Can someone explain to me how the Uniformed Services Medical School works?

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Tawantinsuyu

From what i understand, the US government covers all tuition in exchange for your service in the military? Why doesn't everyone do this since med school is so expensive and everyone complains so much about paying off loans? Is your salary as a physician lower or something? After your military service, can you just be a normal physician or can you only work at US government hospitals? Is it difficult to get into certain residencies or something?

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From what i understand, the US government covers all tuition in exchange for your service in the military? Why doesn't everyone do this since med school is so expensive and everyone complains so much about paying off loans? Is your salary as a physician lower or something? After your military service, can you just be a normal physician or can you only work at US government hospitals? Is it difficult to get into certain residencies or something?


1. You don't get to choose where you practice/live until the years of service you owe after graduation are up
2. Not everyone wants to join the military
 
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How long does it take, on average, for normal medical school students to pay off med school loans? Does such a statistic exist? I know that it will probably widely vary based on where you go to school, your current financial situation, what kind of doctor you become....etc....
 
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This should help some:

http://www.usuhs.edu/medschool/pdf/WhatYouNeedtoKnow.pdf

The biggest pill to swallow is the post-graduate four to seven years of active duty you are legally obligated to fulfill. From what I read, there are no restrictions on specialty and they want you to finish residency before you begin your service. You are not obligated, after that, to stay in the military and can do as you please. However, depending on how many additional years of active duty you perform (beyond 7 years), you may be on Reserve for years after that in case the President calls on you for an emergency.
 
Some people do not want to practice medicine in a war zone.
There is also more/different B.S. in the military than in civilian life and not everyone has the personality for that sort of thing.
 
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Wanting to serve in the military is as much a calling as Medicine is.

While Ft Hood, Miramar or Pearl Harbor might be nice duty stations, you don't get to choose, so go look up Thule Air Base, Camp Red Cloud in Uijongbu, or Diego Garcia.
 
Wanting to serve in the military is as much a calling as Medicine is.

While Ft Hood, Miramar or Pearl Harbor might be nice duty stations, you don't get to choose, so go look up Thule Air Base, Camp Red Cloud in Uijongbu, or Diego Garcia.

I spent a year there, lived on base, and Camp Red Cloud was awesome. Camp Casey OTOH.... not so much. Both are still only an hour subway ride from Seoul and in the middle of the massive suburban expansion.
 
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I would absolutely do the military if I could go to med school, choose exactly which specialty/residency I wanted, do my military time after training (or before, if I still had the same shot at getting into a good residency), then find a fellowship straight from that to get me back into the civilian pool. I know a career in the military is not for me, but I've always wanted to get involved with it at least briefly.
 
Wanting to serve in the military is as much a calling as Medicine is.

While Ft Hood, Miramar or Pearl Harbor might be nice duty stations, you don't get to choose, so go look up Thule Air Base, Camp Red Cloud in Uijongbu, or Diego Garcia.

I havent served, and thus cant comment from personal experience, but from what i've heard it might be worth olace ft. Hood in the list of place you might get asigned to and dread every minute of... (http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.h...p_t2&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http://)

I would absolutely do the military if I could go to med school, choose exactly which specialty/residency I wanted, do my military time after training (or before, if I still had the same shot at getting into a good residency), then find a fellowship straight from that to get me back into the civilian pool. I know a career in the military is not for me, but I've always wanted to get involved with it at least briefly.

You can. While not every speciality is an option the military would likely be happy to take you for 4+ years post residency and they'll even pay off a sizable amount of loans in exchange, or they'll pay you extra during residency in exchange for years of service.
 
I havent served, and thus cant comment from personal experience, but from what i've heard it might be worth olace ft. Hood in the list of place you might get asigned to and dread every minute of... (http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/us/2014/04/03/nr-intv-fort-hood-soldier-black-hole.cnn&hpt=hp_t2&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http://)



You can. While not every speciality is an option the military would likely be happy to take you for 4+ years post residency and they'll even pay off a sizable amount of loans in exchange, or they'll pay you extra during residency in exchange for years of service.
I'm assuming you're talking FAP? That's one of my back burner ideas, though depending on the level of debt it may not pay it all off. My biggest concern is getting back into the civilian fast track once you leave for MilMed for a bit.
 
I'm assuming you're talking FAP? That's one of my back burner ideas, though depending on the level of debt it may not pay it all off. My biggest concern is getting back into the civilian fast track once you leave for MilMed for a bit.
FAP in the case of more pay during residency. However, board certified physicians are eligible for signing bonuses so you can dely signing up even longer: http://www.navy.com/careers/healthcare/physician.html - Practicing physicians can receive a sign-on bonus of $220,000 to $400,000* when you qualify (dependent on speciality and contract length, I assume the other branches offer the same/similar)
 
FAP in the case of more pay during residency. However, board certified physicians are eligible for signing bonuses so you can dely signing up even longer: http://www.navy.com/careers/healthcare/physician.html - Practicing physicians can receive a sign-on bonus of $220,000 to $400,000* when you qualify (dependent on speciality and contract length, I assume the other branches offer the same/similar)
I was figuring it'd be best to leave fellowships/other such things until after service to ease the transition back (aka I'd rather apply for jobs after working stateside for a year and networking rather than being deployed, possibly, or stationed in no-man's-land, USA.)
 
