Can Ted Cruz really make 10% flat tax for everyone work, without destroying the Economy?

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Pooh & Annie said:
The founders probably didn't want the country to collapse economically as 20% of the country amassed 80% of its wealth, pushing the middle class into poverty. (Of course you and I don't know this because big business and industry didn't exist in the US at that time, and the founders couldn't have foreseen multi-billionaires getting multi-million dollar severance packages after taking their businesses into the toilet).

This Tytler character sounds like an idiot. You do realize that the average Bernie voter is educated and middle class? Poor people are voting for Hillary, Trump, or Cruz.

I don't know if it's a majority, but a LOT of Americans vote based on what they THINK will help the country, not on what puts more money in their own wallet.
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Lots of physicians, rich, educated are also voting Trump, so I'd say your statement is just an assumption. Things may change at some point, but it's not just the poor and uneducated.
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Doctor4Life1769 said:
Lots of physicians, rich, educated are also voting Trump, so I'd say your statement is just an assumption. Things may change at some point, but it's not just the poor and uneducated.
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These rich physicians you mentioned are the proof that no matter how many years you go to school you can still be ignorant! But they are smarter than those who are voting for a Cruz who decided to become president after God spoke to his wife!!!
 
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BLADEMDA said:
That stuff goes on with both sides but more so with the Dems. As corrupt as the Republicans are (and they are) the elite Democrats are even more so because they pretend to be for the poor and the minorities while the leadership is clearly in bed with big business and Wall Street. That's why "the Bern' has caught on because he is a true socialist not like the others who want to get rich through Crony Capitalism.

If you want Socialism Bernie is your man.
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Agree. But Obama is sitting president.
 
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Pooh & Annie said:
I see. Bernie's attacks on lobbying, too big to fail, corporate welfare, and superPACs, in YOUR interpretation, mean that he wants to increase multi-national payoffs and lobbying, lessen large corporation taxes, and more inequality and crony capitalism. Those are pretty much the opposite of everything he has ever said, but I'm certainly no mind reader.
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His voting record contradicts this.
 
Pooh & Annie said:
Thus is kind of confusing. Are you saying there's a movement somewhere arguing that people should have free cars and houses without working? Please give your reference. If your referring to social programs that support the poor, you are probably aware that most poor/lower economic class people work or have heads of households that work. Even then, no one is arguing they should get a free house or car.

All REASONABLE people agree with the lobbying and corporate welfare stuff.

And which private industry is it that is or has ever provided adequate social welfare?
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Not sure how to post a video. But anyone can google the lady who thought Obama was going to pay her mortgage when he was elected (and can google her more recent opinions now that all that glitters isn't gold). And she's not in a minority of people who thought they would get "free" stuff. Now it translates to crazy uncle Bernie.

And are these "reasonable" voters the same ones who elected Obama, who promised no lobbyists in his cabinet, then turned around and filled his cabinet and staff with lobbyists?

Ever heard of the Catholic Church? Lutheran social services? Salvation Army? St. Jude? I can keep listing all day, both secular and religious private organizations.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Most Anesthesiologists would pay a top tax rate of 62% and those in California would pay a total of 72%.
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Also known as theft. There is no good reason to force someone in California to pay for anyone else in other states. Especially when they have no say in what those other states do with their money.
 
Random Resident said:
Not sure how to post a video. But anyone can google the lady who thought Obama was going to pay her mortgage when he was elected (and can google her more recent opinions now that all that glitters isn't gold). And she's not in a minority of people who thought they would get "free" stuff. Now it translates to crazy uncle Bernie.

And are these "reasonable" voters the same ones who elected Obama, who promised no lobbyists in his cabinet, then turned around and filled his cabinet and staff with lobbyists?

Ever heard of the Catholic Church? Lutheran social services? Salvation Army? St. Jude? I can keep listing all day, both secular and religious private organizations.
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If one woman from years ago who wanted her mortgage paid is "not in the minority", then you should be able to do better than one woman from years ago.

