Can PTs specialize in athletics/work for a university?

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dpotter1

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Hello all,

I'm sure you get these kinds of questions all the time, but I am considering a career in PT and had a few questions about the field.

- To what degree can one specialize in working with athletes? I know that it is desirable to have somewhat of a variety in case load, but if my passion is for working with athletes, can I find a niche in that?

- Currently, I am working as a college administrator and enjoy the campus atmosphere. With that in mind I have been wondering if PTs are ever hired directly by colleges/universities or their athletic programs?

- If PTs can specialize in working with collegiate athletes, how competitive is it to find those jobs? What can I do to maximize my chances for that type of career?

- Are PTs ever hired directly by professional sports teams?

- Are there opportunities to teach with a DPT? I know that clinical opportunities may exist, but what about teaching continuing education courses or serving as a faculty member at a PT school down the line?

- What is the work/life balance like in PT? What would you say your typical hours are?

Thanks for the input!

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In my research I have found that if you wish to work with athletes, you need to be an Athletic Trainer. They are the ones that are hired to work in that arena. If I could rewind to the beginning of my undergraduate study, I would have majored in Athletic Training and then gotten the prereqs for PT school.

I have seen one job posting with the Minnesota Vikings, but they required that you be a PT/ATC (dual certified).

I see many faculty with DPT degrees on the rosters of PT schools around the country. I have no doubt that the addition of a PhD to your credentials would help in getting hired and getting tenure.
 
- To what degree can one specialize in working with athletes? I know that it is desirable to have somewhat of a variety in case load, but if my passion is for working with athletes, can I find a niche in that?

You can specialize in anything you want. What determines what type of patients you treat is the setting in which you work. You can find a niche in athletics but often it takes a fair amount of experience and/or a certificate in athletic training.

- Currently, I am working as a college administrator and enjoy the campus atmosphere. With that in mind I have been wondering if PTs are ever hired directly by colleges/universities or their athletic programs?

Sometimes but not often. The training rooms are almost always staffed by PT/ATCs but rarely by PTs alone. Student health services might hire a PT but that would not be with athletes. If the college is affiliated with a teaching hospital, the PT department might get some traffic from the trainers, but probably not much. The trainers generally do their own rehab.

- If PTs can specialize in working with collegiate athletes, how competitive is it to find those jobs? What can I do to maximize my chances for that type of career?

It is fairly competitive. You must first have the skill to treat these people better than others in your area. Once that happens, word of mouth travels quickly and you will get more and more traffice. Becoming an ATC gives you immediate crediblity in the area of sports rehab, after that a sports certification through the APTA would be next "most impressive" Getting a job at a clinic that does is affiliated with a college, pro team, or several high school athletic departments will give you some experience and exposure to athletes.

- Are PTs ever hired directly by professional sports teams?

Usually there is a formal relationship with a clinic for the rehab for those athletes on the DL or who don't make long road trips. Some teams hire PTs but almost all of them have the PT/ATC credential.

- Are there opportunities to teach with a DPT? I know that clinical opportunities may exist, but what about teaching continuing education courses or serving as a faculty member at a PT school down the line?

Yes there are those types of opportunities but you need to be able to demonstrate mastery of one or more topics. It is very difficult to take an instructor seriously who has little real world experience. PT school faculty is much the same, if you don't have clinical experience you would be most credible teaching hard sciences, and for those, the institution may require a PhD.

- What is the work/life balance like in PT? What would you say your typical hours are?

most PTs will work more or less a 9-5. Personally, I work 40 hours per week or so and it is generally 9-5, except when I do athletic event coverage. Some days I will work until 5 pm, then sit at a basketball game from 6-930 or a football game from 645-9. Next week I am taking an afternoon off from my "real job" to cover a section track meet. Generally the work/life balance is very appealing, however, the more you treat athletes, the more you are "on call". Not really on call, but your hours will expand, especially if you are trying to gain experience and get your foot in the door with some schools or pro teams. You will need to demonstrate the willingness to "do more" than the next guy AND be better at it than he or she is.
 
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If athletes are the populations you want to specialize in, is it worth going back to earn your CAT? There is quite a few masters entry level programs with the CAATE. However, that means 5 more years of schooling and I'm not sure if the masters programs will accept a DPT into their programs.
 
If athletes are the populations you want to specialize in, is it worth going back to earn your ATC? There is quite a few masters entry level programs with the CAATE. However, that means 5 more years of schooling and I'm not sure if the masters programs will accept a DPT into their programs.

Why not? If you go to an entry-level Masters program, you just have to have a bachelors. I know some of them like to do 5 years total bachelors-masters but not all of them. So for some it could just be two years added...

If you want to work with athletes, no certification or license is better than the BOC's Athletic Trainer Cerfitication. No other program teaches the skills to be a successfull athletic trainer better.
 