From what i understand, the US government covers all tuition in exchange for your service in the military? Why doesn't everyone do this since med school is so expensive and everyone complains so much about paying off loans? Is your salary as a physician lower or something? After your military service, can you just be a normal physician or can you only work at US government hospitals? Is it difficult to get into certain residencies or something?
Hi Tawantinsuyu,

The post's a little lengthy but I wanted to answer your question thoroughly. I'm currently a 2nd year student at USUHS and I absolutely love it here (as does 99% of every class). But since your question wasn't why USUHS is quite possible the best med school, I'll stick to your original question of "How does USUHS work?"

There's a lot of misinformation out there, some of which I was subject to before applying here, so I want to clarify things as best as I can because the curriculum and additional training is really terrific.

Before going to this school you will commission as an officer in either the army, navy, air force, or public health service (think NIH or Indian Reservations). Yes you will go to basic, but it's officer basic- with a focus on being a medical officer. After this you'll basically go to medical school plus. Yes, all tuition, books, fees, insurance, etc are free. You will also be salaried and receive housing allowance as a 2LT because you will be an active duty officer. Pre clerkships will be 1.5 yrs and then you're off to rotations. The curriculum has been working great and the first class that underwent it crushed their step 1. Even if you're active duty, MEDICAL SCHOOL WILL BE YOUR FOCUS. I think this is a common misconception. What makes USUHS unique is aside from wanting you to become an exceptional physician, you also have to be an officer. So you will get additional military training sprinkled into your medical training. You will also get additional medical training and opportunities- for example we were learning how to do needle decompressions, chest tubes, etc before we even learned how to do CPR- Oh and we did that too, got certified in BLS AND ACLS in our first year (something most people do much later on).

Another misconception: I can't do the specialty I want. False. Much like in the civilian world, if you're a good medical student, you'll get the residency you want. You will have to do them at Military TEACHING hospitals. So these are the big hospitals, which are on par with other university hospitals, not small clinics. Yes the military has several hospitals and clinics, but not all of them have residency programs.

Is your salary lower? Well it depends on how you view it. If you count tuition, your salary, and benefits for the first four years and add that on top of everything else- it's close. You'll probably also make more during your residency years as you will be promoted to a captain upon graduation of medical school. Plus you don't pay malpractice insurance. As an attending, you'll probably make less, but you'll still be paid a very good salary (which also varies by specialty).

The payback is 7 years. During this time you can get assigned to any of your branch's hospitals, but you're specialty will somehow dictate where you're a fit for. However, make no mistakes about it, you will get deployed/go overseas (probably 2/3 times during this payback period). BUT you are not going to be out on the front lines, shooting and what not. You are a military doctor that they have invested A LOT of money in. You're main job is to care for the injured brave men and women of our military and save lives at the base's hospital. You'll be deployed in 6-9 month increments. Although people may volunteer for longer (i.e those in Japan, Germany, Spain, etc).

People also often get fellowships. These again are done at the teaching hospitals. Also a lot of people do their fellowships in private schools (Harvard, Mayo, etc). If you choose to do this while you're still paying back- you'll have to add years since you're being salaried and not technically paying back your time.

After your service can you get civilian jobs? Absolutely. The amount of leadership experience you will have, your medical proficiency, and your versatility (think about it, you can lead disaster relief efforts, serve as a brigade surgeon, etc) will be a huge draw if you want to work in the civilian sector.

So why doesn't everyone do it?
I think it's two things. As alluded to before, the military is not for everyone. That's just a fact of life. Some people don't like very structured/hierarchal things, some people can't fathom being gone for 6-9 months, etc. Everyone has their own reasons. The other reason is that there's a lot of misinformation, which is why I wanted to write a thorough answer. I didn't seriously consider going into the military until my sophomore year of college. Then I tried to clarify some questions I had. I also really wanted to serve this country and the brave people that defend it.

I can go on about all the unique things that make USUHS great, but I won't. Hope this clarified some things!
 
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FAP in the case of more pay during residency. However, board certified physicians are eligible for signing bonuses so you can dely signing up even longer: http://www.navy.com/careers/healthcare/physician.html - Practicing physicians can receive a sign-on bonus of $220,000 to $400,000* when you qualify (dependent on speciality and contract length, I assume the other branches offer the same/similar)
The military will not pay you $400k up front as a sign-on bonus. The way it works is you have to commit to more years of service after the initial contract and you get a per-year pay bump based on the number of additional years you re-commit to. They like to flaunt huge numbers like that but it's not nearly as good as it sounds.
 
I'm assuming you're talking FAP? That's one of my back burner ideas, though depending on the level of debt it may not pay it all off. My biggest concern is getting back into the civilian fast track once you leave for MilMed for a bit.
It's easy to go back to the civilian side. That's what I did, civilian fellowship after payback and I never looked back. I was heavily recruited. Everyone loves a vet, and there are lots of vets in academia.
 