You're arguing that Churches and the Salvation Army were/are successful in providing the services necessary for the tens of millions of Americans in poverty? If you believe that than it's unlikely that you're open to hearing the facts.
 
Random Resident said:
Not sure how to post a video. But anyone can google the lady who thought Obama was going to pay her mortgage when he was elected (and can google her more recent opinions now that all that glitters isn't gold). And she's not in a minority of people who thought they would get "free" stuff. Now it translates to crazy uncle Bernie.

And are these "reasonable" voters the same ones who elected Obama, who promised no lobbyists in his cabinet, then turned around and filled his cabinet and staff with lobbyists?

Ever heard of the Catholic Church? Lutheran social services? Salvation Army? St. Jude? I can keep listing all day, both secular and religious private organizations.
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Doctor4Life1769 said:
Lots of physicians, rich, educated are also voting Trump, so I'd say your statement is just an assumption. Things may change at some point, but it's not just the poor and uneducated.
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You're completely missing the point. The premise was that democracy will collapse when people realize they can vote for someone who will promise to give them things. Bernie Sanders, in Blade's estimation, promises to give poor people things. Yet Bernie voters are NOT the poor. Poor people are voting for Hillary or republicans.
 
I wish democrats would stop pandering to the lazy.

I wish republicans would stop pandering to the religious fanatics.

I wish libertarians weren't so marginalized.

There's really no good choice to vote for.
 
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Planktonmd said:
These rich physicians you mentioned are the proof that no matter how many years you go to school you can still be ignorant! But they are smarter than those who are voting for a Cruz who decided to become president after God spoke to his wife!!!
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As there are "Anyone but Trump" folks, there are "Anyone but killary" folks, too.
At this point, I believe it'll be Killary vs. whoever the RNC nominates in their brokered convention. Probably Paul Ryan. Democrats easily win.
 
Pooh & Annie said:
You're completely missing the point. The premise was that democracy will collapse when people realize they can vote for someone who will promise to give them things. Bernie Sanders, in Blade's estimation, promises to give poor people things. Yet Bernie voters are NOT the poor. Poor people are voting for Hillary or republicans.
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This is true.
It probably has more to do with the Clinton name and the fact that the Republican candidates (well, namely Trump) speak at a 4th grade level.
 
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BLADEMDA said:
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ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Is this the person you were talking about?! She didn't say Obama was paying for ANYTHING! She said she didn't have to WORRY about her mortgage anymore... Jesus you guys misrepresented that.

She apparently made a dumb mistake like many Americans did during the housing bubble and overextended her credit to predatory mortgage lenders. The economy collapsed as a result. Bush AND Obama used a stimulus and federal spending to soften the blow to individuals and to soften the collapse of the economy. You were not in favor?
 
At this point, I don't know who I will be voting for
I'll see what comes out of the RNC. If it's nothing worthwhile, I'll probably stay home.
I was initially on the Trump train, but not surprising that the train has been a MESS.
Bernie actually looks reasonable, which is a sad situation. I don't think he wins, so it'll be Clinton winning the presidency. Girl power!! "This is my fight song... "
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
As there are "Anyone but Trump" folks, there are "Anyone but killary" folks, too.
At this point, I believe it'll be Killary vs. whoever the RNC nominates in their brokered convention. Probably Paul Ryan. Democrats easily win.
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Paul Ryan? That's more of a hail mary than getting Romney on the ticket again. Short of a plane crashes simultaneously taking out Trump, Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio - i.e. the guys who actually have some delegates from the primaries - there ain't no way he or anyone else is getting the nomination.


The best thing I can say about Bernie Sanders is that he alone appears to be a decent human being. It's hard to get angry at him. I think some of his ideas are crazy, but he's not a disgraceful despicable human like Clinton, Trump, or Cruz.

If not for the kind of Justices he'd put on SCOTUS, I could be content with Sanders as president, if there was a Republican Senate/House to prevent anyone from getting anything done.

Gridlock 2016 is a bumper sticker I'd buy, if I bought bumper stickers.
 
