his PhD project. I find I am more and more interested in how drugs effect us physiologically and psychologically. I also am leaning towards earning a ND because traditional medical schools seem to be limited in treating people only physically and utilizing an emergency medicine model. I believe that physical and mental health are integrated.

Thank you for reading my post! I look forward to hearing your opinions and suggestions! : )

No. ND's have no training that would allow them to prescribe any pharmaceutical drugs. You have to go to an accredited medical school to become a psychiatrist, an MD or DO.

 

[medic86]

Blugh.

 

[gyrfalcon]

I also am leaning towards earning a ND because traditional medical schools seem to be limited in treating people only physically and utilizing an emergency medicine model. I believe that physical and mental health are integrated.

I think you will find that quite a few MD and DO schools (perhaps especially DO) take the approach that you want. Test-taking is a skill that can be learned. If you are getting a 3.76 then you almost certainly have the ability to do well on the MCAT if you put sufficient effort into studying. Going to ND school with your goals would be a waste of time.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

If you want to do talk therapy you can become a clinical psychologist. Psychiatrists can also do this while prescribing medication for severe mental disorders. Both are legitimate and great jobs that it sounds like you'd enjoy. If you don't care about handing out prescriptions or not then becoming a clinical psychologist might be an easier path.

Naturpath "training" is not a shortcut to basically being a doctor. If you have any self-respect or are not a ***** do not do this.

 

[DJ2MD]

No. ND's have no training that would allow them to prescribe any pharmaceutical drugs. You have to go to an accredited medical school to become a psychiatrist, an MD or DO.

This would be true if OP was not from Oregon/Washington. What NDs can do varies depending on the state. In Washington, NDs can prescribe anything except antibiotics and narcotics. In Oregon from what I know the limits are even lower.

I personally have problems with NDs being able to prescribe. Their education included freaking homeopathy- I personally don't think anyone who believes in homeopathy should ever be able to prescribe anything. But the truth is depending on which state you are in you are able to. That being said, from what I know, the purpose of NDs having prescribing rights is to have them be primary care providers. I think it is incredibly difficult if not possibly as an ND to specialize. The profession is not taken seriously by most other medical professionals.

I personally would encourage OP to go do MD or DO if you want to specialize. And also look into ND curriculums around your area. They are really good at making their recruits to believe they are becoming "doctors" when they are not- it sounds scam-y to me most of the times.

Another route, if you don't want to do MD or DO is becoming a Pysch NP. There are a few programs in Washington and Oregon for that.

 

[New_Slang]

This would be true if OP was not from Oregon/Washington. What NDs can do varies depending on the state. In Washington, NDs can prescribe anything except antibiotics and narcotics. In Oregon from what I know the limits are even lower.

I personally have problems with NDs being able to prescribe. Their education included freaking homeopathy- I personally don't think anyone who believes in homeopathy should ever be able to prescribe anything. But the truth is depending on which state you are in you are able to. That being said, from what I know, the purpose of NDs having prescribing rights is to have them be primary care providers. I think it is incredibly difficult if not possibly as an ND to specialize. The profession is not taken seriously by most other medical professionals.

I personally would encourage OP to go do MD or DO if you want to specialize. And also look into ND curriculums around your area. They are really good at making their recruits to believe they are becoming "doctors" when they are not- it sounds scam-y to me most of the times.

Another route, if you don't want to do MD or DO is becoming a Pysch NP. There are a few programs in Washington and Oregon for that.

I had no idea about ND's in Oregon/Washington. I definitely have some qualms with that. I know someone with a Master's in Chinese medicine and his patients call him "Doctor"... and he doesn't correct them.

 

[deleted407021]

No, only physicians are qualified or eligible to enter medical residencies, including psychiatry.

 

[sovereign0]

I also am leaning towards earning a ND because traditional medical schools seem to be limited in treating people only physically and utilizing an emergency medicine model. I believe that physical and mental health are integrated.

