Can graduates from the Big 4 practice in countries outside U.S.?

[bellab17]

Hey guys and Skip,

I just wanted to know what are all the options for graduates of the big 4 schools in terms of residency and other countries in addition to the US they can practice in.

I am interested in practicing global medicine so wanted to know if they would have that option?

Skip, would you happen to know if this is possible? Thx

Thanks so much!

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[Skip Intro]

I'm really not sure. If they are in IMED then I believe most foreign sovereign countries will recognize your degree, but there may be additional requirements (testing, training, etc.) just like the U.S. in order to practice. Best to check with individual countries probably.

Do you have an idea about where you want to go after your training is done? I know groups like Médecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders) will place you pretty much anywhere they have a need. Provided you are trained and credentialed already.

-Skip

 

[bedevilled ben]

Hey guys and Skip,

I just wanted to know what are all the options for graduates of the big 4 schools in terms of residency and other countries in addition to the US they can practice in.

I am interested in practicing global medicine so wanted to know if they would have that option?

Skip, would you happen to know if this is possible? Thx

Thanks so much!

Skip is right, this is a country-by-country basis. I have an interest in practicing internationally, and it was one of my reasons for not going the DO route, as there are some countries that still do not recognize the degree for general practice. So far every country I have looked up will accept SGU and Ross based on their ECFMG status. I would guess that SABA and AUC are as well but I don't have any direct experience with them.

 

[Mr.Happy]

Skip is right, this is a country-by-country basis. I have an interest in practicing internationally, and it was one of my reasons for not going the DO route, as there are some countries that still do not recognize the degree for general practice. So far every country I have looked up will accept SGU and Ross based on their ECFMG status. I would guess that SABA and AUC are as well but I don't have any direct experience with them.

I agree with you that graduates of American osteopathic medical program are restricted in some countries but I believe the situation is improving for osteopathic physicians.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx


Although if your goal is to practice in non-Western countries or in a developing setting, I recommend that you choose a school with lower tuition than any of the Big 4 schools since the salary you will receive will be much much lower than what you will receive in the US/Canada/UK/Australia etc. I know someone who graduated from a low tier low tuition Carib medical school who is now practicing in Africa (his goal before he started medical school) and earns $2000 a month after tax. He's very glad he didn't go to any of the Big 4 schools, otherwise paying back tuition would be very hard.

 

[bedevilled ben]

I agree with you that graduates of American osteopathic medical program are restricted in some countries but I believe the situation is improving for osteopathic physicians.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx


Although if your goal is to practice in non-Western countries or in a developing setting, I recommend that you choose a school with lower tuition than any of the Big 4 schools since the salary you will receive will be much much lower than what you will receive in the US/Canada/UK/Australia etc. I know someone who graduated from a low tier low tuition Carib medical school who is now practicing in Africa (his goal before he started medical school) and earns $2000 a month after tax. He's very glad he didn't go to any of the Big 4 schools, otherwise paying back tuition would be very hard.

I appreciate the insight, and you're absolutely correct that salaries outside of the US can make loan repayment difficult. My interest in international medicine is more at the population level and its relevancy to global health, and I am more interested in working in medical relief via MSF. Much of their relief work is centered in Africa, and much of Africa does not recognize the DO degree, hence my decision to go the Caribbean route.

 

[Mr.Happy]

I appreciate the insight, and you're absolutely correct that salaries outside of the US can make loan repayment difficult. My interest in international medicine is more at the population level and its relevancy to global health, and I am more interested in working in medical relief via MSF. Much of their relief work is centered in Africa, and much of Africa does not recognize the DO degree, hence my decision to go the Caribbean route.

MSF does accept physicians with DO's but that's beside the point since you're already a SGU student. Which year do you plan on matching? I wish you the best of luck.

 

[bedevilled ben]

MSF does accept physicians with DO's but that's beside the point since you're already a SGU student. Which year do you plan on matching? I wish you the best of luck.

The problem isn't MSF so much as the countries in which they operate. It doesn't prevent you from doing work, but it limits your autonomy whilst in those countries. I will be matching in 2016.

 

[Mr.Happy]

The problem isn't MSF so much as the countries in which they operate. It doesn't prevent you from doing work, but it limits your autonomy whilst in those countries. I will be matching in 2016.