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pgg said:
Paul Ryan? That's more of a hail mary than getting Romney on the ticket again. Short of a plane crashes simultaneously taking out Trump, Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio - i.e. the guys who actually have some delegates from the primaries - there ain't no way he or anyone else is getting the nomination.


The best thing I can say about Bernie Sanders is that he alone appears to be a decent human being. It's hard to get angry at him. I think some of his ideas are crazy, but he's not a disgraceful despicable human like Clinton, Trump, or Cruz.

If not for the kind of Justices he'd put on SCOTUS, I could be content with Sanders as president, if there was a Republican Senate/House to prevent anyone from getting anything done.

Gridlock 2016 is a bumper sticker I'd buy, if I bought bumper stickers.
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Why would they give Romney a third crack at it? He couldn't beat Obama when he probably should have. He would definitely NOT bring out voters. Paul Ryan could, potentially, but Trump fans would probably not show up either way but I imagine they'd be more inclined to consider it with Ryan over Romney.
Paul Ryan is the rising gem and considered future of the Republican Party. He repeatedly "didn't want to be" Speaker of the House, but "reluctantly" took the position with a lot of demands, and got it.
The commercial that Paul Ryan launched? It was perfect.
 
Pooh & Annie said:
If one woman from years ago who wanted her mortgage paid is "not in the minority", then you should be able to do better than one woman from years ago.

You're arguing that Churches and the Salvation Army were/are successful in providing the services necessary for the tens of millions of Americans in poverty? If you believe that than it's unlikely that you're open to hearing the facts.
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Knowing it's much more than churches (who have been around for literally millennia), I sure do believe that. I don't think it's me who can't see the failing entity though, and throwing more cash and indentured servitude at it isn't going to change that
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
At this point, I don't know who I will be voting for
I'll see what comes out of the RNC. If it's nothing worthwhile, I'll probably stay home.
I was initially on the Trump train, but not surprising that the train has been a MESS.
Bernie actually looks reasonable, which is a sad situation. I don't think he wins, so it'll be Clinton winning the presidency. Girl power!! "This is my fight song... "
Click to expand...

Having a vagina is not my number one priority for whom I will vote for. Sadly, too many will use this as a reason.
 
Pooh & Annie said:
ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Is this the person you were talking about?! She didn't say Obama was paying for ANYTHING! She said she didn't have to WORRY about her mortgage anymore... Jesus you guys misrepresented that.
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Except that's exactly what she meant. Here she is with a change of heart. She doesn't deny anything.
[youtube][/youtube]
 
Pooh & Annie said:
Thus is kind of confusing. Are you saying there's a movement somewhere arguing that people should have free cars and houses without working? Please give your reference. If your referring to social programs that support the poor, you are probably aware that most poor/lower economic class people work or have heads of households that work. Even then, no one is arguing they should get a free house or car.

All REASONABLE people agree with the lobbying and corporate welfare stuff.

And which private industry is it that is or has ever provided adequate social welfare?
Click to expand...

There may not be a movement for cars and houses but there certainly is one for college and healthcare. It's already happened for other welfare programs which continue to be expanded.

Here's the problem - we keep expanding social welfare programs and it's not helping and it's extremely wasteful. The "disability" rate in this country has skyrocketed. The number of people on foodstamps and medicaid continues to rise.

The answer is not raising taxes, redistributing more and more welfare programs. The answer is incentivizing work and punishing bad choices.

The only thing I am certain of is that if the government takes a hundred more dollars out of my paycheck they will waste 90 cents of it. And they will never stop taking that money out again.


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If anyone actually bothers to crunch the numbers, an 18-20% flat tax is what necessary. A 10% tax is just appealing to the working middle class. Gotta love politics


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looks like in addition to the 10% flat tax he's also proposing a 16% VAT. At least that's closer to producing enough revenue, but it still squeezes the poor and cuts taxes on the rich, especially the very rich (0.1%). what's wrong with people?
 
nolagas said:
looks like in addition to the 10% flat tax he's also proposing a 16% VAT. At least that's closer to producing enough revenue, but it still squeezes the poor and cuts taxes on the rich, especially the very rich (0.1%). what's wrong with people?
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That's what happens when lobbying and private electoral contributions are legal (instead of each candidate getting the same amount of public money). They have to pander to their sponsors. In this country, congresspeople spend 40% of their time asking for money.