What makes you say that? You seem to think that MD/DO schools totally ignore mental health in treating patients, which is a ridiculous statement, especially when implying that NDs can provide better healthcare.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. I just graudated with a BS in psychology as a pre-med student. I have taken all pre-med classes at my state college except for Anatomy and Physiology. I have heard mixed feedback on whether a naturopathic doctor could get licensed as a Psychiatrist. I want to stay in Oregon and may consider moving to California or Washington state. This has limited my options for medical school. I have a 3.76 gpa and had the honor of being selected to be a organic chemistry workshop leader. However I really suck at timed standardized tests. I am now in my thirties and have ADHD. It just so happens Portland has one of the top naturopathic programs in the country. The program does not require me to take MCATs. so I was wondering, can a ND become a Psychiatrist? I would appreciate to hear your opinions. Must I go to a traditional medical school?

The reason I want to work as a Psychiatrist is because I have recently began working in a secure residential facility which treats adults who suffer from schizophrenia. I really love working closely with patients and want to do more than just skills training and crisis intervention. I am also a scientist. I absolutely loved studying chemistry and drugs. I have a publication for when worked with a graduate student on his PhD project. I find I am more and more interested in how drugs effect us physiologically and psychologically. I also am leaning towards earning a ND because traditional medical schools seem to be limited in treating people only physically and utilizing an emergency medicine model. I believe that physical and mental health are integrated.

Thank you for reading my post! I look forward to hearing your opinions and suggestions! : )

]

you and i define honor very differently

 

[organdonor]

"Can an ND become a psychiatrist?"

Yes. After attending an MD or DO school and applying to psychiatry residencies.

If MD or DO schools do not appeal to you, consider clinical psyCHOLogy.

Licensed clinical social worker (lcsw) is another option.

 

[deleted407021]

]

you and i define honor very differently

"Bestowed upon me by the powers that be was the greatest of honors. That of getting to poorly grade lab reports and generally be useless."

 

[deleted480308]

Nds aren't physicians, sorry

 

[allantois]

Keep in mind that becoming a psychologist is compatible in length to becoming a psychiatrist.

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

Keep in mind that becoming a psychologist is compatible in length to becoming a psychiatrist.

My father got his Ph.D. in Psychology. I'd almost go so far as to say it's worse. Obviously it's not, but he had to compose a 230-page dissertation on ONE TOPIC. Good lord, writer's block so bad it'd back your brain up for miles.

 

[deleted407021]

Keep in mind that becoming a psychologist is compatible in length to becoming a psychiatrist.

Not to mention arguably more competitive.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Not to mention arguably more competitive.

Really?!

 

[deleted407021]

Really?!

I'm honestly glad I'm applying to med school and not to clinical psych programs. The people who get into good PhD/PsyD programs have tons of research, very high GPAs (often around 3.8+), internship experience and often masters degrees.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

I'm honestly glad I'm applying to med school and not to clinical psych programs. The people who get into good PhD/PsyD programs have tons of research, very high GPAs (often around 3.8+), internship experience and often masters degrees.

What's the acceptance rate and why is it so competitive?

Do PsyD's make a lot?

 

[Azete]

A lot of justifiable ND hate here, as the vast majority are either frauds or total ignoramuses. To be honest no competent student, even huge alternative medicine proponents, should choose ND over MD/DO.

However, I must admit that there are some NDs that are very successful in the way they conduct their practice and even respected by many MD physicians. Few and far between, but it happens.

 

[DrDarce]

Do some research on ND's and the process on becoming a psychiatrist before posting on here.

EDIT: and by research I mean look at a Wikipedia article on psychiatrists (it's that easy)

 

[deleted407021]

What's the acceptance rate and why is it so competitive?

Do PsyD's make a lot?

It hovers around 10% or so, from what I'm told. Some programs are much lower or higher.

Think of how many psychology, sociology and related majors there are, then imagine how many decide to apply to clinical psych programs. There's a ton of interest, but it must not be for money, because clinical psychologists don't exactly make bank.