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The military will not pay you $400k up front as a sign-on bonus. The way it works is you have to commit to more years of service after the initial contract and you get a per-year pay bump based on the number of additional years you re-commit to. They like to flaunt huge numbers like that but it's not nearly as good as it sounds.
Yes they will. He's not talking about the extension bonuses which are paid annually, he's referring to the sign on bonuses for fully trained civilian physicians who sign up. Anesthesia used to be $396k for the standard 4 year AD commitment. Keep in mind you would have to be in the reserve (presumably inactive) for 4 more years as all officers have an 8 year commitment.
 
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Yes they will. He's not talking about the extension bonuses which are paid annually, he's referring to the sign on bonuses for fully trained civilian physicians who sign up. Anesthesia used to be $396k for the standard 4 year AD commitment. Keep in mind you would have to be in the reserve (presumably inactive) for 4 more years as all officers have an 8 year commitment.
Hmm, I didn't read it wrong but I could have sworn I'd seen a mil med doc explain this before in the way I was describing. My mistake.


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I would absolutely do the military if I could go to med school, choose exactly which specialty/residency I wanted, do my military time after training (or before, if I still had the same shot at getting into a good residency), then find a fellowship straight from that to get me back into the civilian pool. I know a career in the military is not for me, but I've always wanted to get involved with it at least briefly.
Have you thought about the reserves? I have thought about HPSP and FAP, but after reading people's experiences I don't know if I want to be a full-time military physician. I would mostly want to do deployments and take care of the wounded and healthy troops in the war zone. If I'm not that old when I become an attending, maybe I'll join the reserves.
 
There are big bonuses offered to people whose commitments are up as well for signing on for more time. They vary considerably by specialty and length (1-4 years). I believe that anesthesia was an additional $16k for 1 year and $52k/year for 4 years.
An anesthesiologist could potentially get a 400k sign on bonus, do 4 years, commit to 4 more and get 200k more (over 4 years). BUT, you'd STILL make less than a civilian anesthesiologist over those 8 years, much less, and be subject to deployments, relocations, etc. You have to want to be in the .mil.
 
Hmm, I didn't read it wrong but I could have sworn I'd seen a mil med doc explain this before in the way I was describing. My mistake.


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http://projects.militarytimes.com/pay-charts/2013/medical_dental/

I'll defer a bit to IIDestriero but i believe these are two seperate, mutually exclusive programs. You can take a one time signing bonus (although in the link above it's discribed as "war time" so it could disappear at anytime) or annual MSP/ISP. The better deal would depend on how long one serves. Additionally, those numbers are from the Navy (which i have looked at more), other branches might have somewhat different programs.

In any case, while a military physician will live a comfortable life (money wise anyways) it certaintly isnt your road to riches. Finally, and only because it hasnt been mentioned (explicitly) yet, USUHS students make right around $60,000/year (some tax free) during med school...
 
Hi Tawantinsuyu,

The post's a little lengthy but I wanted to answer your question thoroughly. I'm currently a 2nd year student at USUHS and I absolutely love it here (as does 99% of every class). But since your question wasn't why USUHS is quite possible the best med school, I'll stick to your original question of "How does USUHS work?"

There's a lot of misinformation out there, some of which I was subject to before applying here, so I want to clarify things as best as I can because the curriculum and additional training is really terrific.

Before going to this school you will commission as an officer in either the army, navy, air force, or public health service (think NIH or Indian Reservations). Yes you will go to basic, but it's officer basic- with a focus on being a medical officer. After this you'll basically go to medical school plus. Yes, all tuition, books, fees, insurance, etc are free. You will also be salaried and receive housing allowance as a 2LT because you will be an active duty officer. Pre clerkships will be 1.5 yrs and then you're off to rotations. The curriculum has been working great and the first class that underwent it crushed their step 1. Even if you're active duty, MEDICAL SCHOOL WILL BE YOUR FOCUS. I think this is a common misconception. What makes USUHS unique is aside from wanting you to become an exceptional physician, you also have to be an officer. So you will get additional military training sprinkled into your medical training. You will also get additional medical training and opportunities- for example we were learning how to do needle decompressions, chest tubes, etc before we even learned how to do CPR- Oh and we did that too, got certified in BLS AND ACLS in our first year (something most people do much later on).

Another misconception: I can't do the specialty I want. False. Much like in the civilian world, if you're a good medical student, you'll get the residency you want. You will have to do them at Military TEACHING hospitals. So these are the big hospitals, which are on par with other university hospitals, not small clinics. Yes the military has several hospitals and clinics, but not all of them have residency programs.

Is your salary lower? Well it depends on how you view it. If you count tuition, your salary, and benefits for the first four years and add that on top of everything else- it's close. You'll probably also make more during your residency years as you will be promoted to a captain upon graduation of medical school. Plus you don't pay malpractice insurance. As an attending, you'll probably make less, but you'll still be paid a very good salary (which also varies by specialty).

The payback is 7 years. During this time you can get assigned to any of your branch's hospitals, but you're specialty will somehow dictate where you're a fit for. However, make no mistakes about it, you will get deployed/go overseas (probably 2/3 times during this payback period). BUT you are not going to be out on the front lines, shooting and what not. You are a military doctor that they have invested A LOT of money in. You're main job is to care for the injured brave men and women of our military and save lives at the base's hospital. You'll be deployed in 6-9 month increments. Although people may volunteer for longer (i.e those in Japan, Germany, Spain, etc).