Okay then you're fine according to the research I've done. I've heard the residency crunch for IMG's only heats up from 2017 onwards. Plus I'm sure you will have strong Step scores, strong LORs etc. considering your pre-med stats and the fact that you survived this long at SGU.

 

[bellab17]

Skip,

Yes, Doctors without Boards is actually the organization I eventually want to join after I graduate. I have family in Trinidad, Jamaica and close family friends from Kenya and Ethiopia. So I wanted to see if I could practice in these islands and Africa in addition to the US once I graduated from one of the Big four.

I also heard UWI is a good school but I don't know how competitive it is for US students even though my whole family is from there. Lol Also, I don't know if they would take US federal loans ???
Also, if I wanted to practice after graduation in these countries do I have to have done residency,like the US, or could I just begin practicing on that island/country of interest?

Thanks so much!

 

[bedevilled ben]

Skip,

Yes, Doctors without Boards is actually the organization I eventually want to join after I graduate. I have family in Trinidad, Jamaica and close family friends from Kenya and Ethiopia. So I wanted to see if I could practice in these islands and Africa in addition to the US once I graduated from one of the Big four.

I also heard UWI is a good school but I don't know how competitive it is for US students even though my whole family is from there. Lol Also, I don't know if they would take US federal loans ???
Also, if I wanted to practice after graduation in these countries do I have to have done residency,like the US, or could I just begin practicing on that island/country of interest?

Thanks so much!

This is all readily-available information. If you are considering a Caribbean MD program I would highly encourage you to become more proactive and seek these answers for yourself. As a general rule, the schools there are not as helpful and forthcoming with accurate information regarding your future and the responsibility lies squarely on you to maximize your chances of success.

Medecins sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Boarders will recognize degrees from all of the Big 4 schools. I do not know about Windsor, you will have to investigate that. I would suggest starting with their ECFMG certification. If you want to join MSF, you must have completed either residency or "at least 2 years of training in your field". You should really plan on doing a residency, you will be crippling yourself otherwise.

Windsor is not a good school. I'm sure they have their success stories but the fact of the matter is that going anywhere other than one of the Big 4 schools is statistically likely to end in disaster for you. Windsor also does not take US federal loans, so you will have to secure private loans. This should be a huge red flag for you. Also as Mr Happy noted above, practicing outside of the US as a US citizen severely limit your income, which can make loan repayment difficult. I think you should really take the time for some introspection and do a lot more research before making this decision.

 

[Skip Intro]

I agree with bedevilled ben.

I would think the best way to practice in a foreign country would be to complete your training in the U.S., become board-certified in a specialty, then attempt to go off the reservation. Doctors Without Borders looks primarily at already-practicing physicians in a specialty. The pay is low. And most people do this as a way to gain personal experience and exercise a passion for practicing medicine in a third-world country. It's more for personal gratification than financial. Check out their website.

-Skip

 

[bellab17]

Bedevilled Ben,

I recently began researching on this topic and I was just asking a question. Furthermore, I said nothing about considering Windsor. I said UWI, which stands for the University of the West Indies (also readily available information) which is a great medical school.

I am apply in the US and abroad for med schools. My question was that if I did go to one of the Big Four, if for some reason I didn't get US residency right away could I practice in one of the two islands my family is from in the meantime.

Moreover, I said I would eventually want to join an organization like Doctors without Borders, later on after working as an MD for awhile.

This is all readily-available information. If you are considering a Caribbean MD program I would highly encourage you to become more proactive and seek these answers for yourself. As a general rule, the schools there are not as helpful and forthcoming with accurate information regarding your future and the responsibility lies squarely on you to maximize your chances of success.

Medecins sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Boarders will recognize degrees from all of the Big 4 schools. I do not know about Windsor, you will have to investigate that. I would suggest starting with their ECFMG certification. If you want to join MSF, you must have completed either residency or "at least 2 years of training in your field". You should really plan on doing a residency, you will be crippling yourself otherwise.

