Can I get into an SMP with my stats?

[connerm]

Hello everyone,

I am a first time poster here at SDN though I have been following the conversation for a bit. I'm 28 and for the past 2 years I have been working as a research scientist at a well known children's hospital on the east coast. Working in a group of pediatric surgeons has opened my eyes to what exactly medicine is all about and I would like to change careers with the intention of becoming a doctor.

Sounds great, right? Well, I futzed around quite a bit as an undergrad and know that I'm going to need to do an SMP in order to get in. Before I apply and screw up my chances for this year in the event that I don't get in, I'm wondering if there is anything that I might need to do to improve my stats. I understand that the best time to apply to a program with rolling admissions is early, so I'm hoping that I can just go for it.

I went to a state school from 2004-2008 and matriculated as a graduate student there from 2008-2012
cGPA: 2.97 with an upward trend, mostly advanced science courses
BCPM GPA: 2.8
gGPA (PhD program in biochemistry ) 3.3 ****
ECs: Currently volunteering 5 hrs/week at a local hospital while working full time and shadowing another 5-10 hours rotating through pediatric surgery and oncology. 9 years of research, several publications. Have been working full time in research for 2 years aside from 4 years as a grad student and 3 as an undergrad.
MCAT: 33S (I took this in lieu of the biomedical GRE in 2008 ($$) and the SMP I am applying to will take old scores)

****I went to a graduate program for 4 years but ended up withdrawing with the blessing of my mentor and committee chair after our lab essentially ran out of funding and I was given the option to either start over in a new lab or move on. They are both on board to write nice LoRs. Being a grad. student gave me a great deal of experience in teaching (I taught a couple of the science courses that gave me subpar grades and would say that I understand the material rather well now.) I have no graduate degree.

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[DrMidlife]

I see at least 3 problems here.

1) You are way too close to having a GPA that starts with a 3 to let it slide. Good lord go fix that. Ideally take enough fresh new difficult undergrad (regardless of SMP admission issues) to be READY for the SMP and to be cleaned up for MD admissions. A year+ of full time undergrad, mostly science, at a 3.7+, is what you should do before an SMP, because your undergrad GPA is still the biggest fattest thing on your MD app regardless of your SMP performance.

2) An "SMP" that doesn't care how old your MCAT is also won't care about other dealbreakers in MD admissions. Caveat emptor.

3) Only applying to one SMP says to me you haven't looked at other SMPs. Unless you're talking about Temple (which you aren't, because they have a 3.4 minimum), your SMP probably isn't as special as you may think it is.

Best of luck to you.

 

[connerm]

DrMidlife! I was hoping to draw you out of all the helpful individuals on this forum because you offer the saltiest advice. Thank you for the reply.

The SMP in mind is Drexel's IMS program. The reason I am limiting myself is that I live in Philadelphia and am currently supporting a wife in school. Moving would be a last resort, but if absolutely necessary it might be possible to uproot after this year.

I've spoken with the IMS admissions director and she told me that given the current situation with the MCAT 2015 not being offered until April and scores not being offered until late July, they would be willing to accept my old MCAT score in order to allow me to apply. There is an expectation in place that I take the MCAT before enrolling, but in order to have a score to work with they will take the old one.

You're right about the GPA. I have a large number of credit hours, but it would not take much to put myself over 3.0 with a semester of serious work. The main concern here is money and time. I would be happy to take some classes, but I really don't have the time with my current job as I am working 65+ hours a week. On top of volunteering and shadowing it just isn't in the cards to take any courses until my position is up at the end of this upcoming summer.

 

[DrMidlife]

Like most SMPs nowadays, Drexel IMS will be more than happy to take your money without taking responsibility for what's likely to happen to you when you finish the program. There's no accountability for graduate success with MD admissions.

No way would I do Drexel IMS with a sub-3.0. You'll be lucky to get a DO acceptance on the other side. And if that's what you want, then you don't need to do a Drexel program.

tl;dr: don't go to an SMP that will take you before you're maximally ready to apply to med school.

 

[connerm]

Thank you for the advice. I just need 4 credit hours at an A and it would be a wise move to do so while I have tuition assistance at work.

Spending a year and the majority of my savings on undergraduate courses seems ill advised, though. Shouldn't a strong performance in a program like IMS offset my lackluster undergraduate years? I feel prepared for the coursework based off of my professional experience.