People also often get fellowships. These again are done at the teaching hospitals. Also a lot of people do their fellowships in private schools (Harvard, Mayo, etc). If you choose to do this while you're still paying back- you'll have to add years since you're being salaried and not technically paying back your time.

After your service can you get civilian jobs? Absolutely. The amount of leadership experience you will have, your medical proficiency, and your versatility (think about it, you can lead disaster relief efforts, serve as a brigade surgeon, etc) will be a huge draw if you want to work in the civilian sector.

So why doesn't everyone do it?
I think it's two things. As alluded to before, the military is not for everyone. That's just a fact of life. Some people don't like very structured/hierarchal things, some people can't fathom being gone for 6-9 months, etc. Everyone has their own reasons. The other reason is that there's a lot of misinformation, which is why I wanted to write a thorough answer. I didn't seriously consider going into the military until my sophomore year of college. Then I tried to clarify some questions I had. I also really wanted to serve this country and the brave people that defend it.

I can go on about all the unique things that make USUHS great, but I won't. Hope this clarified some things!

Haha, you are making me even more inpatient for next Fall!
 
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Have you thought about the reserves? I have thought about HPSP and FAP, but after reading people's experiences I don't know if I want to be a full-time military physician. I would mostly want to do deployments and take care of the wounded and healthy troops in the war zone. If I'm not that old when I become an attending, maybe I'll join the reserves.
I'm concerned about the unpredictability and how that could potentially impact any education plans I set into motion. I just feel like if I'm going to do it, I want to do it on my own terms, you know?
 
I'm concerned about the unpredictability and how that could potentially impact any education plans I set into motion. I just feel like if I'm going to do it, I want to do it on my own terms, you know?
Yeah, I know. With the reserves you come in as a fully specialize physician. However, it also depends on your specialty and if it's in need. Some of the military guys over there on MilMed forum say it's a myth that the military gets to choose your specialty. From the top of my head I know the military likes to have FM, EM, IM, GS, trauma surgeons, orthopedics, and psychiatry as preferred specialties for their reserves.
 
Yeah, I know. With the reserves you come in as a fully specialize physician. However, it also depends on your specialty and if it's in need. Some of the military guys over there on MilMed forum say it's a myth that the military gets to choose your specialty. From the top of my head I know the military likes to have FM, EM, IM, GS, trauma surgeons, orthopedics, and psychiatry as preferred specialties for their reserves.
It's not that so much, but more a concern about what impact a deployment could have on my career if it pulled me away from my job suddenly. Yeah, yeah, they can say you'll be able to come back with everything unchanged, but at some level there is discontinuity and a concern about long term projects, no?
 
It's not that so much, but more a concern about what impact a deployment could have on my career if it pulled me away from my job suddenly. Yeah, yeah, they can say you'll be able to come back with everything unchanged, but at some level there is discontinuity and a concern about long term projects, no?
That's what the reserves are mostly for. You can get called to temporarily stay at a base to cover another military doc who is on deployment or get a deployment date. If I were to end up doing PP, I doubt I would end up joining the military.

From the military medicine documentaries I have seen about Afghanistan, docs stay inside a huge base and the thing that might get to you emotionally is seeing young guys losing limbs, but it's not like you won't see tragedies back in the states.
 
That's what the reserves are mostly for. You can get called to temporarily stay at a base to cover another military doc who is on deployment or get a deployment date. If I were to end up doing PP, I doubt I would end up joining the military.

From the military medicine documentaries I have seen about Afghanistan, docs stay inside a huge base and the thing that might get to you emotionally is seeing young guys losing limbs, but it's not like you won't see tragedies back in the states.
I really don't think we're talking about the same things
 
LOL maybe not.

what projects do you mean?
I'm not at all concerned about the military aspect of things. I just don't want a deployment to affect anything going on in my actual career: medicine. I don't like the idea that I could randomly be pulled away from my job, no matter if I have projects going on at work (whether that be research, departmental work, etc.) I feel that the constant threat of disruption like that could impact the opportunities available to me, whether I am offered participation on projects, networking, things of that nature.
Thus, I am leery of the reserves route and more interested in a setup where I deploy in a predictable schedule which I choose (or at least am aware of) well in advance.
 
I'm not at all concerned about the military aspect of things. I just don't want a deployment to affect anything going on in my actual career: medicine. I don't like the idea that I could randomly be pulled away from my job, no matter if I have projects going on at work (whether that be research, departmental work, etc.) I feel that the constant threat of disruption like that could impact the opportunities available to me, whether I am offered participation on projects, networking, things of that nature.
Thus, I am leery of the reserves route and more interested in a setup where I deploy in a predictable schedule which I choose (or at least am aware of) well in advance.
Hmm, military is not for you. ;) Don't take this the wrong way, but it's called "serving your country, not your country serving you."
 
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Hmm, military is not for you. ;) Don't take this the wrong way, but it's called "serving your country, not your country serving you."
You can have both. I have no objection to putting in 5-7yrs of my life, I just want to do it in a way that doesn't eff my career.
Similarly, I plan to someday do DWB, but I will sure as hell be planning that so that I can serve others without screwing myself over in the process.