- To what degree can one specialize in working with athletes? I know that it is desirable to have somewhat of a variety in case load, but if my passion is for working with athletes, can I find a niche in that?
I have a similar desire to specialize in athletics. from what I have seen and come to know, it is fairly difficult/next to impossible to treat only athletes.
- Currently, I am working as a college administrator and enjoy the campus atmosphere. With that in mind I have been wondering if PTs are ever hired directly by colleges/universities or their athletic programs?
I have attended 3 different universities and none have an on-staff PT. Most issues are handled by the athletic training staff and a Physical therapist will come in 2-3x per week and the PT will also have a few athletes go to his clinic. So, the PT sees the collegiate athletes, and then does the regular out-patient ortho thing. Doesn't really make sense to me, but, seems to be standard practice.
- If PTs can specialize in working with collegiate athletes, how competitive is it to find those jobs? What can I do to maximize my chances for that type of career?
From my understanding it is very difficult and, I am sorry to say, but, to me, it seems that knowing the right people is more important than anything else... i.e. internships at the right places, networking, letters of recommendation/references from the right people
- Are PTs ever hired directly by professional sports teams?
This spring I did an internship at an out-patient ortho clinic that was owned by the Arizona Cardinals physical therapist. And, as you might have guessed, being a PT for the Cardinals was not his only job. He treated the cardinals players, as well as many other professional athletes, but he does also see some general population patients in the off-season, and he does some combine prep, and other stuff as well. I have no idea what his salary is with th e Cardinals, or if it could be his only source of income if he wanted it to be. But, main point, being the PT for the AZ Cardinals isn't his only job. I would hazard to guess that this is fairly standard, that is, professional athletics outsourcing physical therapy.
- What is the work/life balance like in PT? What would you say your typical hours are?
judging by the observations/internships and talking to others, hours are pretty regular... 9-5 pretty much. Working with athletics may be a little different i.e. the clinic I observed at was open Christmas day for athletes...
If athletes are the populations you want to specialize in, is it worth going back to earn your CAT? There is quite a few masters entry level programs with the CAATE. However, that means 5 more years of schooling
Where did you get 5 years from? Master's programs are generally 2 years.
and I'm not sure if the masters programs will accept a DPT into their programs.
Why would a DPT not get accepted? If someone is capable of earning a doctorate, they are probably capable of earning a master's
If you want to work with athletes, no certification or license is better than the BOC's Athletic Trainer Cerfitication. No other program teaches the skills to be a successfull athletic trainer better.
Coming from a Certified Athletic Trainer, I would disagree. I would get an SCS before an ATC. Although, it was brought up before that it may be a prerequisite to be an ATC/DPT to be on a professional sports medicine staff (going to look into that). But, if you are going to do the pro/collegiate sports and out-patient ortho route, I don't think becoming an ATC is going to help.
 
Coming from a Certified Athletic Trainer, I would disagree. I would get an SCS before an ATC. Although, it was brought up before that it may be a prerequisite to be an ATC/DPT to be on a professional sports medicine staff (going to look into that). But, if you are going to do the pro/collegiate sports and out-patient ortho route, I don't think becoming an ATC is going to help.

But to be an athletic trainer, you have to be a CERTIFIED ATHLETIC TRAINER. They SPECIALIZE in athletes! Also, to get the SCS credential you have to get the ATC, EMT, or first responder certification/license FIRST.

Why would a sports team hire a PT who can't legally provide onsite game/practice coverage? That would be STUPID.
 
But to be an athletic trainer, you have to be a CERTIFIED ATHLETIC TRAINER. They SPECIALIZE in athletes!
Well, true, but, athletic trainers are more of a jack of all trades... able to deal with acute injuries, bleeding, taping, emergency response, etc. In my opinion, most athletic trainers don't provide more effective rehabilitation than most physical therapist. PT's obviously specialize in rehabilitation, so, I would think PT's would be more knowledgeable/capable to rehab athletes... or anyone else. You're also comparing a doctorate to a master's or bachelor's... I know who I would put my money on to be more knowledgeable... At least in rehabilitation...
Also, to get the SCS credential you have to get the ATC, EMT, or first responder certification/license FIRST.
Correct. But, to my knowledge, becoming an EMT-B would be the simplest, so, if you are following the path of least resistance (110 hours of lecture/lab to become an EMT, less than a full semester, by my count), it would make sense to save the time and money and obtain an EMT-B. Although, you may want to double check this... I'm not exactly sure on the requirements for EMT-B... haven't gone through it yet, myself.
Why would a sports team hire a PT who can't legally provide onsite game/practice coverage? That would be STUPID.
To oversee rehabilitation/diagnosis. Trust me, there would be plenty for a PT to do, if hired full time. And if PT's are unnecessary in the pro/collegiate setting, then why do they outsource rehab in the first place?




In any event, it's all just some more letters after your name. If you are a great physical therapist that is knowledgeable and capable with rehabing athletes, then nobody is going to care if you have ATC, CSCS, SCS or whatever else after your name. Having all the credentials might get your foot in the door at certain places, but it sure as hell isn't a surefire way to work with high level athletes. Yeah, if you're goal is to cover games, tape ankles, etc. then becoming an ATC is probably for you, but, if you just want to rehab athletes, then just be good at what you do.

But, again, honestly, knowing the right people will probably get you farther than anything else in the world of high level athletics. It's a very exclusive, highly desirable world, knowing the right people will get you to the front of the line faster than anything else.
 
If all you did was rehab outsourced like has been mentioned, then yea be good at what you do. But I don't see them hiring a straight PT fulltime.

As for the EMT, I really don't know myself because I have no intent of taking those classes. To be an athletic trainer, I don't need it. But even if you get that, you still cannot legally work in the same capacity as an athletic trainer. I'm thinking, though, in some states in order to hold the EMT license, you have to work a certain number of hours in the EMS business and actually be affiliated with an EMS.

And who said PT's were unnecessary in the collegiate/pro world? Not me. I said a PT-only was not likely to fill those positions because they are not an athletic trainer.
 
I meant 5 years as 3 years in DPT, 2 years at masters for CAT.

I agree with 9433, I think PT's will find their way into pro sports more and more. Why outsource your athletes to outside PT's when a team could have one right there? I think PT's need to sell themselves a little bit, but once owner's know their importance to the health of their athletes and keeping them on the field...they will have no problem hiring PT's (they only cost 50-70K).

Anything with athletics is more about who you know. That's why I got out of strength and conditioning...there are a lot of idiots working as D1 strength coaches out there, but they knew the director.
 
As for the EMT, I really don't know myself because I have no intent of taking those classes. To be an athletic trainer, I don't need it. But even if you get that, you still cannot legally work in the same capacity as an athletic trainer. I'm thinking, though, in some states in order to hold the EMT license, you have to work a certain number of hours in the EMS business and actually be affiliated with an EMS.
Right, PT/EMT's can't do the same thing as ATC's, but the reason I brought it up was to show that you don't need to be an ATC to get an SCS. So, going the EMT route in order to become an SCS would probably be easier/faster... depending on the state requirements for EMT.

And who said PT's were unnecessary in the collegiate/pro world? Not me. I said a PT-only was not likely to fill those positions because they are not an athletic trainer.