Windsor is not a good school. I'm sure they have their success stories but the fact of the matter is that going anywhere other than one of the Big 4 schools is statistically likely to end in disaster for you. Windsor also does not take US federal loans, so you will have to secure private loans. This should be a huge red flag for you. Also as Mr Happy noted above, practicing outside of the US as a US citizen severely limit your income, which can make loan repayment difficult. I think you should really take the time for some introspection and do a lot more research before making this decision.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Bedevilled Ben,

I recently began researching on this topic and I was just asking a question. Furthermore, I said nothing about considering Windsor. I said UWI, which stands for the University of the West Indies (also readily available information) which is a great medical school.

I am apply in the US and abroad for med schools. My question was that if I did go to one of the Big Four, if for some reason I didn't get US residency right away could I practice in one of the two islands my family is from in the meantime.

Moreover, I said I would eventually want to join an organization like Doctors without Borders, later on after working as an MD for awhile.

My apologies re: UWI. I respond in a lot of these threads and there was a recent question about a Windsor University. I may have made a mistake and conflated your post with another one. Considering there are over 60 medical schools in the Caribbean, hopefully you'll forgive me for not immediately recognizing which one you were referring to.

Aside from that, I think the rest of my information stands. If you want to practice in Jamaica, you shouldn't be going by what somebody says on these forums. Consult the Medical Council of Jamaica directly. Skip is right. If you're a US citizen, the best route is to become board certified in the US and then move from there.

 

[Skip Intro]

I said UWI, which stands for the University of the West Indies (also readily available information) which is a great medical school.

UWI is a British-type medical school that confers the degree of MBBS/MBChB to its graduates. It is very competitive and typically does not cater to U.S. or Canadian students.

-Skip

 

[bellab17]

Bedevilled Ben,

Firstly, ppl are entitled to inquire about anything on these forums, that's the reason for its existence. I was again asking a question, and regardless of the answers on this forum, would not merely go "by what ppl say" so don't assume that I would not also do my own research. As I have said before, this was something I recently thought about and simply wanted to ask about it. (BTW, I have gotten a lot of good advice and valid info (which I have RESEARCHED) on this forum from ppl who are willing to give insight if they are in the know, in lieu of jumping to conclusions and being rude and disrespectful.

Also, there is a difference b/t regional and offshore med schools. UWI is regional and Windsor is an offshore, of which there are 31.

Again, as I have said before, I am applying in the US and abroad. I was just inquiring, for those who may have an idea, what were possible options in terms of practicing outside the US, if I went the Big 4 Caribbean route. I, of course, want to become certified and practice in the US, as I am a US citizen.

Skip,

Yes, your right. I know it is very competitive and they take a limited number of US students each year. As a US citizen, I know in terms of funding it also will be very expensive. My goal is to focus on the US and big 4 schools, but wanted to know about the possibilities of practicing in other countries/islands also, if coming from the Big four.

Thanks

My apologies re: UWI. I respond in a lot of these threads and there was a recent question about a Windsor University. I may have made a mistake and conflated your post with another one. Considering there are over 60 medical schools in the Caribbean, hopefully you'll forgive me for not immediately recognizing which one you were referring to.

Aside from that, I think the rest of my information stands. If you want to practice in Jamaica, you shouldn't be going by what somebody says on these forums. Consult the Medical Council of Jamaica directly. Skip is right. If you're a US citizen, the best route is to become board certified in the US and then move from there.

 

[Mr.Happy]

Bedevilled Ben,

Firstly, ppl are entitled to inquire about anything on these forums, that's the reason for its existence. I was again asking a question, and regardless of the answers on this forum, would not merely go "by what ppl say" so don't assume that I would not also do my own research. As I have said before, this was something I recently thought about and simply wanted to ask about it. (BTW, I have gotten a lot of good advice and valid info (which I have RESEARCHED) on this forum from ppl who are willing to give insight if they are in the know, in lieu of jumping to conclusions and being rude and disrespectful.

Again, as I have said before, I am applying in the US and abroad. I was just inquiring, for those who may have an idea, what were possible options in terms of practicing outside the US, if I went the Big 4 Caribbean route. I, of course, want to become certified and practice in the US, as I am a US citizen.

Skip,

Yes, your right. I know it is very competitive and they take a limited number of US students each year. As a US citizen, I know in terms of funding it also will be very expensive. My goal is to focus on the US and big 4 schools, but wanted to know about the possibilities of practicing in other countries/islands also, if coming from the Big four.