 

[connerm]

Okay, I did some thinking about what you said and calculated my BCPM GPA the way that AMCAS does in addition to calculating the number of hours I would need to take at a 4.0 in order to get to certain GPA milestones. I did not want to hear it, but you are probably right. I would like to know what my best route is to get a shot at an MD at this point and the SMP may not be enough.

uGPA: 2.97 at 123 credit hours
sGPA: 2.6 at 82 credit hours

To get to 3.0:
uGPA: 4 credit hours
sGPA: 33 BCPM credit hours

To get to 3.3:
uGPA: 58 credit hours
sGPA: 47 BCPM credit hours

To get to 3.5:
uGPA: 82 credit hours
sGPA: 66 BCPM credit hours

These numbers go higher if you take into account that a 4.0 might be an unrealistic goal since most of these courses will need to be upper level science/math classes. Let's say I go for a 3.85 and the goal is a 3.3 sGPA/uGPA. This means I need to take 74 credit hours, 60 of which must be BCPM.

Since the soonest I can take a full courseload is fall '15, I could apply to one of the guaranteed interview/admission SMPs for Fall '17 after taking 74 credit hours and getting a stellar GPA and hopefully matriculate in an MD program in Fall '18.

This is a long timetable. You mentioned a 1 year of doing well in UCs, but even then my sGPA would just be topping 3.0. Do you think this is the "easiest" and fastest way to get into an MD program?

As far as doing this in a less expensive way, is it feasible to take any courses at a community college or should I do it all at Temple? Would taking any of these courses online be looked at negatively?

 

[TyrKinase]

Unfortunately, there's no "quick" way without significant risk. Sure, you could gain acceptance with a a sub 3.0 GPA and an SMP, but the odds are not in your favor.

I was in a similar spot minus the graduate degree. I did two years of undergraduate make up work (upper division science courses) at my local state university, then got into Drexel IMS. It was my toughest year academically (including med school) and for the pleasure of spending a year in Philly and $30k, I received exactly one waitlist spot that didn't turn in to anything.

Sure, Drexel will be happy to take your money. After you start your courses, they'll inform you about all the great Caribbean medical schools you can attend. No joke, this was a school sponsored event. Don't go to Drexel.

CC courses aren't desirable, and I say this as a former admissions committee member. The quality of CCs varies widely and the advanced science coursework you need to undertake isn't available at those institutions.

Are you able to attend any state universities as an open enrollment student?

 

[jl lin]

Admittedly, I have not sat in the Drexel IMS program; but I have to say, as a Drexel graduate, I am pretty damn tired of reading so much trash talk against one pretty good school. Is it expensive as hell? YES! It was both challenging and enjoyable.

I'd like to see, however, hard data that shows Drexel's Post-Bacc programs are totally worthy of all the trash talk. As a Summa Cum Laude graduate, I call BS. And before anyone talks about any school wanting or taking money, please, for heaven's sake, wake up!!!! That's the main deal with higher education. It's pretty much about profit. Schools are in business to make money!!!!! Simple as that.

Is a Drexel degree worth it? Yes for several reasons--and for the fact that they have great networking and have paid co-ops everywhere nationally and internationally. I haven't found one Drexel chem engineer, for example, complain, b/c they do the paid co-ops and move into nice positions afterwards--and they get a good education. I could share this of many other majors as well.

Now, if one or more of Drexel's pre-med programs suck; OK. So please point out the specifics, rather than trashing an otherwise good school. And make theses as objective as possible and make them standout, so that a person doesn't have to comb through 5,000 PB or SMP reviews before getting to those with Drexel.

Just leave out the subjective commentary and stick with the facts. Tyr, I don't know the specifics of your situation; but might not a less than desirable MCAT or something similar have something to do with your post-Drexel outcome?

Also, Drexel sponsors a lot of events for God's sake. So do MOST other schools I don't think you get the main name of the game in terms of higher education. Should it be so much about the money? Probably not; but it costs bucks to have good programs with sound connections and so forth.

I have yet to see why some of this anti-Drexel sentiment goes on at SDN.

 

[connerm]

Hey there and thanks for the replies. I certainly hold no qualms with Drexel and have heard both good and bad things about the IMS program like most other SMPs. I think that what both DrMidlife and Tyr said are legitimate points, though, in that success in IMS would not necessarily result in a successful application with my situation as it currently stands. An SMP with lower admissions standards may not be helpful in sprucing up my credentials considering the cost and the current situation.

Tyr, were you ever able to matriculate at an MD program? I'm sorry to hear about your experience.

I have been looking at the local state school, which is Temple. Temple's tuition is great, but they say that a "continuing education" student, which is what I think I would be, can only take up to 11 credit hours at a time. I need to take a full course load if I am going to do this on a reasonable time frame. Is there anything I can do aside from look at a different school?

 

[jl lin]

Perhaps so, I give respect to those that you have mentioned, but the anti-Drexel chant has been going on for quite some time. I am sick of hearing it w/o substantial, objective points.