Well, not your words exactly, but you did question why a PT would be hired and called it "stupid," leading me to believe that you didn't exactly think it was necessary. Possibly an unfair assumption by me, but, I think your stance is that PT's don't do enough in the collegiate/pro setting to be hired full time, as compated to an ATC. From what I have seen, I would disagree. I think there is plenty of work on a day to day basis for a PT in a collegiate/pro setting. As stated earlier, ATC's are more generalists and PT's more specialists. I don't think having a PT as director of rehab (or whatever title you want) would be a bad thing.

Anyway, I think it comes down to, do you want to just rehab athletes, or do you want to do the other things involved with being an ATC as well. And, as stated earlier, it may be a necessity to be an PT/ATC to be on a professional level sports medicine team. So, I would ask a few pro teams and see what the credentials of their sports med staff are if that is a route you want to take.

I meant 5 years as 3 years in DPT, 2 years at masters for CAT.
Previously you stated, "that means 5 more years of schooling." The more confused me a bit. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
I think PT's will find their way into pro sports more and more. Why outsource your athletes to outside PT's when a team could have one right there?
I hope this is right. It just makes sense to me, if you are going to continually outsource something, why not just hire someone and make it in-house? Unless there is something I am missing.
they will have no problem hiring PT's (they only cost 50-70K).
A PT is that setting would probably demand a higher salary than that. With strength coaches and ATC's mostly earning over 100k, I would hope a PT would get a bump in salary as well.
Anything with athletics is more about who you know. That's why I got out of strength and conditioning...there are a lot of idiots working as D1 strength coaches out there, but they knew the director.
Ha, sounds like we have a similar background. I was trying to get into strength & conditioning, did an internship and started to realize the same thing... Major turn off.
 
this quote bothered me:

So, going the EMT route in order to become an SCS would probably be easier/faster... depending on the state requirements for EMT.

Easier is not better, faster is not better. If you want to be the best you can be when treating or rehabing athletes, you must become an ATC. End of story. There is no substitute. Period.

As far as you comments about ATC being a jack of all trades, that is true to some extent when it pertains to the healthcare needs of athletes. It does not extend into someone with Parkinsons, MS, stroke, or even hip replacement. The two professions are not mutually exclusive but because you can do one, does not mean you can do the other. There are gaps. No pro team or college will hire a DPT-only to treat athletes. They will probably not hire a DPT SCS via the EMT route, over a DPT ATC either simply because the ATC has a better, more precisely related skill set.
 
Easier is not better, faster is not better.
I see your point, and I probably should have further clarified this, so, I will do so now. Yes, becoming an ATC would probably be more beneficial than becoming an EMT. However, if you are in a time/money sensitive situation, EMT would make more sense to me, if it is your goal to become a SCS.
If you want to be the best you can be when treating or rehabing athletes, you must become an ATC. End of story. There is no substitute. Period.
I disagree. I think an SCS is going to be much more effective at rehabing athletes. Are there things an ATC can do that a SCS can't? Sure, but, as far as rehab, I would go with the average SCS over the average ATC any day of the week. Post-doctorate versus bachelor's degree... I think I know who is going to win that battle.

Also, look at most sports medicine clinics. Almost always, everything that is done by an ATC is overlooked by a DPT. ATC's usually just function as a glorified PT aide in those settings.
As far as you comments about ATC being a jack of all trades, that is true to some extent when it pertains to the healthcare needs of athletes. It does not extend into someone with Parkinsons, MS, stroke, or even hip replacement.
Absolutely, ATC's, as the name implies, concentrate on athletes. I should have further limited my statement to a jack of all trades in the athletic world. I thought this was implied since the topic of this discussion is athletics. Is an ATC capable of dealing with patients with parkinsons, MS, stroke, etc, not so much... or, in the very least, not nearly as much as a PT.
The two professions are not mutually exclusive but because you can do one, does not mean you can do the other. There are gaps.
Obviously there are gaps, that is why the two positions exist. As state before, in my opinion, ATC's are a sort of jack-of-all-trades (in the athletic world) that serve as intermediaries to persons of more specialized skill sets... An ATC isn't a PT, but an ATC can handle some rehab. An ATC isn't a nurse, but an ATC can handle some would care. An ATC isn't an EMT, but can handle a traumatic injury or keep it under control under EMT's arrive. An ATC isn't a physician, but an ATC could probably tell you when you need to see one... etc. ATC's aren't specialists, they are generalists that take care of the small stuff.
No pro team or college will hire a DPT-only to treat athletes.
Well, pro/collegiate sports outsource to DPT's, so there is obviously a need for someone with physical therapy skills otherwise they would not be outsourcing.
They will probably not hire a DPT SCS via the EMT route, over a DPT ATC either simply because the ATC has a better, more precisely related skill set.
I am not saying that a DPT would get hired over an ATC and completely replace everything an ATC does. I am saying a DPT should be hired in addition to ATC's in order to provide more effective, specialized rehabilitation. Again, if PT's are not worth being hired, then why are college and pro sports outsourcing?
 
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So, I would ask a few pro teams and see what the credentials of their sports med staff are if that is a route you want to take.

Major League Baseball has all of their athletic trainers posted. Yes, some of them have PT credentials as well. Some of them also have a Physical Therapist listed on the website, but it does not say what role that PT plays. Fulltime, parttime, etc.

A PT is that setting would probably demand a higher salary than that. With strength coaches and ATC's mostly earning over 100k, I would hope a PT would get a bump in salary as well.

I know it's hard to believe, but these teams don't have unlimited budgets. I'd love to see how many athletic trainers in pro sports make over $100k. My guess is not as many as you think. I know a guy who works for an afiliated team. He was saying a couple years ago how they had to fight to get their minor league athletic trainers to be full time. The team had been just paying them monthly stipends. Also, most of those teams do not have fulltime strength and conditioning coaches at the minor league level. They hire interns to fill those positions season-to-season.