Thanks

You know, Will Smith once said this in an interview " I don't have a Plan B because it distracts from Plan A". Think about that. You will probably have over 250,000-300,000 dollars in debt after you graduate from a Big 4 school. Practicing outside the US is not a feasible option if you want to pay back those loans in a reasonable period of time. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia etc. heavily prefer their own citizens when handing out residencies. Developing countries will probably allow you to practice but loan repayment will be very difficult if not impossible.

You say UWI is expensive, have you looked at the tuition and living expenses for any of the Big 4?

 

[bellab17]

Mr. Happy,

I understand what your saying and I don't have a plan B, my goal is to obtain residency and practice in the US. I always hear, that one should be weary of practicing in the Caribbean, bc US residency these days would be hard to obtain for IMG.

I was asking this question bc what happens to the island grads who talk about how they don't get residency right away? Instead of changing careers, don't they have the option of practicing in other countries until they do?

But then again, I do understand what your saying about certain countries having preference for their own that's why I was inquiring about my families home countries since they have tithes there. Nonetheless, I can respect your perspective on how much certain countries would pay and the possibility of having to deal with loans.

Also, Yes I know how much the big 4 cost, I just meant UWI, unlike the big 4, is unlikely to accept the US federal loans.

Thanks

You know, Will Smith once said this in an interview " I don't have a Plan B because it distracts from Plan A". Think about that. You will probably have over 250,000-300,000 dollars in debt after you graduate from a Big 4 school. Practicing outside the US is not a feasible option if you want to pay back those loans in a reasonable period of time. Countries like the UK, Canada, Australia etc. heavily prefer their own citizens when handing out residencies. Developing countries will probably allow you to practice but loan repayment will be very difficult if not impossible.

You say UWI is expensive, have you looked at the tuition and living expenses for any of the Big 4?

 

[Mr.Happy]

Mr. Happy,

I understand what your saying and I don't have a plan B, my goal is to obtain residency and practice in the US. I always hear, that one should be weary of practicing in the Caribbean, bc US residency these days would be hard to obtain for IMG.

I was asking this question bc what happens to the island grads who talk about how they don't get residency right away? Instead of changing careers, don't they have the option of practicing in other countries until they do?

But then again, I do understand what your saying about certain countries having preference for their own that's why I was inquiring about my families home countries since they have tithes there. Nonetheless, I can respect your perspective on how much certain countries would pay and the possibility of having to deal with loans.

Also, Yes I know how much the big 4 cost, I just meant UWI, unlike the big 4, is unlikely to accept the US federal loans.

Thanks

The overwhelming majority of island grads who don't match into a residency right away end up giving up on the dream of becoming a physician. That is the risk they took for choosing to join a medical program overseas. I hope you understand this huge risk before joining one of the Big 4. If your goal is to obtain residency and practice in the US, then you should make your application competitive for a US MD or US DO school, period. Don't look outside the US. The salary you will receive in your family's home country will not be enough to pay off the loans you will take as a Big 4 student. Please understand that.

 

[bellab17]

Mr. Happy,

Okay, thank you. I appreciate you offering your advice.

The overwhelming majority of island grads who don't match practice in the US, then you should make your application competitive for a US MD or US DO school, period. Don't look outside the US. The salary you will receive in your family's home country will not be enough to pay off the loans you will take as a Big 4 student. Please understand that.

 

[bedevilled ben]

Bedevilled Ben,

Firstly, ppl are entitled to inquire about anything on these forums, that's the reason for its existence. I was again asking a question, and regardless of the answers on this forum, would not merely go "by what ppl say" so don't assume that I would not also do my own research. As I have said before, this was something I recently thought about and simply wanted to ask about it. (BTW, I have gotten a lot of good advice and valid info (which I have RESEARCHED) on this forum from ppl who are willing to give insight if they are in the know, in lieu of jumping to conclusions and being rude and disrespectful.

Also, there is a difference b/t regional and offshore med schools. UWI is regional and Windsor is an offshore, of which there are 31.

Again, as I have said before, I am applying in the US and abroad. I was just inquiring, for those who may have an idea, what were possible options in terms of practicing outside the US, if I went the Big 4 Caribbean route. I, of course, want to become certified and practice in the US, as I am a US citizen.