 

[deleted480308]

It hovers around 10% or so, from what I'm told. Some programs are much lower or higher.

Think of how many psychology, sociology and related majors there are, then imagine how many decide to apply to clinical psych programs. There's a ton of interest, but it must not be for money, because clinical psychologists don't exactly make bank.

It's because a bs in psych is worthless and they have to continue to get employed

 

[Psai]

My father got his Ph.D. in Psychology. I'd almost go so far as to say it's worse. Obviously it's not, but he had to compose a 230-page dissertation on ONE TOPIC. Good lord, writer's block so bad it'd back your brain up for miles.

I can only imagine the margins and spacing on that paper

 

[genericpremedstudent]

No. ND's have no training that would allow them to prescribe any pharmaceutical drugs. You have to go to an accredited medical school to become a psychiatrist, an MD or DO.

Except ND's have prescribing rights in OP's state

 

[New_Slang]

Except ND's have prescribing rights in OP's state

I already admitted ignorance to that upthread.

 

[W19]

Nds aren't physicians, sorry

But they are called naturopathic physicians

 

[deleted480308]

But they are called naturopathic physicians

not by anyone who knows better

 

[Mad Jack]

But they are called naturopathic physicians

I thought it stood for "Not a Doctor" personally.

 

[deleted407021]

I thought it stood for "Not a Doctor" personally.

Love the new avatar lol

 

[efle]

top naturopathic program

what a bizarre phrase...

With a BS in psych, aren't you too much of a scientist to tolerate the ND world?

 

[deleted407021]

what a bizarre phrase...

With a BS in psych, aren't you too much of a scientist to tolerate the ND world?

I recently sat through 20 minutes of high school remedial genetics because fully half of Personality Psych class didn't understand what inheritance or what "the big 'H' and little 'H'" meant. I've taken grad level human genetics, so I just kinda stared at the floor.

A poll given by my professor last semester showed that over 50% of the people in my Social Psychology class did not believe in the theory of evolution.

I've heard "It's just a theory" said all to often by psych majors.


So nah, it doesn't surprise me to see a psych major getting into the "alternative medicine" stuff.

 

[DoctorDrewOutsidetheLines]

OP, I am really glad you asked this question. I'm a granola cruncher and my Mecca is Portland, I hope to one day move up to the Pac NW, so I feel you. I was a barefoot Venice Beach raw foodist hippie in So Cal and I'm a huge proponent of natural medicine.

It sounds like you need a program that fully aligns with your beliefs and treats the patient holistically. But unfortunately, to get any respect or credibility (and probably the license to medicate), you'd have to go the MD/DO route. Just the other day I was researching ND programs and honestly, I'd much rather have an MD and then study on my own or maybe even take alternative workshops or seminars in my "quack medicine" interests than attend a school that won't open many doors further down the line and could possibly hurt me in the long run.

And for all you negative Nancies out there, Chiropractors used to be considered quack doctors. Ahem. But guess who's the first person you call when you throw your back out?

Also from your post it sounds like a major consideration for you to go ND is not having to take the MCAT. I am also against standardized tests, but if you want to win in this world, you gotta play the game so you can flip the switch on them. So man or woman-up, crack down, pop some Adderall and get thee to a Kaplan class and kick that exam's butt. And maybe research MD/DO programs that are more in tuned with your personal philosophy to patient wellness.

I too believe Physical and Mental Health are integrated. Have you considered Family Medicine? UCSD has a combined Family Medicine/Psych residency that works specifically with the homeless population and they have a secure residential facility. I know that's years and years away, but the great thing about the Western medicine track is it exposes you to all sorts of pathways and you might find your niche in something you haven't yet considered.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Psai]

I recently sat through 20 minutes of high school remedial genetics because fully half of Personality Psych class didn't understand what inheritance or what "the big 'H' and little 'H'" meant. I've taken grad level human genetics, so I just kinda stared at the floor.

A poll given by my professor last semester showed that over 50% of the people in my Social Psychology class did not believe in the theory of evolution.