I disagree. I think an SCS is going to be much more effective at rehabing athletes. Are there things an ATC can do that a SCS can't? Sure, but, as far as rehab, I would go with the average SCS over the average ATC any day of the week. Post-doctorate versus bachelor's degree... I think I know who is going to win that battle.

For one, you're probably looking at an athletic trainer with a Masters Degree and not a bachelors. I know there are some with a bachelors, but probably not too many. And say they do have a bachelors, if the two graduate from undergrad at the same time the athletic trainer has 3 years of hands-on experience that the DPT does not. Likely going to be specific experience too.

Also, look at most sports medicine clinics. Almost always, everything that is done by an ATC is overlooked by a DPT. ATC's usually just function as a glorified PT aide in those settings.

This is not due to skill level. This is due to politics. Plain and simple.

Obviously there are gaps, that is why the two positions exist. As state before, in my opinion, ATC's are a sort of jack-of-all-trades (in the athletic world) that serve as intermediaries to persons of more specialized skill sets... An ATC isn't a PT, but an ATC can handle some rehab. An ATC isn't a nurse, but an ATC can handle some would care. An ATC isn't an EMT, but can handle a traumatic injury or keep it under control under EMT's arrive. An ATC isn't a physician, but an ATC could probably tell you when you need to see one... etc. ATC's aren't specialists, they are generalists that take care of the small stuff.

An Athletic Trainer is a healthcare professional. Yes, athletic trainers can do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they can only do the "small stuff."

I believe earlier you stated you were an athletic trainer, correct?
 
I am not saying that a DPT would get hired over an ATC and completely replace everything an ATC does. I am saying a DPT should be hired in addition to ATC's in order to provide more effective, specialized rehabilitation. Again, if PT's are not worth being hired, then why are college and pro sports outsourcing?

Absolutely!!! PT's, Strength Coaches, AT's and even RD's (Registered Dietitian) should all work in collaboration to keep their athletes on the field and performing at high levels and this should all be under "one roof". I can't speak for AT's, but I can speak for Strength Coaches and there is so much overlap between the two fields in my opinion. Strength coaches have taken so much from PT's to keep their athletes healthy; while most PT's don't have a clue how to make their athletes perform better.

You guys keep talking about rehab of the athletes...well what about prehab????? No, I'm not talking about taping prevention. I'm talking about corrective exercises to fix imbalances that occur from playing their individual sport. A MLB pitcher maybe suffering from GIRD or poor rotation from their drive leg... PT's know the body more functionally than AT's or CSCS's and can definitely be used!

What about performance enhancement? PT's can give a unique perspective here that many strength coaches don't do. PT's do a better job at matching the demands of that particular sport and the functional movements that are going to enhance that athlete's performance. Why do you think athletic facilities are hiring PT's, CSCS's, RD's, Massage Therapists. Look at CATZ (Competitive Athlete Training Zone) popping up all over: http://www.catzsports.com/ and there's plenty more other training facilities hiring PT's! Strength coaches know a lot about periodization, but a PT does a better job analyzing the biomechanical demands of the sport!

I doubt there will be an PT's working in a minor league setting, unless they are willing to work for nothing and are trying to work their way up. PT's will and ARE already finding their way into pro teams and at some point, I am willing to bet every pro team will have a PT on staff. However, those PT's should have either a CSCS, ATC, or SCS credential if they want a chance to work a that level. Simply getting your DPT won't cut it in my opinion because you need to show some sort of background in athletics.
 
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Major League Baseball has all of their athletic trainers posted. Yes, some of them have PT credentials as well. Some of them also have a Physical Therapist listed on the website, but it does not say what role that PT plays. Fulltime, parttime, etc.
I must admit I am fairly ignorant with the MLB. I am not sure of their PT relationships. So, thanks for bringing this up.
I know it's hard to believe, but these teams don't have unlimited budgets. I'd love to see how many athletic trainers in pro sports make over $100k. My guess is not as many as you think. I know a guy who works for an afiliated team. He was saying a couple years ago how they had to fight to get their minor league athletic trainers to be full time. The team had been just paying them monthly stipends. Also, most of those teams do not have fulltime strength and conditioning coaches at the minor league level. They hire interns to fill those positions season-to-season.
I applied to and turned down a position as a strength coach for one of the minor league teams of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (turned it down because I didn't like the possibility of living in Iowa for 6 months). They appear to have a similar employee structure. The strength coach positions were referred to as "internships" and paid around $1,000-$1,200 per month for 3-6 months (i forget how long the season is). This is as bottom level in the MLB as you can get. So, I'm not really sure you could compare these low tier salaries to PT's/ATC's/CSCS's in the actual MLB or any other professional level organization.
For one, you're probably looking at an athletic trainer with a Masters Degree and not a bachelors. I know there are some with a bachelors, but probably not too many.
The majority of athletic trainers do have a master's degree. But most do not have a master's degree in athletic training. According to the NATA Website, there are only 16 post-professional programs for athletic training. Most athletic trainers that I know have master's degrees in education, exercise science, physical education, etc. The reason why most trainers get a master's degree in a field that is not directly related is because the formal academic education is not really what they are after. Graduate Assistantship is what most athletic trainers really want. A GA position will allow them to have 2 years of experience in a collegiate athletic setting. That's the real reason why ATC's go for a master's degree. Same deal with strength coaches too.
This is not due to skill level. This is due to politics. Plain and simple.
I'll agree with that to a certain extent. But, again, I would bring up the issue of bachelor's versus doctorate.
An Athletic Trainer is a healthcare professional. Yes, athletic trainers can do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they can only do the "small stuff."
Right, but in a professional/collegiate setting, when you have a MD and PT coming in and checking on things on a regular basis, with is left for the ATC to do?
I believe earlier you stated you were an athletic trainer, correct?
Correct, BOC certified ATC with 7 semesters experience at Miami University as a student trainer to various varsity athletic teams, no professional experience. I am also a CSCS and did a 4 month internship at Arizona State. And I will be applying to PT programs this upcoming cycle.