The top 1% of Americans own 34.5% of the national wealth, and the next 19% own 50.5%. If we were to consider individual and corporate political sponsorship, I expect the top 1% to contribute 80+%.
 
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FFP said:
That's what happens when lobbying and private electoral contributions are legal (instead of each candidate getting the same amount of public money). They have to pander to their sponsors. In this country, congresspeople spend 40% of their time asking for money.

The top 1% of Americans own 34.5% of the national wealth, and the next 19% own 50.5%. If we were to consider individual and corporate political sponsorship, I expect the top 1% to contribute 80+%.
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You're sounding like Bernie. Just missing the "enough is enough" part.
 
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Chloroform4Life said:
You're sounding like Bernie. Just missing the "enough is enough" part.
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That's funny, because I am mostly moderate libertarian in my views (socially tolerant, fiscally responsible). I would never vote for Bernie (likeable, but too extreme for my taste), except to avoid a bigger catastrophe.

Let's just say that I have seen more political systems than the average American, so certain things seem deja vu. In politics, one should always follow the money.
 
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FFP said:
That's funny, because I am mostly moderate libertarian in my views (socially tolerant, fiscally responsible). I would never vote for Bernie (likeable, but too extreme for my taste), except to avoid a bigger catastrophe.

Let's just say that I have seen more political systems than the average American, so certain things seem deja vu. In politics, one should always follow the money.
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TBH, that rule doesn't just apply to politics.
 
deltamed said:
There may not be a movement for cars and houses but there certainly is one for college and healthcare. It's already happened for other welfare programs which continue to be expanded.

Here's the problem - we keep expanding social welfare programs and it's not helping and it's extremely wasteful. The "disability" rate in this country has skyrocketed. The number of people on foodstamps and medicaid continues to rise.

The answer is not raising taxes, redistributing more and more welfare programs. The answer is incentivizing work and punishing bad choices.

The only thing I am certain of is that if the government takes a hundred more dollars out of my paycheck they will waste 90 cents of it. And they will never stop taking that money out again.


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I think healthcare should be state funded. A lot of people do. I don't think college should necessarily be free, but it should be affordable.

There is definitely waste, but most social programs have actually been very successful. I'm not sure how you decided they "aren't helping." Many, many families would disagree.

Disability awards have fallen every year for 5 years. Between 600k to 1 mil people get awards every year. That hasn't changed in over 20 years, despite the population increase. Last year there were 775k awards, the fewest since 2002.

When you say that the answer is "incentivizing work", you do know that the vast majority of people on social programs do work?

Wealth in the country is to a large degree finite, and lobbyists will do EVERYTHING in their power to ensure that it stays in the hands of the rich and large corporations. They don't make money lobbying for the poor. If you think Washington is rigged in favor of the poor, you need to do some reading.
 
State-subsidized and state-controlled are two different things. We are approaching the latter in this country.

I don't know why many people think that a single-payer socialist system would be better than the free healthcare market that existed before health insurance companies, JCAHO, and all the other blood-sucking bureaucrats and middlemen. What we need is less government, not more. State-run healthcare sucks all around the world. I myself ran away from working in such a system.

A healthy, free and fragmented market of small hospitals and independent professionals (not today's oligopolies, not today's middlemen and bean counters, not today's employed physicians) would lead to healthy competition and better quality at lower prices. Just look at what fragmentation did to the cell phone companies or to VoIP.

All the government has to do is to keep the market truly free. No pork, no playing favorites, no big corporations, nothing that reminds of a third-world corrupt country. Just keeping an equal playing field, and forcing everybody to post their prices for every single procedure code online. If it's not posted, you cannot bill for it. If the patient does not agree to a procedure, you cannot do it. Then let the best men win, with subsidies for the poor. The referee should not have favorites.