You don't have to go about it in the most self-detrimental way possible in order for it to count.
 
You can have both. I have no objection to putting in 5-7yrs of my life, I just want to do it in a way that doesn't eff my career.
Similarly, I plan to someday do DWB, but I will sure as hell be planning that so that I can serve others without screwing myself over in the process.

You don't have to go about it in the most self-detrimental way possible in order for it to count.
What's DWB?
 
You are right, though...I wouldn't be in the military to serve my country. I'm not particularly proud of my country.

I'd be in it mostly to serve those who put their lives out there to serve their country. Them I'm proud of. They do what I could not.
And yes, I'd be in partially because I think the military itself is good at what it does, and I have respect for that and would love to be a part of it.
 
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Hi Tawantinsuyu,

The post's a little lengthy but I wanted to answer your question thoroughly. I'm currently a 2nd year student at USUHS and I absolutely love it here (as does 99% of every class). But since your question wasn't why USUHS is quite possible the best med school, I'll stick to your original question of "How does USUHS work?"

There's a lot of misinformation out there

Speaking of misinformation...

You will also get additional medical training and opportunities- for example we were learning how to do needle decompressions, chest tubes, etc before we even learned how to do CPR- Oh and we did that too, got certified in BLS AND ACLS in our first year (something most people do much later on).

Congrats. Unfortunately ACLS is a complete waste of time and there's no evidence supporting its use. All this proves is that the ridiculous BS starts even earlier.

Another misconception: I can't do the specialty I want. False. Much like in the civilian world, if you're a good medical student, you'll get the residency you want.

You forgot to mention GMO tours (that are not in the specialty of your choice).

You will have to do them at Military TEACHING hospitals. So these are the big hospitals, which are on par with other university hospitals, not small clinics. Yes the military has several hospitals and clinics, but not all of them have residency programs.

The vast majority of military "teaching hospitals" are no where near as big as university hospitals and don't see anywhere are many sick patients.

Just wait, you'll see.

The payback is 7 years. During this time you can get assigned to any of your branch's hospitals, but you're specialty will somehow dictate where you're a fit for. However, make no mistakes about it, you will get deployed/go overseas (probably 2/3 times during this payback period). BUT you are not going to be out on the front lines, shooting and what not. You are a military doctor that they have invested A LOT of money in. You're main job is to care for the injured brave men and women of our military and save lives at the base's hospital.

Your main job is to do whatever the military tells you which more often that not consists of administrative work and endless online training modules.

Patient care always comes second in the military.

After your service can you get civilian jobs? Absolutely. The amount of leadership experience you will have, your medical proficiency, and your versatility (think about it, you can lead disaster relief efforts, serve as a brigade surgeon, etc) will be a huge draw if you want to work in the civilian sector.

Your medical proficiency is likely to be well below that of your civilian colleagues depending on your specialty and duty station.

Do some military physicians get lucky and have great experiences? Sure. The vast majority do not however.
 
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Speaking of misinformation...



Congrats. Unfortunately ACLS is a complete waste of time and there's no evidence supporting its use. All this proves is that the ridiculous BS starts even earlier.



You forgot to mention GMO tours (that are not in the specialty of your choice).



The vast majority of military "teaching hospitals" are no where near as big as university hospitals and don't see anywhere are many sick patients.

Just wait, you'll see.



Your main job is to do whatever the military tells you which more often that not consists of administrative work and endless online training modules.

Patient care always comes second in the military.



Your medical proficiency is likely to be well below that of your civilian colleagues depending on your specialty and duty station.

Do some military physicians get lucky and have great experiences? Sure. The vast majority do not however.

Hey Alpinism,

Thanks for the response and bringing up several important points. Unfortunately, I think you are mistaken/misinformed on several things; I'll try to clarify things as best I can.

1) Uselessness of ACLS- I'm not going to argue the effectiveness/ importance of advance cardiac life support, except say that running codes (i.e when in t.v shows they yell clear, push epi, etc- this isn't really how it goes, but just to reference people as to what this is) are used by all hospitals. I don't know why you think this is useless. All I was implying is we get several extra training as medical students. We also have opportunities life doing FLS (fundamentals of laproscopic surgery), several simulators, several ultrasound labs, etc as early as our 1st yr.

2) GMO tours- for those that don't know, GMOs are General Medical Officers. First off, the Army basically doesn't do GMOs, same with the Air Force. It's the Navy with the GMOs (and even then, it's not all of them). GMOs are basically family docs who deploy on a ship/ base for about 2 yrs. Then they come back, and guess what- they get to do whatever specialty they want- like the other branches. Again, I'm not saying everyone get's their specialty, you have to be a good candidate, just like in civilian schools. You can't fail classes, do terribly on your boards and rotations and expect to do a "lifestyle" specialty. So yes, you get to do the specialty you want- for the Navy you might be delayed, but you'll get to do it.