Absolutely!!! PT's, Strength Coaches, AT's and even RD's (Registered Dietitian) should all work in collaboration to keep their athletes on the field and performing at high levels and this should all be under "one roof".
Couldn't agree more.
I can't speak for AT's, but I can speak for Strength Coaches and there is so much overlap between the two fields in my opinion. Strength coaches have taken so much from PT's to keep their athletes healthy; while most PT's don't have a clue how to make their athletes perform better.
Agreed... at least from the S&C side. A lot of the top S&C guys have been heavily influenced by PT's... i.e. Mike Boyle and company.

I doubt there will be an PT's working in a minor league setting, unless they are willing to work for nothing and are trying to work their way up.
Agreed. Athletes that get injured are cut from the team anyway. Minor league teams don't want to invest the time & money into a minor league player.

PT's will and ARE already finding their way into pro teams and at some point, I am willing to bet every pro team will have a PT on staff. However, those PT's should have either a CSCS, ATC, or SCS credential if they want a chance to work a that level. Simply getting your DPT won't cut it in my opinion because you need to show some sort of background in athletics.
I also see and need for and hope that PT's will start making their way into pro sports as full timers. But, it's going to take more than just a couple of letters after your name to get in the club.



As mentioned earlier I do have an ATC & CSCS. Is this going to help in my quest to work with collegiate and pro athletes? Probably, and I am glad that I went this route (although not intended)... Is it going to make me or break me. Probably not. If I were in the situation where I was just about to graduate or had already graduated, would I consider a master's degree in AT and then a DPT for the purpose of getting into athletics? Definitely not. I just don't think the extra 2 years, thousands of dollars in tuition and tens of thousands of dollars lost in income are worth the ATC credential in addition to the DPT credential to make it in the sports world.
 
I applied to and turned down a position as a strength coach for one of the minor league teams of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (turned it down because I didn't like the possibility of living in Iowa for 6 months). They appear to have a similar employee structure. The strength coach positions were referred to as "internships" and paid around $1,000-$1,200 per month for 3-6 months (i forget how long the season is). This is as bottom level in the MLB as you can get. So, I'm not really sure you could compare these low tier salaries to PT's/ATC's/CSCS's in the actual MLB or any other professional level organization.

This is actually the exact team I was talking about. They currently have it posted on the PBATS website looking for 3 strength and conditioning interns. The thing is you have to start at that level to work your way up into Major League Baseball. I was reading some of the profiles and it seemed like a lot of those guys at the Major League level had spent 15-20 years in the minors..

I'll agree with that to a certain extent. But, again, I would bring up the issue of bachelor's versus doctorate.

Do PT's get reimbursed differently if they have a BS, MPT, or DPT? No they don't.

Right, but in a professional/collegiate setting, when you have a MD and PT coming in and checking on things on a regular basis, with is left for the ATC to do?

Quite the difference in the big schools and the little schools. At my university, the physician is only in the athletic training room once a week and that's only during football season. And we never have a PT in the athletic training room. Only times we send athletes out to PT would be during the summer when they go home and when they are new to the program and are not on the roster.
 
As mentioned earlier I do have an ATC & CSCS. Is this going to help in my quest to work with collegiate and pro athletes? Probably, and I am glad that I went this route (although not intended)... Is it going to make me or break me. Probably not. If I were in the situation where I was just about to graduate or had already graduated, would I consider a master's degree in AT and then a DPT for the purpose of getting into athletics? Definitely not. I just don't think the extra 2 years, thousands of dollars in tuition and tens of thousands of dollars lost in income are worth the ATC credential in addition to the DPT credential to make it in the sports world.

I think the PT should have some sort of background with athletics; whether it is a CSCS, CAT/ATC, or SCS. A DPT education does nothing with athletes and I'm not sure someone with just DPT only would be qualified to work with professional athletes. This is at least the case where I am attending PT school, athletes are not covered specifically. That's where I think ATC or CSCS comes in handy.

Personally, I have only seen PT's working as strength coaches, athletic trainers, and rehabilitation coordinators at the professional level. I have never seen a straight PT or manual therapist working for teams. Let's face it, most people go to PT school because they know it's a job that will pleasure and it's 9-5 during the regular work week. Most people want to simply work in a hospital with their DPT degree and not work around the clock for a ball club.

The DPT degree is a generalist degree that has very little to do with athletics. However, you're crazy if you don't think the DPT degree won't help make you a better ATC or CSCS in the world of sports and it might be what gets you the job at the professional level. I know a few physical therapist that have their CSCS that have had opportunities to work with professional ball clubs as their head strength coach, but they turned it down because they can make more money with their private practice and they don't want the crazy hours.
 
Too many points to discuss specifically. ATstudent has it right, every time. I am both a DPT and and ATC and the DPT, no matter what their post graduate training, does not compare with what the ATC knows, does, or is able to do with athletes. I have worked around many many PTs with bachelors, masters, and doctorates and none of them have the skill set of an athletic trainer who is decent.

Sure, there are poor ATCs, but in my experience, the NATA BOC certification exam was waay harder than the PT licensure exam. There are plenty of PTs who couldn't solve their way out of a wet paper bag problem. (unclear, just suffice it to say that ATCs have to solve problems, many PTs are content to have the doctor tell them what to do via protocols, prescriptions to do massage and ultrasound etc . . .)

The idea that an ATC does only the small stuff is ludicrous. The ATC is perhaps a generalist in the athletic world, but when compared to the entire universe of rehab, they ARE the standard. Those of you who are debating this without both credentials really are standing on shifting sand. I know both types of training and the training of a DPT is nothing compared to that of an athletic trainer when it comes to evaluating, treating, managing, and preventing athletic injuries.
 