Healthcare is too personal to be an industry. I am not buying a product; I am paying for a service. Healthcare should be and feel like small business. Big corporations are not good at services; they try to package everything like a product. The patient-doctor relationship is not a product, it's a personalized service. Except for some minor things, it needs to be and feel personal, something no assembly-lane corporate drone will do.
 
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Pooh & Annie said:
I think healthcare should be state funded. A lot of people do. I don't think college should necessarily be free, but it should be affordable.

There is definitely waste, but most social programs have actually been very successful. I'm not sure how you decided they "aren't helping." Many, many families would disagree.

Disability awards have fallen every year for 5 years. Between 600k to 1 mil people get awards every year. That hasn't changed in over 20 years, despite the population increase. Last year there were 775k awards, the fewest since 2002.

When you say that the answer is "incentivizing work", you do know that the vast majority of people on social programs do work?

Wealth in the country is to a large degree finite, and lobbyists will do EVERYTHING in their power to ensure that it stays in the hands of the rich and large corporations. They don't make money lobbying for the poor. If you think Washington is rigged in favor of the poor, you need to do some reading.
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I'm impressed that you've been able to remain optimistic (especially as a physician) that most people in poverty are hard working and make good choices. And that you think government handouts are helping them instead of entrenching their poverty.... I just don't believe it and every time I see a patient with an unbelievable "disability" or one on medicaid with 2 iphones and expensive shoes it just affirms my beliefs.




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I agree. We tend to give them free fish, instead of teaching them how to fish.
 
FFP said:
I agree. We tend to give them free fish, instead of teaching them how to fish.
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Yes, let's expand vocational training programs and make education affordable. Unfortunately in a lot of places they aren't available, and a lot of people who work and have families don't have the time for further education.
As far as me being optimistic, I'm just going by the numbers. Anecdotes are interesting and can definitely color your opinion, but they don't represent overall reality.
 
Providing essentials like food, shelter, healthcare, and education to every citizen is about preserving human dignity and it should be a given in advanced societies where humans are valued and dignified regardless of their contribution to the society.
It's hypocritical to claim being advanced or civilized while we have people dying because they can't afford health care!
 
Pooh & Annie said:
Yes, let's expand vocational training programs and make education affordable. Unfortunately in a lot of places they aren't available, and a lot of people who work and have families don't have the time for further education.
As far as me being optimistic, I'm just going by the numbers. Anecdotes are interesting and can definitely color your opinion, but they don't represent overall reality.
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I go by numbers too. And no social program ever helped put our economy in the black, not even the children's fairytale "FDR and the New Deal".

I agree with promoting vocational education. I agree with making college cheaper. But the root cause of why these things are so expensive has to do with govt involvement in the first place.
 
Social programs are not about putting our economy in the black. Wrong metric, this could explain your consistent disappointment.
 
Deepstate said:
Social programs are not about putting our economy in the black. Wrong metric, this could explain your consistent disappointment.
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They shouldn't consistently be fiscal drains either. Nor should they actually keep people from success. I think the metrics I judge them by are appropriate.
 
Does WIC ever generate revenue? Medicare? Every govt program disbursed money. Let us be clear government expenditures do not generate revenue, nor are they ment to. Definitely the wrong metric.
 
Random Resident said:
I go by numbers too. And no social program ever helped put our economy in the black, not even the children's fairytale "FDR and the New Deal".
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I don't even know what to say about the "in the black" stuff. That's just- weirdly misinformed.

As for the New Deal- much of the country's infrastructure was built by American workers as a result of its public works. Even Trump has said part of making this country "great again" is spending money so we have first class roads, airports, and public transit. Maybe you don't use interstates and bridges though, I don't know.
Social security, the SEC, FDIC, federal housing administration. All still strong and popular 80 years later. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of dollars that supported starving homeless families, helping soften the effects of the depression.

You have a right to hate the American government and the people who cost you money. But if your hatred distorts your understanding of American history, it makes it impossible to accurately determine what current policies and proposals might or might not be effective. This is the biggest reason I hate lying politicians, because if they aren't honest with facts they won't know what is actually necessary and waste will only get worse.
 
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