3) Walter Reed National Naval Medical Center, San Antonio Medical Center, Madigan, Tripler, Naval Hospital at San Diego, Portsmouth, etc are all major hospitals. Then there's medium sized hospitals like Ft. Belvoir, Ft. Hood, Eisenhower, Ft. Bragg, Pensacola, Nellis etc. These are the type of teaching hospitals we get to rotate at. Few medical schools have the chance to rotate at such big hospitals and they're around the country! Sure you might have you're school's major hospital, if you're Harvard you'll have like 7 major hospitals, but in general it's tough to match this opportunity. If you look at USUHS as just one medical school, the amount of hospital affiliations it has is pretty impressive. On top of this it has partnerships with other universities as well (to work in their hospitals and vice versa).

4) "Your work, more often than not, consists of paper work etc." Again, I don't know where you get this. You will function as a doctor. It doesn't make sense for the US government to invest tons of money in you for you to be an administrator. You may be thinking of base/hospital commanders- but they're usually higher ranked and have practiced for some time. They're sort of like hospital administrators but that's a part of most (if not all) hospitals! You will be very busy practicing both in a deployed (you're the main medical person, how can you not be busy?) and non-deployed setting (again you're going to be a doctor in the field you practice in). Patient care is absolutely the number one goal of all military physicians. In fact that's one of the benefits of being a military doc, you don't have to mess with insurance, just treat. I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience, but this notion is just plain wrong.

5) Level of training. If you're into rankings, USUHS is pretty decently ranked. If you're into numbers, the board scores and pass rates of the residency programs are avg-above avg for the military. Some programs are, naturally, better than others. For example, Madigan's EM residency board scores are in the 95th percentile...of the country. Walter Reed's surgical residency is one of the largest in the nation. The training will be there. Can you go to a smaller hospital in a smaller town, yes absolutely- but again ALL medical schools will have their graduates disperse into different areas (some will practice in big hospitals, others will run clinics in their home town). To say that a military physician's skills are below that of their civilian colleagues is just wrong.

I'm not going to argue that some physicians have bad experiences, that all physicians are the best in the world, or that the military health system is a perfect one. That wasn't my intent in answering the original question. Somebody wanted to know about USUHS and I gave them as best (and brief) an answer as I could. I couldn't cover all the topics that military medicine entails, which is why I thank you for bringing up things like GMOs and hospital sizes.

Also I don't know where you got the notion that a "vast majority" of military physicians had a poor experience. Most of the docs I've interacted with, all with varying degrees of deployment/experiences/prestige (i.e from residents to former surgeon generals) really enjoyed their military career. It's not without it's challenges and downs, but that's shared by all doctors. A lot leave after their commitment, that's mostly because of family situations/better pay prospects. That said a lot also come back because they like the military structure better. Again, it's not for everyone, but to say that "the vast majority" have poor experiences is baseless and anecdotal. If your sources are simply stories here and there, consider that be careful as passing that as "a vast majority." The military health system is one of the largest health systems in the U.S and in the world.

I'm gonna quote/ echo what someone else said earlier: "being in the military is as much a calling as medicine is." If you come in because you want to serve, you're experience will probably be a lot better.

I hope this further clarified things!
 
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@myleftorpatientleft? I personally know 4 current IM residents who signed up for the army and all did GMOs prior to residency. They all referred to them as GMOs, and none of them were fans. n=4, but none the less...
 
@myleftorpatientleft? I personally know 4 current IM residents who signed up for the army and all did GMOs prior to residency. They all referred to them as GMOs, and none of them were fans. n=4, but none the less...

Hey WilburCobb,

A couple of questions: did they go to USUHS? If so did they choose to do GMO- I know you said they weren't fans but did they know they wouldn't like it before the fact- (that's a route you can take); and were they competitive applicants for the specialty they wanted (i.e did they want to do Anesthesiology initially and weren't competitive for the spots)? I ask the second question because doing a GMO can make you more competitive for hard to get specialties. Whether or not the went to USUHS, it could simply be that they didn't match- much like in the civilian world there will be those that don't match.

Another question is when did they graduate? I'm not exactly sure of when the army and air force did their shifts of focusing more on getting their docs through residency. The thought is, "hey we've already put this money in them, why not just spend a little more time and be full-fledged attendings when they deploy."

They could have also become docs when there was a huge demand for army docs (i.e the surge, etc) and not enough supply. In this instance, this is where being in the military can slow one's private goals down. If the army needs you and has paid for you to get the training needed, it will use you. Again, from my understanding the shift has been to pump out attendings and use them, but their instance could have been unique. I'm also not saying this can't be the case again in the future. If the demand for docs outweighs the supply of attendings, they can tap into their residency/newly grad doc pool. For now though, and from recent history, the trend is that for Army/Air Force a huge majority will go straight through. Those that do GMOs probably chose to do it (it's not always a bad thing, you can be a special forces doc, dive doc, flight doc, etc), or did not match (again most will). The Navy is a different story as a good portion will do a GMO(trade-off, prettier locations: San Diego! Hawaii!).

I can try to get the numbers for you with regards to GMO and the different branches, at least for USUHS, but it most likely won't be until after Veterans' day (Holiday + exams).

Hope this helped!
 