This is actually the exact team I was talking about. They currently have it posted on the PBATS website looking for 3 strength and conditioning interns.
Ha, small world
The thing is you have to start at that level to work your way up into Major League Baseball. I was reading some of the profiles and it seemed like a lot of those guys at the Major League level had spent 15-20 years in the minors..
I believe it. Not an easy job to get. High demand and low availability.
Do PT's get reimbursed differently if they have a BS, MPT, or DPT? No they don't.
How many BS and MPT programs are there now? Physical therapist are recognized at the gold standard for movement rehabilitation. That is why they get reimbursed.
Quite the difference in the big schools and the little schools. At my university, the physician is only in the athletic training room once a week and that's only during football season. And we never have a PT in the athletic training room. Only times we send athletes out to PT would be during the summer when they go home and when they are new to the program and are not on the roster.
Well, I guess that is the difference between big schools and little schools, because, from what I have seen and heard, 2-3x weekly visits (if not more) from an MD & PT, plus PT clinic visits seem to be standard practice at the big boy universities.
I think the PT should have some sort of background with athletics; whether it is a CSCS, CAT/ATC, or SCS. A DPT education does nothing with athletes and I'm not sure someone with just DPT only would be qualified to work with professional athletes. This is at least the case where I am attending PT school, athletes are not covered specifically. That's where I think ATC or CSCS comes in handy.
I agree that it will definitely come in hand. However at the ortho clinic I talked about earlier there are 3 PT's in addition to the owner (the guy that works with the cardinals). 2 have a CSCS and all 3 regularly work with various professional athletes. I don't see how a ortho based PT would not be qualified to work with athletes. Are athletes so incredibly different than the weekend warrior that gets hurt and needs PT? Are the impairments of athletes substantially different? As I am sure you know, Mike Boyle is heavily influenced by Shirley Sahrmann. Would Shirley Sahrmann not be qualified to work with athletes just because she focuses on orthopedics and not sports?
The DPT degree is a generalist degree that has very little to do with athletics.
Orthopedics has everything to do with athletics.
However, you're crazy if you don't think the DPT degree won't help make you a better ATC or CSCS in the world of sports and it might be what gets you the job at the professional level.
I completely agree that a DPT will make you a more effective ATC and CSCS. I'm just not sure about the other way around. I feel that the concepts ATC & CSCS are rudimentary compared to PT. Yes, there will be some benefit, but, I would say that it is far from a necessity to have an ATC/CSCS to rehab athletes.
I know a few physical therapist that have their CSCS that have had opportunities to work with professional ball clubs as their head strength coach, but they turned it down because they can make more money with their private practice and they don't want the crazy hours.
Really? I don't know exactly how much strength coaches make, but I know John Lott (S&C coach of the AZ cardinals) lives in a $750,000 house (it's scary what you can find in the department of public records, haha). How much are these PT's pulling in?






Anyway, getting back to the issue at hand.... What do you guys think about the situation I talked about at the end of my last post??? If a person already has a bachelor's, is it worth it to get a master's in AT and then a DPT?

Also, I still stand firm that the biggest help will be who you know versus what letters you have after your name in the world of athletics. Maybe I am not giving ATC's enough credit. Maybe I am giving PT's too much credit.

If you want to work with athletes in a rehabilitation setting, I think that we can all agree that, as it stands now, it will be difficult/impossible to be directly hired by a college/pro team to work as a PT. And if you want to go this route, and work with athletes, work at or own an outpatient ortho clinic, market it towards sports, get your name out there, and hope and pray that you can find some high level athletes to rehab, or that you can become affiliate with a team/college/S&C facility.
 
I think you're right to some extent when you say "who you know" and that is sometimes a bad thing.

And even though "who you know is more important than what you know" you still better know your stuff or you'll be out fast.

I completely agree that a DPT will make you a more effective ATC and CSCS. I'm just not sure about the other way around. I feel that the concepts ATC & CSCS are rudimentary compared to PT. Yes, there will be some benefit, but, I would say that it is far from a necessity to have an ATC/CSCS to rehab athletes.

So a DPT program teaches you everything you need to know about resistance training and sport-specific movements?

How many BS and MPT programs are there now? Physical therapist are recognized at the gold standard for movement rehabilitation. That is why they get reimbursed.

You compared degree to degree. And why is it that a PTA (with an associates degree) can be reimbursed but an athletic trainer (with AT LEAST a bachelors) cannot? Oh yeah, politics again..
 
I am both a DPT and and ATC and the DPT, no matter what their post graduate training, does not compare with what the ATC knows, does, or is able to do with athletes. I have worked around many many PTs with bachelors, masters, and doctorates and none of them have the skill set of an athletic trainer who is decent.

Maybe I came from a bad ATC program, and saw great PT's working with athletes. But, the difference I rehab skills I saw from an ATC versus a PT was significant. And, again, if PT's aren't needed, then why are colleges and pro sports outsourcing to PT's?

Sure, there are poor ATCs, but in my experience, the NATA BOC certification exam was waay harder than the PT licensure exam.
The BOC was a beast!!!
The idea that an ATC does only the small stuff is ludicrous. The ATC is perhaps a generalist in the athletic world, but when compared to the entire universe of rehab, they ARE the standard.
Then how come they don't get treated like it? Why do ATC's have to scratch and claw for reimbursement? Why do ATC's outsource some rehab to PT's? Why, when people are injured do they go to a PT and not an ATC?
Those of you who are debating this without both credentials really are standing on shifting sand. I know both types of training and the training of a DPT is nothing compared to that of an athletic trainer when it comes to evaluating, treating, managing, and preventing athletic injuries.
Yeah, again, I may be giving PT's too much credit and ATC's not enough, but, this is what I have seen in my education and experiences.




In any event, I think that what really matters most, what will really make you a good clinician, is what you do after you graduate. No program, be it CSCS, ATC, DPT, will teach you everything you need to know about a subject. It is was you do after you stop studying to receive a grade that matters most. If you want to rehab athletes, study your ass off, do everything in your power to get better and become the best at doing what you want to do. If you are good enough, hopefully, someone will give you a chance.