I've heard "It's just a theory" said all to often by psych majors.


So nah, it doesn't surprise me to see a psych major getting into the "alternative medicine" stuff.

It's true that it's just a theory. So is the theory of gravity. And yet we aren't flying off into space for some reason...

 

[jl lin]

A lot of justifiable ND hate here, as the vast majority are either frauds or total ignoramuses. To be honest no competent student, even huge alternative medicine proponents, should choose ND over MD/DO.

However, I must admit that there are some NDs that are very successful in the way they conduct their practice and even respected by many MD physicians. Few and far between, but it happens.

Without causing a blow-up, honestly ^ the above is true. As difficult at times as it may seem to find the best allopathic/osteopathic physician for one's particular medical needs is, it's many, many times harder to find a reputable, respectable, and reasonable ND, who advises well in wellness practices. No legitimate ND tries to diminish the reputable medical practices of sound allopaths/osteopaths. The ND's goal is about optimal wellness for each, individual patient in the way of nutrition, exercise, etc. Yes, other physicians share this, but they are overloaded with patients with chronic or acute disease issues, which require the utmost focus, based on research and best practices in medicine today. So it's tough to get physicians to spend a lot of time on optimal wellness practices, b/c they honestly don't have a lot of time for it.

 

[NickNaylor]

And for all you negative Nancies out there, Chiropractors used to be considered quack doctors. Ahem. But guess who's the first person you call when you throw your back out?

That is essentially all chiropractic has been useful for, and even then the scope within which chiropractic is effective is extremely limited.

They are still, for the most part, quacks.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

OP, I am really glad you asked this question. I'm a granola cruncher and my Mecca is Portland, I hope to one day move up to the Pac NW, so I feel you. I was a barefoot Venice Beach raw foodist hippie in So Cal and I'm a huge proponent of natural medicine.

It sounds like you need a program that fully aligns with your beliefs and treats the patient holistically. But unfortunately, to get any respect or credibility (and probably the license to medicate), you'd have to go the MD/DO route. Just the other day I was researching ND programs and honestly, I'd much rather have an MD and then study on my own or maybe even take alternative workshops or seminars in my "quack medicine" interests than attend a school that won't open many doors further down the line and could possibly hurt me in the long run.

And for all you negative Nancies out there, Chiropractors used to be considered quack doctors. Ahem. But guess who's the first person you call when you throw your back out?

a fcking orthopedist if you want it actually taken care of.

chiropractors are quacks, pollyanna.

Also from your post it sounds like a major consideration for you to go ND is not having to take the MCAT. I am also against standardized tests, but if you want to win in this world, you gotta play the game so you can flip the switch on them. So man or woman-up, crack down, pop some Adderall and get thee to a Kaplan class and kick that exam's butt. And maybe research MD/DO programs that are more in tuned with your personal philosophy to patient wellness.

I too believe Physical and Mental Health are integrated. Have you considered Family Medicine? UCSD has a combined Family Medicine/Psych residency that works specifically with the homeless population and they have a secure residential facility. I know that's years and years away, but the great thing about the Western medicine track is it exposes you to all sorts of pathways and you might find your niche in something you haven't yet considered.

Best of luck to you.

a fcking "huge proponent of natural medicine" advocating abuse of prescription medication. super strong work there pal.

 

[Holmwood]

a fcking orthopedist if you want it actually taken care of.

chiropractors are quacks, pollyanna.

a fcking "huge proponent of natural medicine" advocating abuse of prescription medication. super strong work there pal.

Ah, I think talking colloquially about prescription drug use and self-labeling of psychiatric disorders is a thing these days. I wouldn't read too much into what us youngsters say.

 

[jl lin]

a fcking orthopedist if you want it actually taken care of.

chiropractors are quacks, pollyanna.

a fcking "huge proponent of natural medicine" advocating abuse of prescription medication. super strong work there pal.