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Comparing the large military training hospitals to major university programs is a stretch. They're not bankrupt and dirty community hospitals, and they may be reasonably full service facilities, but they don't hold a candle to major quaternary care academic medical centers for a number of reasons. One can argue the plusses and minuses of training at a behemoth system, but that is a different discussion and will depend on ones specialty and future professional goals. The other argument that is frequently put forth defending these .mil hospitals is that not everyone is competitive to match at Stanford, MGH, Hopkins, etc. and the while that may be true, I would not want to limit myself and it is really impossible to predict your success in medical school until you're already there. Many people barely squeak into great schools and end up killing the competition and half the class comes in thinking they are the next Ben Carson and end up in the bottom half of the class.
 
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Hey WilburCobb,

A couple of questions: did they go to USUHS? If so did they choose to do GMO- I know you said they weren't fans but did they know they wouldn't like it before the fact- (that's a route you can take); and were they competitive applicants for the specialty they wanted (i.e did they want to do Anesthesiology initially and weren't competitive for the spots)? I ask the second question because doing a GMO can make you more competitive for hard to get specialties. Whether or not the went to USUHS, it could simply be that they didn't match- much like in the civilian world there will be those that don't match.

Another question is when did they graduate? I'm not exactly sure of when the army and air force did their shifts of focusing more on getting their docs through residency. The thought is, "hey we've already put this money in them, why not just spend a little more time and be full-fledged attendings when they deploy."

They could have also become docs when there was a huge demand for army docs (i.e the surge, etc) and not enough supply. In this instance, this is where being in the military can slow one's private goals down. If the army needs you and has paid for you to get the training needed, it will use you. Again, from my understanding the shift has been to pump out attendings and use them, but their instance could have been unique. I'm also not saying this can't be the case again in the future. If the demand for docs outweighs the supply of attendings, they can tap into their residency/newly grad doc pool. For now though, and from recent history, the trend is that for Army/Air Force a huge majority will go straight through. Those that do GMOs probably chose to do it (it's not always a bad thing, you can be a special forces doc, dive doc, flight doc, etc), or did not match (again most will). The Navy is a different story as a good portion will do a GMO(trade-off, prettier locations: San Diego! Hawaii!).

I can try to get the numbers for you with regards to GMO and the different branches, at least for USUHS, but it most likely won't be until after Veterans' day (Holiday + exams).

Hope this helped!
None of them went to USHSU, they all signed up while in med school. They've all said they want to do straight outpatient IM, so they weren't aiming for competitive spots. The oldest one is a PGY-3
 
Comparing the large military training hospitals to major university programs is a stretch. They're not bankrupt and dirty community hospitals, and they may be reasonably full service facilities, but they don't hold a candle to major quaternary care academic medical centers for a number of reasons. One can argue the plusses and minuses of training at a behemoth system, but that is a different discussion and will depend on ones specialty and future professional goals. The other argument that is frequently put forth defending these .mil hospitals is that not everyone is competitive to match at Stanford, MGH, Hopkins, etc. and the while that may be true, I would not want to limit myself and it is really impossible to predict your success in medical school until you're already there. Many people barely squeak into great schools and end up killing the competition and half the class comes in thinking they are the next Ben Carson and end up in the bottom half of the class.

Haha...
 
Comparing the large military training hospitals to major university programs is a stretch. They're not bankrupt and dirty community hospitals, and they may be reasonably full service facilities, but they don't hold a candle to major quaternary care academic medical centers for a number of reasons. One can argue the plusses and minuses of training at a behemoth system, but that is a different discussion and will depend on ones specialty and future professional goals. The other argument that is frequently put forth defending these .mil hospitals is that not everyone is competitive to match at Stanford, MGH, Hopkins, etc. and the while that may be true, I would not want to limit myself and it is really impossible to predict your success in medical school until you're already there. Many people barely squeak into great schools and end up killing the competition and half the class comes in thinking they are the next Ben Carson and end up in the bottom half of the class.

Thanks for the response Sir, and thank you for your service. Thank you, also for clarifying the point about sign-on bonuses- it's good to have these issues clarified by those knowledgeable on the situation- and my knowledge on that topic is incomplete at best (which is why I didn't take it up haha).

I agree, it is a stretch to compare the military health system to the Harvards, Hopkins, UCSFs or the Stanfords of the world, but I won't sell their programs short either. I also won't sell the physicians at these facilities short- they are impressive. Are they all Ben Carson's or DeBakey's? No- but we do have people like Dr. DeFries who worked with Debakey and did the first artificial heart transplant, on staff here at USUHS. Walter Reed and SAMC are very impressive medical facilities. Madigan's numbers are also pretty impressive. I don't claim to know all the hospitals and how good all the programs are- I'm about to find out as I do my rotations around the country. In general, it seems like the sentiment is that the other teaching hospitals are solid to super solid hospitals with some teaching hospitals being the "gems" of the system. Are they all going to be like the Brigham? Again no, but the same can be said for all of the other civilian programs out there. How many schools can match Partners Health (Harvard's system for those that don't know) or New York Presbyterian (Columbia and Cornell combined)? Are some hospitals going to be not as good as the others? Absolutely. Are some physicians not going to be better than others? Yes. Like any medical system you will have those more driven than others. Those more gifted than others. You'll have those who hated their time, and those that absolutely loved their experience.