I think you're right to some extent when you say "who you know" and that is sometimes a bad thing.
Sometimes??? I don't know about you, but if I were an athlete, I would want the most qualified person working on me, not the guy who knows how to network better.
And even though "who you know is more important than what you know" you still better know your stuff or you'll be out fast.
I agree you should definately strive to be great at what you do, but, at least in strength & conditioning, there are still plenty of garbage coaches in positions I would die for. See video below... LITERALLY, garbage coaches...

[YOUTUBE]Tqo2duz9gcQ[/YOUTUBE]
You compared degree to degree. And why is it that a PTA (with an associates degree) can be reimbursed but an athletic trainer (with AT LEAST a bachelors) cannot? Oh yeah, politics again..
Possibly because PTA's, as their name implies, have to be under a PT.
 
DeFranco is a decent coach ^^^ Look at his other videos.

Truthseeker, atstudent, 9433, instead debating round and round whether or not PT's have a place in athletics, I want to pose a question. If working at the professional level is something you desire, what is the best way to earn this career if you are already going to PT school? How do you get there?

Work as a strength coach if you have your CSCS and work your way up through the minor leagues?

Go back and get your ATC and work as an AT with a dual DPT/ATC?

Networking since it seems to be about who you know?
 
DeFranco is a decent coach ^^^ Look at his other videos.
I'm not saying he doesn't do some good things here and there, but, there are probably some better coaches out there that don't have their athletes push around dumpsters after climbing in them and then reusing the weights they just put in there.
Truthseeker, atstudent, 9433, instead debating round and round whether or not PT's have a place in athletics, I want to pose a question.
Thank God!!! I was getting tired of the circle talk. Hopefully we can do something more productive.
If working at the professional level is something you desire, what is the best way to earn this career if you are already going to PT school? How do you get there?
Work as a strength coach if you have your CSCS and work your way up through the minor leagues?
The minor league baseball clubs are probably the easiest way to become affiliated with pro sports. But, you're getting paid in pennies, pretty much. And it's probably a long ladder to climb. I think the Buffalo Bills also have a 5 week pre-season internship thing for strength coaches at the end of summer, too.
Go back and get your ATC and work as an AT with a dual DPT/ATC?
That just seems like a lot of work for not that much in return. But again, maybe have a dual cert. is a requirement to be on a pro sports team. And, as it stands now, the only people getting directly hired by pro-teams are ATC's and S&C coaches, so, there is something to say about that.
Networking since it seems to be about who you know?
Knowing the right people definitely isn't going to hurt you.




I think probably the simplest way to go about it is to be in the private setting, and not necessarily be affiliated with any team. That will give you the flexibility to do what you need to do, be it rehabilitation, prehab, strength & conditioning, or somewhere in between. Or work as a PT for a S&C facility like Mike Boyle's place, Cressey Performance, Athletes' performance, or somewhere like that.
 
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Then how come they don't get treated like it? Why do ATC's have to scratch and claw for reimbursement? Why do ATC's outsource some rehab to PT's? Why, when people are injured do they go to a PT and not an ATC?

The real reason is not necessarily competence, it is history. Historically, ATCs worked for the team or the school and did not bill the athletes for their services. Only recently have ATCs begun to move into the third party payor system. I don't think that is right either. The training is incredibly in-depth with regard to athletic populations, basically well people. The PT degree is more broad, encompassing many other types of patients with many co-morbidities that the ATC does not encounter in practice or in school.

Why do the ATCs oursource some rehab? most often it is because there is a relationship between the team and the clinic doing the rehab, so in part, they are throwing bones but for the most part, it is the guys/girls that are unable to travel with the team that are staying home and getting their rehab during the 10 day road-trip.

When people get hurt, they go to a doctor, then might get referred to PT. If they have a relationship with a good ATC, they may go there but the ATC doesn't charge them because generally, trainers don't charge people. They earn a salary that is not dependent upon reimbursement. They (we) are really the cost of doing business to the team in order to maintain the relative effectiveness of the organization.
 
All fair points truthseeker. How do you feel about MJHUSKERS' question about making it to the big leagues?
 
Truthseeker, atstudent, 9433, instead debating round and round whether or not PT's have a place in athletics, I want to pose a question. If working at the professional level is something you desire, what is the best way to earn this career if you are already going to PT school? How do you get there?

Ideal situation would be to graduate from whatever degree program you are in and during school. During your PT program, set up one of your clinical rotations at a clinic that has an affiliation with a team. Kerlan-Jobe is one in Denver, Sports Rehab in Kansas City etc . . . If the internship goes well, you and there is an opening there, you might get a job there. You will start treating all of the people that the higher ups don't want to treat. If you prove yourself an excellent clinician and everyone there gets along with you you might get to start treating some athletes. Often, the marquie athletes will still go to the lead therapist.

If you are an athletic trainer, try to get involved with residencies or internships with teams. Usually, you volunteer your services and if they like you, you might be invited back. These can be done with just about any sport including the Olympic training centers. I know that the USOC has a very specific program and you can check that out online. MLB trainers start in the minors just like the players and work their way up. Sometimes when people are poised to get the job in "the Show" the manager gets fired and the new one brings in his own guy/girl.

It is tough to get in, but once you are in, you are in. The pay is generally less because the position is so desirable to some. i.e. you get paid more to cover 5 nursing homes in rural western Nebraska than you do rehabbing elite athletes because its harder to fill the rural spot.
 
All fair points truthseeker. How do you feel about MJHUSKERS' question about making it to the big leagues?

I'm not truthseeker, but it's definitely not an easy road to the big leagues. Most often you have to work your way up and that means starting low making little money. Some of them starting out are lucky to make $30k a year. If you're lucky to skip the minors and get hired straight on, I would imagine you've spent plenty of time honing your craft elsewhere and have established yourself as being a good clinician with lots of experience with athletes.

Mike Reinhold, for example, appears that he did not work in the minor leagues. I think he was hired by the Red Sox as an Assistant AT and Physical Therapist at he Major League level. BUT he had spent at least a few years working in Alabama with Dr. Andrews. That kind of experience is going to help you go places.

I do think that a DPT would have a hard time breaking into the professional setting in a traditional sense mainly due to the requirements of working at the lower levels first or working for low pay. You're not going to become a coordinator right away if you have no other professional experience.
 