It's as though people actually believe that schools exist just so someone might engage in higher learning. Nice idealistic thought, but it's the furthest thing from reality...for any school. It's almost like those people that actually think nonprofit organizations don't make profits. Oh really? This is not so. Trust me, I have worked for nonprofits.

Whether any of their programs work for you is a separate issue. Tyr did matriculate into Tulane, I believe.

Everyone applying to some post-bacc or med school must put out their best possible applications and go from there. Temple post-bacc are great also, but I believe the number of seats is a lot smaller than Drexel or other schools.

Overall the pb requirements are generally similar, with some exceptions here or there. BM is probably one of the toughest to gain entrance to, and though it's a nice program, they want transcripts back to high school and people that would appear more high profile or unique for the sell of their program. Look at their student profile pages. Ivy leaguers or highly unusual experience. Mostly high scorers throughout. They make real nice bio pages.

People need to get that so much of higher education is a game. You go for the game that would seem to work best for you.

 

[deleted248403]

As been said many many times on here before, there is no correlation between the undergrad of a place and its grad school/post bac program. Drexel undergrad does not equal Drexel grad. So get your panties unbunched.

No-one is insulting your undergrad alma mater, but the grad school is getting what it deserves given their questionable admissions record as of late. That being said there are 2 people in my class who went to Drexel grad.

 

[TyrKinase]

Perhaps I'm too negative about Drexel. Allow me to expand, with the caveat that this information is likely stale as I was a student in IMS in 2008-2009.

Like the OP, I had a poor undergraduate GPA that I attempted to rehabilitate via a public university through open enrollment. I got my cGPA up to 3.2 and sGPA to 2.91 (terrible, right?) and while SMPs like Georgetown turned me down, IMS took me on. My MCAT was 32; I wasn't blowing anyone away but it was certainly acceptable. Everything else including ECs, letters, leadership, etc was pretty solid -- my undergraduate GPA was my main hold-up.

IMS does offer students a chance to prove themselves in a rigorous environment. Students are graded against the MS1 class, giving admissions committees a point of reference. This is certainly a valuable aspect of the program. But in practice, I found the program to exist more for the benefit of the institution than for their students. In a class of ~120, approximately 20 were subsequently accepted into DUCOM after IMS. For those "borderline" students, many went on to MMS (the second-year, masters of "I'm good at med school stuff" degree that is quite frankly, useless outside of medical school admissions). A number of students were accepted at outside medical schools, while a very significant number were without clear direction after that first year.

As I mentioned previously, I found some of the guidance provided by the IMS administration to be downright questionable. Why would you accept a huge class of students, only to inform them of their off-shore medical school options? I would wager that most students capable of gaining acceptance in IMS were already suitable Caribbean applicants, without having to spend $30k and a year at Drexel. There were also discussions of "alternative" healthcare pathways, which I found in poor taste given that this was the "most advanced" post-bacc program at Drexel.

Another aspect that left a bad taste in my mouth was that in the same year, Drexel started IHS, a program for applicants not suitable for IMS. These folks had largely unimpressive academic credentials, but they were provided a program to improve their record. I met not one IHS student who wanted to pursue a non-physician path; they were told IHS could help them get ready for med school but ultimately were told about alternative pathways like nursing and PA school. Sure, this is a "buyer beware" issue -- the applicant should know what they're signing up for, but it seemed like the Drexel administration was more than happy to sell a highly optimistic picture and deliver a different bill of goods once the loan checks had cleared.

Personally, I somehow managed to be accepted into Tulane's Anatomy Certification Program (ACP) with the waitlist letter I earned from a brand new med school during my Drexel year. In that sense, my year in Philadelphia was a success. I did well in ACP, subsequently matriculated into Tulane SOM, was an above average student, did pretty well on Step 1/2, and matched into a highly competitive specialty in a nice California city.

Also, New Orleans is way, way more fun than Philadelphia but that's neither here nor there.

TL;DR: Drexel can be valuable, but I find their post-bacc administration to be unscrupulous. Buyer beware.

 

[connerm]

Thanks for the information, Tyr. Based off of what I have heard, I think I will take a year of rigorous coursework at Temple and then apply to an SMP. If I can get both my sGPA and uGPA up to 3.3 in a year I might as well go for that instead of taking big, expensive gamble on a program that is likely to suck me into a second expensive year with little to show.

 

[jl lin]

First Rob, thanks for the panties bunch comment, lol. I try to avoid that situation. Now if only someone could invent a truly comfortable bra....then I'd be thrilled.

Now would you say your pov would apply to ALL of the Drexel PB programs...such as their evening PBPM, or simply some of those mentioned here? Yes, to me it would make more sense to have exceptional programs, like 2, as, say, Temple does...BCMS or ACMS.