What I was going for when I brought up Harvard, was that USUHS students get a relatively unique experience to go do their clerkships in a number of such major facilities around the country- something that few schools can rival/ beat. Are Harvard's/Hopkins'/etc facilities more impressive? Yes. However, we USUHS students get to do our rotations at facilities that are still impressive and all around the country (for those wondering, yes we get to go to more than one. We get to go to several actually)- from Hawaii to Washington State to Florida (and again they may not rival even top 25/30 university hospitals individually, but for their distribution, number, and quality- our clerkship training as medical students is pretty darn good).
 
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Many people barely squeak into great schools and end up killing the competition and half the class comes in thinking they are the next Ben Carson and end up in the bottom half of the class.
TheBuffOP, the next Dr.Q? :smuggrin:
 
My advice would be to go into the military becasue you want to serve, or because you want that particular experience, but not for the scholarship money.

1. Overall, the money you save on tuition, or get in stipends, pensions, signing bonuses, etc, will probably not equal the salary you're giving up in private practice. Remember, the years you give up to the military will take away your highest paying years; you will have a shorter career in private practice, so fewer of the higher paying years at the end.

2. You ARE at some risk of being killed, injured, or captured. A physician was among the marines killed in Beirut in the 1980's when the marine barracks was blown up, and at least one physician, a woman, was injured and captured in Iraq when her helicopter was shot down. ( I don't know if this was the first or second Iraq war, but it was early in that conflict) Of course, there may be others. So, don't assume that you will be safely behind lines.

3. Risk of being called up from the reserves: My friend resigned his comission, giving up his pension, because he didn't want the risk of being called up from the "ready reserves" for decades. (perhaps someone with actual military experience can elaborate or explain this better.) Being called up for active duty may not seem like such a big burden to you as a student, but once you have a house with a mortgage that has to be paid, a family, children, and more important, a business that needs you to be there (ie your practice) or it will disintegrate, being called up to active duty can be a tragedy for your family and your livelihood. Itakes years to build a practice, hire the right staff, establish referral patterns. Then you get called up to serve for 6 or 12 months, and when you return, you find that your staff have all found new jobs, and your patients all have new doctors. And they may not want to go back to you, because you may have to disappear again.

4. Once you have taken the scholarship, there is great temptation to stay in longer to get a bigger pension. I'm sure I'll be getting the details wrong here, but as a colleague told me, you get credit for the time you're in med school and residency, plus you owe them some time that you have to serve to pay back the scholarship. At that point, you will want to stay in a few more years to qualify for a bigger pension. By then, you will be halfway through your productive years. There is nothing wrong with that, but you should be aware of the choices you will need to make before you start, rather than being surprised later. There's a reason why they have the incentive structure set up the way it is. There's a great temptation to just stay in for your entire career. So look into the entire career pathway before you start.
 
1. True
2. Also true.
3. This can be a big problem. And if you're an independent contractor, there may be no job waiting for you upon your return. Not to mention your AD pay will be a fraction of your civilian pay, so you have to plan for that possibility. You won't be getting a pro rated share of the physician specialty bonuses, etc. either. Going from $20-50k/month to 80k a year during a deployment can put a dent in the savings unless you have prepared long in advance.
4. To qualify for a military pension, which is only based on your base pay by rank BTW (excluding all of your physician and specialty bonuses), you have to serve 20 years. Those 20 years can be in a combination of active duty and the reserve, but it's a minimum of 20 years. Some believe that the medical benefits are a significant reason to stay in and value them at about $1M. However, if you believe that universal healthcare is coming, as I do (30 years from now when you'll be using this benefit), it's value is significantly decreased.
 
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That's what the reserves are mostly for. You can get called to temporarily stay at a base to cover another military doc who is on deployment or get a deployment date. If I were to end up doing PP, I doubt I would end up joining the military.

From the military medicine documentaries I have seen about Afghanistan, docs stay inside a huge base and the thing that might get to you emotionally is seeing young guys losing limbs, but it's not like you won't see tragedies back in the states.

Just keep in mind depending on your branch and whether you are reserve vs active, your hospital will either be a small collection of easily decimated tents or a large collection of easily decimated tents with some easily decimated metal boxes attached to it.
 
2. You ARE at some risk of being killed, injured, or captured. A physician was among the marines killed in Beirut in the 1980's when the marine barracks was blown up, and at least one physician, a woman, was injured and captured in Iraq when her helicopter was shot down. ( I don't know if this was the first or second Iraq war, but it was early in that conflict) Of course, there may be others. So, don't assume that you will be safely behind lines.

There are more than those you mentioned.

If we can't guarantee the safety of our Generals in war, we certainly can't guarantee the safety of physicians or, if our conflicts down the road are with larger forces with advanced war fighting technology, the safety of field hospitals.

I've heard medical officers tell stories of needing every guy on the wall with a weapon in Afghanistan. If the enemy overtakes your big, safe base of operations, they won't care if you're a physician. Maybe there will be a time when the right thing to do as a doc is surrender and look after your captured wounded, but as things stand now, the enemy beheads journalists. Surrender is not recommended.
 
Just keep in mind depending on your branch and whether you are reserve vs active, your hospital will either be a small collection of easily decimated tents or a large collection of easily decimated tents with some easily decimated metal boxes attached to it.
I heard the US Navy has really nice hospitals and the US Army and US Air force have crappy locations. IDK:shrug:
 
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