Truthseeker makes a good point trying to get a clinical at a clinic that is associated with a ball club.

So guys, is it sensible to even get your DPT if you want to work as a strength coach or AT or rehab coordinator with a big league ball club?

I have met so many brilliant PT's that treat high school/college level athletes at their private practice and as I have said, two of these guys turned down working with the Brewers and Twins because the salary is way too low compared to what they are making.

Am I making a mistake starting PT school this coming fall if my goals are to work at the professional level? I can't imagine having a DPT and CSCS is going to hurt me in my career aspirations. However, as 9433 mentioned, at some point it's going to come down to who does the best job and getting your name out there.
 
Truthseeker makes a good point trying to get a clinical at a clinic that is associated with a ball club.

So guys, is it sensible to even get your DPT if you want to work as a strength coach or AT or rehab coordinator with a big league ball club?

I have met so many brilliant PT's that treat high school/college level athletes at their private practice and as I have said, two of these guys turned down working with the Brewers and Twins because the salary is way too low compared to what they are making.

Am I making a mistake starting PT school this coming fall if my goals are to work at the professional level? I can't imagine having a DPT and CSCS is going to hurt me in my career aspirations. However, as 9433 mentioned, at some point it's going to come down to who does the best job and getting your name out there.


Its not going to hurt your chances necessarily, but the pay may not warrant the expense of the DPT. It is much more fun to be an ATC or work with a team but because it is harder to discriminate between the good and the not-so-good, the pay is lower. Those that are well known and are potentially wealthier, are those that create products for sale, that actually sell well. Vern Gambetta, Gray Cook and many others.

The point is, the DPT is not a natural entry-point into the sports world. The ATC is, CSCS is. the latter two are less expensive to acquire. The hours of an ATC are brutal.

A good friend of mine was offered the head trainer jobs for two NHL teams after working for 5-6 years in one farm system and moonlighting in our clinic during the off-season. He decided that he would spend more time with his family if he were a PEDIATRICIAN. So he went to medical school and is now practicing.

Compare the hourly rate between an pediatrician and NHL trainer and I am guessing that the trainer makes maybe $10/hour after all is said and done. Plus the trainer is on call just like the pediatrician, but every night, not just every 6th day or whatever for a pediatrician with 5 partners.
 
Good points by all!! I think the main take home message is that if you want to work with athletes, be prepared for a long, difficult journey and try to make as many contacts along the way as possible.

Advice for PT's... Do your clinicals at a sports specific clinic and pray a spot opens up while you are there. But, direct hire for a team or university is highly unlikely

Advice for ATC's... Get a GA position at a big name school and after that, try to find an internship (if you don't mind not making money for a while).

Strength coaches... GA at a big school, hopefully a spot will open up there. And as far as making it to the pros... Try to intern and network.
 
Good points by all!! I think the main take home message is that if you want to work with athletes, be prepared for a long, difficult journey and try to make as many contacts along the way as possible.

Advice for PT's... Do your clinicals at a sports specific clinic and pray a spot opens up while you are there. But, direct hire for a team or university is highly unlikely

Advice for ATC's... Get a GA position at a big name school and after that, try to find an internship (if you don't mind not making money for a while).

Strength coaches... GA at a big school, hopefully a spot will open up there. And as far as making it to the pros... Try to intern and network.

I think you're absolutely right. Getting into the professional sports relm is definitely difficult and it's interesting at times. I have tried twice to get an NFL training camp internship and have been rejected both times. I had a buddy who goes to a smaller school get invited to go across the country for one this summer. And he claims to not know anybody. Last year I was able to get an internship in professional baseball but very low level. I will consider seeking a fulltime job with a team in that league next year, we'll see.. gotta start somewhere..
 
Getting into the professional sports relm is definitely difficult and it's interesting at times. I have tried twice to get an NFL training camp internship and have been rejected both times. I had a buddy who goes to a smaller school get invited to go across the country for one this summer. And he claims to not know anybody.
Internships and GA spots shouldn't be overly difficult (still not a walk in the park) to attain, since they have a constant turn-over rate.
Last year I was able to get an internship in professional baseball but very low level. I will consider seeking a fulltime job with a team in that league next year, we'll see.. gotta start somewhere..
Well, good luck to you! I hope things turn out well. It seems like you are motivated, know what you want, and are willing to do the work to get there, so, keep working and hopefully something will happen.
 
Internships and GA spots shouldn't be overly difficult (still not a walk in the park) to attain, since they have a constant turn-over rate.

You would think. But according to the letters that I received, each time typically get something like 100-150 applications per position with most of them having 2-5 openings each year. I don't know.. may try again next year although I'll be certified already..
 
Because I am not an ATC, I can't contribute much to that side of the conversation except from my experiences with them on the field and clinically. That said, you guys have said everything I would've said so I don't have much to add. ATC's are the MDs best friend on the field. PTs serve best as rehab consultants (and do have their place within the sports medicine team). If you have both credentials, all the more better!

On the PT side, I do agree with truthseeker. One of your best bets to accelerate working with pro teams is scoring hard-to-get sports clinicals at sites affiliated with pro teams. Another option is doing a sports residency (which usually has close ties with pro teams and doubles as training towards the SCS). I had the fortune of doing clinicals at both the Kerlan-Jobe Clinic and at Howard Head Sports Medicine (at the Steadman-Hawkins Clinic). Definitely got my foot in the door. However, I don't really have the goal of working with pro athletes my entire life. I do affiliate with the US Ski and Snowboard Teams and get to travel with them. But to do this, sport-specific first responder training was required. I also had to do extra on-the-slope emergency response training.

In the end, "who you know" definitely helps because they are the one's that can help give the final word and make recommendations to the teams. If you want to work with pro teams as a DPT-SCS/ATC/CSCS, you have to work hard clinically and create a solid network of people "in the know." You also have to make some smart (and sometimes lucky) decisions to get your foot in the door.
 
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