I don't know what I said that seems rude or disrespectful to you. You're right, I did make a mistake about UWI versus Windsor. You called me on it and I apologized for that. So ignore what I said specifically about Windsor. I didn't say you couldn't or shouldn't ask the question, I told you there is a better approach to finding accurate answers. Likewise, people are entitled to offer their advice when it was specifically asked for. If you don't like my advice, then ignore it, but I've been going through the processes of dealing with foreign medical schools for the last 3 years. My experience has been that there is a vast amount of incorrect information passed around on message boards (not just SDN) regarding foreign medical education, and it's important to go directly to the source for these things. This is especially important when you're dealing with your licensing and accreditation, because it changes very quickly and has huge, life-altering implications for your career as a physician.

Without a proper residency and board certification, your options are limited. SGU has programs in place that allows for physicians that graduate but don't match into a residency to teach for a year or do research and then reapply. These are not good options, as your chances of matching drop off very quickly after the first cycle, but they are better than none. The success stories for IMGs that don't match are few and far between. Research and consulting in the US is another option for those with an MD but no residency. The pay is rarely great but it is better than doing nothing.

 

[Mr.Happy]

I don't know what I said that seems rude or disrespectful to you. You're right, I did make a mistake about UWI versus Windsor. You called me on it and I apologized for that. So ignore what I said specifically about Windsor. I didn't say you couldn't or shouldn't ask the question, I told you there is a better approach to finding accurate answers. Likewise, people are entitled to offer their advice when it was specifically asked for. If you don't like my advice, then ignore it, but I've been going through the processes of dealing with foreign medical schools for the last 3 years. My experience has been that there is a vast amount of incorrect information passed around on message boards (not just SDN) regarding foreign medical education, and it's important to go directly to the source for these things. This is especially important when you're dealing with your licensing and accreditation, because it changes very quickly and has huge, life-altering implications for your career as a physician.

Without a proper residency and board certification, your options are limited. SGU has programs in place that allows for physicians that graduate but don't match into a residency to teach for a year or do research and then reapply. These are not good options, as your chances of matching drop off very quickly after the first cycle, but they are better than none. The success stories for IMGs that don't match are few and far between. Research and consulting in the US is another option for those with an MD but no residency. The pay is rarely great but it is better than doing nothing.

I do know that McKinsey and Boston Consulting Group do actively recruit MD graduates who have no residency and offer them a competitive pay. However I'm not sure how they will feel towards a Caribbean MD though SGU is well-known.

 

[Skip Intro]

I understand what your saying and I don't have a plan B....

Always have a "Plan B"... and "C"... and "D"... etc. Failing to plan is planning to fail.

Regardless as to what anyone personally thinks of his abilities as an actor and rapper, Will Smith is/was a good looking and talented individual who was at the right place at the right time. Not all of us are that good looking or talented. Still, some people would call much of his success nothing more than dumb luck amid a sea of equal talent. Being noticed. Being at the right place at the right time. Most of us aren't so lucky. There are a lot of failures out there who still think like Will Smith. They believe, despite reality, that it's going to happen for them eventually on their singular trajectory. Some people might also call that determination. Well, there are a lot of determined people who are still failures.

A better analogy is the college football player who automatically believes he's going to make it to the pros. So, he ignores the tremendous opportunity of a paid-for education. In the end when he's mopping the floor or shuffling fries into a cardboard container, he has no one to blame but himself.

Always have a back-up plan.

-Skip

 

[bellab17]

What I intended to say is that I am now focused and striving towards achieving my initial goal or plan A and that my initial question about practicing as a foreign doc was not meant to represent a plan B, but it was a topic/question I was curious about.

Moreover, although I am focused and putting my energy into trying to achieve my goal, doesn't mean that I haven't entertained the idea of other possible outcomes and thought realistically about would could happen.

Moreover, I was also saying I do understand what Mr. Happy meant about the possible risk of practicing as a foreign doc and not being able to pay off student loans due to the fact that you may be offered a lower pay in some countries.

 

[Medstart108]

I do know that McKinsey and Boston Consulting Group do actively recruit MD graduates who have no residency and offer them a competitive pay. However I'm not sure how they will feel towards a Caribbean MD though SGU is well-known.

For those top consulting firms prestige plays a major role. They definitely won't be hiring Caribbean grads.