Actually, my family member received surgical treatment for joint deterioration for a renowned neurosurgeon. She was firm on this and the top of the line neurosurgeon. He ended up doing an amazing job, and incredibly, she has a great increase in quality of life since that surgery, going on 15 years ago.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Actually, my family member received surgical treatment for joint deterioration for a renowned neurosurgeon. She was firm on this and the top of the line neurosurgeon. He ended up doing an amazing job, and incredibly, she has a great increase in quality of life since that surgery, going on 15 years ago.

Spine is a combined discipline so that'd be a perfectly reasonable option too. Don't think that's an incredibvle turn of events, more the actually expected result

 

[DrDarce]

OP, I am really glad you asked this question. I'm a granola cruncher and my Mecca is Portland, I hope to one day move up to the Pac NW, so I feel you. I was a barefoot Venice Beach raw foodist hippie in So Cal and I'm a huge proponent of natural medicine.

It sounds like you need a program that fully aligns with your beliefs and treats the patient holistically. But unfortunately, to get any respect or credibility (and probably the license to medicate), you'd have to go the MD/DO route. Just the other day I was researching ND programs and honestly, I'd much rather have an MD and then study on my own or maybe even take alternative workshops or seminars in my "quack medicine" interests than attend a school that won't open many doors further down the line and could possibly hurt me in the long run.

And for all you negative Nancies out there, Chiropractors used to be considered quack doctors. Ahem. But guess who's the first person you call when you throw your back out?

Also from your post it sounds like a major consideration for you to go ND is not having to take the MCAT. I am also against standardized tests, but if you want to win in this world, you gotta play the game so you can flip the switch on them. So man or woman-up, crack down, pop some Adderall and get thee to a Kaplan class and kick that exam's butt. And maybe research MD/DO programs that are more in tuned with your personal philosophy to patient wellness.

I too believe Physical and Mental Health are integrated. Have you considered Family Medicine? UCSD has a combined Family Medicine/Psych residency that works specifically with the homeless population and they have a secure residential facility. I know that's years and years away, but the great thing about the Western medicine track is it exposes you to all sorts of pathways and you might find your niche in something you haven't yet considered.

Best of luck to you.

I read your post as sarcastic to the Op for the first half then I realized you were serious. Lol. And for the record if I throw my back out I'm calling a real doctor, not a chiropractor. Although I don't doubt some of them may be able to treat me, I'm still going to see an MD/DO. Also you probably shouldn't take adderall unless it's been prescribed to you.. just sit down and focus.

 

[Giovanotto]

It's true that it's just a theory. So is the theory of gravity. And yet we aren't flying off into space for some reason...

I hear this way too often. The principle of gravity is not a theory, it's a law. The "Law of Gravitation".

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I hear this way too often. The principle of gravity is not a theory, it's a law. The "Law of Gravitation".

false. you need to expand your knowledge of physics.

in any case the boundary between theory and law is arbitrary.

 

[Instatewaiter]

And for all you negative Nancies out there, Chiropractors used to be considered quack doctors. Ahem. But guess who's the first person you call when you throw your back out?.

A physiatrist? A PT? A sportsmedicine specialist? A massage therapist? Or more likely no one since more than 90% of acute back pain resolves on its own. This is even higher when you have a cohort of patients who is our age.

You act as if chiropractors aren't quacks. Some claim to cure asthma and ear aches with back manipulation. Many chiropractors are still quacks selling their snake oil. If they just stuck to back pain, I don't think too many people would complain.

 

[jl lin]

Spine is a combined discipline so that'd be a perfectly reasonable option too. Don't think that's an incredibvle turn of events, more the actually expected result

Well, I don't necessarily, but thank you RU. An orthopedic surgeon perhaps could have completed the surgery, but family member's choice was top of the line both for training/experience and focus. I fully agree with their choice and decision.

Training can be the difference between 6 or 7 years vs. 4 or 5 years. Obviously you get the NS that is not just specializing fully on the brain in such cases such as that of my fm. Also, only neurosurgeons are trained during their six or seven year residency to perform procedures inside the lining of the spinal canal called the dura. The sheer numbers of work/experience here is quite significant.