Tyr, did you write the PD to express your concerns? If people don't lay things out, how can a program improve? Call me crazy, but my experiences at Drexel showed me they were all about improving, moving forward, and that they embraced a spirit of coalition-building.

 

[jl lin]

Also, in general, I don't think a masters program is necessarily the best way to go, if one's main goal is med school. There are some exceptions, I suppose. But if the goal is to get into med school, then the road that is mostly likely to get you there is the one you should take.

 

[TyrKinase]

I can't speak to the other post-bacc programs offered at Drexel, but that wasn't my original point. What I tried to outline above was that while IMS can certainly be useful, the whole notion that a school has made a myriad of "record enhancing" programs should arouse some suspicion on the part of the potential applicant.

Each and every one of these programs enables the school to access federally-guaranteed loans via a very large pool of applicants. This didn't happen by accident; I suspect DUCOM's financials rest firmly on the backs of aspiring physicians.

That being said, many people go through Drexel and are ultimately successful. My advice to future applicants is to consider the goals of the institution as well as your own before dedicating significant loan money and time to a program. And that's not just for Drexel -- that applies to all post bacc programs, SMPs or otherwise.

As far as speaking with the administration, yes, I did voice my concerns. Unfortunately (and perhaps predictably), nothing came of it.

@connerm: good luck on your decision. Even if you weren't considering Drexel, I would still suggest doing what you can to pump up that undergrad GPA before marching down the path toward a SMP. Then again, I'm just a guy on the internet so don't take me too seriously!

 

[tomz1385]

@TyrKinase - I think one of your old posts from 2008 gave me some great information and was one of the reasons why I choose Drexel IMS. At least I did remember your username from somewhere in those Drexel IMS posts from like 4-5 years ago.

When I heard that an estimated 20-30 students were accepted / interviewed during your year, I felt that I had a pretty good chance if I worked hard and did well in the program. (I'm also guessing that a good quarter-half of the class did the same thing they did in undergrad - they probably crammed at the last second and expected to do well - even after all the student panels and admins have specifically mentioned that this was going to be the hardest academic year of their life)

I had a very bad GPA, so it was one of the few that would accept me, and I did it in Sacramento where I lived. I guess that is one of the reasons I don't criticize why they take a lot of students - because if they didn't take a lot, I wouldn't have had my opportunity. I wasn't even waitlisted, I was just accepted with a decent SMP gpa.

Embarrassingly enough, the year before I was denied admissions to the IMS program (from what people are saying on the boards, who would have thought they even rejected people right? - but I guess I was probably on their bottom tier of candidates with my grades or because I applied on the deadline so I decided to wait til the next cycle and try again).

Maybe the acceptances to DUCOM has changed a bit. Most of the MMS students who interviewed at Drexel from Sacramento were accepted this year. I think most people who get automatic interviews get accepted too as long as there isn't a huge red flag. I know when I was in the IMS program 3-4 years ago, they did have those programs from St. George come by, but our admins did tell us that the match rate for overseas programs was lower.

Of course, I would speak positively of the program because it let me have a chance and provided me with the opportunity that I wouldn't have had otherwise. I do understand that there are some students that leave with a sour taste in their mouth, but the vice dean on the very first day did warn everyone that the SMP program would be unlike anything we have done. And he did say that it would be difficult and you'd have to sacrifice a lot to do well. I know when they ask me to speak to their new students, I always tell them the same thing and try not to sugarcoat the difficulty.

When starting the SMP, I looked at it the same way I viewed undergrad. Nothing was guaranteed to me. My undergrad institution probably took 100's of students who started off as "pre-meds". I'm sure many didn't pan out after undergrad, including myself. In that regard, I don't think they sold "a false bill of goods".

It was my own fault but I was able to rectify it before taking the SMP. I think the harsh words of my predecessors on this forum was also a reason why I pushed hard and did well at Drexel which I am also thankful for. After reading how difficult it was from other people, I made sure that I set aside that August-Feb to do nothing but study.

But I do agree with some of the points that other people have listed, I just wanted to write a little bit about my own circumstances and what I thought of things.

That said, in regards to OP: get your ugpa/bcmp up. 4.0's and strong upward trend before starting any SMP if you decide to try to get into an MD program. Get all the other EC's and stuff done before you do an SMP too. Though it might be faster to go DO due to grade forgiveness and because you are supporting your wife. Sometimes you just have to do what is convenient because you have to think about your partner as well. Especially if you have to support her - you won't have time to study all day. And there is nothing wrong with being a DO - some of my best friends are, and they are excellent doctors. You just might be limited in more competitive residencies later on.

(Sorry about running off tangent, I was just combining a response from this thread and a different one).