To be fair, as a surgical ICU RN, I am very picky when it comes to choosing any kind of surgeon. I think a number of people in America can be quite picky in this regard. When it comes to surgery, you want someone that is beyond on the ball. And sure, I know that they have residents and fellows in the OR with them; but I know the great ones will not shirk from their level of skill, understanding, adeptness, and accountability.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Well, I don't necessarily, but thank you RU. An orthopedic surgeon perhaps could have completed the surgery, but family member's choice was top of the line both for training/experience and focus. I fully agree with their choice and decision.

Training can be the difference between 6 or 7 years vs. 4 or 5 years. Obviously you get the NS that is not just specializing fully on the brain in such cases such as that of my fm. Also, only neurosurgeons are trained during their six or seven year residency to perform procedures inside the lining of the spinal canal called the dura. The sheer numbers of work/experience here is quite significant.

To be fair, as a surgical ICU RN, I am very picky when it comes to choosing any kind of surgeon. I think a number of people in America can be quite picky in this regard. When it comes to surgery, you want someone that is beyond on the ball. And sure, I know that they have residents and fellows in the OR with them; but I know the great ones will not shirk from their level of skill, understanding, adeptness, and accountability.

As a SICU RN, frankly you still don't know very much about surgical training, esp given your post. It also seems you have very little idea of what actually goes on in an OR but that's really neither here nor there.

There is no orthopedic spine surgeon who has trained less than 6 years, and there is pretty much no neurosurgeon who has trained less than 7. Although 2 of those 7 NS years are sort of or entirely in the lab.

Orthopedic spine (and onc) surgeons do dural and epidural work so not really sure what you're going on about. Intradurally, sure, not too many ortho people want to deal with that sht because frankly most orthos don't go into the field to make their patients incontinent. Also, thanks for explaining to me what the dura is. ;-)

I think you and a number of people in America can be as picky as you want about surgeons but there's very little chance you have any idea as to how to make that decision.

 

[Giovanotto]

false. you need to expand your knowledge of physics.

in any case the boundary between theory and law is arbitrary.

Are you sure? I thought there were theories that explain gravity, but gravity itself is a law.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Are you sure? I thought there were theories that explain gravity, but gravity itself is a law.

There's Newton's "Law" of gravitation but like the rest of his laws there are problems in light of modern physics. (e.g. propagation speed of gravity)

 

[IslandStyle808]

So nah, it doesn't surprise me to see a psych major getting into the "alternative medicine" stuff.

I don't think I could easily make that assumption, especially with those who haven't earned their degree yet. But that's just me.

 

[Psai]

Are you sure? I thought there were theories that explain gravity, but gravity itself is a law.

I'm not sure what you mean. Nothing "explains" gravity. Gravity does not seem to jive with strong force, weak force and electromagnetism which is why people are trying to explain various inconsistencies with the concept of dark matter. The so-called laws of physics are derived from theoretical principles. These theories allow for derivation of equations as well as predictions which can be validated by experiments. The more experiments that coincide with the predictions made by the theory, the more solid the theory is.

As a SICU RN, frankly you still don't know very much about surgical training, esp given your post. It also seems you have very little idea of what actually goes on in an OR but that's really neither here nor there.

There is no orthopedic spine surgeon who has trained less than 6 years, and there is pretty much no neurosurgeon who has trained less than 7. Although 2 of those 7 NS years are sort of or entirely in the lab.

Orthopedic spine (and onc) surgeons do dural and epidural work so not really sure what you're going on about. Intradurally, sure, not too many ortho people want to deal with that sht because frankly most orthos don't go into the field to make their patients incontinent. Also, thanks for explaining to me what the dura is. ;-)

I think you and a number of people in America can be as picky as you want about surgeons but there's very little chance you have any idea as to how to make that decision.

jl lin is always going on about things she doesn't understand. She thinks that applying to medical school as a nurse with icu experience means that she understands many things about medical education.